|
To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss...
|
On December 13 2021 05:20 Poopi wrote:Why has Serral disappeared from these rankings? Winnings/2021He was punished for losing TSL8 so they removed him from liquipedia DB? :o Not at all the correct thread, friend.
|
Czech Republic12117 Posts
On December 13 2021 07:54 kingism wrote: To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss... eh, this has so many wrong statements it can qualify as a false flag operation
e.g. Zest and Parting won pretty nice sum of monies this year. Zest is around 92k USD and Parting 46k USD.
On December 13 2021 05:20 Poopi wrote:Why has Serral disappeared from these rankings? Winnings/2021He was punished for losing TSL8 so they removed him from liquipedia DB? :o together with Maru, Rogue and Trap. But who cares about those damn pesky Koreans, right?
|
On December 13 2021 07:54 kingism wrote: To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss...
This post is dumb af lol
|
Northern Ireland20854 Posts
On December 14 2021 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2021 07:54 kingism wrote: To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss... This post is dumb af lol Bit harsh/rude. Whether the central premise is accurate is another thing, I’m not sure it is, for the record.
But the logical follow-through is solid. In a competitive field if your faction sucks you’re more likely to depart, and others are less likely to follow in your footsteps.
Any argument to the contrary would be counter intuitive to the point of being contrarian for contrariness’ sake.
They struck the odd big blow, but pre-military Classic, Stats. sOs, Zest and herO couldn’t break the best Zergs where it counted in the biggest tournaments, and weren’t able to for years.
So now the hope is that these players, who couldn’t manage it before a military-enforced break, can manage it afterwards?
There’s nothing close to that talent emerging either, it’s just Trap. Zoun is very good, he may get better but he’s not a Stats or a Classic
If I’m a good Protoss amateur player in Korea, I’m staying an amateur player. There’s not enough money in the Korean scene to make the necessary transition possible. Indeed if I’m a good amateur of any race.
To close the gap with 6-10 year veteran pro gamers, you need a Ro24 or an early exit in Super Tournament to pay the bills, which it just doesn’t, you have to immediately be good enough to make consistent deep runs or it’s not economically viable, and no amateur prospect is that good off the bat.
Zoun is the closest we have to a ‘new’ player in that respect but he’s played full time in Kespa houses, and chose to go to military early which is why we didn’t see him break through, he’s still a graduate of the Kespa system.
|
On December 14 2021 03:12 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2021 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 13 2021 07:54 kingism wrote: To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss... This post is dumb af lol Bit harsh/rude. Whether the central premise is accurate is another thing, I’m not sure it is, for the record. But the logical follow-through is solid. In a competitive field if your faction sucks you’re more likely to depart, and others are less likely to follow in your footsteps. Any argument to the contrary would be counter intuitive to the point of being contrarian for contrariness’ sake. They struck the odd big blow, but pre-military Classic, Stats. sOs, Zest and herO couldn’t break the best Zergs where it counted in the biggest tournaments, and weren’t able to for years. So now the hope is that these players, who couldn’t manage it before a military-enforced break, can manage it afterwards? There’s nothing close to that talent emerging either, it’s just Trap. Zoun is very good, he may get better but he’s not a Stats or a Classic If I’m a good Protoss amateur player in Korea, I’m staying an amateur player. There’s not enough money in the Korean scene to make the necessary transition possible. Indeed if I’m a good amateur of any race. To close the gap with 6-10 year veteran pro gamers, you need a Ro24 or an early exit in Super Tournament to pay the bills, which it just doesn’t, you have to immediately be good enough to make consistent deep runs or it’s not economically viable, and no amateur prospect is that good off the bat. Zoun is the closest we have to a ‘new’ player in that respect but he’s played full time in Kespa houses, and chose to go to military early which is why we didn’t see him break through, he’s still a graduate of the Kespa system.
Is it really harsh or rude though? Deacon already highlighted exactly why this post is dumb and I agree with him, the top 2 Protoss players have definitely made some cash this year. Honestly man you take Serral's or Rogue's final wins out of the picture and instantly the balance picture looks alot more reasonable.
Since both of them have taken 3 out of the 21, that's 6 1st place finishes between 2 people, if you take either one of them out, Zerg took a total of 6 out of 21 first place finishes, less then even 33%.
Premier Tournaments
I've already stated countless times that I believe a QoL change is in order for PvZ, but to sit there and say that all Protoss players are wasting their time because they'll never beat Serral or Rogue (2 of the quite literal best players of all time) because of racial imbalance or that Zerg is just hopelessly unbeatable is just stupid.
Rogue and Serral look unbeatable, compare even Dark and Reynor and they are not on their level. If Dark and Reynor were the poster children for the Zerg race right now this thread would probably not even exist because there would be 6 less Zerg finishes, bringing the total down for 2021 to 3 out of 21 tournaments and everyone would say, "Well nobody can reliably beat Trap or Maru so Zerg MUST be weak."
It's like saying Brood War was hopelessly imbalanced because flash had a 71 % win rate vs. Protoss and Zerg and Terrans had all the legitimate bonjwas. We all know that Terran was in fact the strongest race at the highest level of BW, but only Flash made Terran look actually imbalanced. Look at Bisu? Everyone at the time thought Protoss was trash, then Bisu comes in and plays at a higher level and flips the match up completely on it's head. Was Protoss really that weak? Or was Bisu simply that good?
|
Northern Ireland20854 Posts
On December 14 2021 03:50 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2021 03:12 WombaT wrote:On December 14 2021 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 13 2021 07:54 kingism wrote: To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss... This post is dumb af lol Bit harsh/rude. Whether the central premise is accurate is another thing, I’m not sure it is, for the record. But the logical follow-through is solid. In a competitive field if your faction sucks you’re more likely to depart, and others are less likely to follow in your footsteps. Any argument to the contrary would be counter intuitive to the point of being contrarian for contrariness’ sake. They struck the odd big blow, but pre-military Classic, Stats. sOs, Zest and herO couldn’t break the best Zergs where it counted in the biggest tournaments, and weren’t able to for years. So now the hope is that these players, who couldn’t manage it before a military-enforced break, can manage it afterwards? There’s nothing close to that talent emerging either, it’s just Trap. Zoun is very good, he may get better but he’s not a Stats or a Classic If I’m a good Protoss amateur player in Korea, I’m staying an amateur player. There’s not enough money in the Korean scene to make the necessary transition possible. Indeed if I’m a good amateur of any race. To close the gap with 6-10 year veteran pro gamers, you need a Ro24 or an early exit in Super Tournament to pay the bills, which it just doesn’t, you have to immediately be good enough to make consistent deep runs or it’s not economically viable, and no amateur prospect is that good off the bat. Zoun is the closest we have to a ‘new’ player in that respect but he’s played full time in Kespa houses, and chose to go to military early which is why we didn’t see him break through, he’s still a graduate of the Kespa system. Is it really harsh or rude though? Deacon already highlighted exactly why this post is dumb and I agree with him, the top 2 Protoss players have definitely made some cash this year. Honestly man you take Serral's or Rogue's final wins out of the picture and instantly the balance picture looks alot more reasonable. Since both of them have taken 3 out of the 21, that's 6 1st place finishes between 2 people, if you take either one of them out, Zerg took a total of 6 out of 21 first place finishes, less then even 33%. Premier TournamentsI've already stated countless times that I believe a QoL change is in order for PvZ, but to sit there and say that all Protoss players are wasting their time because they'll never beat Serral or Rogue (2 of the quite literal best players of all time) because of racial imbalance or that Zerg is just hopelessly unbeatable is just stupid. Rogue and Serral look unbeatable, compare even Dark and Reynor and they are not on their level. If Dark and Reynor were the poster children for the Zerg race right now this thread would probably not even exist because there would be 6 less Zerg finishes, bringing the total down for 2021 to 3 out of 21 tournaments and everyone would say, "Well nobody can reliably beat Trap or Maru so Zerg MUST be weak." It's like saying Brood War was hopelessly imbalanced because flash had a 71 % win rate vs. Protoss and Zerg and Terrans had all the legitimate bonjwas. We all know that Terran was in fact the strongest race at the highest level of BW, but only Flash made Terran look actually imbalanced. Look at Bisu? Everyone at the time thought Protoss was trash, then Bisu comes in and plays at a higher level and flips the match up completely on it's head. Was Protoss really that weak? Or was Bisu simply that good? The top 2, who have Kespa backgrounds etc
My only point was it I’m an amateur of Code S level I have to both compete with all that rigorous training, racial imbalance (if it exists) etc, it’s a waste of time.
If Protoss players in Korea especially can earn a living without having to beat Rogue/Dark etc that’s another thing
GSL and ST especially have disgustingly low prize pools considering the quality of participants
|
Czech Republic12117 Posts
On December 14 2021 04:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2021 03:50 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 14 2021 03:12 WombaT wrote:On December 14 2021 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 13 2021 07:54 kingism wrote: To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss... This post is dumb af lol Bit harsh/rude. Whether the central premise is accurate is another thing, I’m not sure it is, for the record. But the logical follow-through is solid. In a competitive field if your faction sucks you’re more likely to depart, and others are less likely to follow in your footsteps. Any argument to the contrary would be counter intuitive to the point of being contrarian for contrariness’ sake. They struck the odd big blow, but pre-military Classic, Stats. sOs, Zest and herO couldn’t break the best Zergs where it counted in the biggest tournaments, and weren’t able to for years. So now the hope is that these players, who couldn’t manage it before a military-enforced break, can manage it afterwards? There’s nothing close to that talent emerging either, it’s just Trap. Zoun is very good, he may get better but he’s not a Stats or a Classic If I’m a good Protoss amateur player in Korea, I’m staying an amateur player. There’s not enough money in the Korean scene to make the necessary transition possible. Indeed if I’m a good amateur of any race. To close the gap with 6-10 year veteran pro gamers, you need a Ro24 or an early exit in Super Tournament to pay the bills, which it just doesn’t, you have to immediately be good enough to make consistent deep runs or it’s not economically viable, and no amateur prospect is that good off the bat. Zoun is the closest we have to a ‘new’ player in that respect but he’s played full time in Kespa houses, and chose to go to military early which is why we didn’t see him break through, he’s still a graduate of the Kespa system. Is it really harsh or rude though? Deacon already highlighted exactly why this post is dumb and I agree with him, the top 2 Protoss players have definitely made some cash this year. Honestly man you take Serral's or Rogue's final wins out of the picture and instantly the balance picture looks alot more reasonable. Since both of them have taken 3 out of the 21, that's 6 1st place finishes between 2 people, if you take either one of them out, Zerg took a total of 6 out of 21 first place finishes, less then even 33%. Premier TournamentsI've already stated countless times that I believe a QoL change is in order for PvZ, but to sit there and say that all Protoss players are wasting their time because they'll never beat Serral or Rogue (2 of the quite literal best players of all time) because of racial imbalance or that Zerg is just hopelessly unbeatable is just stupid. Rogue and Serral look unbeatable, compare even Dark and Reynor and they are not on their level. If Dark and Reynor were the poster children for the Zerg race right now this thread would probably not even exist because there would be 6 less Zerg finishes, bringing the total down for 2021 to 3 out of 21 tournaments and everyone would say, "Well nobody can reliably beat Trap or Maru so Zerg MUST be weak." It's like saying Brood War was hopelessly imbalanced because flash had a 71 % win rate vs. Protoss and Zerg and Terrans had all the legitimate bonjwas. We all know that Terran was in fact the strongest race at the highest level of BW, but only Flash made Terran look actually imbalanced. Look at Bisu? Everyone at the time thought Protoss was trash, then Bisu comes in and plays at a higher level and flips the match up completely on it's head. Was Protoss really that weak? Or was Bisu simply that good? The top 2, who have Kespa backgrounds etc My only point was it I’m an amateur of Code S level I have to both compete with all that rigorous training, racial imbalance (if it exists) etc, it’s a waste of time. If Protoss players in Korea especially can earn a living without having to beat Rogue/Dark etc that’s another thing GSL and ST especially have disgustingly low prize pools considering the quality of participants Let's digest it then, shall we?
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left. Best Protosses are leaving for greener pastures. Sure, military calling is super greener. Especially when you're one of the top dogs in this game. Double especially if you're Classic or Stats who wasn't hit as much with this shitty meta. But mentioned were Parting, Stats and etc., whoever that is. Both Parting and Zest made solid amount of money THIS year. This year, which is so bad for Protoss(and remember - Trap won everything). So that's directly false, they're not leaving this game because it doesn't pay. If you're at the top and you can deliver solid results it pays - case in point Parting or Zoun.
Now the bullshit that if the race is strong, it attracts talent while the weak race attracts no one. Well, I would dare to say that current SC2 system is attracting barely anyone, because - to put it simply - you don't have much chances to get any good money. Why? Why oh why are the RO8 almost identical across all regions, I wonder? Unless you can pay your bills via streaming, team and RO16 money, you should not go into SC2.
Now to the - mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. - well, they're right. But not in the point that why would you play Protoss. But why would you play SC2? If you're supertalented there are better playing games. This isn't about Protoss, to get to the top in this game you have to sunk in months of preparations to get to the top so your "spidey senses" are tingeling at the right time. So you know shit just from how much gas was mined and how many workers are at the base. This isn't easy and requires some time. If you're that good that time is better invested in another game, because you won't just beat Maru, Reynor, Trap or Scarlett just because you're a miraculously good player. Talent isn't everything, especially in this game.
you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments). Already covered, bullshit.
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft. Can you ask Lilbow how this worked? IIRC he returned to the SC2. FFS they mention Parting who returned from LoL to SC2. The post mentions both Parting and LoL and they won't realize that he returned.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss... Again, it's not about Protoss, if you;re good you will make enough money. It's about SC2 itself. The future is uncertain and if you're a talented gamer, you should look elsewhere as the time investment to get to the top may be invalid in 2 years.
Anyway, that post is garbage. And that's a praise
Edit> this isn't to say the game is dead. The future is uncertain, maybe in 2023 ESL will lower the budget to 70 % and it will be much harder to pay the bills from SC2. I don't want it to happen, maybe it won't happen, but unless the game is really great fun for the "new talent" they should change the game while they can Unfortunately for the poster it's usually the other way around. Holy shit, I'm good, hey, some team is contacting me, wicked sick!
Also would love to know if the Protoss dominance in the GM is that "Protoss bad = no new talent" shift. Because to me it seems, that if anything, Protoss talent is the biggest in years.And yeah, I realize that GM ladder isn't pro talent, but these people are legit good and can be low tier pros... which is exactly the counter point to that nonsense.
Edit 2> And yes, because the top players are so fucking good and you need so much time to get to the results which pay money, we see barely any new talent for ANY race. Be it Terran, ZergStronkFanboi!, Protoss or Random. Imagine who you have to face to get money in Korea or Europe... the entering barrier is so big it cannot be hidden in the Marian Trench. (or w/e its English name is )
|
Northern Ireland20854 Posts
Needs more annoying smilies
|
On December 14 2021 03:50 Beelzebub1 wrote: Since both of them have taken 3 out of the 21, that's 6 1st place finishes between 2 people, if you take either one of them out, Zerg took a total of 6 out of 21 first place finishes, less then even 33%.
Mate, if you take out 3 tournaments from 21, you have 18 left, not 21.
And I count 10 Zerg wins in that Premier list so you end up with 7/18 if you remove one top Zerg, not 6/21, or close to 40%. That's right, even taking out Zerg wins arbitrarily for no logical reason, Zerg is still overperforming.
Also, if you remove the top Terran you get 2 out of 19, and if you take out the top Protoss you get 2 out of 16 (by your count here, obviously I do not include Neeb and Clem's foreigner-exclusive championships in my own accounts)
What are you trying to argue here? Taking out the top performers of each race still shows Zerg to be performing best, so nothing's changed.
Why are you trying to remove Rogue or Serral's wins unilaterally? If you don't apply the modification evenly across the data, obviously you're going to end up with nonsense results. I don't even understand why you're treating them like massive outliers? They're not.
This year, Serral and Rogue have won 30% of their race's premier championships. Clem has won 50% of his. Trap has won over 70% of his.
Serral and Rogue combine to be less of an outlier than Trap.
And that's, again, including foreigner-exclusive tournament data, which I wouldn't.
Zerg is doing plenty fine without its biggest names. Reynor, Dark and Scarlett combine for as many premiers as the entire Terran race in 2021.
Your post is not just illogical, it contains a lot of fundamental errors.
|
My apologies if this has been mentioned in this thread, I haven't read every post, but the metas where Protoss are favored tend to be...not all that fun. The blink all-in meta might have been even worse than infestor-brood lord. Protoss turtling up and destroying Terran in the late-game because ghosts were radically underpowered compared to templars, causing the "pull the boys" meta, wasn't that fun. The Soul Train meta -- well, I actually kinda enjoyed that, but any meta built around one build is going to either get patched or figured out eventually. Until not too long ago, PvZ was an awful meta because Protoss essentially had to find a timing.
I'll come out and admit it -- Protoss is my least favorite race to watch. A tricky Protoss early-game strategy or a late-game deathball with storm (maybe the least interesting spell in the game) just isn't as fun to watch as a Terran hitting a perfectly-executed tank push or dropping all over the place and killing their opponent with 1,000 cuts, or even a Zerg parrying attacks, expanding, and hitting their opponent with runbys until they become too big to fail.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've been watching this game for a long time and it sure feels like the skill gap between Protoss players doing the same build and Terrans or Zergs doing the same build is smaller -- the "fun" thing about Protoss is that they have way more tools in their toolbox than any other race, while Terran and Zerg have to work within a relatively thin amount of strategies. And when a specific Protoss strategy is strong enough to take the race to the top, more often than not the game just seems less fun to watch than something like Marine/Medivac/Marauder/Mine or Muta/Ling/Bane. This is why the best Protoss players have consistently been on the cutting edge of the meta or masters of the early-game push (Zest, sOs, Parting/MC), stacking up more wins than the "macro" protosses such as Rain (who I would have liked to see in LoTV,) Stats, and now Trap.
TL;DR -- the race was designed in such a way that when its players have a clear path to the top, the game becomes less fun to watch and a patch usually follows quickly after. Also, I do agree with the sentiment on here that Protoss is easier to "master" than the other 2 races, but has a lower overall skill ceiling when playing a straight-up game.
|
Protoss isn'T weak. Zerg is just overally better than two races and has more alternative.
when zerg plays vs terran , terran players are getting exhausted . then their performance and shape are getting decrease and they play worse and worse. They can't be in the same level normally they do. because for terrran playing tvz is much mor tiring for terran then zerg.
when zerg plays vs protoss escipally in late game zerg is one step ahead. you cant explain serral 4-0 trap results with only serral is better. i would understand 4-2 or 4-3 . they are quite similar level players. this 4-0 is points something.
if it would be reverse for example final was pvp and in semi trap would beat very very easy to serral 4-0 i would think the same way. i have watched the series . trap was even never close to win a game.
|
On December 14 2021 04:26 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2021 04:08 WombaT wrote:On December 14 2021 03:50 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 14 2021 03:12 WombaT wrote:On December 14 2021 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 13 2021 07:54 kingism wrote: To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss... This post is dumb af lol Bit harsh/rude. Whether the central premise is accurate is another thing, I’m not sure it is, for the record. But the logical follow-through is solid. In a competitive field if your faction sucks you’re more likely to depart, and others are less likely to follow in your footsteps. Any argument to the contrary would be counter intuitive to the point of being contrarian for contrariness’ sake. They struck the odd big blow, but pre-military Classic, Stats. sOs, Zest and herO couldn’t break the best Zergs where it counted in the biggest tournaments, and weren’t able to for years. So now the hope is that these players, who couldn’t manage it before a military-enforced break, can manage it afterwards? There’s nothing close to that talent emerging either, it’s just Trap. Zoun is very good, he may get better but he’s not a Stats or a Classic If I’m a good Protoss amateur player in Korea, I’m staying an amateur player. There’s not enough money in the Korean scene to make the necessary transition possible. Indeed if I’m a good amateur of any race. To close the gap with 6-10 year veteran pro gamers, you need a Ro24 or an early exit in Super Tournament to pay the bills, which it just doesn’t, you have to immediately be good enough to make consistent deep runs or it’s not economically viable, and no amateur prospect is that good off the bat. Zoun is the closest we have to a ‘new’ player in that respect but he’s played full time in Kespa houses, and chose to go to military early which is why we didn’t see him break through, he’s still a graduate of the Kespa system. Is it really harsh or rude though? Deacon already highlighted exactly why this post is dumb and I agree with him, the top 2 Protoss players have definitely made some cash this year. Honestly man you take Serral's or Rogue's final wins out of the picture and instantly the balance picture looks alot more reasonable. Since both of them have taken 3 out of the 21, that's 6 1st place finishes between 2 people, if you take either one of them out, Zerg took a total of 6 out of 21 first place finishes, less then even 33%. Premier TournamentsI've already stated countless times that I believe a QoL change is in order for PvZ, but to sit there and say that all Protoss players are wasting their time because they'll never beat Serral or Rogue (2 of the quite literal best players of all time) because of racial imbalance or that Zerg is just hopelessly unbeatable is just stupid. Rogue and Serral look unbeatable, compare even Dark and Reynor and they are not on their level. If Dark and Reynor were the poster children for the Zerg race right now this thread would probably not even exist because there would be 6 less Zerg finishes, bringing the total down for 2021 to 3 out of 21 tournaments and everyone would say, "Well nobody can reliably beat Trap or Maru so Zerg MUST be weak." It's like saying Brood War was hopelessly imbalanced because flash had a 71 % win rate vs. Protoss and Zerg and Terrans had all the legitimate bonjwas. We all know that Terran was in fact the strongest race at the highest level of BW, but only Flash made Terran look actually imbalanced. Look at Bisu? Everyone at the time thought Protoss was trash, then Bisu comes in and plays at a higher level and flips the match up completely on it's head. Was Protoss really that weak? Or was Bisu simply that good? The top 2, who have Kespa backgrounds etc My only point was it I’m an amateur of Code S level I have to both compete with all that rigorous training, racial imbalance (if it exists) etc, it’s a waste of time. If Protoss players in Korea especially can earn a living without having to beat Rogue/Dark etc that’s another thing GSL and ST especially have disgustingly low prize pools considering the quality of participants Let's digest it then, shall we? Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left. Best Protosses are leaving for greener pastures. Sure, military calling is super greener. Especially when you're one of the top dogs in this game. Double especially if you're Classic or Stats who wasn't hit as much with this shitty meta. But mentioned were Parting, Stats and etc., whoever that is. Both Parting and Zest made solid amount of money THIS year. This year, which is so bad for Protoss(and remember - Trap won everything). So that's directly false, they're not leaving this game because it doesn't pay. If you're at the top and you can deliver solid results it pays - case in point Parting or Zoun. Now the bullshit that if the race is strong, it attracts talent while the weak race attracts no one. Well, I would dare to say that current SC2 system is attracting barely anyone, because - to put it simply - you don't have much chances to get any good money. Why? Why oh why are the RO8 almost identical across all regions, I wonder? Unless you can pay your bills via streaming, team and RO16 money, you should not go into SC2. Now to the - mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. - well, they're right. But not in the point that why would you play Protoss. But why would you play SC2? If you're supertalented there are better playing games. This isn't about Protoss, to get to the top in this game you have to sunk in months of preparations to get to the top so your "spidey senses" are tingeling at the right time. So you know shit just from how much gas was mined and how many workers are at the base. This isn't easy and requires some time. If you're that good that time is better invested in another game, because you won't just beat Maru, Reynor, Trap or Scarlett just because you're a miraculously good player. Talent isn't everything, especially in this game. you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments). Already covered, bullshit. A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft. Can you ask Lilbow how this worked? IIRC he returned to the SC2. FFS they mention Parting who returned from LoL to SC2. The post mentions both Parting and LoL and they won't realize that he returned. I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss...Again, it's not about Protoss, if you;re good you will make enough money. It's about SC2 itself. The future is uncertain and if you're a talented gamer, you should look elsewhere as the time investment to get to the top may be invalid in 2 years. Anyway, that post is garbage. And that's a praise Edit> this isn't to say the game is dead. The future is uncertain, maybe in 2023 ESL will lower the budget to 70 % and it will be much harder to pay the bills from SC2. I don't want it to happen, maybe it won't happen, but unless the game is really great fun for the "new talent" they should change the game while they can Unfortunately for the poster it's usually the other way around. Holy shit, I'm good, hey, some team is contacting me, wicked sick! Also would love to know if the Protoss dominance in the GM is that "Protoss bad = no new talent" shift. Because to me it seems, that if anything, Protoss talent is the biggest in years.And yeah, I realize that GM ladder isn't pro talent, but these people are legit good and can be low tier pros... which is exactly the counter point to that nonsense. Edit 2> And yes, because the top players are so fucking good and you need so much time to get to the results which pay money, we see barely any new talent for ANY race. Be it Terran, ZergStronkFanboi!, Protoss or Random. Imagine who you have to face to get money in Korea or Europe... the entering barrier is so big it cannot be hidden in the Marian Trench. (or w/e its English name is )
Couple things: 1) I find lots of issues with wt you wrote here, but hey nothing wrong with having your own (typical zerg boi) opinion. I stand by every word I wrote in my original post.
2) To the zerg bois who got offended and called me and my post dumb af and bullshit, I'll just say that you all might be way smarter than me, but having watched starcraft for 10+ years, experienced many cycles in the meta + having gone to a certain university called Stanford, i would hope that some of wt i wrote make at least a little bit of sense lol
3) I stand by my conviction that, to put it bluntly, in the current meta protoss playing to his fullest ability will not be able to beat a top zerg in a best of 7 if the zerg doesnt make enough mistakes. Protoss NEEDS zerg to make enough mistakes to win. This is a huge turn off for anyone playing protoss wanting to turn pro. Basically, u can't win no matter how good you are and how much u practice unless your opponent makes enough mistakes. You can read the earlier comments in this thread to understand why I think so. To earn a living completely dependent on other's mistakes instead of your own ability? Hmm no thanks lol.
4) Serral and Rogue are great players + them playing the best race => Serral and Rogue keep on winning and look invincible. The key point here is that they are playing the strongest race. They will definitely be far less dominant if they played as protoss. I am convinced that, even with years of practice, Serral or Rogue playing as protoss would 100% lose to Serral or Rogue playing as zerg in a bo7 in the current meta. Again, reasons are given in 3) and the earlier parts of the thread.
5) What I think is impossible to live off of might be a decent amount of money for someone without aspirations, not for me to judge. But don't forget, these players have to split their tournament winnings with the team too, which makes the already low and unattractive amount of earnings from finishes outside of top 4 at most premier tournaments even less so at the end of the day.
|
2) To the zerg bois who got offended and called me and my post dumb af and bullshit, I'll just say that you all might be way smarter than me, but having watched starcraft for 10+ years, experienced many cycles in the meta + having gone to a certain university called Stanford, i would hope that some of wt i wrote make at least a little bit of sense lol
Your post was dumb because it came off as a shameless cry fest, not because it didn't have a single merit to it. I also probably could have said something more polite if I disagreed as well so apologies, he who throws gas on the fire is also guilty.
I've been in the scene since day 1 too man, you aren't the only one who cares about the health of the meta game. The situation with Protoss is tough right now, it's hard to buff a race that's hugely represented below the tip top level of play but weak at the very highest level. You run the risk of evening out the win rates for 0.01 % of people who play SC2 in exchange for making Protoss even more dominant on ladder.
Not that I think that's fair at all, that's why I think it's a tough situation even if there was someone in charge of balancing SC2 that had the qualifications to do so (at least GM level random play imo)
Then again, it's hard for anything to get done when the room that has access to the Starcraft 2 servers has had the doors locked with a, "do not disturb" sign on the door knob for over a year now. Still amazes me that Blizzard hasn't even released any form of a comment or statement to the community regarding their thoughts on ZvP at the top level.
|
On December 12 2021 13:55 Seacow wrote: I haven't read the entire thread, so this might already have been brought up: I get the feeling Protoss is struggling because it can't skirmish with fast units in early-mid. Terran can run around with stimmed bio and pick em up with boosted medivacs, Zerg can run around with speedlings or speed roach/ravager. Both T and Z can disengage with no or minimal losses, P can't (recall is slow and costs a lot of energy). This means P leaving their base is a commitment. The result of this is that P has fewer OPPORTUNITIES to inflict damage in the mid game - instead it comes down to committed timing attacks (in particular in PvZ) where a bad engagement = loss.
In short: Gateway units offer less opportunities for mid game damage compared to T/Z. The mid game offensive that does exist - adept glaives v Z, blink stalker v T - relies on specific timings and is not equivalent to Z/T's sustained opportunities.
What do you think about this reasoning?
I think thats extremely good reasoning, precisely puts into words what I felt when I played protoss at a high mmr. And there's another huge consequence that this causes... since protoss is very limited by this its much easier for zerg to scout and prepare properly in advance and abuse droning up heavily at times when the protoss is incapable of seriously attacking. Then you add in lurkers being sick against protoss ground...
I feel this may be by far the largest design flaw that causes protoss to be the weakest race at high level play
|
On December 13 2021 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2021 01:13 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:49 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:42 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote: Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao) TvZ - 54% PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly. Thats why observation, logic, and actual in game experience with the races at a high level are important instead of just being a pure data nerd. You hear that all the time there's not enough data to tell this, not enough data to claim that... There's no level of observation or logic that will allow you to answer this type of question, and if you've ever heard 80% of pros talk you know that in game experience increases your bias rather than the quality of your data. That I can't agree with, there's almost always a way to answer anything correctly that we can directly experience. Wombat and Fanatic Templar had very good posts to counter you. Also the simplest strong evidence of protoss's weakness in this matchup is Serral. I'm watching him 4-0 Trap right now in TSL 8, the only protoss who has been very successful this year. Serral almost always absolutely demolishes protoss in particular while he struggles plenty vs terran and zerg. He shows just how helpless protoss is when zerg plays correctly. I don't know what argument you think you're answering but it's not the argument I have. It is obvious that protoss is by miles the weakest race at the very highest level of play. This doesn't answer the question of whether it happens because protoss is weak or because the few people who have enough skill to be at the highest level of play, let's say 5 or 6 people, just coincidentally all happened to not pick protoss at the start of the game years ago. This is a question that can't be answered. We cannot directly experience a world in which Serral chose to play protoss instead of zerg. That's the entirety of the issue. Maybe if Serral was protoss and Trap was zerg Serral would still have 4-0ed in this match, and we would be having a thread about how zerg can't win at the top level. Or maybe not. It's impossible to say. We don't have to say it, however, since either way the end result is that protoss is not winning, and you and I are rooting for protoss. As a consequence, I once again did the sane thing this afternoon and I didn't watch Trap play vs Serral, which means I had a much happier afternoon than you
First of all if a race is strong enough its extremely unlikely the good people just decided not to pick it, generally player strength will average out pretty closely with similarly strong races. There's too large of a player pool for that.
We don't need to directly experience such a world, the player who is taking 70% of protoss tournament wins (Trap) consistently being crushed like a bronze league noob demonstrates the race is just bad.
|
Czech Republic12117 Posts
On December 14 2021 16:31 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 13:55 Seacow wrote: I haven't read the entire thread, so this might already have been brought up: I get the feeling Protoss is struggling because it can't skirmish with fast units in early-mid. Terran can run around with stimmed bio and pick em up with boosted medivacs, Zerg can run around with speedlings or speed roach/ravager. Both T and Z can disengage with no or minimal losses, P can't (recall is slow and costs a lot of energy). This means P leaving their base is a commitment. The result of this is that P has fewer OPPORTUNITIES to inflict damage in the mid game - instead it comes down to committed timing attacks (in particular in PvZ) where a bad engagement = loss.
In short: Gateway units offer less opportunities for mid game damage compared to T/Z. The mid game offensive that does exist - adept glaives v Z, blink stalker v T - relies on specific timings and is not equivalent to Z/T's sustained opportunities.
What do you think about this reasoning? I think thats extremely good reasoning, precisely puts into words what I felt when I played protoss at a high mmr. And there's another huge consequence that this causes... since protoss is very limited by this its much easier for zerg to scout and prepare properly in advance and abuse droning up heavily at times when the protoss is incapable of seriously attacking. Then you add in lurkers being sick against protoss ground... I feel this may be by far the largest design flaw that causes protoss to be the weakest race at high level play Well, duh! Gateway is the biggest issue of Protoss. It's been discussed on multiple ocassions even in this thread
|
Czech Republic12117 Posts
On December 14 2021 11:41 kingism wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2021 04:26 deacon.frost wrote:On December 14 2021 04:08 WombaT wrote:On December 14 2021 03:50 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 14 2021 03:12 WombaT wrote:On December 14 2021 02:32 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 13 2021 07:54 kingism wrote: To the zerg fanbois who say that the problem with protoss being so bad at the top level is not the race but the players:
Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left.
Talent and the power of a race have a reflexive relationship. If a race is stronger than others, its best players will stay on and it will continue to attract the best new talent. Conversely, if a race is weak, their players leave and new talent will hesitate to join.
I mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. You know that: 1) in this meta (and likely the rest of SC2's future because blizzard won't patch the game anymore) you will never ever beat a top zerg in a best of 7 no matter how much you practice (the matchup is just rediculously broken) 2) you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments).
A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft.
I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss... This post is dumb af lol Bit harsh/rude. Whether the central premise is accurate is another thing, I’m not sure it is, for the record. But the logical follow-through is solid. In a competitive field if your faction sucks you’re more likely to depart, and others are less likely to follow in your footsteps. Any argument to the contrary would be counter intuitive to the point of being contrarian for contrariness’ sake. They struck the odd big blow, but pre-military Classic, Stats. sOs, Zest and herO couldn’t break the best Zergs where it counted in the biggest tournaments, and weren’t able to for years. So now the hope is that these players, who couldn’t manage it before a military-enforced break, can manage it afterwards? There’s nothing close to that talent emerging either, it’s just Trap. Zoun is very good, he may get better but he’s not a Stats or a Classic If I’m a good Protoss amateur player in Korea, I’m staying an amateur player. There’s not enough money in the Korean scene to make the necessary transition possible. Indeed if I’m a good amateur of any race. To close the gap with 6-10 year veteran pro gamers, you need a Ro24 or an early exit in Super Tournament to pay the bills, which it just doesn’t, you have to immediately be good enough to make consistent deep runs or it’s not economically viable, and no amateur prospect is that good off the bat. Zoun is the closest we have to a ‘new’ player in that respect but he’s played full time in Kespa houses, and chose to go to military early which is why we didn’t see him break through, he’s still a graduate of the Kespa system. Is it really harsh or rude though? Deacon already highlighted exactly why this post is dumb and I agree with him, the top 2 Protoss players have definitely made some cash this year. Honestly man you take Serral's or Rogue's final wins out of the picture and instantly the balance picture looks alot more reasonable. Since both of them have taken 3 out of the 21, that's 6 1st place finishes between 2 people, if you take either one of them out, Zerg took a total of 6 out of 21 first place finishes, less then even 33%. Premier TournamentsI've already stated countless times that I believe a QoL change is in order for PvZ, but to sit there and say that all Protoss players are wasting their time because they'll never beat Serral or Rogue (2 of the quite literal best players of all time) because of racial imbalance or that Zerg is just hopelessly unbeatable is just stupid. Rogue and Serral look unbeatable, compare even Dark and Reynor and they are not on their level. If Dark and Reynor were the poster children for the Zerg race right now this thread would probably not even exist because there would be 6 less Zerg finishes, bringing the total down for 2021 to 3 out of 21 tournaments and everyone would say, "Well nobody can reliably beat Trap or Maru so Zerg MUST be weak." It's like saying Brood War was hopelessly imbalanced because flash had a 71 % win rate vs. Protoss and Zerg and Terrans had all the legitimate bonjwas. We all know that Terran was in fact the strongest race at the highest level of BW, but only Flash made Terran look actually imbalanced. Look at Bisu? Everyone at the time thought Protoss was trash, then Bisu comes in and plays at a higher level and flips the match up completely on it's head. Was Protoss really that weak? Or was Bisu simply that good? The top 2, who have Kespa backgrounds etc My only point was it I’m an amateur of Code S level I have to both compete with all that rigorous training, racial imbalance (if it exists) etc, it’s a waste of time. If Protoss players in Korea especially can earn a living without having to beat Rogue/Dark etc that’s another thing GSL and ST especially have disgustingly low prize pools considering the quality of participants Let's digest it then, shall we? Perhaps its the other way around: BECAUSE protoss as a race is so bad at the highest level, the best players (Parting, Stats etc) are slowly leaving the scene for better opportunities (they prob would do something else after military), so protoss has no more talent left. Best Protosses are leaving for greener pastures. Sure, military calling is super greener. Especially when you're one of the top dogs in this game. Double especially if you're Classic or Stats who wasn't hit as much with this shitty meta. But mentioned were Parting, Stats and etc., whoever that is. Both Parting and Zest made solid amount of money THIS year. This year, which is so bad for Protoss(and remember - Trap won everything). So that's directly false, they're not leaving this game because it doesn't pay. If you're at the top and you can deliver solid results it pays - case in point Parting or Zoun. Now the bullshit that if the race is strong, it attracts talent while the weak race attracts no one. Well, I would dare to say that current SC2 system is attracting barely anyone, because - to put it simply - you don't have much chances to get any good money. Why? Why oh why are the RO8 almost identical across all regions, I wonder? Unless you can pay your bills via streaming, team and RO16 money, you should not go into SC2. Now to the - mean think about it, if you are a super talented gamer, why on earth would you spend your best professional years playing protoss!? Come on, lets be real here. - well, they're right. But not in the point that why would you play Protoss. But why would you play SC2? If you're supertalented there are better playing games. This isn't about Protoss, to get to the top in this game you have to sunk in months of preparations to get to the top so your "spidey senses" are tingeling at the right time. So you know shit just from how much gas was mined and how many workers are at the base. This isn't easy and requires some time. If you're that good that time is better invested in another game, because you won't just beat Maru, Reynor, Trap or Scarlett just because you're a miraculously good player. Talent isn't everything, especially in this game. you can't make a healthy living by always being outside of top 4 in all tournaments (you make like couple thousand dollars for each big tournament, and there are only a couple big tournaments). Already covered, bullshit. A talented gamer with at least an average IQ will probably not be playing protoss in starcraft. Just doesn't make any sense. If you are that talented, you can easily make 1000x playing LOL or some other popular esports game. As for the top zergs, it makes sense monetarily to stay in the scene, i mean its basically Rogue, Serral and Dark splitting the starcraft 2 tournament winnings 3 ways between them (sorry and Maru). Even if thats not a lot of money, that is still mildly sustainable as a source of income for them to keep their talent in starcraft. Can you ask Lilbow how this worked? IIRC he returned to the SC2. FFS they mention Parting who returned from LoL to SC2. The post mentions both Parting and LoL and they won't realize that he returned. I just don't understand why a talented gamer would waste his best professional years playing protoss...Again, it's not about Protoss, if you;re good you will make enough money. It's about SC2 itself. The future is uncertain and if you're a talented gamer, you should look elsewhere as the time investment to get to the top may be invalid in 2 years. Anyway, that post is garbage. And that's a praise Edit> this isn't to say the game is dead. The future is uncertain, maybe in 2023 ESL will lower the budget to 70 % and it will be much harder to pay the bills from SC2. I don't want it to happen, maybe it won't happen, but unless the game is really great fun for the "new talent" they should change the game while they can Unfortunately for the poster it's usually the other way around. Holy shit, I'm good, hey, some team is contacting me, wicked sick! Also would love to know if the Protoss dominance in the GM is that "Protoss bad = no new talent" shift. Because to me it seems, that if anything, Protoss talent is the biggest in years.And yeah, I realize that GM ladder isn't pro talent, but these people are legit good and can be low tier pros... which is exactly the counter point to that nonsense. Edit 2> And yes, because the top players are so fucking good and you need so much time to get to the results which pay money, we see barely any new talent for ANY race. Be it Terran, ZergStronkFanboi!, Protoss or Random. Imagine who you have to face to get money in Korea or Europe... the entering barrier is so big it cannot be hidden in the Marian Trench. (or w/e its English name is ) Couple things: 1) I find lots of issues with wt you wrote here, but hey nothing wrong with having your own (typical zerg boi) opinion. I stand by every word I wrote in my original post. 2) To the zerg bois who got offended and called me and my post dumb af and bullshit, I'll just say that you all might be way smarter than me, but having watched starcraft for 10+ years, experienced many cycles in the meta + having gone to a certain university called Stanford, i would hope that some of wt i wrote make at least a little bit of sense lol 3) I stand by my conviction that, to put it bluntly, in the current meta protoss playing to his fullest ability will not be able to beat a top zerg in a best of 7 if the zerg doesnt make enough mistakes. Protoss NEEDS zerg to make enough mistakes to win. This is a huge turn off for anyone playing protoss wanting to turn pro. Basically, u can't win no matter how good you are and how much u practice unless your opponent makes enough mistakes. You can read the earlier comments in this thread to understand why I think so. To earn a living completely dependent on other's mistakes instead of your own ability? Hmm no thanks lol. 4) Serral and Rogue are great players + them playing the best race => Serral and Rogue keep on winning and look invincible. The key point here is that they are playing the strongest race. They will definitely be far less dominant if they played as protoss. I am convinced that, even with years of practice, Serral or Rogue playing as protoss would 100% lose to Serral or Rogue playing as zerg in a bo7 in the current meta. Again, reasons are given in 3) and the earlier parts of the thread. 5) What I think is impossible to live off of might be a decent amount of money for someone without aspirations, not for me to judge. But don't forget, these players have to split their tournament winnings with the team too, which makes the already low and unattractive amount of earnings from finishes outside of top 4 at most premier tournaments even less so at the end of the day. Oh noez, imma zerg boi while playing Protoss(or random) and being a Maru fanboy. DAMN, that personal attack broke my heart. Didn't read after that, as if the first thing you need to address is to name your discussing opponent, well, why discuss, right?
Edit> also about the "players will choose zerg because it's stronk" - to my knowledge the only rece changers were Gumiho - Random -> Terran and Classic - Terran -> Protoss. All the best Zergs started playing the race before it was stronk.
|
On December 14 2021 07:44 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I'll come out and admit it -- Protoss is my least favorite race to watch. A tricky Protoss early-game strategy or a late-game deathball with storm (maybe the least interesting spell in the game) just isn't as fun to watch as a Terran hitting a perfectly-executed tank push
This is so fucking hypocritical to say with straight face that terran cheese/allins are more enjoyable than protoss cheese/allins.
|
On December 14 2021 16:53 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2021 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On December 13 2021 01:13 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:49 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:42 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote: Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao) TvZ - 54% PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly. Thats why observation, logic, and actual in game experience with the races at a high level are important instead of just being a pure data nerd. You hear that all the time there's not enough data to tell this, not enough data to claim that... There's no level of observation or logic that will allow you to answer this type of question, and if you've ever heard 80% of pros talk you know that in game experience increases your bias rather than the quality of your data. That I can't agree with, there's almost always a way to answer anything correctly that we can directly experience. Wombat and Fanatic Templar had very good posts to counter you. Also the simplest strong evidence of protoss's weakness in this matchup is Serral. I'm watching him 4-0 Trap right now in TSL 8, the only protoss who has been very successful this year. Serral almost always absolutely demolishes protoss in particular while he struggles plenty vs terran and zerg. He shows just how helpless protoss is when zerg plays correctly. I don't know what argument you think you're answering but it's not the argument I have. It is obvious that protoss is by miles the weakest race at the very highest level of play. This doesn't answer the question of whether it happens because protoss is weak or because the few people who have enough skill to be at the highest level of play, let's say 5 or 6 people, just coincidentally all happened to not pick protoss at the start of the game years ago. This is a question that can't be answered. We cannot directly experience a world in which Serral chose to play protoss instead of zerg. That's the entirety of the issue. Maybe if Serral was protoss and Trap was zerg Serral would still have 4-0ed in this match, and we would be having a thread about how zerg can't win at the top level. Or maybe not. It's impossible to say. We don't have to say it, however, since either way the end result is that protoss is not winning, and you and I are rooting for protoss. As a consequence, I once again did the sane thing this afternoon and I didn't watch Trap play vs Serral, which means I had a much happier afternoon than you First of all if a race is strong enough its extremely unlikely the good people just decided not to pick it, generally player strength will average out pretty closely with similarly strong races. There's too large of a player pool for that. We don't need to directly experience such a world, the player who is taking 70% of protoss tournament wins (Trap) consistently being crushed like a bronze league noob demonstrates the race is just bad.
Not really true, because we're talking about a very limited sample size of players. But again I'm not sure why you're so invested in the difference between the two, it weakens your argument for no discernable gain.
|
|
|
|