• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:16
CEST 00:16
KST 07:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier3Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League49Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.164Rollback Netcode in Brood War145
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins Server Blocker SCII needs to put more weight on strategy and tact
Tourneys
ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 548 Shining Bright The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train
Brood War
General
Do we even care about balance? SOOP Announces New Women's Monthly Tournament [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos BW General Discussion Rollback Netcode in Brood War
Tourneys
[ASL22] Grand Finals [$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Women's StarCraft] Tier 8 CK 2026-10-20 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Dawn of War IV Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Chess Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
How Much Genes Contribute to…
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9929 users

[TSL] TL Punishes Cheaters - Page 16

Forum Index > News
309 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 14 15 16 All
Beardfish
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States525 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-24 21:31:03
December 24 2009 21:30 GMT
#301
Good work. Unfortunately in the real world cheating and abusing will take place no matter what precautions are taken - but HARSH consequences will certainly make a person second guess themselves before they are about to do something that breaks the rules.
intotherainx
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States504 Posts
December 24 2009 22:55 GMT
#302
On December 23 2009 07:51 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2009 04:11 intotherainx wrote:
On December 22 2009 06:23 Hot_Bid wrote:
On December 22 2009 05:34 intotherainx wrote:
On December 22 2009 05:21 Hot_Bid wrote:
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote:
Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.

TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.

TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.

When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.


If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).

Perhaps. But if I recall correctly, there was a company overseas that started by running small tournaments and slowly grew, and "major corporations" sponsored "big time events" and that company didn't lose control. I think they were called OnGameNet. I'm not saying we're the next OGN. But if you were a large corporation looking to sponsor an SC2 tournament, wouldn't you look for a site/staff who ran large BW tournaments in the past? You seem very sure that we will be "left in the dust" when the SC2 tournament scene hasn't even started yet.

If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.

I don't understand what you are saying -- are you suggesting we simply give up? I don't think anyone is delusional about how much competition there will be among websites in SC2. But to have such a pessimistic attitude like "we have no chance unless the game is not a big hit" is basically resigning yourself to failing before you even try. How can you succeed at anything with this sort of attitude?


I agree with the first part of your post before this, it's just unfortunate that good players decided to cheat and remove potentially good matches.

Yes, OGN did have that history. But, if you look at the context, the success of OGN & its ability to remain true to the gamer community rests undeniably on the fortunate coincidence of Korean game-oriented culture and business opportunities. The entire population in Korea is aware of Starcraft, PC cafes are on virtually every block of Seoul, and in dense areas with 3 or 4 on the same street, they still thrive. All the scene needed was money, some good marketing, fantastic players, and that was enough for big companies like Coca-cola to make a move.

Here? The scene is vastly different. Computer games in general are somewhat stigmatized as nerdy or alternative, and even beyond that, the focus lies on consoles, and particularly strong on FPSes. Further diminishing RTS' marketability is the learning curve that viewers face. If gaming is to be chosen at all, simple to understand ones are always chosen. CGS:Invitational, and CGS the league is demonstrative of this: off the top of my head, I believe the games were something like CS:Source, DoA4, and some racing game. Simple, action-packed, quick. These were critical factors in DirectTV's move into the gaming community-- and despite all of the attempts to keep up the hype, the project still folded after a few seasons.

Because the gaming community is not enough of an audience in both numbers and diversity (the latter is sufficient only for specific companies, say gaming-related (Razer, and poker because of the high transfer rate from SC) or male-young-adult-related), corporations will have to market the tournament to a wider population. A couple thousand people tuning into Tasteless commentating GomTV is not enough. So, there are compromises. CGS is the prime example of this. CS 1.6 was FAR more competitive than CS:Source due to a few reasons (eg, head size, a few other factors that any dedicated gotfrag.com visitors would know), and the entire community was arguing for 1.6. The problem? Its outdated graphics. CGS didn't make a serious consideration at all about the overwhelming majority's opinion at ALL major CS website communities (whose fanbase is larger than SC); this trend continued when CGS made a match 10 rounds, and starting money $16k (for anyone who doesn't watch, it was basically a unanimous agreement that this led to many flukes, didn't really show skill), and drafted players each season (ruining team chemistry, also thought to be bad). The outraged voices of the CS community never factored into any decision, because CGS knew the community was already a guaranteed audience (and it turns out, it was).

Casting aside ideals and factoring both the history and the realities of Western gaming, big corporations seem unlikely to become involved, and even if they do, TL seems to be facing an extremely difficult if not nearly insurmountable obstacle to significantly influence the introduction of RTS and SC2 into the masses.

So, what I personally believe to be the most realistic outcome is something along the popularity of DOTA, or perhaps Warcraft 3. I think it's unfair to say I'm being pessimistic, and of course I'm aware that an extremely self-defeatist perspective fosters failure. But an overly confident perspective is equally as dangerous. When I said "big hit," I meant along the lines of CS:Source's run. SC2 will probably attract a decent amount of people, and I suspect WCG and other tournaments like ESWC will probably be the largest tournaments. I do believe TL has the potential to run tournaments better than both WCG and ESWC, but yes, as you said, businesses do look for organizations that have ran the most tournaments for large amounts of money, and no, it is not TL. The best route of action is probably to become more active, have more frequent events (not just TSL, smaller events like TL attack, liquibition, etc), and most importantly, try to open our site up to a more general population, as this is the key factor in any gaming-related business move outside Korea.

If TL is successful, then SC2 may look something like the DOTA scene. Though I haven't visited in a while, in addition to leagues (first CAL, then picked up by CEVO, then by national leagues (eg, the strong presence in Russia, and some other European countries)), there may be major LANs where the payoff (running up to 5 digits for first place) is worth flying for and playing in person. TL can realistically be the head of that kind of SC2 scene (which is once again, the most probable), but it still has a lot of work to strengthen itself. I probably won't be here by the time it happens because I'll be starting graduate school, but I wish the staff good luck, and do believe the dream is possible with hard work.

So basically, you're saying SC2 and RTS in general isn't established outside Korea. Also, that TL will have to work hard, run more frequent events, and get more members from the general population. I think just about every single person knows this.

Its not like its some big secret that we have to get more general members and work hard as a staff if we (TL) want to stay competitive when SC2 comes out. It's pretty obvious.


and detailing the conditions in which TL might be successful, and the ones in which TL is very unlikely to do so. and a lot more. nice summary, though.
EvanED
Profile Joined October 2009
United States111 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-25 00:25:14
December 25 2009 00:24 GMT
#303
On December 23 2009 00:37 cz wrote:
So much awful reasoning here from defenders of the cheaters. And by defenders I mean people with below 100 posts who are friends with the cheaters, call themselves lurkers, and make preposterous supporting arguments.

I'd just like to say I'm a lurker with well under 100 posts, and the punishments seem pretty fair to me.
SARS
Profile Joined November 2009
United States25 Posts
December 25 2009 16:04 GMT
#304
On December 22 2009 02:46 MorroW[MB] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2009 02:45 TheAntZ wrote:
On December 22 2009 02:43 Patriot.dlk wrote:
You have my axe!

and my bow

lol i was just gonna type it then scrolled down and saw u did :D


and my keyboard!
Patience is an excuse for laziness
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
December 28 2009 05:49 GMT
#305
On December 25 2009 07:55 intotherainx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2009 07:51 Hot_Bid wrote:
On December 23 2009 04:11 intotherainx wrote:
On December 22 2009 06:23 Hot_Bid wrote:
On December 22 2009 05:34 intotherainx wrote:
On December 22 2009 05:21 Hot_Bid wrote:
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote:
Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.

TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.

TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.

When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.


If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).

Perhaps. But if I recall correctly, there was a company overseas that started by running small tournaments and slowly grew, and "major corporations" sponsored "big time events" and that company didn't lose control. I think they were called OnGameNet. I'm not saying we're the next OGN. But if you were a large corporation looking to sponsor an SC2 tournament, wouldn't you look for a site/staff who ran large BW tournaments in the past? You seem very sure that we will be "left in the dust" when the SC2 tournament scene hasn't even started yet.

If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.

I don't understand what you are saying -- are you suggesting we simply give up? I don't think anyone is delusional about how much competition there will be among websites in SC2. But to have such a pessimistic attitude like "we have no chance unless the game is not a big hit" is basically resigning yourself to failing before you even try. How can you succeed at anything with this sort of attitude?


I agree with the first part of your post before this, it's just unfortunate that good players decided to cheat and remove potentially good matches.

Yes, OGN did have that history. But, if you look at the context, the success of OGN & its ability to remain true to the gamer community rests undeniably on the fortunate coincidence of Korean game-oriented culture and business opportunities. The entire population in Korea is aware of Starcraft, PC cafes are on virtually every block of Seoul, and in dense areas with 3 or 4 on the same street, they still thrive. All the scene needed was money, some good marketing, fantastic players, and that was enough for big companies like Coca-cola to make a move.

Here? The scene is vastly different. Computer games in general are somewhat stigmatized as nerdy or alternative, and even beyond that, the focus lies on consoles, and particularly strong on FPSes. Further diminishing RTS' marketability is the learning curve that viewers face. If gaming is to be chosen at all, simple to understand ones are always chosen. CGS:Invitational, and CGS the league is demonstrative of this: off the top of my head, I believe the games were something like CS:Source, DoA4, and some racing game. Simple, action-packed, quick. These were critical factors in DirectTV's move into the gaming community-- and despite all of the attempts to keep up the hype, the project still folded after a few seasons.

Because the gaming community is not enough of an audience in both numbers and diversity (the latter is sufficient only for specific companies, say gaming-related (Razer, and poker because of the high transfer rate from SC) or male-young-adult-related), corporations will have to market the tournament to a wider population. A couple thousand people tuning into Tasteless commentating GomTV is not enough. So, there are compromises. CGS is the prime example of this. CS 1.6 was FAR more competitive than CS:Source due to a few reasons (eg, head size, a few other factors that any dedicated gotfrag.com visitors would know), and the entire community was arguing for 1.6. The problem? Its outdated graphics. CGS didn't make a serious consideration at all about the overwhelming majority's opinion at ALL major CS website communities (whose fanbase is larger than SC); this trend continued when CGS made a match 10 rounds, and starting money $16k (for anyone who doesn't watch, it was basically a unanimous agreement that this led to many flukes, didn't really show skill), and drafted players each season (ruining team chemistry, also thought to be bad). The outraged voices of the CS community never factored into any decision, because CGS knew the community was already a guaranteed audience (and it turns out, it was).

Casting aside ideals and factoring both the history and the realities of Western gaming, big corporations seem unlikely to become involved, and even if they do, TL seems to be facing an extremely difficult if not nearly insurmountable obstacle to significantly influence the introduction of RTS and SC2 into the masses.

So, what I personally believe to be the most realistic outcome is something along the popularity of DOTA, or perhaps Warcraft 3. I think it's unfair to say I'm being pessimistic, and of course I'm aware that an extremely self-defeatist perspective fosters failure. But an overly confident perspective is equally as dangerous. When I said "big hit," I meant along the lines of CS:Source's run. SC2 will probably attract a decent amount of people, and I suspect WCG and other tournaments like ESWC will probably be the largest tournaments. I do believe TL has the potential to run tournaments better than both WCG and ESWC, but yes, as you said, businesses do look for organizations that have ran the most tournaments for large amounts of money, and no, it is not TL. The best route of action is probably to become more active, have more frequent events (not just TSL, smaller events like TL attack, liquibition, etc), and most importantly, try to open our site up to a more general population, as this is the key factor in any gaming-related business move outside Korea.

If TL is successful, then SC2 may look something like the DOTA scene. Though I haven't visited in a while, in addition to leagues (first CAL, then picked up by CEVO, then by national leagues (eg, the strong presence in Russia, and some other European countries)), there may be major LANs where the payoff (running up to 5 digits for first place) is worth flying for and playing in person. TL can realistically be the head of that kind of SC2 scene (which is once again, the most probable), but it still has a lot of work to strengthen itself. I probably won't be here by the time it happens because I'll be starting graduate school, but I wish the staff good luck, and do believe the dream is possible with hard work.

So basically, you're saying SC2 and RTS in general isn't established outside Korea. Also, that TL will have to work hard, run more frequent events, and get more members from the general population. I think just about every single person knows this.

Its not like its some big secret that we have to get more general members and work hard as a staff if we (TL) want to stay competitive when SC2 comes out. It's pretty obvious.


and detailing the conditions in which TL might be successful, and the ones in which TL is very unlikely to do so. and a lot more. nice summary, though.


More than just getting more members, he also said that we should strive to change the image of a gamer. In America, gamers are viewed as overweight, socially inept geeks that sit at their computers all day in their mother's basement. Although this may be a fitting stereotype for some people in the community, many live successful lives despite or outside of gaming and this kind of image is something we should strive to promote. In Korea, gamers are known and when they appear on programs, the most famous ones are noticed. However, in America, the gaming community is either unknown or reviled in the popular culture and very few gamers, if any, have the name brand recognition of someone like Boxer in Korea or like mewtwoking in the gaming community in general.
Sullifam
Reasonable
Profile Joined September 2010
Ukraine1432 Posts
January 01 2011 09:05 GMT
#306
Is that real Dimaga in that ban list?
{ToT}ColmA
Profile Joined November 2007
Japan3260 Posts
January 01 2011 09:37 GMT
#307
yes
The only virgins in kpop left are the fans
Reasonable
Profile Joined September 2010
Ukraine1432 Posts
January 01 2011 10:43 GMT
#308
What did he do? 6 pool into the right location w/o scouting?
Crawler
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Estonia248 Posts
January 01 2011 10:48 GMT
#309
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146227&currentpage=8#157 Some wintrading
Elizar
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany431 Posts
January 01 2011 23:23 GMT
#310
I totally have to support the decisions done by the TL staff.
Prev 1 14 15 16 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 14m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 94
SpeCial 65
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 646
Artosis 320
ProTech149
Mini 110
Dota 2
syndereN462
League of Legends
Doublelift3814
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1207
Super Smash Bros
PPMD53
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby3981
Trikslyr120
Other Games
summit1g5637
FrodaN695
shahzam470
C9.Mang0259
Pyrionflax179
ToD160
ZombieGrub47
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 65
• musti20045 35
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra350
Other Games
• imaqtpie1130
• Shiphtur588
• WagamamaTV249
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
2h 14m
The PondCast
11h 44m
Kung Fu Cup
12h 44m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 12h
Reynor vs Zoun
Neeb vs Rogue
FEL
3 days
Patches Events
3 days
AI Arena Tournament
3 days
FEL
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 22
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
IPSL Winter 2026-27
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.