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On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote:
Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
There is no Starcraft equivalent since there is really no real "season". In other sports, suspending for half a season is a heavy punishment because of all the lost pay (I assume you are not paid when you are suspended, correct me if Im wrong) and other perks. In Starcraft, there is really no such thing since there are rarely big money tourneys.
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote:
And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants). Ladder abuse does not provide an inherent advantage over opponents in-game, and so a person who wins the TSL even while abusing would still "deserve" it in the sense that they were the best player in the tournament. Meanwhile, consider steroids, which artificially improve a player's ability and provide an inherent advantage against other players. If a person taking steroids wins a sport tournament or breaks a record, then it was not his skill that did it--it was the artificial improvement from his drugs.
If a person abuses the ladder, he has the advantage over ALL ladder participants. How can you even think that they would "deserve" it if they win? They shouldn't be there in the first place, so why would they deserve it? They deserve it just because they were not caught?
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote:
Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?"
Lol, for the money of course
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those are reasonable punishments considering they weren't announced beforehand
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Aren't Juanchi and Juanjo just in trouble for being from the same country and playing eeachother 3 times? Were the games proven to be one sided?
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On December 22 2009 05:21 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote:
I was expecting some new mechanism to punish cheaters well into future games (SC2). No offense to TL, but the only event worthwhile to the people punished was TSL, and no one knows when the next TSL will take place -- if ever. I doubt Yosh cares if he's banned from TL Attack or TL arena. Liquidibition had money involved, but those events have stopped too.
In essence the cheaters were punished with removal from TSL2. That's great and severe, but we knew that a couple of weeks ago. I was expecting something harsher, but in practice, I don't think this will change much. The only real thing we can punish them with is DQ from TSL3 and other TL events. I strongly disagree with the idea that it won't change anything. I think it'll greatly influence behavior in the next TSL should we have it. Plus, even if it doesn't change behavior, its better to have such a punishment than not, correct?
Yeah, it's the only real thing you can do; he's saying that it's not really significant.
If it doesn't deter anybody (assuming he's right that it's not a significant punishment [and I'm not sure I disagree/agree]), and the priority is to have good quality games, then no, all a punishment does is take away quality players and games away from the TSL.
On December 22 2009 05:21 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote:
Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2. TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it. When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).
If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.
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Dominican Republic13 Posts
UUUaaaa UUUAaaaa UUUaaa.... YOU LOSE....
lolzzz
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Hmmm I woulda thought group 2 would get the same penalty as group 1 imo. Cheating is the same no matter how big or small it is.
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Can you also ban them until they issue some kind of apology or statement? I want to hear what Yosh and others have to say and why he cheated before you let him back in. Finally, I think you should reward F91 for actually admitting abuse by making his ban less stringent (I don't know how you do this, but you should reward him for actually admitting the abuse, unlike the others)
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Germany2896 Posts
SOB_Maj_Brian:
A forced apology is worth nothing imo.
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funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
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not even a perm ban..?
clazzi better get unbanned soon then
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Braavos36399 Posts
On December 22 2009 05:34 intotherainx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 05:21 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote:
I was expecting some new mechanism to punish cheaters well into future games (SC2). No offense to TL, but the only event worthwhile to the people punished was TSL, and no one knows when the next TSL will take place -- if ever. I doubt Yosh cares if he's banned from TL Attack or TL arena. Liquidibition had money involved, but those events have stopped too.
In essence the cheaters were punished with removal from TSL2. That's great and severe, but we knew that a couple of weeks ago. I was expecting something harsher, but in practice, I don't think this will change much. The only real thing we can punish them with is DQ from TSL3 and other TL events. I strongly disagree with the idea that it won't change anything. I think it'll greatly influence behavior in the next TSL should we have it. Plus, even if it doesn't change behavior, its better to have such a punishment than not, correct? Yeah, it's the only real thing you can do; he's saying that it's not really significant. If it doesn't deter anybody (assuming he's right that it's not a significant punishment [and I'm not sure I disagree/agree]), and the priority is to have good quality games, then no, all a punishment does is take away quality players and games away from the TSL.
The priority is what the organizers and sponsors want the priority to be. I think any major tournament would easily subtract a few players, even top ones, if it meant that their league wasn't fair or viewed as dirty. Regardless, this is a decision we made: that the added value of these players was simply not worth sacrificing the integrity of our tournament. You seem to completely ignore that a reputation of cheating / dirty players in a tournament actually negatively impacts viewers and sponsorship too. Plus, there are larger considerations. The SC community is going to be a large part of the SC2 community -- probably the core part. If we don't take steps to change this sort of behavior now, its going to continue forever. Players wont magically stop abusing because of SC2.
I don't think you realize how much cheating hurts competitions. One cheater here, there, probably won't make a huge impact. But once a culture of cheating is established, and everyone does it, then you have a competition that can't exist. Games like Starcraft are fun to watch because you do not know the outcome because the competition is fair and honest. If the priority was to sacrifice everything for good quality games, we'd rig it so the best two players got to the finals, and have them script out five 50 minute games that always came down to the final elimination. Would people watch that? No, because its completely dishonest and against the spirit of competition. People watch sports because of fair competition. Sacrificing that aspect of it will hurt you.
Thats why every major sports league punishes people very harshly for any conduct that would make fans or viewers think the sport / league has a reputation for being dishonest or fixed or dirty. All it takes is one player to "abuse his way to win" and all of a sudden TSL is a dirty tournament where abusers are allowed to prosper and there's no honest competition. Are you really willing to trade all this for a few games that may be higher quality? It's an easy decision for anyone that reasonably looks at the situation: you simply cannot have even a tiny bit of tainted cheating in your league.
Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 05:21 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote:
Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2. TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it. When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard. If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).
Perhaps. But if I recall correctly, there was a company overseas that started by running small tournaments and slowly grew, and "major corporations" sponsored "big time events" and that company didn't lose control. I think they were called OnGameNet. I'm not saying we're the next OGN. But if you were a large corporation looking to sponsor an SC2 tournament, wouldn't you look for a site/staff who ran large BW tournaments in the past? You seem very sure that we will be "left in the dust" when the SC2 tournament scene hasn't even started yet.
If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.
I don't understand what you are saying -- are you suggesting we simply give up? I don't think anyone is delusional about how much competition there will be among websites in SC2. But to have such a pessimistic attitude like "we have no chance unless the game is not a big hit" is basically resigning yourself to failing before you even try. How can you succeed at anything with this sort of attitude?
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On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote:
funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
the rules were set up before TSL and been written.
i hope other tournaments will copy/paste the rules and kick cheaters ass like tl crew does.
hot_bid fan #1
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Braavos36399 Posts
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote:
funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
I think all the sites can agree that abusing leagues is not acceptable. As we've stated in the OP, we will be monitoring cheating incidents from non-TL tournaments as well, and player conduct there will impact their eligibility in TL events.
As for a standard set of rules, I think that's a great goal.
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Norway28786 Posts
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 01:27 RaGe wrote:On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote:
Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out. In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions. I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here. edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though. Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
everyone outside usa thinks it's absolutely laughable how insignificant the punishments for performance enhancing drugs are in usa. in american sports it is essentially really, really beneficial to use them and get banned for a short period of time because the benefits you get will still be present after your suspension expires.
in cross country skiing punishments are significantly tougher.
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Good, I hope this mentality is around for SC2 (since there are bound to be many more cheaters there with an influx of new blood). It is a shame that talented players had resorted to this, but better to learn a hard lesson now then an even harder one in the future.
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banning them from tsl3, punishment seem too severe. how about a -1.5k point deduction players rank at end of tsl3.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On December 22 2009 06:36 Stone[MB] wrote:
banning them from tsl3, punishment seem too severe. how about a -3k point deduction instead.
You aren't getting it. Why would you give a cheater a chance into a tournament? It makes no sense.
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EPT
