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The future of Protoss. Is there any hope? - Page 44

Forum Index > SC2 General
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CaRn1FeX
Profile Joined January 2003
Germany203 Posts
February 26 2022 23:11 GMT
#861
On February 27 2022 07:34 Xain0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2022 07:11 Phattyasmo wrote:
Lol; it's one tournament. Yeah, Zest and Trap lost; boohoo. Understand that Zest is going into military, as is Parting and maybe another one or two are leaving as well or something, Idk. Maybe wait and see some other major tourney results before complaining. Keep in mind, there has been a toss in the finals for the last 3 times in a row...


It's four months of absymal results.


Indeed, Toss feels quite dead right now. It's a mix of players leaving for military and balance imo... The top Toss players are leaving one after another and since balance does not really favor toss by any means, there is nobody following those either
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
February 27 2022 00:58 GMT
#862
On February 27 2022 05:37 CaRn1FeX wrote:
Is there any hint that a balance patch is indeed considered? My understanding was that Blizzard does not patch SC2 any more

Nerf shield batteries, nerf Void Rays, merge lurker upgrades, nerf ravens and give infestors a spell which buffs range damage.

It's just my guess.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
February 27 2022 01:01 GMT
#863
I think it's clear that if any balance changes are necessary, there should be a focus on nerfing Zerg after they have been winning all the world championships for so long.
highsis
Profile Joined August 2011
259 Posts
February 27 2022 04:29 GMT
#864
Let's just nerf protoss all across board and be done with it. This result of IEM has been obvious prediction for years now since the last balance patch. Better marking protoss as the official weak race rather than hearing incessant, never ending zerg & terran apologists making excuses why protoss isn't weak but performing badly.
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
February 27 2022 05:28 GMT
#865
[image loading]

If you just are looking at the results of IEM and World Championships the thing that stands out the most is that Zerg have won all IEMs since TY in 2017 and all World Championships since Byun. I think before we go and buff Protoss it wouldn't hurt to nerf Zerg. I mean, if you just want to look at the very top level for balance then here it is.
pandorasheep
Profile Joined February 2022
73 Posts
February 27 2022 07:04 GMT
#866
On February 27 2022 14:28 honorablemacroterran wrote:
[image loading]

If you just are looking at the results of IEM and World Championships the thing that stands out the most is that Zerg have won all IEMs since TY in 2017 and all World Championships since Byun. I think before we go and buff Protoss it wouldn't hurt to nerf Zerg. I mean, if you just want to look at the very top level for balance then here it is.


There's a reason why Serral is getting wins and easy groups
Melliflue
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom1389 Posts
February 27 2022 08:02 GMT
#867
On February 27 2022 14:28 honorablemacroterran wrote:
[image loading]

If you just are looking at the results of IEM and World Championships the thing that stands out the most is that Zerg have won all IEMs since TY in 2017 and all World Championships since Byun. I think before we go and buff Protoss it wouldn't hurt to nerf Zerg. I mean, if you just want to look at the very top level for balance then here it is.

Terrans eliminated protosses in the qualifiers, where TvP was 7-3 in series score. In the main event, not one protoss ended with a positive map score against terran.
Neeb 2-5
Showtime 4-4
Trap 3-3
Zest 2-2
Astrea 1-4
Zoun 5-6

It is not just one tournament either. Cure is the reigning Code S champion because of his TvP. He beat Parting, Trap, and Zest in the playoffs. I agree that zerg is strongest now but terran is definitely second ahead of protoss.
darklycid
Profile Joined May 2014
3512 Posts
February 27 2022 10:54 GMT
#868
On February 27 2022 17:02 Melliflue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2022 14:28 honorablemacroterran wrote:
[image loading]

If you just are looking at the results of IEM and World Championships the thing that stands out the most is that Zerg have won all IEMs since TY in 2017 and all World Championships since Byun. I think before we go and buff Protoss it wouldn't hurt to nerf Zerg. I mean, if you just want to look at the very top level for balance then here it is.

Terrans eliminated protosses in the qualifiers, where TvP was 7-3 in series score. In the main event, not one protoss ended with a positive map score against terran.
Neeb 2-5
Showtime 4-4
Trap 3-3
Zest 2-2
Astrea 1-4
Zoun 5-6

It is not just one tournament either. Cure is the reigning Code S champion because of his TvP. He beat Parting, Trap, and Zest in the playoffs. I agree that zerg is strongest now but terran is definitely second ahead of protoss.

PvT is quite swingy, it doesn't need balance changes like PvZ does but could use some nudges here and there to reduce volatility I feel. Meanwhile PvZ is just garbage and drains the fun out of watching.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
February 27 2022 11:38 GMT
#869
It's kind of interesting, looking back, at the perception during WoL that Zerg just didn't have good units. In the two expansions afterwards, they've gotten so many goodies: ravager, viper, lurker. And you're seeing these units being used to great effect. Zerg has so many options for what they want to do. Terran was a little hit or miss (Hellbat and cyclone) but Liberator and widow mine were definitely good additions. Watching TvZ feels like you're watching the same game as in WoL but evolved, with more wrinkles.

Protoss was appraised and Blizz thought, "eh, they're fine, let's just patch a few small holes." So Protoss got Reaper and a Banshee/Observer hybrid. And no matter how well you think they perform those roles, they don't change how Protoss plays or much strategically beyond the openings. The Disruptor was a welcome addition, but it was just a replacement after the colossus got completely gutted. Oh, yeah. I guess the Tempest is a thing.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
February 27 2022 13:06 GMT
#870
Do you think there is a chance of pressure we can send to get these game a patch or do we have to wait until if Blizzard-Microsoft makes a StarCraft III ?
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25613 Posts
February 27 2022 13:44 GMT
#871
On February 27 2022 19:54 darklycid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2022 17:02 Melliflue wrote:
On February 27 2022 14:28 honorablemacroterran wrote:
[image loading]

If you just are looking at the results of IEM and World Championships the thing that stands out the most is that Zerg have won all IEMs since TY in 2017 and all World Championships since Byun. I think before we go and buff Protoss it wouldn't hurt to nerf Zerg. I mean, if you just want to look at the very top level for balance then here it is.

Terrans eliminated protosses in the qualifiers, where TvP was 7-3 in series score. In the main event, not one protoss ended with a positive map score against terran.
Neeb 2-5
Showtime 4-4
Trap 3-3
Zest 2-2
Astrea 1-4
Zoun 5-6

It is not just one tournament either. Cure is the reigning Code S champion because of his TvP. He beat Parting, Trap, and Zest in the playoffs. I agree that zerg is strongest now but terran is definitely second ahead of protoss.

PvT is quite swingy, it doesn't need balance changes like PvZ does but could use some nudges here and there to reduce volatility I feel. Meanwhile PvZ is just garbage and drains the fun out of watching.

Agreed.

PvT is volatile, but in both directions and it can swing both ways very easily, especially within the space of one tournament.

You can take the best PvT/TvP player and while you might favour them going in, it’s never a huge surprise if they lose to a player considerably worse than them.

I like it to watch at times and there’s a lot of compositional and opening variety. It feels/numbers seem to indicate balance is alright, it doesn’t feel super stable either. A matchup should absolutely have upset potential, not feel that any top 10 player has a close to even shot at smacking the other race’s best matchup specialists depending on how build choices and how the early game snowballs.

Upsets can still happen but they’re so much less likely, or the base level of the player has to be that much higher if you look at the best TvZ/ZvT/ZvP

PvZ is neither in a good state enjoyment wise, nor particularly balance wise.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
February 27 2022 14:03 GMT
#872
HeroMarine rolled over Zoun yesterday, but there was one game where HM just decided to not dodge disruptor shots and lost a ton of units to 3-4 shots.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
February 27 2022 14:46 GMT
#873
On February 27 2022 22:06 Pandemona wrote:
Do you think there is a chance of pressure we can send to get these game a patch or do we have to wait until if Blizzard-Microsoft makes a StarCraft III ?


There was rumors of a patch after IEM.

I hope for the sake of Protoss going forward it's true because as match up diversity suffers, so will viewership, and I really don't want the game to decline more rapidly because the game couldn't get a few reasonable balance changes.

I've said it a hundred times, theres no rationale behind HoTS having such a puny competitive scene whilst having such a puny ranked ladder population and still getting not just hero balance changes, but entire hero reworks, while SC2 just get's left behind despite having a more popular and profitable pro scene.
nojok
Profile Joined May 2011
France15845 Posts
February 27 2022 14:56 GMT
#874
On February 27 2022 23:46 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2022 22:06 Pandemona wrote:
Do you think there is a chance of pressure we can send to get these game a patch or do we have to wait until if Blizzard-Microsoft makes a StarCraft III ?


There was rumors of a patch after IEM.

I hope for the sake of Protoss going forward it's true because as match up diversity suffers, so will viewership, and I really don't want the game to decline more rapidly because the game couldn't get a few reasonable balance changes.

I've said it a hundred times, theres no rationale behind HoTS having such a puny competitive scene whilst having such a puny ranked ladder population and still getting not just hero balance changes, but entire hero reworks, while SC2 just get's left behind despite having a more popular and profitable pro scene.

You can just make random changes to mobas, balance is not that important with bans, on the other hand it's hard to make a change improving an RTS in an already pretty good state.
"Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - Kuroky - Flap Flap Wings!
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
February 27 2022 14:57 GMT
#875
Yeah, Have you noticed that Dota 2 seems to have just adopted as a general policy that they are going to really change things up every 6 months?
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
February 27 2022 15:10 GMT
#876
On February 27 2022 23:46 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2022 22:06 Pandemona wrote:
Do you think there is a chance of pressure we can send to get these game a patch or do we have to wait until if Blizzard-Microsoft makes a StarCraft III ?


There was rumors of a patch after IEM.

I hope for the sake of Protoss going forward it's true because as match up diversity suffers, so will viewership, and I really don't want the game to decline more rapidly because the game couldn't get a few reasonable balance changes.

I've said it a hundred times, theres no rationale behind HoTS having such a puny competitive scene whilst having such a puny ranked ladder population and still getting not just hero balance changes, but entire hero reworks, while SC2 just get's left behind despite having a more popular and profitable pro scene.

Would be nice just helps keep the game going right, everyone always come back for a new patch and the pros we have now would love to try new things and use different units / build orders.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-27 15:29:45
February 27 2022 15:29 GMT
#877
On February 27 2022 23:56 nojok wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2022 23:46 Beelzebub1 wrote:
On February 27 2022 22:06 Pandemona wrote:
Do you think there is a chance of pressure we can send to get these game a patch or do we have to wait until if Blizzard-Microsoft makes a StarCraft III ?


There was rumors of a patch after IEM.

I hope for the sake of Protoss going forward it's true because as match up diversity suffers, so will viewership, and I really don't want the game to decline more rapidly because the game couldn't get a few reasonable balance changes.

I've said it a hundred times, theres no rationale behind HoTS having such a puny competitive scene whilst having such a puny ranked ladder population and still getting not just hero balance changes, but entire hero reworks, while SC2 just get's left behind despite having a more popular and profitable pro scene.

You can just make random changes to mobas, balance is not that important with bans, on the other hand it's hard to make a change improving an RTS in an already pretty good state.

I dare to say that many people would disagree that SC 2 is in a good state. I mean - LOOK AT THIS THREAD.

Edit> Also check how many balance suggestions are just on this page. And most of them are about Zerg and Protoss, funni.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12891 Posts
February 27 2022 15:52 GMT
#878
More important than "just" balance, the game design / game being fun, across all levels of plays, with still means to display skills and separate the good from the great at the top level.
PvZ is probably not too horrible balance wise, but zergs hate it, protoss hate it, viewers hate it. It has to change.
TvZ is still relatively loved but you feel that once lurkers are out it's just an uphill battle, and that queens basically counter everything which is also relatively bad design wise.
If the rumors are true, this could be very good.
Starcraft still has a bright future, be it BW or Starcraft 2
WriterMaru
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
February 27 2022 18:43 GMT
#879
On February 27 2022 17:02 Melliflue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2022 14:28 honorablemacroterran wrote:
[image loading]

If you just are looking at the results of IEM and World Championships the thing that stands out the most is that Zerg have won all IEMs since TY in 2017 and all World Championships since Byun. I think before we go and buff Protoss it wouldn't hurt to nerf Zerg. I mean, if you just want to look at the very top level for balance then here it is.

Terrans eliminated protosses in the qualifiers, where TvP was 7-3 in series score. In the main event, not one protoss ended with a positive map score against terran.
Neeb 2-5
Showtime 4-4
Trap 3-3
Zest 2-2
Astrea 1-4
Zoun 5-6

It is not just one tournament either. Cure is the reigning Code S champion because of his TvP. He beat Parting, Trap, and Zest in the playoffs. I agree that zerg is strongest now but terran is definitely second ahead of protoss.


If you want to make this case you have to look at who eliminated Protoss from every points event and why the seeding was the way it was to begin with.
CaRn1FeX
Profile Joined January 2003
Germany203 Posts
February 27 2022 18:45 GMT
#880
On February 28 2022 00:52 Poopi wrote:
TvZ is still relatively loved but you feel that once lurkers are out it's just an uphill battle, and that queens basically counter everything which is also relatively bad design wise.


Feels like you could easily replace with P and the statement is still valid to some degree. Lurkers make it very hard to play for both, Toss and Terran. Toss needs to switch to Skytoss to have a chance. Queens feel too strong and multi-purpose as well in PvZ
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