For the past 10 years, the Starcraft community has created a culture of passivity towards cheating and abuse. There has been very little enforcement or accountability by tournament organizers, teams, and fans. It seemed as though as long as a player was good at Starcraft, he could get away with anything. It is a shame that such a great community could have such a huge flaw. This culture of leniency and apathy towards cheaters certainly contributed to the large numbers of high level players choosing to abuse in the recent TSL Ladder.
Ladder abuse is just as criminal as hacking. The end result is no different. An abuser is essentially stealing prize money from honest players and robbing the community of a worthwhile competition. TeamLiquid strongly values honest competition and fair play, and we have decided to use our TSL to send a message to the community that these sorts of actions are no longer acceptable.
Current Penalties
These penalties will only be applied for this TSL (see future penalty rules later). Our goals with these penalties are to ensure that the current TSL is as clean and fair as possible, and to deter future players from cheating.
Group 1: Banned from TL events for 12 months AND TSL3 (whenever it is):
Advokate
Dimaga
F91
Juanjo
Mercury
Pomi
Reason
RiboRibo
Sarens
Scan
Vasilisk
Yosh
Group 2: Banned from TL events for 8 months AND TSL3 (whenever it is):
Fraer
HappyZerg
Juachi
Ranged
Tuzer
Group 1 include players who abused and gained from the abuse. Group 2 include players who abused but only to help another player.
Future Penalty Rules
These rules will come into effect after the PokerStrategy.com TSL is over. Our future penalties rules will be stricter, because players now have notice about them.
First time offenders without personal gain will be banned for a minimum of 12 months and the next two TSLs.
First time offenders with personal gain will be banned for a minimum of 18 months and the next two TSLs.
Repeat offenders will be banned for life.
To all players (not just those who abused during this TSL): If you cheat in any way (even in a non-TeamLiquid event), we reserve the right to disqualify you based upon these rules. If you want to participate in TSL3 (or any other TL event), be 100% clean, everywhere.
We urge other web sites, teams, clans, and tournaments to take similar action. The only way this widespread problem can be solved is if we all work together. We applaud GosuGamers for banning all TSL abusers from their events for six months. But it is not enough for just two sites to take a stand against cheating. There should be zero tolerance for cheating from anyone in our community.
A tournament organizer or site administrator who does not take similar action against these players is supporting cheating in their tournament. A clan or national team that does not remove these players from their lineup is sending a message that their clan or country finds it acceptable to have cheaters on their team. This passive tolerance of cheating is not acceptable, and TeamLiquid will not advertise clans, teams, or events that continue to disrespect this game.
We hope that by 2011, these players will work hard toward earning back the trust of the community and become honest competitors again. We also hope that our community as a whole will have a strong anti-cheating reputation.
Thank you to all the fans for their support and to the legitimate players of the PokerStrategy.com TSL for making our tournament possible. With these cheating incidents behind us, we can finally focus on the good parts of the TSL. Get ready for a great tournament!
--TSL Staff
TL events include TSL, Liquibition, TL: Attack!, Progamer Merchandise sales, SC2 related competitions, the PokerStrategy.com raffle, and any community run tournaments or special events.
Our cheating FAQ (partial credit to Korn, PokerStrategy founder and sponsor of this TSL)
"But they didn't need the abuse / hack to qualify..." Results do not matter. Cheating is wrong regardless of who cheats. It negatively impacts the tournament, the fans, and most of all the other honest competitors.
"Cheaters deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long" One of the main reasons cheating has been so rampant is because our community kept giving cheaters more chances with no consequences. Cheaters have nothing to fear. Our goal is not just to punish these specific cheaters, but to send a message that will discourage cheating in the future.
"But they just abused in this tournament" The TSL is the largest foreign StarCraft event outside of WCG. This is like saying "well this track runner only cheated in the Olympics." Also, while this tournament has a large prize pool, it also matters to players and fans in terms of competition and enjoyment. We will not allow our event to be tainted by cheating.
"But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good" While these cheaters may very well be excellent players, they are extremely bad for the StarCraft community. The perception of our game and our community is very important to potential players, fans, and sponsors. We cannot make exceptions simply because a player is skilled.
"A ban from TSL3 seems too harsh" We must ban these cheaters from at least one future TSL. Otherwise, there is not deterrent toward abusing in the current TSL. If a player realizes he probably will not qualify, and the punishment for abuse is DQ from the current TSL, what stops him from abusing? There is no real penalty for him.
But what about your anti-cheating policies for TSL3? We don't beleive that this is the time or place to be discussing what happens in TSL3. Rest assured that all information about anti-cheating measures will be announced once TSL3 begins (whenever that may be). For now, enjoy the elimination stages of the TSL.
This is fair. I was afraid you'd enforce an insta "for life" ban. I wouldn't cry about it, I'd never abuse, but yeah, people learn from their (ever so ridiculous) mistakes.
This seems a bit too lenient, but who am I to question the mods? I'm glad something was done and I hope this deters people from cheating in the future.
Punishment is harsh, but fitting, and leaves no question on TL's stance.
Theoretical question, though: Does this mean that the next Liquibition is at least a year away (until F91's ban expires), or if you guys decided you wanted to host one sooner (though you did say it would be done for awhile), would you find someone else to take his place?
"A ban from TSL3 seems too harsh" We must ban these cheaters from at least one future TSL. Otherwise, there is not deterrent toward abusing in the current TSL. If a player realizes he probably will not qualify, and the punishment for abuse is DQ from the current TSL, what stops him from abusing? There is no real penalty for him.
Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
TeamLiquid for the win! Thanks guys. Been waiting for someone to take a seriously hard line on cheating for a while - and KeSPA's ppp disqualifications don't count.
On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
I don't believe they are banned from the website. Just the events.
On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions.
I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here.
edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though.
For the past 10 years, the Starcraft community has created a culture of passivity towards cheating and abuse. There has been very little enforcement or accountability by tournament organizers, teams, and fans. It seemed as though as long as a player was good at Starcraft, he could get away with anything. It is a shame that such a great community could have such a huge flaw. This culture of leniency and apathy towards cheaters certainly contributed to the large numbers of high level players choosing to abuse in the recent TSL Ladder.
Ladder abuse is just as criminal as hacking. The end result is no different. An abuser is essentially stealing prize money from honest players and robbing the community of a worthwhile competition. TeamLiquid strongly values honest competition and fair play, and we have decided to use our TSL to send a message to the community that these sorts of actions are no longer acceptable.
EXCELLENT I LOVE U TEAMLIQUID! EVERY SINGLE WORD IS MUSIC TO MY EARS
well I hope the cheaters learn from this! With each TSL becoming bigger with more money on the line, sucks for them to miss out on TSL3! Maybe on TSL4 they will not abuse/cheat
On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
To temporary have them exiled as long as the penatly is in effect would be awesome actually haha.
Finally, a strong (and hopefulle united) stand against cheaters. Great job, I for one does not want to see a cheater win a single ICCUP game, yet qualify fo the freakin TSL!
I wonder what exactly is constituted as cheating. Did these players use maphacks etc. or did they trade wins with friends? The former should mean a lifetime ban, zero tolerance. The latter seems to be kind of a grey area, because then dodging could be constituted as cheating aswell.
I have no experience with playing ladders, so forgive me if I just said something extremely stupid.
I would have warned players before the tournament, and if anyone caught, ban them for life, i think this should have been even more appropriate. And this is what we call Zero Tolerance. But anyway it's already ok, hopefully we won't see in the future, "ho it's ok he said he won't do it again"
Yep, hopefully a year and two TSL's change some people views on abusing. Good work TL staff with all their hard work catching the abusers and dealing with them in this manner.
Wow, I applaud the TL staff to finally putting justice and action upon the abusers! Hopefully this can clear up how tourneys really should be and that it's for fun and fair competition rather than winning to get the money. Good job guys!
I was under the impresion that he was separated because of a reasonable doubt. If that is still the case I don't see why he should be banned (although I can see why he should be separated).
When I dl SC from the iccup page Autoreplay didn't work for me due to not having the exe path set on a registry key. Not saying that was his case but doesn't seem so implausible.
I'm surprised to not see perma-bans. I wonder if there was anyone arguing for that?
But, I agree that most people will learn from mistakes and deserve a second chance. Looks pretty fair to me... and what I like most is this really give the tournament that validity it needs.
We really don't need to second guess the results when they come in, because we know the cheaters have been removed and the rules have been strictly applied.
On December 22 2009 00:57 charcute wrote: banned for 12 months is like to ban forever with sc2 comming, hope there will be less hacker in others tournament
This was very well thought out. Good choices by TL mods. I think it's good to give one second chance, so a harsh penalty on the first offense followed by permaban on the second offense is a good balance. (Although I wouldn't have been upset by an immediate permaban on everyone who cheated, I do think this way is a lot better.)
*claps* I always wondered why the community was so lax with cheaters. Hell, with some cheaters who are liked, people actually DEFEND the act! Its insane. I hope this is the start of a new outlook for the community in regards to abuse.
This is a true punishment. I am glad our TL team is showing that we need to show respect specially in events like this.
Kudos to the Team Liquid Crew.
Edit:
On December 22 2009 02:53 Steveh wrote: how can anyone think this ban is harsh when there is thousands of dollars at stake
So true, people tend to forget it just because StarCraft is "just a game" but there is people competing very hard to earn that money. It is not fair to them.
First steps to becoming more professional outside Korea. GJ.
Cheaters should furthermore become more aware that they ruin competition and spoil fun for others. Especially with a prize pool of $20,000+ cheating is disgraceful and malicious. You are not much short of stealing money.
With TSL3 and future events promising to be bigger at TL.net they will probably question themselves whether it was worth it.
On December 22 2009 03:16 Djabanete wrote: This was very well thought out. Good choices by TL mods. I think it's good to give one second chance, so a harsh penalty on the first offense followed by permaban on the second offense is a good balance. (Although I wouldn't have been upset by an immediate permaban on everyone who cheated, I do think this way is a lot better.)
i agree, but not with the rhetoric involving other sites/teams. if these organizations want to ban these players, fine, and that can be encouraged, but the whole idea of "if you dont ban them cause they cheated on our website's tournament, then youre supporting cheating!" repeated multiple times was a bit much.
and lol did you guys just compare yourself to the olympics
Seems that Yosh's 57-0 winning streak may have not really been legitimate. That's a shame.
Anyways, harsh punishments are good. Cheaters won't stop if they have nothing to lose. Good on the TL staff for that. Need to hammer it through that this is a big tournament with a big prize pool and abusing/cheating is a serious offense.
On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions.
I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here.
edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though.
Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants). Ladder abuse does not provide an inherent advantage over opponents in-game, and so a person who wins the TSL even while abusing would still "deserve" it in the sense that they were the best player in the tournament. Meanwhile, consider steroids, which artificially improve a player's ability and provide an inherent advantage against other players. If a person taking steroids wins a sport tournament or breaks a record, then it was not his skill that did it--it was the artificial improvement from his drugs.
That's not to say I think cheating should go unpunished, however. Disqualification from the TSL and a ban from official events for six months seems reasonable to me. But an effective ban from the biggest foreign event for two or three years seems unnecessarily harsh, especially for those players who have proven themselves valuable members of the community (I don't know if any have, but the fact that I recognize several of those names when I don't follow Starcraft all that seriously suggests to me that at least a couple are valuable community members). When you compare the reaction to abuse here to the reaction to greater abuse in a bigger sport (e.g., baseball), the community here seems to revile cheating at a level much higher than the other sport's fans. Honestly it's puzzling to me, I was genuinely shocked at how immediately the community unanimously decided that everyone who abused the TSL ladder (even for just three wins) was absolute trash and the scum of the earth.
I don't mean to be confrontational here, I'm just having a difficult time believing that these decisions are reasonable. Maybe it's because I'm really not that involved in Starcraft, I just follow both the professional and foreign scenes casually. I won't complain about the punishments; I was just surprised at their severity. Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?" When you've got that many people deciding that cheating is the best option for them, I can't help but wonder if an outside force pressured some of the players into doing things they wouldn't do otherwise. As to what that outside force is, beats me. I'm just throwing out considerations.
But anyway, this post has gone on too long. I just wanted to chime in from the point of view of a neutral person who does disagree with the punishment decisions. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a significant number of people feel the same way I do, but just don't say anything because there's nothing to be gained from it. Those who are especially angered by abuse would be more likely to post about it, I think, than those of us who just find it a disappointment. Regardless, I'm glad to see that something was done, even if I disagree with the severity of the action taken. If the TSL, and Starcraft in general, are to be made "legitimate" in the eyes of society as a whole, then cheating does need to be strictly monitored and dealt with. Thanks for putting on the tournament, and I'm really looking forward to it.
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote: Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
. . .
What if one of the 5, 10 or even more people who didn't qualify because of the abusers who qualified in front of them, would have won the entire competition? They didn't qualify because of time constraints and their unwillingness to cheat so they never ended up with a chance to prove themselves because of the other abusers.
Wouldn't you call that unfair? Also, don't forget there are money prizes for more than first place ... if you have 5 or 10 people not qualifying because of the abuse of other players then chances are at least one of them would have earned a cash prize if they had qualified.
Pfft, Yosh is so good, he made it look like he was abusing even though he was playing A-B level players...
I am kidding, of course.
But really surprising that the good players 'abused' (By abused, does it mean they played lower ranked players or such things as their friends gave them free wins?)... This may have been said before but was abusing really necessary for those players like F91, Advokate, and Yosh?
On December 22 2009 04:39 SynC[gm] wrote: Pfft, Yosh is so good, he made it look like he was abusing even though he was playing A-B level players...
I am kidding, of course.
But really surprising that the good players 'abused' (By abused, does it mean they played lower ranked players or such things as their friends gave them free wins?)... This may have been said before but was abusing really necessary for those players like F91, Advokate, and Yosh?
WHATEVER!!!
read the disqualification threads for how they abused, found in the TSL forum on the right-hand side tabs.
Oh yea, btw, since the ladder happened in ICCup and if they abused the TSL ladder, then by doing so they abused the ICCup ladder as well. So did they just get penalized from TL, GosuGamers, AND ICCup?
Nice work, TL. It's good to see abusers get it up the butt, but what do you mean by abusing anyway? Like combat-ex playing D players? (Sorry to bring that up again, but it's the only example I can think of).
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote: Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
. . .
What if one of the 5, 10 or even more people who didn't qualify because of the abusers who qualified in front of them, would have won the entire competition? They didn't qualify because of time constraints and their unwillingness to cheat so they never ended up with a chance to prove themselves because of the other abusers.
Wouldn't you call that unfair? Also, don't forget there are money prizes for more than first place ... if you have 5 or 10 people not qualifying because of the abuse of other players then chances are at least one of them would have earned a cash prize if they had qualified.
This is the entire reason cheating is bad in the first place. If cheating is allowed, you can't guarantee that the person who won the competition would have beaten those whom his cheating allowed him to qualify over. This is less of an issue that it would seem, in my opinion, since someone who just barely qualifies (and thus would be knocked out by a cheater) is extremely unlikely to place high enough to win money, but it is an issue. Like I said, ladder abuse is definitely a form of cheating for which punishment is necessary, since it does have a tangible, negative effect on other players. It's just odd to me that a form of cheating which I find to be much more heinous (providing an inherent in-game advantage over other players, e.g., steroids) has a MUCH lighter punishment in a comparable environment.
On December 22 2009 04:51 Rainbow wrote: Nice work, TL. It's good to see abusers get it up the butt, but what do you mean by abusing anyway? Like combat-ex playing D players? (Sorry to bring that up again, but it's the only example I can think of).
Look in the right side, click the T*SL and find the threads that have info on all the Disqualifications.
Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?" When you've got that many people deciding that cheating is the best option for them, I can't help but wonder if an outside force pressured some of the players into doing things they wouldn't do otherwise. As to what that outside force is, beats me. I'm just throwing out considerations.
The reason so many people cheat is because the community and tournament managers rarely do anything about it, or if they do it's just a slap on the wrist. In other words, the reward>>>>>risk for cheating.
By making such severe punishments, the TSL obviously hopes to change players minds to see risk>>>>>reward instead. This should reduce the numbers of cheaters in future events, which is best for everyone all around.
I was expecting some new mechanism to punish cheaters well into future games (SC2). No offense to TL, but the only event worthwhile to the people punished was TSL, and no one knows when the next TSL will take place -- if ever. I doubt Yosh cares if he's banned from TL Attack or TL arena. Liquidibition had money involved, but those events have stopped too.
In essence the cheaters were punished with removal from TSL2. That's great and severe, but we knew that a couple of weeks ago. I was expecting something harsher, but in practice, I don't think this will change much.
Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants). Ladder abuse does not provide an inherent advantage over opponents in-game, and so a person who wins the TSL even while abusing would still "deserve" it in the sense that they were the best player in the tournament. Meanwhile, consider steroids, which artificially improve a player's ability and provide an inherent advantage against other players. If a person taking steroids wins a sport tournament or breaks a record, then it was not his skill that did it--it was the artificial improvement from his drugs.
That's not to say I think cheating should go unpunished, however. Disqualification from the TSL and a ban from official events for six months seems reasonable to me. But an effective ban from the biggest foreign event for two or three years seems unnecessarily harsh, especially for those players who have proven themselves valuable members of the community (I don't know if any have, but the fact that I recognize several of those names when I don't follow Starcraft all that seriously suggests to me that at least a couple are valuable community members). When you compare the reaction to abuse here to the reaction to greater abuse in a bigger sport (e.g., baseball), the community here seems to revile cheating at a level much higher than the other sport's fans. Honestly it's puzzling to me, I was genuinely shocked at how immediately the community unanimously decided that everyone who abused the TSL ladder (even for just three wins) was absolute trash and the scum of the earth.
I don't mean to be confrontational here, I'm just having a difficult time believing that these decisions are reasonable. Maybe it's because I'm really not that involved in Starcraft, I just follow both the professional and foreign scenes casually. I won't complain about the punishments; I was just surprised at their severity. Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?" When you've got that many people deciding that cheating is the best option for them, I can't help but wonder if an outside force pressured some of the players into doing things they wouldn't do otherwise. As to what that outside force is, beats me. I'm just throwing out considerations.
But anyway, this post has gone on too long. I just wanted to chime in from the point of view of a neutral person who does disagree with the punishment decisions. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a significant number of people feel the same way I do, but just don't say anything because there's nothing to be gained from it. Those who are especially angered by abuse would be more likely to post about it, I think, than those of us who just find it a disappointment. Regardless, I'm glad to see that something was done, even if I disagree with the severity of the action taken. If the TSL, and Starcraft in general, are to be made "legitimate" in the eyes of society as a whole, then cheating does need to be strictly monitored and dealt with. Thanks for putting on the tournament, and I'm really looking forward to it.
In Professional sports there is already a season established. So a suspeneion for 2-3 games is not too long and at most is a 1/4 of a season. With the starcraft, the amount of time between each event is too long in the foreign scene for the ban to be any shorter. A 6 month ban would be almost if not actually meaningless as there might not be a tournament in that amount of time. Also about your view on some "outside force" making 25% of the qualifiers cheat, why was that the first thing that popped into your head? To me that would just mean that cheating has become so pervasive that people do it without even thinking about it. Hopefully the measures taking by TL will make it so future tournaments will not have so many well known players cheating in the top tiers.
On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions.
I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here.
edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though.
Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
The equivalent would be if two baseball players tried to fix games to get one of the teams into the playoffs. If this happened, the league would almost certainly suspend the players for a full season, possibly more. In general if a sport's competitive honesty is tested like this, the leagues usually come down extremely strong on the players -- look at Pete Rose or the NBA referee who both influenced game outcomes.
And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants). Ladder abuse does not provide an inherent advantage over opponents in-game, and so a person who wins the TSL even while abusing would still "deserve" it in the sense that they were the best player in the tournament. Meanwhile, consider steroids, which artificially improve a player's ability and provide an inherent advantage against other players. If a person taking steroids wins a sport tournament or breaks a record, then it was not his skill that did it--it was the artificial improvement from his drugs.
Well, TL and most other sports leagues disagree with this rationale completely. Abuse is just as bad, possibly worse than hacking/performance enhancing drugs. Because an individual case of hacking is completely "cleanable" in the sense that you ban the hacker, and you're done. But abuse actually calls into question the integrity of your entire league, and may make spectators or others question the validity of results. That is infinitely worse than one or two hackers.
That's not to say I think cheating should go unpunished, however. Disqualification from the TSL and a ban from official events for six months seems reasonable to me. But an effective ban from the biggest foreign event for two or three years seems unnecessarily harsh, especially for those players who have proven themselves valuable members of the community (I don't know if any have, but the fact that I recognize several of those names when I don't follow Starcraft all that seriously suggests to me that at least a couple are valuable community members). When you compare the reaction to abuse here to the reaction to greater abuse in a bigger sport (e.g., baseball), the community here seems to revile cheating at a level much higher than the other sport's fans. Honestly it's puzzling to me, I was genuinely shocked at how immediately the community unanimously decided that everyone who abused the TSL ladder (even for just three wins) was absolute trash and the scum of the earth.
In our community cheating is the cardinal sin. You really can't do anything worse. There is definitely a difference between the TSL situation and the major sports like baseball. Their infrastructure to counter cheating is in place, they have mandatory drug testing, etc. We do not have those luxuries or resources. Putting aside the obvious differences in scope (like comparing a Starcraft tournament to true professional physical sports), are you sure that cheating is reviled here more than elsewhere? The reaction to Bonds and Clemens (outside of their home fans) is pretty harsh. Same for the Patriots when they were caught taping practices. Everyone outside Boston wanted their Super Bowls taken back and said their success was only because of the cheating (even though the taping didn't happen during their undefeated season). It's a pretty big deal everywhere when a player cheats.
I don't mean to be confrontational here, I'm just having a difficult time believing that these decisions are reasonable. Maybe it's because I'm really not that involved in Starcraft, I just follow both the professional and foreign scenes casually. I won't complain about the punishments; I was just surprised at their severity. Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?" When you've got that many people deciding that cheating is the best option for them, I can't help but wonder if an outside force pressured some of the players into doing things they wouldn't do otherwise. As to what that outside force is, beats me. I'm just throwing out considerations.
The severity of the punishments are completely in line with what most leagues do when they discover cheating. And the main reason these guys cheated was because they thought they could get away with it. That actually supports the harsher punishments. Do you think there will be as many cheaters next time? I doubt it. That means the punishments were effective. If you're just going to ban someone for the current TSL, there is literally zero incentive NOT to cheat, because if you're outside the Top 48 you'll be eliminated anyway.
But anyway, this post has gone on too long. I just wanted to chime in from the point of view of a neutral person who does disagree with the punishment decisions. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a significant number of people feel the same way I do, but just don't say anything because there's nothing to be gained from it. Those who are especially angered by abuse would be more likely to post about it, I think, than those of us who just find it a disappointment. Regardless, I'm glad to see that something was done, even if I disagree with the severity of the action taken. If the TSL, and Starcraft in general, are to be made "legitimate" in the eyes of society as a whole, then cheating does need to be strictly monitored and dealt with. Thanks for putting on the tournament, and I'm really looking forward to it.
I don't think you fully considered the correct analogy for abuse (compare it to fixing games, not performance enhancing drugs). The reason why cheating is rampant is because of viewpoints like yours where people say "well its not a big deal, they are good players and deserve winning anyway." It does not matter how good someone is. Jaedong could be in our tournament, if he cheated, we would ban him. We have interests that go beyond simply finding the best player at all costs -- we want the competition (and our game) to be one with fair competition. Only this way can we attract future sponsors and become more legitimate.
While I might prefer if the timed event ban applied only to events with prizes, this is certainly fair. I'm definitely glad that a TL forum ban wasn't included in the punishment, that would have been inappropriate for their crimes.
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: I was expecting some new mechanism to punish cheaters well into future games (SC2). No offense to TL, but the only event worthwhile to the people punished was TSL, and no one knows when the next TSL will take place -- if ever. I doubt Yosh cares if he's banned from TL Attack or TL arena. Liquidibition had money involved, but those events have stopped too.
In essence the cheaters were punished with removal from TSL2. That's great and severe, but we knew that a couple of weeks ago. I was expecting something harsher, but in practice, I don't think this will change much.
The only real thing we can punish them with is DQ from TSL3 and other TL events. I strongly disagree with the idea that it won't change anything. I think it'll greatly influence behavior in the next TSL should we have it. Plus, even if it doesn't change behavior, its better to have such a punishment than not, correct?
Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.
When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote: Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
There is no Starcraft equivalent since there is really no real "season". In other sports, suspending for half a season is a heavy punishment because of all the lost pay (I assume you are not paid when you are suspended, correct me if Im wrong) and other perks. In Starcraft, there is really no such thing since there are rarely big money tourneys.
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote: And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants). Ladder abuse does not provide an inherent advantage over opponents in-game, and so a person who wins the TSL even while abusing would still "deserve" it in the sense that they were the best player in the tournament. Meanwhile, consider steroids, which artificially improve a player's ability and provide an inherent advantage against other players. If a person taking steroids wins a sport tournament or breaks a record, then it was not his skill that did it--it was the artificial improvement from his drugs.
If a person abuses the ladder, he has the advantage over ALL ladder participants. How can you even think that they would "deserve" it if they win? They shouldn't be there in the first place, so why would they deserve it? They deserve it just because they were not caught?
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote: Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?"
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: I was expecting some new mechanism to punish cheaters well into future games (SC2). No offense to TL, but the only event worthwhile to the people punished was TSL, and no one knows when the next TSL will take place -- if ever. I doubt Yosh cares if he's banned from TL Attack or TL arena. Liquidibition had money involved, but those events have stopped too.
In essence the cheaters were punished with removal from TSL2. That's great and severe, but we knew that a couple of weeks ago. I was expecting something harsher, but in practice, I don't think this will change much.
The only real thing we can punish them with is DQ from TSL3 and other TL events. I strongly disagree with the idea that it won't change anything. I think it'll greatly influence behavior in the next TSL should we have it. Plus, even if it doesn't change behavior, its better to have such a punishment than not, correct?
Yeah, it's the only real thing you can do; he's saying that it's not really significant.
If it doesn't deter anybody (assuming he's right that it's not a significant punishment [and I'm not sure I disagree/agree]), and the priority is to have good quality games, then no, all a punishment does is take away quality players and games away from the TSL.
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.
When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).
If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.
Can you also ban them until they issue some kind of apology or statement? I want to hear what Yosh and others have to say and why he cheated before you let him back in. Finally, I think you should reward F91 for actually admitting abuse by making his ban less stringent (I don't know how you do this, but you should reward him for actually admitting the abuse, unlike the others)
funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: I was expecting some new mechanism to punish cheaters well into future games (SC2). No offense to TL, but the only event worthwhile to the people punished was TSL, and no one knows when the next TSL will take place -- if ever. I doubt Yosh cares if he's banned from TL Attack or TL arena. Liquidibition had money involved, but those events have stopped too.
In essence the cheaters were punished with removal from TSL2. That's great and severe, but we knew that a couple of weeks ago. I was expecting something harsher, but in practice, I don't think this will change much.
The only real thing we can punish them with is DQ from TSL3 and other TL events. I strongly disagree with the idea that it won't change anything. I think it'll greatly influence behavior in the next TSL should we have it. Plus, even if it doesn't change behavior, its better to have such a punishment than not, correct?
Yeah, it's the only real thing you can do; he's saying that it's not really significant.
If it doesn't deter anybody (assuming he's right that it's not a significant punishment [and I'm not sure I disagree/agree]), and the priority is to have good quality games, then no, all a punishment does is take away quality players and games away from the TSL.
The priority is what the organizers and sponsors want the priority to be. I think any major tournament would easily subtract a few players, even top ones, if it meant that their league wasn't fair or viewed as dirty. Regardless, this is a decision we made: that the added value of these players was simply not worth sacrificing the integrity of our tournament. You seem to completely ignore that a reputation of cheating / dirty players in a tournament actually negatively impacts viewers and sponsorship too. Plus, there are larger considerations. The SC community is going to be a large part of the SC2 community -- probably the core part. If we don't take steps to change this sort of behavior now, its going to continue forever. Players wont magically stop abusing because of SC2.
I don't think you realize how much cheating hurts competitions. One cheater here, there, probably won't make a huge impact. But once a culture of cheating is established, and everyone does it, then you have a competition that can't exist. Games like Starcraft are fun to watch because you do not know the outcome because the competition is fair and honest. If the priority was to sacrifice everything for good quality games, we'd rig it so the best two players got to the finals, and have them script out five 50 minute games that always came down to the final elimination. Would people watch that? No, because its completely dishonest and against the spirit of competition. People watch sports because of fair competition. Sacrificing that aspect of it will hurt you.
Thats why every major sports league punishes people very harshly for any conduct that would make fans or viewers think the sport / league has a reputation for being dishonest or fixed or dirty. All it takes is one player to "abuse his way to win" and all of a sudden TSL is a dirty tournament where abusers are allowed to prosper and there's no honest competition. Are you really willing to trade all this for a few games that may be higher quality? It's an easy decision for anyone that reasonably looks at the situation: you simply cannot have even a tiny bit of tainted cheating in your league.
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.
When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).
Perhaps. But if I recall correctly, there was a company overseas that started by running small tournaments and slowly grew, and "major corporations" sponsored "big time events" and that company didn't lose control. I think they were called OnGameNet. I'm not saying we're the next OGN. But if you were a large corporation looking to sponsor an SC2 tournament, wouldn't you look for a site/staff who ran large BW tournaments in the past? You seem very sure that we will be "left in the dust" when the SC2 tournament scene hasn't even started yet.
If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.
I don't understand what you are saying -- are you suggesting we simply give up? I don't think anyone is delusional about how much competition there will be among websites in SC2. But to have such a pessimistic attitude like "we have no chance unless the game is not a big hit" is basically resigning yourself to failing before you even try. How can you succeed at anything with this sort of attitude?
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote: funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
the rules were set up before TSL and been written.
i hope other tournaments will copy/paste the rules and kick cheaters ass like tl crew does.
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote: funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
I think all the sites can agree that abusing leagues is not acceptable. As we've stated in the OP, we will be monitoring cheating incidents from non-TL tournaments as well, and player conduct there will impact their eligibility in TL events.
As for a standard set of rules, I think that's a great goal.
On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions.
I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here.
edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though.
Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
everyone outside usa thinks it's absolutely laughable how insignificant the punishments for performance enhancing drugs are in usa. in american sports it is essentially really, really beneficial to use them and get banned for a short period of time because the benefits you get will still be present after your suspension expires.
in cross country skiing punishments are significantly tougher.
Good, I hope this mentality is around for SC2 (since there are bound to be many more cheaters there with an influx of new blood). It is a shame that talented players had resorted to this, but better to learn a hard lesson now then an even harder one in the future.
On December 22 2009 06:36 Stone[MB] wrote: banning them from tsl3, punishment seem too severe. how about a -1.5k point deduction players rank at end of tsl3.
maybe OP is easier 4 u to understand if u think of it this way: TL is not banning them from TSL3, just giving them a -10,000 point penalty
I am glad that cheating is not paying dividends in this tournament. I am also impressed by the TSL staff's obvious dedication to running a high-quality, abuse-free competition here. I don't even think that the punishments are excessive, although I wish that they had been announced beforehand as a deterrent rather than afterwards (it's a trap!).
I do, however, wish that folks would dispense with all the these-evildoers-got-what-they-deserved, Captain America bullshit. It's a shame that this happened in a tournament, a shame and not an occasion for patting ourselves on our collective law-abiding back and denigrating the abusers. This is a community issue, not an us-vs-them issue, and we should take the fall from grace of such respected players as Yosh not as a soapbox from which to applaud ourselves but as a sobering reminder that there are times that even the best of us don't live up to our most basic expectations.
Let's have some empathy here along with our justice.
On December 22 2009 06:48 tinman wrote: I am glad that cheating is not paying dividends in this tournament. I am also impressed by the TSL staff's obvious dedication to running a high-quality, abuse-free competition here. I don't even think that the punishments are excessive, although I wish that they had been announced beforehand as a deterrent rather than afterwards (it's a trap!).
I do, however, wish that folks would dispense with all the these-evildoers-got-what-they-deserved, Captain America bullshit. It's a shame that this happened in a tournament, a shame and not an occasion for patting ourselves on our collective law-abiding back and denigrating the abusers. This is a community issue, not an us-vs-them issue, and we should take the fall from grace of such respected players as Yosh not as a soapbox from which to applaud ourselves but as a sobering reminder that there are times that even the best of us don't live up to our most basic expectations.
Let's have some empathy here along with our justice.
i agree with your post if u just replace "Yosh" with "DIMAGA"
On December 22 2009 06:36 Stone[MB] wrote: banning them from tsl3, punishment seem too severe. how about a -1.5k point deduction players rank at end of tsl3.
For most players that would be a DQ anyway I think. If a player is good then you do not care if he is an abuser?
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote: funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
Yes, it is unprofessional to ban people for abuse. It is much better to ban tons of people for someone else's crime and not care I guess, right unk? It's funny that of all people in the brood war community, you are the one talking about being unprofessional.
It should be common sense that abusing is against the rules. I am sure TL did not say people cannot hack the ICCup system to give themselves free points, but I do not think they would allow people for qualification if they did that. It is a common sense.
This is a good policy I suppose. Though perhaps it would have been better to give the warning before the tournament started so that this tournament would also have been improved.
I'm all for this! with the exception of banning f91 from TSL3 due to the in my opinion special circumstances (: if there's more people feeling like me about this maybe we could change that? anyhow it's not a big deal either way i guess cause he did cheat.
Out of curiosity, what did these users do to cheat? I mean aside from obviously gaining an unfair advantage or being an accessory to cheating what did they do?
Are there SC map hacks? The ability to rig your economy to make everything 9999(9)? Make your units invulnerable? Using a program to calculate targeting in battles/skirmishes?
Just curious as to what each individual did to cheat. Not interesting in knowing how to cheat, but what they did to get punished.
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote: funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
Yes, it is unprofessional to ban people for abuse. It is much better to ban tons of people for someone else's crime and not care I guess, right unk? It's funny that of all people in the brood war community, you are the one talking about being unprofessional.
It should be common sense that abusing is against the rules. I am sure TL did not say people cannot hack the ICCup system to give themselves free points, but I do not think they would allow people for qualification if they did that. It is a common sense.
P i a n o M a n
none of my actions were taken against existing iccup rules. Sometimes rules are stupid, unfair etc, but you have a chance to read them. thats a difference.
all those "abusive" actions at TSL were not forbidden by iccup rules in fact. it is not an abuse. anyway you missed the point.
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote: funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
Yes, it is unprofessional to ban people for abuse. It is much better to ban tons of people for someone else's crime and not care I guess, right unk? It's funny that of all people in the brood war community, you are the one talking about being unprofessional.
It should be common sense that abusing is against the rules. I am sure TL did not say people cannot hack the ICCup system to give themselves free points, but I do not think they would allow people for qualification if they did that. It is a common sense.
P i a n o M a n
none of my actions were taken against existing iccup rules. Sometimes rules are stupid, unfair etc, but you have a chance to read them. thats a difference.
all those "abusive" actions at TSL were not forbidden by iccup rules in fact. it is not an abuse. anyway you missed the point.
You make a mistake and think it is about iccup rules. TSL is about breaking of TSL rules, not iccup rules. You can not extend your self over the team liquid. If you make bad rules, then you are a bad admin. The players violate known fairplay by abusing.
Just because a rule is not written does not mean it is not common sense. Do you lack the common sense? Abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse. All players know they cannot abuse, or else they are as of you with the brain of a donkey.
On December 22 2009 06:58 idortlol wrote: Out of curiosity, what did these users do to cheat? I mean aside from obviously gaining an unfair advantage or being an accessory to cheating what did they do?
Are there SC map hacks? The ability to rig your economy to make everything 9999(9)? Make your units invulnerable? Using a program to calculate targeting in battles/skirmishes?
Just curious as to what each individual did to cheat. Not interesting in knowing how to cheat, but what they did to get punished.
please read the thread before you post questions that have already been answered
On December 22 2009 04:51 Rainbow wrote: Nice work, TL. It's good to see abusers get it up the butt, but what do you mean by abusing anyway? Like combat-ex playing D players? (Sorry to bring that up again, but it's the only example I can think of).
Look in the right side, click the T*SL and find the threads that have info on all the Disqualifications.
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote: funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
You are well enough versed in the community to already know that gg.net has a set of standardised rules when it comes to cheaters, hackers and abusers. These were made known years ago. First offense: 1 year, second offense: life time ban. This time we did not use full 1 year since, in our judgement, a few freewins is not the same thing as using maphack (Can be, and is, debated. It is gg.net's view on it however). Using less than one year ban is unprecedented on gg.net. Had we stuck with the exact wording of our rules all these players would have been banned for a full year.
And if you want a standard rule for what exactly is forbidden, I think this will suffice: Cheating is not allowed.
I also think that rule has been in place since the very dawn of sports.
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote: funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
Yes, it is unprofessional to ban people for abuse. It is much better to ban tons of people for someone else's crime and not care I guess, right unk? It's funny that of all people in the brood war community, you are the one talking about being unprofessional.
It should be common sense that abusing is against the rules. I am sure TL did not say people cannot hack the ICCup system to give themselves free points, but I do not think they would allow people for qualification if they did that. It is a common sense.
P i a n o M a n
none of my actions were taken against existing iccup rules. Sometimes rules are stupid, unfair etc, but you have a chance to read them. thats a difference.
all those "abusive" actions at TSL were not forbidden by iccup rules in fact. it is not an abuse. anyway you missed the point.
You make a mistake and think it is about iccup rules. TSL is about breaking of TSL rules, not iccup rules. You can not extend your self over the team liquid. If you make bad rules, then you are a bad admin. The players violate known fairplay by abusing.
Just because a rule is not written does not mean it is not common sense. Do you lack the common sense? Abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse. All players know they cannot abuse, or else they are as of you with the brain of a donkey.
P i a n o M a n
1. i do not make any rules. i am not an admin. But i re-read rules before taking action. 2. In my 1st post i said that it is TSL league and TL rules and their deccision after all. I do respect it, even though i am not totally agree with it. 3. Common sense? people tend of lacking it. I can give you a lot of examples, but this will be a waste of time. i am pretty sure you can't even explain what exactly "abuse" is (concerning starcraft).
I was surprised when several well known and well respected players were caught abusing, but the TL staff made the right decision here and I imagine it was difficult deciding the punishment considering the players involved. In the competitive gaming scene there is nothing worse than a cheater, and no greater insult than being called a cheater. When someone cheats or abuses, they hurt the entire community. The players they have played with, the tournament they are involved in, their fans, and their reputations all suffer as a result. Banning abusers from events is appropriate, and while people can argue about how harsh the punishments should be, they need to be harsh enough to get the point across while also giving the players a chance to contribute to the community and redeem themselves in the future.
Just wanted to support the staff's decision and thank them for running an enjoyable and honorable event.
On December 22 2009 06:17 unk. wrote: funny thing that you are punishing players for some crime not even described by the codes of law (i mean it neither described @ iccup rules, nor @ TL rules, nor anywhere else ) Punishing for action not being forbidden by law is way beyond of how judacial system works. I am not agains banning those players from TL, since it is TL league and TL rules, but asking for banning them from all events is ... kinda lame. if you want make it professional - sit down with gg.net, iccup, wgt so on head admins and make some standart rules of what exactly is forbidden.
Yes, it is unprofessional to ban people for abuse. It is much better to ban tons of people for someone else's crime and not care I guess, right unk? It's funny that of all people in the brood war community, you are the one talking about being unprofessional.
It should be common sense that abusing is against the rules. I am sure TL did not say people cannot hack the ICCup system to give themselves free points, but I do not think they would allow people for qualification if they did that. It is a common sense.
P i a n o M a n
none of my actions were taken against existing iccup rules. Sometimes rules are stupid, unfair etc, but you have a chance to read them. thats a difference.
all those "abusive" actions at TSL were not forbidden by iccup rules in fact. it is not an abuse. anyway you missed the point.
You make a mistake and think it is about iccup rules. TSL is about breaking of TSL rules, not iccup rules. You can not extend your self over the team liquid. If you make bad rules, then you are a bad admin. The players violate known fairplay by abusing.
Just because a rule is not written does not mean it is not common sense. Do you lack the common sense? Abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse. All players know they cannot abuse, or else they are as of you with the brain of a donkey.
P i a n o M a n
i am pretty sure you can't even explain what exactly "abuse" is (concerning starcraft).
I am thinking no one can explain of what all abuse possibilities are. But I can explain that what these players did is abuse. Abuse is something that is easy to identify when it happens, and everyone knows what it is, even if it is not easy to explain every one possibility for it.
I don't agree with it. Cutting too many good players from tsl3. Tournaments like this are supposed to cater to spectators, who create revenue through clicking adverts and discovering sponsors products, and this decision will make tsl3 a whole lot less fun for people who are fans of the players caught.
I understand cutting them from this tournament for the sake of all the players who didnt cheat, but I don't see how them cheating this season affects future TSL's. Sure it discourages future players from cheating but at the cost of the people who will be watching the tournament.
For far too long there has been no deterrence for people who decide to cheat in tournaments. This is a great step in preventing these kind of incidents in future events. The punishment definately fits the crime and I hope people learn from this.
Now if only other Starcraft communities can jump on board with TL and create a uniform / standardized way of dealing with abuse in foreign events, it will be the only way to truly tackle the problem of cheating. Also I hope the high exposure of the abuse in TSL2 hasnt affected the foreign starcraft scene from any future sponsorship opportunities.
On December 22 2009 07:19 jimminy_kriket wrote: I don't agree with it. Cutting too many good players from tsl3. Tournaments like this are supposed to cater to spectators, who create revenue through clicking adverts and discovering sponsors products, and this decision will make tsl3 a whole lot less fun for people who are fans of the players caught.
I understand cutting them from this tournament for the sake of all the players who didnt cheat, but I don't see how them cheating this season affects future TSL's. Sure it discourages future players from cheating but at the cost of the people who will be watching the tournament.
it allows for new foreigners that dont abuse to try and break into the scene and theres always tsl4 and on for your favourite banned player to come back
anyone who compares a foreign competitive starcraft tournament to sports is an idiot and it ends up taking 4 pages of posts to explain the million differences
i love these 'im a lurker but i felt so obligated to post here and defend cheaters' replies, more like 'my best friend isnt going to be able to jam in tsl3 and this sucks'. pick better e-friends next time
im a lurker and i feel all these cheaters should be banner longer. i come from playing competitive counter-strike as long as many of you play competitive starcraft and the bans for FREE LEAGUES were just as bad even worse. anywhere from 1-4 years.
in terms of fan excitement, who didnt watch ret's take on the qualifier group and not get excited?
sympathize with the CHEATERS not being able to play for MONEY. makes alot of sense
Good riddens. I also think greater steps should be taken to detect maphack and other cheats. There are so many people putting effort into this game that there has to be some people who can create better methods of catching cheaters.
Regarding anyone who doesn't like the penalty: Cheaters deserve to be banned for life immediately. Stop whining, because those bastards got lucky.
On December 22 2009 07:19 jimminy_kriket wrote: I don't agree with it. Cutting too many good players from tsl3. Tournaments like this are supposed to cater to spectators, who create revenue through clicking adverts and discovering sponsors products, and this decision will make tsl3 a whole lot less fun for people who are fans of the players caught.
I understand cutting them from this tournament for the sake of all the players who didnt cheat, but I don't see how them cheating this season affects future TSL's. Sure it discourages future players from cheating but at the cost of the people who will be watching the tournament.
If tournaments like this are meant to cater to fans and spectators, then the cheaters should absolutely be banned from future tournaments. As someone who watches competitive Starcraft as a fan, I felt cheated when I saw who the abusers were. Some of them I was rooting for to get into top 48, and was planning on rooting for them through TSL. They made a fool out of me for believing that they were competing honestly. They weren't. If you still want to be fans of these people, that's fine. I say well done TL, well done Admins, go home cheaters.
On December 22 2009 07:19 jimminy_kriket wrote: I don't agree with it. Cutting too many good players from tsl3. Tournaments like this are supposed to cater to spectators, who create revenue through clicking adverts and discovering sponsors products, and this decision will make tsl3 a whole lot less fun for people who are fans of the players caught
The following is partly hyperbole even though it's true because of the comical aspect, but I would prefer to watch my grandma play a game of Starcraft than to watch a cheater, regardless of how good he is. She probably doesn't even know how to turn on a computer.
Anyway, as a lurker, I'm mildly surprised at how lenient the sentencing was.
I kind of see where unk. is coming from with what he is saying. Basically, what most of the abusers did WAS NOT against the rules of the iCCup ladder... giving a free win to a friend is not against the rules, as long as you do it within the amount of games you're allowed to play. You have every right to decide to leave a game at any point, so if I hopped in a game as a B rank player with a D rank friend, and leave after the 2 minute mark to give him points, it isn't breaking a single iCCup rule.
What unk is saying (I think), is that makes it ridiculous for TL and others to expect iCCup to ban the abusing players. Though unk, from what I can tell, has said nothing about it being wrong to ban from TL events and the next TSL.
Although I think the players that made a new account, played it up to their current rank, then had a friend give free wins through an account that received those stats via a transfer from the gaining player IS abuse by iCCup rules... unk, you may correct me if I am wrong on that case.
(As a funny side note, contrary to my example, I am NOT a B player ^^)
On December 22 2009 08:43 NiteKat wrote: I kind of see where unk. is coming from with what he is saying. Basically, what most of the abusers did WAS NOT against the rules of the iCCup ladder... giving a free win to a friend is not against the rules, as long as you do it within the amount of games you're allowed to play. You have every right to decide to leave a game at any point, so if I hopped in a game as a B rank player with a D rank friend, and leave after the 2 minute mark to give him points, it isn't breaking a single iCCup rule.
What unk is saying (I think), is that makes it ridiculous for TL and others to expect iCCup to ban the abusing players. Though unk, from what I can tell, has said nothing about it being wrong to ban from TL events and the next TSL.
Although I think the players that made a new account, played it up to their current rank, then had a friend give free wins through an account that received those stats via a transfer from the gaining player IS abuse by iCCup rules... unk, you may correct me if I am wrong on that case.
(As a funny side note, contrary to my example, I am NOT a B player ^^)
lol... Then if I had the time to find a few friends, I too, could've made A rank and could've been in the TSL without breaking a single rule! Damnit.
How would you feel if you were a legitimate A rank and somebody pulled that stunt to knock you back to spot #50? This isn't about cheating. This is about giving everybody a fair chance to qualify without abusing. It's easy to talk about rules when you have no chance to qualify, but for players who were just on the cusp of being in the TSL, different matter.
On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions.
I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here.
edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though.
And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants).
Well, if they cheated to get into the top 48, then who is to say the player won't map hack or use some other hack to get an unfair advantage to win the tournament? The TSL isn't played live in front of referees, so other than the honesty of the players and Team Liquids structure of catching cheaters(which has limits), there are no ways to find a legitimate winner in the TSL. The cheating player who circumvents Team Liquid's procedures and fair play morals wouldn't be the most skilled player like you mention, they would be the most skilled cheater.
Cheaters are cheaters and what TL has laid out is fair as both a punishment and deterant. Hopefully the players listed will also be scrutinzed thoroughly in their next entry into the scene, simular to a rapist returning to society(HAHA).
I don't think you realize how much cheating hurts competitions. One cheater here, there, probably won't make a huge impact. But once a culture of cheating is established, and everyone does it, then you have a competition that can't exist. Games like Starcraft are fun to watch because you do not know the outcome because the competition is fair and honest. If the priority was to sacrifice everything for good quality games, we'd rig it so the best two players got to the finals, and have them script out five 50 minute games that always came down to the final elimination. Would people watch that? No, because its completely dishonest and against the spirit of competition. People watch sports because of fair competition. Sacrificing that aspect of it will hurt you.
THIS.
It is essential to the enjoyment of EVERY game that the game be fair. We play this game fanatically because there is reasonable balance and fairness built right into the game. When there is a hint of dirt, it takes away from everyone's experience. I don't mind losing games of Starcraft, but when I find out they cheat it makes me want to not play anymore.
People who are defending the cheaters better think of the sponsor of this event. Do you think pokerstrategy.com want to be linked with cheaters and abusers? Do you think pokerstrategy.com will sponsor TSL3 as well when they know that there are abusers among the players?
On December 22 2009 08:43 NiteKat wrote: I kind of see where unk. is coming from with what he is saying. Basically, what most of the abusers did WAS NOT against the rules of the iCCup ladder... giving a free win to a friend is not against the rules, as long as you do it within the amount of games you're allowed to play. You have every right to decide to leave a game at any point, so if I hopped in a game as a B rank player with a D rank friend, and leave after the 2 minute mark to give him points, it isn't breaking a single iCCup rule.
What unk is saying (I think), is that makes it ridiculous for TL and others to expect iCCup to ban the abusing players. Though unk, from what I can tell, has said nothing about it being wrong to ban from TL events and the next TSL.
Although I think the players that made a new account, played it up to their current rank, then had a friend give free wins through an account that received those stats via a transfer from the gaining player IS abuse by iCCup rules... unk, you may correct me if I am wrong on that case.
(As a funny side note, contrary to my example, I am NOT a B player ^^)
lol... Then if I had the time to find a few friends, I too, could've made A rank and could've been in the TSL without breaking a single rule! Damnit.
How would you feel if you were a legitimate A rank and somebody pulled that stunt to knock you back to spot #50? This isn't about cheating. This is about giving everybody a fair chance to qualify without abusing. It's easy to talk about rules when you have no chance to qualify, but for players who were just on the cusp of being in the TSL, different matter.
Oh, don't worry, I was NOT defending the people who got DQed from the TSL... I was just making what I believe to be unk's point clear, that while TSL and TL.net rules may have been broken, not every case broke iCCup's rules... And iCCup rankings give no prizes, so... yeah, they're rules are less strict than TL used for the TSL.
I completely agree with the stance TL has taken on the issue. I just also understand what unk was saying.
On December 22 2009 09:25 mmdmmd wrote: I don't think banning means much to these ppl since there are no planned events in the foreseeable future.
I too think F91 played a large role in this decision. The others, ban or not banned. No one will care.
While I do agree that maybe the Abusers/cheaters don't care about the ban, it is not just about the exclusion of these players. This is about raising an awareness about cheating and cheaters. If one does not make a stand against these abusive actions, you inherently endorse and adopt such behaviour into the community as a whole. We would end up with a cheating culture where noone really cares.
Aside from that, I agree with the actions TL has taken. I don't really care to discuss the severity of the punishment. However, no matter how much I agree with this, I have to frown upon the idea where TL takes the privilege (couldn't find a better word on the fly) to tell other organizers whom to or not to include in their tournaments. Yes, someone has to be the avant garde, however, some of the declarations made seem little out of hand
On December 22 2009 09:48 timmeh wrote: Aside from that, I agree with the actions TL has taken. I don't really care to discuss the severity of the punishment. However, no matter how much I agree with this, I have to frown upon the idea where TL takes the privilege (couldn't find a better word on the fly) to tell other organizers whom to or not to include in their tournaments. Yes, someone has to be the avant garde, however, some of the declarations made seem little out of hand
I think we are completely justified in asking other sites and tournaments to crack down on cheating. Nowhere did we say we "command" others to do this, we are simply urging them to do it. Ultimately it is their decision what to do about cheating and enforcement of fair play. I don't think we need some special privilege to just state our opinions and make requests.
Similarly, if another site held a tournament where a player abused, and then asked us to penalize that player for TSL3, we would strongly consider it. Its our decision but we certainly wouldn't be offended by them asking.
On December 22 2009 09:25 mmdmmd wrote: I don't think banning means much to these ppl since there are no planned events in the foreseeable future.
I too think F91 played a large role in this decision. The others, ban or not banned. No one will care.
If these players don't care about the punishment and don't care about TSL3, that's fine. That's their choice -- we can't force someone to care about playing BW.
I don't understand what you mean about F91, are you saying he influenced the penalty decision somehow? Because I can assure you the player identities didn't matter at all when we were catching abusers and deciding punishments.
edit:
On December 22 2009 10:07 timmeh wrote: Never meant you needed a privilege to state your opinions.
So then you have no problem with what we said? Because we're simply urging other sites to be more strict with cheaters. I don't think we overstepped our bounds to do this, as we were simply stating our opinion.
Good job TL staff I can't think of any better way to handle the situation. a lot of fan boys are heartbroken though I was so shocked to hear that these top players cheated..I'm used to the Korean scene and if a player like Stork or Luxury cheated...
Nicely done. It's unfortunate to see people cheat regardless of their skill level but it's even more unfortunate to have people taint the spirit of competition.
I agree with most that the penalties are fair and I hope the abusers can become honest players again.
if TL do nothing against cheaters, then in the next TLS a lot of players will try to cheat again.
Now its guaranteed that no one will try it again.
awesome.
TSL is serious business and those players just made not only TSL but everything related to SC to look like childish stuff, like if its just a kid's game... acting like a bunch of kids...
look at those players stats, they barely played 100 games, they really don't care about SC, TSL, anything....
What amazes me is that some of these cheaters still have fans, and some are still defending them. Sure they are talented and good at SC, but they have shown by their actions that they have no respect for any of the competitors, the sponsors, the staff, the fans, and the game.
This community is so successful because many of us love this game. There's no reason to defend people that shit all over us and this awesome game.
First of all, I'm really happy and proud of being part of a community that has no tolerance against cheaters. One thing I feel like you either forgot to mention or didn't think of though... While it's a good thing that other communities punish these cheaters as well, it just isn't enough. What you, TL, didn't in this case was being very active in the fight against cheating - more so than ever before seen in the foreign community. I have doubt that other events have the same posibilities to actually perform this sort of investigations to find the cheaters. But this comes with professionalism of course and I see (though TL.net isn't a real company) TSL being a very very professionally arranged event. Bravo to TL.net for doing this amazing work. I feel like cheating has always been a thing holding back not just Starcraft, but Esports in generalt from becoming mainstream, as we see it in Korea. It's is nice to see actions taken on this topic.
The path of the righteous player is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the rule breakers and the tyranny of self gaining abusers. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the ladder of darkness, for he is truly a TSL keeper and the finder of true players. And we will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my Star League. And you will know our name is TEAM LIQUID when we lay our vengeance upon thee.
Seems harsh, I will miss seeing some of the players just because they could provide good games, but then it doesn't matter because cheating is not acceptable.
and all the fanboyism is making me sick... special case for F91... for what? all people who apologized did it after they got caught. If they didn't apologize ten probably because they feel genuinely ashamed, but again it doesn't matter...
btw has any team taken any action against a cheater? (i would be positivity surprised if so, but its highly unlikely, because it would put the given team in great disadvantage if there isn't ant-cheating support from everyone, which it looks like we wont get because of how biased and fanboyish everyone is)
On December 22 2009 11:06 Zurles wrote: The path of the righteous player is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the rule breakers and the tyranny of self gaining abusers. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the ladder of darkness, for he is truly a TSL keeper and the finder of true players. And we will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my Star League. And you will know our name is TEAM LIQUID when we lay our vengeance upon thee.
On December 22 2009 11:06 Zurles wrote: The path of the righteous player is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the rule breakers and the tyranny of self gaining abusers. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the ladder of darkness, for he is truly a TSL keeper and the finder of true players. And we will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my Star League. And you will know our name is TEAM LIQUID when we lay our vengeance upon thee.
:D
Hahahah, gotta love Pulp Fiction (and the Bible ;O) :D.
On December 22 2009 11:06 Zurles wrote: The path of the righteous player is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the rule breakers and the tyranny of self gaining abusers. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the ladder of darkness, for he is truly a TSL keeper and the finder of true players. And we will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my Star League. And you will know our name is TEAM LIQUID when we lay our vengeance upon thee.
On December 22 2009 11:06 Zurles wrote: The path of the righteous player is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the rule breakers and the tyranny of self gaining abusers. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the ladder of darkness, for he is truly a TSL keeper and the finder of true players. And we will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my Star League. And you will know our name is TEAM LIQUID when we lay our vengeance upon thee.
I think the OP should just be change to this. With this people need no explanation.
On December 22 2009 11:06 Zurles wrote: The path of the righteous player is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the rule breakers and the tyranny of self gaining abusers. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the ladder of darkness, for he is truly a TSL keeper and the finder of true players. And we will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my Star League. And you will know our name is TEAM LIQUID when we lay our vengeance upon thee.
Hahaha that was quality.
Back on topic, I was very pleasantly surprised by these penalties and the OP in general. With all the tough talk being bandied about in the GG.net thread, I thought TL was seriously considering lifetime bans for these people which I considered completely excessive in circumstances involving first time offenders and a lack of clearly espoused penalties. TL needed to set out in stone what the penalties would be and I'm glad they have finally done so.
It degrades great players like Ret and Idra (who I hate) if you were to let cheaters compete and possibly win against hard working players. No one would bother competing (or have cash winnings).
im very glad they did this. maybe it's cuz im not particularly involved/knowledgeable about the foreigner scene to care about what happens to these people personally, but this is definitely a great punishment. down with cheaters!
Seems fair to me. This isn't a sports team game, thats a flawed analogy from the get go. One asshat pumping steroids for some extra stats may or not effect the game enough to turn a loss into a win. If an entire team however was doing this or the game in its entirety was rigged then you bet your bippy there would be season long suspensions and possible life time removals. This is a tournament of individual competition and merit. So that one person cheating is, to use the silly sports team analogy, the equivalent of the entire team cheating. If people must us a sports analogy they should consider it more equivalent to a boxing match where its rigged and paid for ahead of time. Would ruin the sport and destroy its future because spectators would feel cheated of their investment in time and fandom energy. GJ TL!
On December 22 2009 14:51 sharkeyanti wrote: spacebarbrokenTT....agree.with.punishments...correct.your.grammar.next.time... impact.is.not.a.verb...penultimate.means.second.to.last
i agree with penultimate, but impact can definitely be a verb. try to at least make sure your criticisms are valid before you hit post.
Seems ok, I would be disappointed if the ban continues into SC2 however. New game, clean slate.
Also the punishments should have been outlined in the tournament rules. I feel if that were the case you would have half or less the number of abusers. A sore oversight.
It´s a good decision even though it´s sad to see some ppl out now
Integrity is not a conditional word. It doesn't blow in the wind or change with the weather. It is your inner image of yourself, and if you look in there and see a man who won't cheat, then you know he never will. John D. MacDonald
any kind of cheating must be erradicated at sight. And players should be even stricter than mods. This is a trusting matter, if you cheat, I could be your friend, but i dont want to play with you anymore, i havent played with some friends in years now after we caught them cheating.
I like your decision, but i hope that these players won't quit playing or something because of this. When you have a sticker "cheater" on your forehead, then it might seem better to just quit.
I like the way you are talking about next TSLs, it would be great if we get to TSL4 or 5, before bw dies or sc2 takes over.
Well done! I approve of any form of punishment for abusers/hackers. IMO I think a 90 day ban from TL is needed too, but hey, I'm not the one who runs this site. Good job mods ^^
On December 22 2009 19:45 Mooncat wrote: I'm not very familiar with ladder abuse/cheating. Can anyone tell me what these guys did exactly?
There have been around 50 like you who come in a random topic and ask the same questions. How about reading the Pokerstrategy.com TSL Forum and answer your own question? Put some goddamn effort into it if you want to know something.
Consider this a warning (also to anyone else who's gonna ask the same questions over and over again).
Good job TL. God, we've waited a lont time for this tournament to come, cheaters should not spoil it. A pity several great names are out of it though, i expected more from them.
On December 22 2009 21:22 m3k wrote: Great ladder! Guys like Morrow get top places, whereas much better players don't get much points because nobody wants to play with them.
Good job and great initiative. I agree 100% with the rules.
It still pisses me off to see f91 as banned -.- I still cant belive he did it, i thought it was so awesome that a chinese player was taking part of a foreigner tournament but then he fucks it all up... Its so fucking stupid, if he had just said "fuck it, lets see how it goes" he would have been in the top 12 anyway...
While I agree with the punishment, I think the degree of penalties should have been made public much earlier, to act as a deterrent. Probably some of these players would still be in the tournament.
On December 22 2009 23:09 Maenander wrote: While I agree with the punishment, I think the degree of penalties should have been made public much earlier, to act as a deterrent. Probably some of these players would still be in the tournament.
Eh well we said that if they violated our rule set we reserved the right to disqualify them. That's a pretty big deterrent right there. And then we disqualified A2 and Pomi and announced that as soon as we got it - and still people tried to cheat the system. Do you really beleive if we had changed that one sentence to include "reserve the right to disqualify cheaters from TSL2, TSL3 and for 12 months" we would have changed anything? Most likely they saw the disqualification as an empty threat due to their "star factor" (i.e. why would we dq A2 when he beat jaedong!11!1!!). Regardless, it is a shame that we even need to be considering putting up deterrents - our community really should be better than this.
So much awful reasoning here from defenders of the cheaters. And by defenders I mean people with below 100 posts who are friends with the cheaters, call themselves lurkers, and make preposterous supporting arguments.
My first impression on reading the OP was that it was too lenient.
On December 23 2009 00:37 cz wrote: My first impression on reading the OP was that it was too lenient.
That's what I thought. I would hand out life time bans for everyone who cheated even once. There are so many skilled players who don't cheat and would never do. There is absolutely no need for cheaters.
On December 22 2009 14:51 sharkeyanti wrote: spacebarbrokenTT....agree.with.punishments...correct.your.grammar.next.time... impact.is.not.a.verb...penultimate.means.second.to.last
i agree with penultimate, but impact can definitely be a verb. try to at least make sure your criticisms are valid before you hit post.
Well, five years ago impact was not a verb. I guess I'm still in a world where the dictionary doesn't really change . Thanks for pointing it out.
On December 22 2009 14:51 sharkeyanti wrote: spacebarbrokenTT....agree.with.punishments...correct.your.grammar.next.time... impact.is.not.a.verb...penultimate.means.second.to.last
i agree with penultimate, but impact can definitely be a verb. try to at least make sure your criticisms are valid before you hit post.
Well, five years ago impact was not a verb. I guess I'm still in a world where the dictionary doesn't really change . Thanks for pointing it out.
not to gangbang you, but that world never existed.
On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out.
In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions.
I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here.
edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though.
That's not true. I am not friend with any of the hackers, not fan neither, nor do I know any of them IRL or online, and I don't like the way TL has been dealing with that. I agree with Tazan.
On December 23 2009 00:37 cz wrote: My first impression on reading the OP was that it was too lenient.
That's what I thought. I would hand out life time bans for everyone who cheated even once. There are so many skilled players who don't cheat and would never do. There is absolutely no need for cheaters.
Bye TT1, bye Kawaï, bye G5 bye Terran, bye Fenix, bye Haypro and probably some more that i forget.
Life ban is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. That's like saying that thieves should be sentenced to death.
Overall i think that TL took the right decision. Maybe a bit too harsh ( 12 months is a lot ).
There was no excuse for some of these great players cheating.
I mean no offense but on a mechanical/physical level dimaga is so much better then incontrol at zerg it is scary and yet one of them actually played there heart out while the other cheated. That alone makes half of these abusers even more sickening. It wasn't like kawaii giving a friend a free win or g5 discing in a game we are talking about some of the cream of the crop players pussying out and cheating. They all deserve more harsh bans.
Nice work. It will for sure stop most people from cheating, but there always will be people who will try to find ways of not getting caught.let's hope they won't succeed in tsl3
On December 23 2009 03:40 AttackZerg wrote: It wasn't like kawaii giving a friend a free win or g5 discing in a game we are talking about some of the cream of the crop players pussying out and cheating. They all deserve more harsh bans.
Yea Tuzer, Fraer, HappyZerg, Juachi, Ranged definitly agree with you lol.
edit: that's like the worst thing i have read in this thread so far ( after the " LIFE BAN BURN THEM" of course ).
If Kawai, G5 etc ... didn't get this sentence it is not because they are worse players, G5 was actually already good. It is because it happened before this new "rule" regarding cheaters and so they got a more lenient sentence.
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.
When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).
Perhaps. But if I recall correctly, there was a company overseas that started by running small tournaments and slowly grew, and "major corporations" sponsored "big time events" and that company didn't lose control. I think they were called OnGameNet. I'm not saying we're the next OGN. But if you were a large corporation looking to sponsor an SC2 tournament, wouldn't you look for a site/staff who ran large BW tournaments in the past? You seem very sure that we will be "left in the dust" when the SC2 tournament scene hasn't even started yet.
If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.
I don't understand what you are saying -- are you suggesting we simply give up? I don't think anyone is delusional about how much competition there will be among websites in SC2. But to have such a pessimistic attitude like "we have no chance unless the game is not a big hit" is basically resigning yourself to failing before you even try. How can you succeed at anything with this sort of attitude?
I agree with the first part of your post before this, it's just unfortunate that good players decided to cheat and remove potentially good matches.
Yes, OGN did have that history. But, if you look at the context, the success of OGN & its ability to remain true to the gamer community rests undeniably on the fortunate coincidence of Korean game-oriented culture and business opportunities. The entire population in Korea is aware of Starcraft, PC cafes are on virtually every block of Seoul, and in dense areas with 3 or 4 on the same street, they still thrive. All the scene needed was money, some good marketing, fantastic players, and that was enough for big companies like Coca-cola to make a move.
Here? The scene is vastly different. Computer games in general are somewhat stigmatized as nerdy or alternative, and even beyond that, the focus lies on consoles, and particularly strong on FPSes. Further diminishing RTS' marketability is the learning curve that viewers face. If gaming is to be chosen at all, simple to understand ones are always chosen. CGS:Invitational, and CGS the league is demonstrative of this: off the top of my head, I believe the games were something like CS:Source, DoA4, and some racing game. Simple, action-packed, quick. These were critical factors in DirectTV's move into the gaming community-- and despite all of the attempts to keep up the hype, the project still folded after a few seasons.
Because the gaming community is not enough of an audience in both numbers and diversity (the latter is sufficient only for specific companies, say gaming-related (Razer, and poker because of the high transfer rate from SC) or male-young-adult-related), corporations will have to market the tournament to a wider population. A couple thousand people tuning into Tasteless commentating GomTV is not enough. So, there are compromises. CGS is the prime example of this. CS 1.6 was FAR more competitive than CS:Source due to a few reasons (eg, head size, a few other factors that any dedicated gotfrag.com visitors would know), and the entire community was arguing for 1.6. The problem? Its outdated graphics. CGS didn't make a serious consideration at all about the overwhelming majority's opinion at ALL major CS website communities (whose fanbase is larger than SC); this trend continued when CGS made a match 10 rounds, and starting money $16k (for anyone who doesn't watch, it was basically a unanimous agreement that this led to many flukes, didn't really show skill), and drafted players each season (ruining team chemistry, also thought to be bad). The outraged voices of the CS community never factored into any decision, because CGS knew the community was already a guaranteed audience (and it turns out, it was).
Casting aside ideals and factoring both the history and the realities of Western gaming, big corporations seem unlikely to become involved, and even if they do, TL seems to be facing an extremely difficult if not nearly insurmountable obstacle to significantly influence the introduction of RTS and SC2 into the masses.
So, what I personally believe to be the most realistic outcome is something along the popularity of DOTA, or perhaps Warcraft 3. I think it's unfair to say I'm being pessimistic, and of course I'm aware that an extremely self-defeatist perspective fosters failure. But an overly confident perspective is equally as dangerous. When I said "big hit," I meant along the lines of CS:Source's run. SC2 will probably attract a decent amount of people, and I suspect WCG and other tournaments like ESWC will probably be the largest tournaments. I do believe TL has the potential to run tournaments better than both WCG and ESWC, but yes, as you said, businesses do look for organizations that have ran the most tournaments for large amounts of money, and no, it is not TL. The best route of action is probably to become more active, have more frequent events (not just TSL, smaller events like TL attack, liquibition, etc), and most importantly, try to open our site up to a more general population, as this is the key factor in any gaming-related business move outside Korea.
If TL is successful, then SC2 may look something like the DOTA scene. Though I haven't visited in a while, in addition to leagues (first CAL, then picked up by CEVO, then by national leagues (eg, the strong presence in Russia, and some other European countries)), there may be major LANs where the payoff (running up to 5 digits for first place) is worth flying for and playing in person. TL can realistically be the head of that kind of SC2 scene (which is once again, the most probable), but it still has a lot of work to strengthen itself. I probably won't be here by the time it happens because I'll be starting graduate school, but I wish the staff good luck, and do believe the dream is possible with hard work.
On December 23 2009 03:40 AttackZerg wrote: It wasn't like kawaii giving a friend a free win or g5 discing in a game we are talking about some of the cream of the crop players pussying out and cheating. They all deserve more harsh bans.
Yea Tuzer, Fraer, HappyZerg, Juachi, Ranged definitly agree with you lol.
edit: that's like the worst thing i have read in this thread so far ( after the " LIFE BAN BURN THEM" of course ).
If Kawai, G5 etc ... didn't get this sentence it is not because they are worse players, G5 was actually already good. It is because it happened before this new "rule" regarding cheaters and so they got a more lenient sentence.
Every player there was attempting to blatantly abuse the community and THEIR fellow participants from our most prestegious tournament of the year. Everyone of them deserves more harsh punishments.
Kawaii was a forteen or fifteen year old weirdo that wasn't very good and acted childish and helped a friend cheat................................ but have you ever met kawaii .... he is a super nice (weirdo) kid that likes attention and that is an opinion formed after he spent a year redeeming himself.
I haven't looked into the g5 thing so I don't have an educated opinion there but since I do hate him I will gladly let that part of my argument fold (gg sir).
I think the magnamity of the tournament should accurately correlate to the punishment. F91 and Dimaga and Yosh were all respectable names until recently. Now they are dirt and the community should recognize their need to redeem themselves or GTFO.
I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see such a strong statement from TL staff. They actually take this community seriously. I wish everyone could see that.
People seem to forget that the most common justification that cheaters use, is that "everyone else is doing it so I'm just leveling the playing field". The only way to combat this attitude is to show that cheaters get caught and punished. Congratulations to TL for doing all this detective work, it really warms my heart.
I think that without a totally transparently fair tournament process there's no point in even talking about "good" players being DQ'd being a shame. Unless the entire system is totally fair you can't even truly objectively decide who is and isn't good. The word loses meaning without a solid foundation. Thats why this is such an important decision by the TL staff. If we want a vibrant and strong community, and more importantly a growing community, we can't just let established players bend the spirit of competition to get into the top 48, because then not only do we essentially lock the "good players" into their top spots and ignore hard working up-and-comers, but we create a stale and predetermined tournament not worth throwing.
This ruling was fair, decisive and important. iCCup may not feel that being given free wins is a problem for their ladder, but their ladder isn't a cash tournament. Personally, I think even iCCup would be better if they cracked down a little more on stuff like that, but it takes a lot of time and hard work, and I can see that they feel the payoff wouldn't really be worth it. It's understandable. We all, i'm sure, appreciate the hard work they already do for us a great deal.
But for the biggest foreign tournament out there. Not only is fairness important, but transparent and open fairness. In this last respect I think TL definitely did their job with commendable passion.
I, personally, appreciate it. And I think you should too, regardless of your fan-loyalty to any of the dq'd.
On December 23 2009 03:40 AttackZerg wrote: It wasn't like kawaii giving a friend a free win or g5 discing in a game we are talking about some of the cream of the crop players pussying out and cheating. They all deserve more harsh bans.
Yea Tuzer, Fraer, HappyZerg, Juachi, Ranged definitly agree with you lol.
edit: that's like the worst thing i have read in this thread so far ( after the " LIFE BAN BURN THEM" of course ).
If Kawai, G5 etc ... didn't get this sentence it is not because they are worse players, G5 was actually already good. It is because it happened before this new "rule" regarding cheaters and so they got a more lenient sentence.
Every player there was attempting to blatantly abuse the community and THEIR fellow participants from our most prestegious tournament of the year. Everyone of them deserves more harsh punishments.
Kawaii was a forteen or fifteen year old weirdo that wasn't very good and acted childish and helped a friend cheat................................ but have you ever met kawaii .... he is a super nice (weirdo) kid that likes attention and that is an opinion formed after he spent a year redeeming himself.
I haven't looked into the g5 thing so I don't have an educated opinion there but since I do hate him I will gladly let that part of my argument fold (gg sir).
I think the magnamity of the tournament should accurately correlate to the punishment. F91 and Dimaga and Yosh were all respectable names until recently. Now they are dirt and the community should recognize their need to redeem themselves or GTFO.
actually yosh has a bigger history as a cheater than hmm literally every single other top player ever to grace starcraft. he abused in gamei ladder, he abused in kbk, he abused in wgt ladder, he played 1v1 tournaments back in the day (before replays) where hattan would observe and in the event that yosh lost the game, hattan and yosh would both claim that yosh won. he maphacked in the compusa gamefixx tournament.. yosh has abused every time he has had the opportunity to abuse, and him being perceived as a legitimate player by everyone who started playing bw after 2003 is a complete disaster. don't get me wrong - he is extremely skilled (and always has been), but he has been cheating or abusing for more than 9 years now. that's more abuse for a longer period of time than _anyone else who plays brood war_.
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.
When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).
Perhaps. But if I recall correctly, there was a company overseas that started by running small tournaments and slowly grew, and "major corporations" sponsored "big time events" and that company didn't lose control. I think they were called OnGameNet. I'm not saying we're the next OGN. But if you were a large corporation looking to sponsor an SC2 tournament, wouldn't you look for a site/staff who ran large BW tournaments in the past? You seem very sure that we will be "left in the dust" when the SC2 tournament scene hasn't even started yet.
If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.
I don't understand what you are saying -- are you suggesting we simply give up? I don't think anyone is delusional about how much competition there will be among websites in SC2. But to have such a pessimistic attitude like "we have no chance unless the game is not a big hit" is basically resigning yourself to failing before you even try. How can you succeed at anything with this sort of attitude?
I agree with the first part of your post before this, it's just unfortunate that good players decided to cheat and remove potentially good matches.
Yes, OGN did have that history. But, if you look at the context, the success of OGN & its ability to remain true to the gamer community rests undeniably on the fortunate coincidence of Korean game-oriented culture and business opportunities. The entire population in Korea is aware of Starcraft, PC cafes are on virtually every block of Seoul, and in dense areas with 3 or 4 on the same street, they still thrive. All the scene needed was money, some good marketing, fantastic players, and that was enough for big companies like Coca-cola to make a move.
Here? The scene is vastly different. Computer games in general are somewhat stigmatized as nerdy or alternative, and even beyond that, the focus lies on consoles, and particularly strong on FPSes. Further diminishing RTS' marketability is the learning curve that viewers face. If gaming is to be chosen at all, simple to understand ones are always chosen. CGS:Invitational, and CGS the league is demonstrative of this: off the top of my head, I believe the games were something like CS:Source, DoA4, and some racing game. Simple, action-packed, quick. These were critical factors in DirectTV's move into the gaming community-- and despite all of the attempts to keep up the hype, the project still folded after a few seasons.
Because the gaming community is not enough of an audience in both numbers and diversity (the latter is sufficient only for specific companies, say gaming-related (Razer, and poker because of the high transfer rate from SC) or male-young-adult-related), corporations will have to market the tournament to a wider population. A couple thousand people tuning into Tasteless commentating GomTV is not enough. So, there are compromises. CGS is the prime example of this. CS 1.6 was FAR more competitive than CS:Source due to a few reasons (eg, head size, a few other factors that any dedicated gotfrag.com visitors would know), and the entire community was arguing for 1.6. The problem? Its outdated graphics. CGS didn't make a serious consideration at all about the overwhelming majority's opinion at ALL major CS website communities (whose fanbase is larger than SC); this trend continued when CGS made a match 10 rounds, and starting money $16k (for anyone who doesn't watch, it was basically a unanimous agreement that this led to many flukes, didn't really show skill), and drafted players each season (ruining team chemistry, also thought to be bad). The outraged voices of the CS community never factored into any decision, because CGS knew the community was already a guaranteed audience (and it turns out, it was).
Casting aside ideals and factoring both the history and the realities of Western gaming, big corporations seem unlikely to become involved, and even if they do, TL seems to be facing an extremely difficult if not nearly insurmountable obstacle to significantly influence the introduction of RTS and SC2 into the masses.
So, what I personally believe to be the most realistic outcome is something along the popularity of DOTA, or perhaps Warcraft 3. I think it's unfair to say I'm being pessimistic, and of course I'm aware that an extremely self-defeatist perspective fosters failure. But an overly confident perspective is equally as dangerous. When I said "big hit," I meant along the lines of CS:Source's run. SC2 will probably attract a decent amount of people, and I suspect WCG and other tournaments like ESWC will probably be the largest tournaments. I do believe TL has the potential to run tournaments better than both WCG and ESWC, but yes, as you said, businesses do look for organizations that have ran the most tournaments for large amounts of money, and no, it is not TL. The best route of action is probably to become more active, have more frequent events (not just TSL, smaller events like TL attack, liquibition, etc), and most importantly, try to open our site up to a more general population, as this is the key factor in any gaming-related business move outside Korea.
If TL is successful, then SC2 may look something like the DOTA scene. Though I haven't visited in a while, in addition to leagues (first CAL, then picked up by CEVO, then by national leagues (eg, the strong presence in Russia, and some other European countries)), there may be major LANs where the payoff (running up to 5 digits for first place) is worth flying for and playing in person. TL can realistically be the head of that kind of SC2 scene (which is once again, the most probable), but it still has a lot of work to strengthen itself. I probably won't be here by the time it happens because I'll be starting graduate school, but I wish the staff good luck, and do believe the dream is possible with hard work.
So basically, you're saying SC2 and RTS in general isn't established outside Korea. Also, that TL will have to work hard, run more frequent events, and get more members from the general population. I think just about every single person knows this.
Its not like its some big secret that we have to get more general members and work hard as a staff if we (TL) want to stay competitive when SC2 comes out. It's pretty obvious.
On December 23 2009 03:40 AttackZerg wrote: It wasn't like kawaii giving a friend a free win or g5 discing in a game we are talking about some of the cream of the crop players pussying out and cheating. They all deserve more harsh bans.
Yea Tuzer, Fraer, HappyZerg, Juachi, Ranged definitly agree with you lol.
edit: that's like the worst thing i have read in this thread so far ( after the " LIFE BAN BURN THEM" of course ).
If Kawai, G5 etc ... didn't get this sentence it is not because they are worse players, G5 was actually already good. It is because it happened before this new "rule" regarding cheaters and so they got a more lenient sentence.
Every player there was attempting to blatantly abuse the community and THEIR fellow participants from our most prestegious tournament of the year. Everyone of them deserves more harsh punishments.
Kawaii was a forteen or fifteen year old weirdo that wasn't very good and acted childish and helped a friend cheat................................ but have you ever met kawaii .... he is a super nice (weirdo) kid that likes attention and that is an opinion formed after he spent a year redeeming himself.
I haven't looked into the g5 thing so I don't have an educated opinion there but since I do hate him I will gladly let that part of my argument fold (gg sir).
I think the magnamity of the tournament should accurately correlate to the punishment. F91 and Dimaga and Yosh were all respectable names until recently. Now they are dirt and the community should recognize their need to redeem themselves or GTFO.
You are trying to say that younger people deserve a better treatment ? I don't think it is stated in the new rules ( hopefully ). Justice should be the same for everyone. I mean your whole point is just incoherent. You are arguing that Kawai "only helped" a friend eh guess what that's exactly what Tuzer did. He didn't even play the ladder.
Also the " this guy is nice " argument is the most retarded thing ever. Tons of abusers or hackers are nice people irl even if they are cheaters. TL people who have met Dimaga in China all said that he is a nice guy. Same for the few guys who met Dino ( Even him !!! ) Irl ( i remember reading a Xeris blog ). Same for F91, same for Yosh, same for SarenS and Tuzer. Same for G5 btw. Being caught once ( or even multiple times ) for abusing or cheating doesn't mean that you are some sort of nazi criminal in real life. People should be punished because of their acts. And your own positive personal opinion about Kawai doesn't mean anything because i probably could find hundred of Chinese people who will say that F91 is a super cool guy too. The only reason why Kawai had a different punishment is because it happened before and there were no real standardized "rules" about abusing/hacking. This is fine and i'm not arguing for a retroactive punishment because that would be unfair ( and even if it was more lenient he had already one ) but don't try to make some incoherent explanation ( " he is nice " " he is young ", " he only helped to abuse " etc... ) It doesn't make any sense. Nobody cares if the kid is nice or not. It doesn't matter.
If a 14 years old kid abused during this TSL i'm pretty much sure he would have been banned for 12 months too. Well at least i hope because i hate double standards.
now im wondering if F91 had already bought his ticket to go somewhere else so he could play outside of China. he said he abused so that it would fit his flight schedule, right? so now, he has to fly out for no reason (or cancel, but still he loses money)
and he must really love this tournament because he has to pay some cash up front (plane ticket) just for a chance at the gold.
A ban til the end of 2010? That practically ended these players's SC1 gaming career, ouch that's gotta hurt. Great to see a move that promotes the integrity of the game.
On December 23 2009 09:05 LaughingTulkas wrote: Great job! TL staff is definitely one of the best of ANY staff on the entire internet.
couldnt agree more.
I can honestly say (not just because I'm on staff, of course it looks like I'm biased) that I agree 100%. Having seen the staff from the sidelines as a regular member, then some 'behind the scenes' actions in the staff forums, I have never seen a more dedicated and hard working group of volunteers so committed to maintaining the highest levels of integrity and promote an image of competency in my life. The way the staff gels together and makes decisions is pretty amazing, especially in recent years where a few leaders have really surfaced (looking at Hot_Bid, Kennigit, Chill and Plexa here... these guys are truly amazing), as well as a host of others who come up with incredible ideas and just run with it.
I often feel bad I don't contribute an inkling compared to some of the guys (and gals!) on our staff; but with the raw talent some have, I think an old man like me would just be getting in the way.
I'm stunned. I actually expected people to be outraged at how mild the punishments would be, not at how severe it was. Keep in mind that:
1) We don't know how many TL events will happen within the next 12 months. There might be a lot of events, a few, or maybe none at all. Of those events, if these abusers weren't banned, would they even be eligible, or even be available to play in these events?
2) Will these abusers still be playing Starcraft in 12 months? Will they still have interest in playing in TSL3 when it happens?
These punishments really only hurt the abusers if they still have an interest in participating in TL events. It's not as severe as some people make it out to be. Their accounts on TL aren't banned and they're still allowed to have links to their streaming page. They can still read, enjoy, and comment on all TL content that is provided by the same people that they tried to screw over (the TL organizers).
Personally, I think the punishment is just a slap on the wrist.
The decided punishments seem reasonable. I am also glad that rules for the future events were written. Hopefully different sites will work together regarding these matters.
On December 23 2009 18:34 soudo wrote: I'm stunned. I actually expected people to be outraged at how mild the punishments would be, not at how severe it was. Keep in mind that:
1) We don't know how many TL events will happen within the next 12 months. There might be a lot of events, a few, or maybe none at all. Of those events, if these abusers weren't banned, would they even be eligible, or even be available to play in these events?
2) Will these abusers still be playing Starcraft in 12 months? Will they still have interest in playing in TSL3 when it happens?
These punishments really only hurt the abusers if they still have an interest in participating in TL events. It's not as severe as some people make it out to be. Their accounts on TL aren't banned and they're still allowed to have links to their streaming page. They can still read, enjoy, and comment on all TL content that is provided by the same people that they tried to screw over (the TL organizers).
Personally, I think the punishment is just a slap on the wrist.
It's not severe at all. I would dare to say that none of them really cared.
Well, i've got some time, so I may as well make a statement.
Firstly I want to say that being banned from TSL3 and TL events for 8 months blows, and i've totally lost all motivation to play now. Infact i've played one game in the last week, but thats partly because they have been working me long hours at work too.
I don't want to sound like an idiot, or make excuses for myself, but hey at this point i've got nothing to lose. I've been playing with yosh for 2 years now. Out of all the people on bw I would play with him the most, talk to him the most, and he would coach me. He is honestly an incredibly nice guy, and no matter how much bashing you fags do, you won't ever be able to take that away from him.
And as far as free winning for Yosh ? I didn't even think twice about it because it was just like another practice game against him for me. Sure, it was me vs him smurf account, but we had already been sharing another one of his accounts earlier in the season, so it didn't feel any different. I tried my very best to win against him, and I actually almost won game 2. So if I had used my account instead of his smurf account things would be different, but I wanted to end the season with A- on RaNgeD.
I don't know if i'll quit, or just take a break for now. (Not that any of you care) Bring on the flame..
On December 24 2009 01:56 RaNgeD wrote: Well, i've got some time, so I may as well make a statement.
Firstly I want to say that being banned from TSL3 and TL events for 8 months blows, and i've totally lost all motivation to play now. Infact i've played one game in the last week, but thats partly because they have been working me long hours at work too.
I don't want to sound like an idiot, or make excuses for myself, but hey at this point i've got nothing to lose. I've been playing with yosh for 2 years now. Out of all the people on bw I would play with him the most, talk to him the most, and he would coach me. He is honestly an incredibly nice guy, and no matter how much bashing you fags do, you won't ever be able to take that away from him.
And as far as free winning for Yosh ? I didn't even think twice about it because it was just like another practice game against him for me. Sure, it was me vs him smurf account, but we had already been sharing another one of his accounts earlier in the season, so it didn't feel any different. I tried my very best to win against him, and I actually almost won game 2. So if I had used my account instead of his smurf account things would be different, but I wanted to end the season with A- on RaNgeD.
I don't know if i'll quit, or just take a break for now. (Not that any of you care) Bring on the flame..
Don't want to flame, but even though it wasn't exactly a surprise you'd do something like this, it's still sad to see you didn't learn from previous experiences. I sincerely hope you've learned this time and get back to some clean and good gaming later on =D
On December 24 2009 01:56 RaNgeD wrote: Well, i've got some time, so I may as well make a statement.
Firstly I want to say that being banned from TSL3 and TL events for 8 months blows, and i've totally lost all motivation to play now. Infact i've played one game in the last week, but thats partly because they have been working me long hours at work too.
I don't want to sound like an idiot, or make excuses for myself, but hey at this point i've got nothing to lose. I've been playing with yosh for 2 years now. Out of all the people on bw I would play with him the most, talk to him the most, and he would coach me. He is honestly an incredibly nice guy, and no matter how much bashing you fags do, you won't ever be able to take that away from him.
And as far as free winning for Yosh ? I didn't even think twice about it because it was just like another practice game against him for me. Sure, it was me vs him smurf account, but we had already been sharing another one of his accounts earlier in the season, so it didn't feel any different. I tried my very best to win against him, and I actually almost won game 2. So if I had used my account instead of his smurf account things would be different, but I wanted to end the season with A- on RaNgeD.
I don't know if i'll quit, or just take a break for now. (Not that any of you care) Bring on the flame..
Thanks for not making excuses and we all know most of these guys are nice guys but I hope you understand like most of us that cheating is not welcomed here and that even though the punishment might seem harsh it is what we need to keep this community clean and fun.
I dont know you, havent seen you play or anything but I hope you dont quit. We are the best SC community out there, and we are trying to keep it that way. Thats the only reason I agree with the punishment. I have nothing personal against these guys or you and I bet most of us dont even really know them but doing what they did is not cool... thats all.
it's funny how the only way we can comment is through here- is there anyway we can directly email or talk to the person who is in charge of TSL? i would like to contact them directly regarding one of the players
On December 25 2009 01:53 RiZn wrote: it's funny how the only way we can comment is through here- is there anyway we can directly email or talk to the person who is in charge of TSL? i would like to contact them directly regarding one of the players
If by here you mean this web site then yeah, the thing is that the whole thing was done through here... if you mean the thread then I think you just have to PM the administrators that are on TSL.
Good work. Unfortunately in the real world cheating and abusing will take place no matter what precautions are taken - but HARSH consequences will certainly make a person second guess themselves before they are about to do something that breaks the rules.
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.
When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).
Perhaps. But if I recall correctly, there was a company overseas that started by running small tournaments and slowly grew, and "major corporations" sponsored "big time events" and that company didn't lose control. I think they were called OnGameNet. I'm not saying we're the next OGN. But if you were a large corporation looking to sponsor an SC2 tournament, wouldn't you look for a site/staff who ran large BW tournaments in the past? You seem very sure that we will be "left in the dust" when the SC2 tournament scene hasn't even started yet.
If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.
I don't understand what you are saying -- are you suggesting we simply give up? I don't think anyone is delusional about how much competition there will be among websites in SC2. But to have such a pessimistic attitude like "we have no chance unless the game is not a big hit" is basically resigning yourself to failing before you even try. How can you succeed at anything with this sort of attitude?
I agree with the first part of your post before this, it's just unfortunate that good players decided to cheat and remove potentially good matches.
Yes, OGN did have that history. But, if you look at the context, the success of OGN & its ability to remain true to the gamer community rests undeniably on the fortunate coincidence of Korean game-oriented culture and business opportunities. The entire population in Korea is aware of Starcraft, PC cafes are on virtually every block of Seoul, and in dense areas with 3 or 4 on the same street, they still thrive. All the scene needed was money, some good marketing, fantastic players, and that was enough for big companies like Coca-cola to make a move.
Here? The scene is vastly different. Computer games in general are somewhat stigmatized as nerdy or alternative, and even beyond that, the focus lies on consoles, and particularly strong on FPSes. Further diminishing RTS' marketability is the learning curve that viewers face. If gaming is to be chosen at all, simple to understand ones are always chosen. CGS:Invitational, and CGS the league is demonstrative of this: off the top of my head, I believe the games were something like CS:Source, DoA4, and some racing game. Simple, action-packed, quick. These were critical factors in DirectTV's move into the gaming community-- and despite all of the attempts to keep up the hype, the project still folded after a few seasons.
Because the gaming community is not enough of an audience in both numbers and diversity (the latter is sufficient only for specific companies, say gaming-related (Razer, and poker because of the high transfer rate from SC) or male-young-adult-related), corporations will have to market the tournament to a wider population. A couple thousand people tuning into Tasteless commentating GomTV is not enough. So, there are compromises. CGS is the prime example of this. CS 1.6 was FAR more competitive than CS:Source due to a few reasons (eg, head size, a few other factors that any dedicated gotfrag.com visitors would know), and the entire community was arguing for 1.6. The problem? Its outdated graphics. CGS didn't make a serious consideration at all about the overwhelming majority's opinion at ALL major CS website communities (whose fanbase is larger than SC); this trend continued when CGS made a match 10 rounds, and starting money $16k (for anyone who doesn't watch, it was basically a unanimous agreement that this led to many flukes, didn't really show skill), and drafted players each season (ruining team chemistry, also thought to be bad). The outraged voices of the CS community never factored into any decision, because CGS knew the community was already a guaranteed audience (and it turns out, it was).
Casting aside ideals and factoring both the history and the realities of Western gaming, big corporations seem unlikely to become involved, and even if they do, TL seems to be facing an extremely difficult if not nearly insurmountable obstacle to significantly influence the introduction of RTS and SC2 into the masses.
So, what I personally believe to be the most realistic outcome is something along the popularity of DOTA, or perhaps Warcraft 3. I think it's unfair to say I'm being pessimistic, and of course I'm aware that an extremely self-defeatist perspective fosters failure. But an overly confident perspective is equally as dangerous. When I said "big hit," I meant along the lines of CS:Source's run. SC2 will probably attract a decent amount of people, and I suspect WCG and other tournaments like ESWC will probably be the largest tournaments. I do believe TL has the potential to run tournaments better than both WCG and ESWC, but yes, as you said, businesses do look for organizations that have ran the most tournaments for large amounts of money, and no, it is not TL. The best route of action is probably to become more active, have more frequent events (not just TSL, smaller events like TL attack, liquibition, etc), and most importantly, try to open our site up to a more general population, as this is the key factor in any gaming-related business move outside Korea.
If TL is successful, then SC2 may look something like the DOTA scene. Though I haven't visited in a while, in addition to leagues (first CAL, then picked up by CEVO, then by national leagues (eg, the strong presence in Russia, and some other European countries)), there may be major LANs where the payoff (running up to 5 digits for first place) is worth flying for and playing in person. TL can realistically be the head of that kind of SC2 scene (which is once again, the most probable), but it still has a lot of work to strengthen itself. I probably won't be here by the time it happens because I'll be starting graduate school, but I wish the staff good luck, and do believe the dream is possible with hard work.
So basically, you're saying SC2 and RTS in general isn't established outside Korea. Also, that TL will have to work hard, run more frequent events, and get more members from the general population. I think just about every single person knows this.
Its not like its some big secret that we have to get more general members and work hard as a staff if we (TL) want to stay competitive when SC2 comes out. It's pretty obvious.
and detailing the conditions in which TL might be successful, and the ones in which TL is very unlikely to do so. and a lot more. nice summary, though.
On December 23 2009 00:37 cz wrote: So much awful reasoning here from defenders of the cheaters. And by defenders I mean people with below 100 posts who are friends with the cheaters, call themselves lurkers, and make preposterous supporting arguments.
I'd just like to say I'm a lurker with well under 100 posts, and the punishments seem pretty fair to me.
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.
When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
If SC2 catches on seriously, and there are major corporations willing to sponsor big-time events (see Halo, CS 1.6, for a while CS:Source), then it is likely that TL will be left in the dust, or if anything, left on the sidelines with little control (professional managers who are essentially entrepreneurs won't listen attentively).
Perhaps. But if I recall correctly, there was a company overseas that started by running small tournaments and slowly grew, and "major corporations" sponsored "big time events" and that company didn't lose control. I think they were called OnGameNet. I'm not saying we're the next OGN. But if you were a large corporation looking to sponsor an SC2 tournament, wouldn't you look for a site/staff who ran large BW tournaments in the past? You seem very sure that we will be "left in the dust" when the SC2 tournament scene hasn't even started yet.
If SC2 doesn't, and the hype dies down quickly to leave the typical RTS fanatic community, then TL is probably the most likely to take the lead given our dedicated community, but I only see us at the top of SC2 with the biggest major leagues and events if there isn't that much interest.
I don't understand what you are saying -- are you suggesting we simply give up? I don't think anyone is delusional about how much competition there will be among websites in SC2. But to have such a pessimistic attitude like "we have no chance unless the game is not a big hit" is basically resigning yourself to failing before you even try. How can you succeed at anything with this sort of attitude?
I agree with the first part of your post before this, it's just unfortunate that good players decided to cheat and remove potentially good matches.
Yes, OGN did have that history. But, if you look at the context, the success of OGN & its ability to remain true to the gamer community rests undeniably on the fortunate coincidence of Korean game-oriented culture and business opportunities. The entire population in Korea is aware of Starcraft, PC cafes are on virtually every block of Seoul, and in dense areas with 3 or 4 on the same street, they still thrive. All the scene needed was money, some good marketing, fantastic players, and that was enough for big companies like Coca-cola to make a move.
Here? The scene is vastly different. Computer games in general are somewhat stigmatized as nerdy or alternative, and even beyond that, the focus lies on consoles, and particularly strong on FPSes. Further diminishing RTS' marketability is the learning curve that viewers face. If gaming is to be chosen at all, simple to understand ones are always chosen. CGS:Invitational, and CGS the league is demonstrative of this: off the top of my head, I believe the games were something like CS:Source, DoA4, and some racing game. Simple, action-packed, quick. These were critical factors in DirectTV's move into the gaming community-- and despite all of the attempts to keep up the hype, the project still folded after a few seasons.
Because the gaming community is not enough of an audience in both numbers and diversity (the latter is sufficient only for specific companies, say gaming-related (Razer, and poker because of the high transfer rate from SC) or male-young-adult-related), corporations will have to market the tournament to a wider population. A couple thousand people tuning into Tasteless commentating GomTV is not enough. So, there are compromises. CGS is the prime example of this. CS 1.6 was FAR more competitive than CS:Source due to a few reasons (eg, head size, a few other factors that any dedicated gotfrag.com visitors would know), and the entire community was arguing for 1.6. The problem? Its outdated graphics. CGS didn't make a serious consideration at all about the overwhelming majority's opinion at ALL major CS website communities (whose fanbase is larger than SC); this trend continued when CGS made a match 10 rounds, and starting money $16k (for anyone who doesn't watch, it was basically a unanimous agreement that this led to many flukes, didn't really show skill), and drafted players each season (ruining team chemistry, also thought to be bad). The outraged voices of the CS community never factored into any decision, because CGS knew the community was already a guaranteed audience (and it turns out, it was).
Casting aside ideals and factoring both the history and the realities of Western gaming, big corporations seem unlikely to become involved, and even if they do, TL seems to be facing an extremely difficult if not nearly insurmountable obstacle to significantly influence the introduction of RTS and SC2 into the masses.
So, what I personally believe to be the most realistic outcome is something along the popularity of DOTA, or perhaps Warcraft 3. I think it's unfair to say I'm being pessimistic, and of course I'm aware that an extremely self-defeatist perspective fosters failure. But an overly confident perspective is equally as dangerous. When I said "big hit," I meant along the lines of CS:Source's run. SC2 will probably attract a decent amount of people, and I suspect WCG and other tournaments like ESWC will probably be the largest tournaments. I do believe TL has the potential to run tournaments better than both WCG and ESWC, but yes, as you said, businesses do look for organizations that have ran the most tournaments for large amounts of money, and no, it is not TL. The best route of action is probably to become more active, have more frequent events (not just TSL, smaller events like TL attack, liquibition, etc), and most importantly, try to open our site up to a more general population, as this is the key factor in any gaming-related business move outside Korea.
If TL is successful, then SC2 may look something like the DOTA scene. Though I haven't visited in a while, in addition to leagues (first CAL, then picked up by CEVO, then by national leagues (eg, the strong presence in Russia, and some other European countries)), there may be major LANs where the payoff (running up to 5 digits for first place) is worth flying for and playing in person. TL can realistically be the head of that kind of SC2 scene (which is once again, the most probable), but it still has a lot of work to strengthen itself. I probably won't be here by the time it happens because I'll be starting graduate school, but I wish the staff good luck, and do believe the dream is possible with hard work.
So basically, you're saying SC2 and RTS in general isn't established outside Korea. Also, that TL will have to work hard, run more frequent events, and get more members from the general population. I think just about every single person knows this.
Its not like its some big secret that we have to get more general members and work hard as a staff if we (TL) want to stay competitive when SC2 comes out. It's pretty obvious.
and detailing the conditions in which TL might be successful, and the ones in which TL is very unlikely to do so. and a lot more. nice summary, though.
More than just getting more members, he also said that we should strive to change the image of a gamer. In America, gamers are viewed as overweight, socially inept geeks that sit at their computers all day in their mother's basement. Although this may be a fitting stereotype for some people in the community, many live successful lives despite or outside of gaming and this kind of image is something we should strive to promote. In Korea, gamers are known and when they appear on programs, the most famous ones are noticed. However, in America, the gaming community is either unknown or reviled in the popular culture and very few gamers, if any, have the name brand recognition of someone like Boxer in Korea or like mewtwoking in the gaming community in general.
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