• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:29
CEST 12:29
KST 19:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20257Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202576RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced21BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time I offer completely free coaching services Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
[Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 730 users

The future of Protoss. Is there any hope?

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 44 45 46 Next All
aringadingding
Profile Joined September 2010
476 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-13 18:24:58
November 13 2021 18:23 GMT
#1
After having very long time of Toss never winning anything Trap finally got some victories. And Zest has gone berserk during his last year before military, playing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.

But. That was just them and not any way a domination of Toss or Trap.

I fear the younger players will mostly not choose toss as a race when they look at the last years. Maxpax is very good, but he is not near being a contender to any title (big titles, that is). And for the older players... it feels like you have to be like PartinG that is a legend and a successful streamer and earn some money of of that.

Toss has always been the punching bag as the OP race because of the effect that a disruptor shot can have or a storm (and other units). This has been a tradition in sc2 as long as I have followed the scene. Toss for sure has many strong units, and strong timings (ridiculous even) over the years I do not deny that.

Showtime seems focused and hardworking and one of the absolut best toss in EU but is not making much. Goblin showed some progress but ended up being not as motivated.

Will it end with the occasional decent run from some toss making some great play and having some luck, but mostly have to rely on being a streamer?

I fear it will still have some players left being decent, still playing cause they are good at the game and they do not have any other better options at the time.

How do you think Toss will manage in the future?
As a person who love sc2 and toss mostly (but not only ofc), i am biased, but also very frustrated by the situation.
Woosixion
Profile Joined February 2012
120 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-14 02:13:57
November 13 2021 22:12 GMT
#2
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top
the only way out is through...
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4116 Posts
November 13 2021 22:20 GMT
#3
What future? When the pros who are still playing now retire, only amateur tournaments from time to time and battle. net will be left. All races are fine there
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
feardragon
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States972 Posts
November 13 2021 23:14 GMT
#4
No there is no hope for Protoss. If you do the research there is a swedish Zerg named hOpe and a Korean Terran named HOpe.

Be the change you want to see.
Ok Starcraft 2 Commentator
highsis
Profile Joined August 2011
259 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-13 23:24:57
November 13 2021 23:18 GMT
#5
https://gall.dcinside.com/mgallery/board/view/?id=sc2&no=954659 (use google translate)

According to this, Korean protoss has never won a tier 1 tournament since 2017 and since K-protoss are mostly better than foreignors I think there's really no hope. And as far as I remember yes I don't even remember the last time protoss won a tier 1 tournament. As a protoss fan who doesn't play anymore and just watch pro scenes I'm so over watching SC2 in which I know my favourite race will never win anything above tier 2 and it's been years. I think protoss fans at this point are entitled to a bit of complaining for balance that will likely never be updated.

With Zest going to the army and trap aging, I think the answer to your question is no. For at least 4 years protoss has never and will never win anything tier 1. Personally I've given up and just decided to move onto AOE4 scene. I'm so tired of rooting for a team protoss that will never win in a tournament supposedly with 33% of winning. Just wondering how other protoss fans cope with this. I think the balance overall is good enough but at the top level of tier 1 I haven't seen protoss winning anything at all.
IMSupervisor
Profile Joined June 2016
Australia138 Posts
November 13 2021 23:27 GMT
#6
On November 14 2021 08:18 highsis wrote:
https://gall.dcinside.com/mgallery/board/view/?id=sc2&no=954659 (use google translate)

According to this, Korean protoss has never won a tier 1 tournament since 2017 and since K-protoss are mostly better than foreignors I think there's really no hope. And as far as I remember yes I don't even remember the last time protoss won a tier 1 tournament. As a protoss fan who doesn't play anymore and just watch pro scenes I'm so over watching SC2 in which I know my favourite race will never win anything above tier 2 and it's been years. I think protoss fans at this point are entitled to a bit of complaining for balance that will likely never be updated.

With Zest going to the army and trap aging, I think the answer to your question is no. For at least 4 years protoss has never and will never win anything tier 1. Personally I've given up and just decided to move onto AOE4 scene. I'm so tired of rooting for a team protoss that will never win in a tournament supposedly with 33% of winning. Just wondering how other protoss fans cope with this.


(Wiki)Global StarCraft II League

Worth noting that Trap won each of them, but second place was a Protoss player so a P win was guaranteed.
highsis
Profile Joined August 2011
259 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-13 23:54:48
November 13 2021 23:52 GMT
#7
On November 14 2021 08:27 IMSupervisor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2021 08:18 highsis wrote:
https://gall.dcinside.com/mgallery/board/view/?id=sc2&no=954659 (use google translate)

According to this, Korean protoss has never won a tier 1 tournament since 2017 and since K-protoss are mostly better than foreignors I think there's really no hope. And as far as I remember yes I don't even remember the last time protoss won a tier 1 tournament. As a protoss fan who doesn't play anymore and just watch pro scenes I'm so over watching SC2 in which I know my favourite race will never win anything above tier 2 and it's been years. I think protoss fans at this point are entitled to a bit of complaining for balance that will likely never be updated.

With Zest going to the army and trap aging, I think the answer to your question is no. For at least 4 years protoss has never and will never win anything tier 1. Personally I've given up and just decided to move onto AOE4 scene. I'm so tired of rooting for a team protoss that will never win in a tournament supposedly with 33% of winning. Just wondering how other protoss fans cope with this.


(Wiki)Global StarCraft II League

Worth noting that Trap won each of them, but second place was a Protoss player so a P win was guaranteed.


I thought ST was tier 2. Is it tier 1 tournament?
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25245 Posts
November 13 2021 23:55 GMT
#8
Not until I get back to actively playing again anyway
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-14 00:15:14
November 14 2021 00:14 GMT
#9
With the GM ladder so full of protoss...why are we surprised by this disparity? If Serral logs on and plays 10 games, 7 zvp 1 zvz 2 zvt I'd expect him to be much better vp than the other two races just based on practice. Could the relative low-level ease of protoss be punishing the upper tier Ps?
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
November 14 2021 00:44 GMT
#10
I mean there isn't really a question that protoss is underperforming, the question is just whether they're underperforming because they're bad or because their race is bad. I again want to stress that it's totally possible that protoss players are just worse than other players, and if Maxpax keeps improving that will demonstrate this.

From our perspective as protoss supporters the difference between the two doesn't really matter, the end result is just that we don't get to enjoy watching the game as often as you guys do, so we end up watching it less and less. And that's fine too.
No will to live, no wish to die
parksonsc
Profile Joined May 2019
175 Posts
November 14 2021 02:20 GMT
#11
Why havent nobody mentioned Zoun? He's more than decent and managed to reach a premier final where he just lost to a Protoss.
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
November 14 2021 02:25 GMT
#12
There is always a weakest race at the top level of play, it's just like in Brood War where Terran was beyond a doubt the strongest race at the top level of play and Protoss was the weakest, I guess Starcraft 2 is kinda the same in that regard.
highsis
Profile Joined August 2011
259 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-14 02:38:07
November 14 2021 02:37 GMT
#13
On November 14 2021 09:44 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean there isn't really a question that protoss is underperforming, the question is just whether they're underperforming because they're bad or because their race is bad. I again want to stress that it's totally possible that protoss players are just worse than other players, and if Maxpax keeps improving that will demonstrate this.

From our perspective as protoss supporters the difference between the two doesn't really matter, the end result is just that we don't get to enjoy watching the game as often as you guys do, so we end up watching it less and less. And that's fine too.


It's almost ALWAYS the case of balance(at a particular level, not overall balance because P is undoubtedly the strongest race at amateur levels) because there isn't really anything stacked against playing protoss as opposed to other races when people choose a race to play. Statistically there are more protoss players at GM level which means they should have a larger top player pool. "It's not the balance. Your player just sucks" has been thrown around for 22 years since SC1 release and everytime there's a balance shifts those supposedly 'sheer skillz' race gets decimated when given a nerf at the top level time and time again. I'm amazed the argument didn't die yet when there are so many counter examples against it.

If protoss is great at GM level and low to mid pro but sucks at top it simply means it's strong at mid-high level and sucks at the very top level. Easy to learn, hard to master or easy to play, hard to optimize are valid arguments here.

As a protoss fan I'm watching fewer and fewer tournaments since I feel like there's no hope for P to win top tier tournaments these days, no, these years.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
November 14 2021 08:43 GMT
#14
On November 14 2021 11:25 Beelzebub1 wrote:
There is always a weakest race at the top level of play, it's just like in Brood War where Terran was beyond a doubt the strongest race at the top level of play and Protoss was the weakest, I guess Starcraft 2 is kinda the same in that regard.


Post-KeSPA Starleague - Zerg dominating for last 3-5 years, Flash the Tesagi Terran hope, mini just won ASL and fulfilling the
Legend of the Fall.

Toss is always the third wheel in BW. But not as bad as SC2 LoTV.
gg no re thx
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15955 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-14 10:36:43
November 14 2021 10:32 GMT
#15
I'm curious what the whiners here think about what the reason is why Protoss can win tier 2 tournaments but not tier 1 ones.
Zergs and Terrans don't try as hard for tier 2 tournaments?
they purposely lose them so Protoss doesn't get buffed?

A lot of them had the same player pool as tier 1 tournaments so it seems like a weird thing to complain about that Protoss doesn't win this specific kind of tournaments.

Especially when you look past the winner list on liquipedia and actually watch those tournaments and realize Protoss could've easily won a couple of those.
They have reached the finals often so I guess the Protoss imbalance only activates once a Protoss reaches the final of a tier 1 tournament?

To me it just seems like a coincidence that Protoss hasn't won one in so long, no statistic except the winrate of Protoss in tier 1 tournament finals supports the claim that Protoss is weak.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12873 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-14 12:04:39
November 14 2021 10:39 GMT
#16
On November 14 2021 09:44 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean there isn't really a question that protoss is underperforming, the question is just whether they're underperforming because they're bad or because their race is bad. I again want to stress that it's totally possible that protoss players are just worse than other players, and if Maxpax keeps improving that will demonstrate this.

From our perspective as protoss supporters the difference between the two doesn't really matter, the end result is just that we don't get to enjoy watching the game as often as you guys do, so we end up watching it less and less. And that's fine too.

How are Protoss underperforming though?
They won 6/15 premier tournaments in EPT Tour 21/22 season (40%, zerg won 6 as well so 40%, terran won 3 so 20%).
They won the most money in 2021; they are ahead in balance reports on aligulac afaik; the GM being full of Protoss.
This narrative of Protoss underperforming is hilariously false. Granted, maybe on new maps + players figuring them out might have nerfed Protoss compared to the early part of the year, but even that is not clear.
Edit: since it’s a T/Z winner protoss will be 6/16, zerg 6 or 7/16 and Terran 3 or 4/16 after this DH Season Finals. That’s still far from underperforming, especially considering other points
Sources: (Wiki)ESL Pro Tour/2021/22 (list of premier tournaments winners for this season)
(Wiki)Winnings/2021 (winnings in 2021, protoss is still comfortably ahead, especially in Korea where the top 2 spots are taken by Zest and Trap far ahead of the #3)
No sources for GM but it's easily found / heard already
Aligulac balance report showing protoss is in a good spot since a long time: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
WriterMaru
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
November 14 2021 13:56 GMT
#17
^ thank you for that information Poopi
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
November 14 2021 14:06 GMT
#18
On November 14 2021 19:32 Charoisaur wrote:
I'm curious what the whiners here think about what the reason is why Protoss can win tier 2 tournaments but not tier 1 ones.
Zergs and Terrans don't try as hard for tier 2 tournaments?


? That seems like an obvious question.

In the scenario where protoss players are bad, it's just because there aren't any good tier 1 protoss players.

In the scenario where the race is bad, it's because what you need to do to be able to beat protoss is quite hard to pull off, and so only a few people in the game can master it.
No will to live, no wish to die
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
November 14 2021 14:08 GMT
#19
On November 14 2021 19:39 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2021 09:44 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean there isn't really a question that protoss is underperforming, the question is just whether they're underperforming because they're bad or because their race is bad. I again want to stress that it's totally possible that protoss players are just worse than other players, and if Maxpax keeps improving that will demonstrate this.

From our perspective as protoss supporters the difference between the two doesn't really matter, the end result is just that we don't get to enjoy watching the game as often as you guys do, so we end up watching it less and less. And that's fine too.

How are Protoss underperforming though?
They won 6/15 premier tournaments in EPT Tour 21/22 season (40%, zerg won 6 as well so 40%, terran won 3 so 20%).
They won the most money in 2021; they are ahead in balance reports on aligulac afaik; the GM being full of Protoss.
This narrative of Protoss underperforming is hilariously false. Granted, maybe on new maps + players figuring them out might have nerfed Protoss compared to the early part of the year, but even that is not clear.
Edit: since it’s a T/Z winner protoss will be 6/16, zerg 6 or 7/16 and Terran 3 or 4/16 after this DH Season Finals. That’s still far from underperforming, especially considering other points
Sources: (Wiki)ESL Pro Tour/2021/22 (list of premier tournaments winners for this season)
(Wiki)Winnings/2021 (winnings in 2021, protoss is still comfortably ahead, especially in Korea where the top 2 spots are taken by Zest and Trap far ahead of the #3)
No sources for GM but it's easily found / heard already
Aligulac balance report showing protoss is in a good spot since a long time: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/


Let's bet on Katowice friend, if a terran or a zerg wins you give me 50$, if a protoss wins I give you 500$, you're up?
No will to live, no wish to die
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15955 Posts
November 14 2021 14:12 GMT
#20
On November 14 2021 23:06 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2021 19:32 Charoisaur wrote:
I'm curious what the whiners here think about what the reason is why Protoss can win tier 2 tournaments but not tier 1 ones.
Zergs and Terrans don't try as hard for tier 2 tournaments?


? That seems like an obvious question.

In the scenario where protoss players are bad, it's just because there aren't any good tier 1 protoss players.

In the scenario where the race is bad, it's because what you need to do to be able to beat protoss is quite hard to pull off, and so only a few people in the game can master it.

not sure how that relates to my question...?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
1 2 3 4 5 44 45 46 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
MaNa vs ElazerLIVE!
Spirit vs Gerald
Clem vs TBD
uThermal vs TBD
Reynor vs TBD
Lambo vs TBD
RotterdaM951
ComeBackTV 937
IndyStarCraft 419
CranKy Ducklings147
Rex117
3DClanTV 106
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 951
IndyStarCraft 419
Rex 117
ProTech58
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 12442
Hyuk 3936
Hyun 965
Barracks 763
firebathero 678
Mini 640
Larva 640
BeSt 425
EffOrt 237
Last 86
[ Show more ]
sorry 82
ZerO 73
Noble 50
Shinee 49
zelot 45
Free 41
Soulkey 35
scan(afreeca) 34
soO 24
NaDa 22
yabsab 13
Sacsri 12
Movie 11
Sharp 11
ajuk12(nOOB) 8
Bale 7
Dota 2
XcaliburYe679
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K948
shoxiejesuss601
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor262
Other Games
gofns13440
Beastyqt509
Happy467
SortOf98
ZerO(Twitch)14
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH329
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2226
Upcoming Events
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3h 32m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
7h 32m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 23h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.