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After having very long time of Toss never winning anything Trap finally got some victories. And Zest has gone berserk during his last year before military, playing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.
But. That was just them and not any way a domination of Toss or Trap.
I fear the younger players will mostly not choose toss as a race when they look at the last years. Maxpax is very good, but he is not near being a contender to any title (big titles, that is). And for the older players... it feels like you have to be like PartinG that is a legend and a successful streamer and earn some money of of that.
Toss has always been the punching bag as the OP race because of the effect that a disruptor shot can have or a storm (and other units). This has been a tradition in sc2 as long as I have followed the scene. Toss for sure has many strong units, and strong timings (ridiculous even) over the years I do not deny that.
Showtime seems focused and hardworking and one of the absolut best toss in EU but is not making much. Goblin showed some progress but ended up being not as motivated.
Will it end with the occasional decent run from some toss making some great play and having some luck, but mostly have to rely on being a streamer?
I fear it will still have some players left being decent, still playing cause they are good at the game and they do not have any other better options at the time.
How do you think Toss will manage in the future?
As a person who love sc2 and toss mostly (but not only ofc), i am biased, but also very frustrated by the situation.
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76 Posts
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top
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What future? When the pros who are still playing now retire, only amateur tournaments from time to time and battle. net will be left. All races are fine there
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No there is no hope for Protoss. If you do the research there is a swedish Zerg named hOpe and a Korean Terran named HOpe.
Be the change you want to see.
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https://gall.dcinside.com/mgallery/board/view/?id=sc2&no=954659 (use google translate)
According to this, Korean protoss has never won a tier 1 tournament since 2017 and since K-protoss are mostly better than foreignors I think there's really no hope. And as far as I remember yes I don't even remember the last time protoss won a tier 1 tournament. As a protoss fan who doesn't play anymore and just watch pro scenes I'm so over watching SC2 in which I know my favourite race will never win anything above tier 2 and it's been years. I think protoss fans at this point are entitled to a bit of complaining for balance that will likely never be updated.
With Zest going to the army and trap aging, I think the answer to your question is no. For at least 4 years protoss has never and will never win anything tier 1. Personally I've given up and just decided to move onto AOE4 scene. I'm so tired of rooting for a team protoss that will never win in a tournament supposedly with 33% of winning. Just wondering how other protoss fans cope with this. I think the balance overall is good enough but at the top level of tier 1 I haven't seen protoss winning anything at all.
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On November 14 2021 08:18 highsis wrote:https://gall.dcinside.com/mgallery/board/view/?id=sc2&no=954659 (use google translate) According to this, Korean protoss has never won a tier 1 tournament since 2017 and since K-protoss are mostly better than foreignors I think there's really no hope. And as far as I remember yes I don't even remember the last time protoss won a tier 1 tournament. As a protoss fan who doesn't play anymore and just watch pro scenes I'm so over watching SC2 in which I know my favourite race will never win anything above tier 2 and it's been years. I think protoss fans at this point are entitled to a bit of complaining for balance that will likely never be updated. With Zest going to the army and trap aging, I think the answer to your question is no. For at least 4 years protoss has never and will never win anything tier 1. Personally I've given up and just decided to move onto AOE4 scene. I'm so tired of rooting for a team protoss that will never win in a tournament supposedly with 33% of winning. Just wondering how other protoss fans cope with this.
 Global StarCraft II League
Worth noting that Trap won each of them, but second place was a Protoss player so a P win was guaranteed.
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On November 14 2021 08:27 IMSupervisor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 08:18 highsis wrote:https://gall.dcinside.com/mgallery/board/view/?id=sc2&no=954659 (use google translate) According to this, Korean protoss has never won a tier 1 tournament since 2017 and since K-protoss are mostly better than foreignors I think there's really no hope. And as far as I remember yes I don't even remember the last time protoss won a tier 1 tournament. As a protoss fan who doesn't play anymore and just watch pro scenes I'm so over watching SC2 in which I know my favourite race will never win anything above tier 2 and it's been years. I think protoss fans at this point are entitled to a bit of complaining for balance that will likely never be updated. With Zest going to the army and trap aging, I think the answer to your question is no. For at least 4 years protoss has never and will never win anything tier 1. Personally I've given up and just decided to move onto AOE4 scene. I'm so tired of rooting for a team protoss that will never win in a tournament supposedly with 33% of winning. Just wondering how other protoss fans cope with this. Global StarCraft II LeagueWorth noting that Trap won each of them, but second place was a Protoss player so a P win was guaranteed.
I thought ST was tier 2. Is it tier 1 tournament?
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Northern Ireland17684 Posts
Not until I get back to actively playing again anyway
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With the GM ladder so full of protoss...why are we surprised by this disparity? If Serral logs on and plays 10 games, 7 zvp 1 zvz 2 zvt I'd expect him to be much better vp than the other two races just based on practice. Could the relative low-level ease of protoss be punishing the upper tier Ps?
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I mean there isn't really a question that protoss is underperforming, the question is just whether they're underperforming because they're bad or because their race is bad. I again want to stress that it's totally possible that protoss players are just worse than other players, and if Maxpax keeps improving that will demonstrate this.
From our perspective as protoss supporters the difference between the two doesn't really matter, the end result is just that we don't get to enjoy watching the game as often as you guys do, so we end up watching it less and less. And that's fine too.
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Why havent nobody mentioned Zoun? He's more than decent and managed to reach a premier final where he just lost to a Protoss.
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There is always a weakest race at the top level of play, it's just like in Brood War where Terran was beyond a doubt the strongest race at the top level of play and Protoss was the weakest, I guess Starcraft 2 is kinda the same in that regard.
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On November 14 2021 09:44 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean there isn't really a question that protoss is underperforming, the question is just whether they're underperforming because they're bad or because their race is bad. I again want to stress that it's totally possible that protoss players are just worse than other players, and if Maxpax keeps improving that will demonstrate this.
From our perspective as protoss supporters the difference between the two doesn't really matter, the end result is just that we don't get to enjoy watching the game as often as you guys do, so we end up watching it less and less. And that's fine too.
It's almost ALWAYS the case of balance(at a particular level, not overall balance because P is undoubtedly the strongest race at amateur levels) because there isn't really anything stacked against playing protoss as opposed to other races when people choose a race to play. Statistically there are more protoss players at GM level which means they should have a larger top player pool. "It's not the balance. Your player just sucks" has been thrown around for 22 years since SC1 release and everytime there's a balance shifts those supposedly 'sheer skillz' race gets decimated when given a nerf at the top level time and time again. I'm amazed the argument didn't die yet when there are so many counter examples against it.
If protoss is great at GM level and low to mid pro but sucks at top it simply means it's strong at mid-high level and sucks at the very top level. Easy to learn, hard to master or easy to play, hard to optimize are valid arguments here.
As a protoss fan I'm watching fewer and fewer tournaments since I feel like there's no hope for P to win top tier tournaments these days, no, these years.
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On November 14 2021 11:25 Beelzebub1 wrote:
There is always a weakest race at the top level of play, it's just like in Brood War where Terran was beyond a doubt the strongest race at the top level of play and Protoss was the weakest, I guess Starcraft 2 is kinda the same in that regard.
Post-KeSPA Starleague - Zerg dominating for last 3-5 years, Flash the Tesagi Terran hope, mini just won ASL and fulfilling the
Legend of the Fall.
Toss is always the third wheel in BW. But not as bad as SC2 LoTV.
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I'm curious what the whiners here think about what the reason is why Protoss can win tier 2 tournaments but not tier 1 ones.
Zergs and Terrans don't try as hard for tier 2 tournaments?
they purposely lose them so Protoss doesn't get buffed?
A lot of them had the same player pool as tier 1 tournaments so it seems like a weird thing to complain about that Protoss doesn't win this specific kind of tournaments.
Especially when you look past the winner list on liquipedia and actually watch those tournaments and realize Protoss could've easily won a couple of those.
They have reached the finals often so I guess the Protoss imbalance only activates once a Protoss reaches the final of a tier 1 tournament?
To me it just seems like a coincidence that Protoss hasn't won one in so long, no statistic except the winrate of Protoss in tier 1 tournament finals supports the claim that Protoss is weak.
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France10997 Posts
On November 14 2021 09:44 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean there isn't really a question that protoss is underperforming, the question is just whether they're underperforming because they're bad or because their race is bad. I again want to stress that it's totally possible that protoss players are just worse than other players, and if Maxpax keeps improving that will demonstrate this.
From our perspective as protoss supporters the difference between the two doesn't really matter, the end result is just that we don't get to enjoy watching the game as often as you guys do, so we end up watching it less and less. And that's fine too.
How are Protoss underperforming though?
They won 6/15 premier tournaments in EPT Tour 21/22 season (40%, zerg won 6 as well so 40%, terran won 3 so 20%).
They won the most money in 2021; they are ahead in balance reports on aligulac afaik; the GM being full of Protoss.
This narrative of Protoss underperforming is hilariously false. Granted, maybe on new maps + players figuring them out might have nerfed Protoss compared to the early part of the year, but even that is not clear.
Edit: since it’s a T/Z winner protoss will be 6/16, zerg 6 or 7/16 and Terran 3 or 4/16 after this DH Season Finals. That’s still far from underperforming, especially considering other points
Sources: ESL Pro Tour/2021/22 (list of premier tournaments winners for this season)
Winnings/2021 (winnings in 2021, protoss is still comfortably ahead, especially in Korea where the top 2 spots are taken by Zest and Trap far ahead of the #3)
No sources for GM but it's easily found / heard already
Aligulac balance report showing protoss is in a good spot since a long time: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
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^ thank you for that information Poopi
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On November 14 2021 19:32 Charoisaur wrote:
I'm curious what the whiners here think about what the reason is why Protoss can win tier 2 tournaments but not tier 1 ones.
Zergs and Terrans don't try as hard for tier 2 tournaments?
? That seems like an obvious question.
In the scenario where protoss players are bad, it's just because there aren't any good tier 1 protoss players.
In the scenario where the race is bad, it's because what you need to do to be able to beat protoss is quite hard to pull off, and so only a few people in the game can master it.
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On November 14 2021 19:39 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 09:44 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean there isn't really a question that protoss is underperforming, the question is just whether they're underperforming because they're bad or because their race is bad. I again want to stress that it's totally possible that protoss players are just worse than other players, and if Maxpax keeps improving that will demonstrate this.
From our perspective as protoss supporters the difference between the two doesn't really matter, the end result is just that we don't get to enjoy watching the game as often as you guys do, so we end up watching it less and less. And that's fine too. How are Protoss underperforming though? They won 6/15 premier tournaments in EPT Tour 21/22 season (40%, zerg won 6 as well so 40%, terran won 3 so 20%). They won the most money in 2021; they are ahead in balance reports on aligulac afaik; the GM being full of Protoss. This narrative of Protoss underperforming is hilariously false. Granted, maybe on new maps + players figuring them out might have nerfed Protoss compared to the early part of the year, but even that is not clear. Edit: since it’s a T/Z winner protoss will be 6/16, zerg 6 or 7/16 and Terran 3 or 4/16 after this DH Season Finals. That’s still far from underperforming, especially considering other points Sources: ESL Pro Tour/2021/22 (list of premier tournaments winners for this season) Winnings/2021 (winnings in 2021, protoss is still comfortably ahead, especially in Korea where the top 2 spots are taken by Zest and Trap far ahead of the #3) No sources for GM but it's easily found / heard already Aligulac balance report showing protoss is in a good spot since a long time: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
Let's bet on Katowice friend, if a terran or a zerg wins you give me 50$, if a protoss wins I give you 500$, you're up?
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On November 14 2021 23:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 19:32 Charoisaur wrote:
I'm curious what the whiners here think about what the reason is why Protoss can win tier 2 tournaments but not tier 1 ones.
Zergs and Terrans don't try as hard for tier 2 tournaments? ? That seems like an obvious question. In the scenario where protoss players are bad, it's just because there aren't any good tier 1 protoss players. In the scenario where the race is bad, it's because what you need to do to be able to beat protoss is quite hard to pull off, and so only a few people in the game can master it.
not sure how that relates to my question...?
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EPT
