EPTTo answer the OP then; the future of Protoss is only as good as the future of Zerg and Terran and therefore of SC2.
The future of Protoss. Is there any hope? - Page 5
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AxiomB
69 Posts
To answer the OP then; the future of Protoss is only as good as the future of Zerg and Terran and therefore of SC2. | ||
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tigera6
3433 Posts
On November 16 2021 14:23 Drahkn wrote: Do you realize the stupidity of what you just said? Protoss is the most difficult unforgiving fickle race of all 3 races in the "tippity top" one tiny mistake as Protoss and enemy snowballs ahead so quickly closing down games safely is extremely easy. Both Zerg and Terran can be a lot more careless with their units and they get more chances for comebacks. Perfect example is TVP where Terran just keeps throwing widowmine drops at the Protoss,Protoss deflects 4 drops perfectly, 5th one he spots a millisecond to late and the game is basically over and anyone who knows Protoss knows if Terran goes for any sort of all inn you need to know exactly which one because its requires very specific responses. Meanwhile in Terran and Zerg world a standard macro build with good scouting you can make the same units every game without a single thought just don't be 2 greedy and you are fine. As for losing workers in any part of the game both Terran and Zerg can take worker loss way better. Specifically in mid-late game Zerg can a lot of the time instantly replace a worker line in 1 production cycle, Terran can spam a few more mules at cost of less scans to get over the hump without it affecting the economy to badly. Meanwhile protoss must wait for individual production cycle of the probes, then the probes must mine for a while before you are back to normal, but end result is still the same, on the graph you will see protoss gets hurt way more from worker loss. In these scenario Terran and Zerg has a nearly instant fix for the problem just from better race design, its just flat stronger. What Protoss gets in exchange for this I would love to know, I am waiting. The funniest thing I read people cry about protoss is their recall. How many times does medivac pickup save a terrans ass pr game on avarage you think? Zerg out of position? do you know how fast Zerg units run from your third into your main on creep if you were not paying attention? I could go on forever I am just getting to the point where the delusion in sc2 community makes me not want to watch competitive starcraft anymore, it's just painful watching Protoss players struggle for 10 years now with consistency just because of how poor the race design is. Protoss hardest race at the top level. IF it brings you that much pain to watch the "unbalance", then just quit following the scence, SC2 still doing well without guys like you who believe your own version is "the truth" and everyone else are dis-illusioned. You do sound like a troll and a sour-grape at the same time. I guess Maru beating Zest/Stats/Classic during his 4-peat GSL final run is just a product of poor design then. And Serral/Rogue/Dark smashing Protoss in IEM/WCS finals are also not from them being better but because the Zerg race propping them up or something. Protoss has made MULTIPLE final appearance in GSL/WCS/IEM global final, but they just lost to better opponent or having self-implosion in Bo7. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12314 Posts
On November 16 2021 18:39 tigera6 wrote: IF it brings you that much pain to watch the "unbalance", then just quit following the scence, SC2 still doing well without guys like you who believe your own version is "the truth" and everyone else are dis-illusioned. You do sound like a troll and a sour-grape at the same time. I guess Maru beating Zest/Stats/Classic during his 4-peat GSL final run is just a product of poor design then. And Serral/Rogue/Dark smashing Protoss in IEM/WCS finals are also not from them being better but because the Zerg race propping them up or something. Protoss has made MULTIPLE final appearance in GSL/WCS/IEM global final, but they just lost to better opponent or having self-implosion in Bo7. Very much agree, this is an excellent time to quit following the scene as a protoss supporter. But if you think it's easy to do something consistently for 10 years and stop... | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1312 Posts
Trap is a choker. | ||
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Elantris
66 Posts
On November 16 2021 20:38 MJG wrote: As much as I like to meme about Protoss never winning top-tier tournaments, and as much as I'd love to balance whine, I think the main problem is this: Trap is a choker. For real Trap has become worse player in a last couple of months. Watching his last series against Clem was so weird because Trap looked so slow in a situations where he did perfectly before. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1312 Posts
On November 16 2021 20:43 Elantris wrote: For real Trap has become worse player in a last couple of months. Watching his last series against Clem was so weird because Trap looked so slow in a situations where he did perfectly before. It only seems to be in big tournaments. His play in the group stage was also very spotty. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
There were countless arguments presented by now that its not the case, but since we are talking about Protoss here, just one thing. Toss is the easiest race on lower/mid level and the hardest at the top level. Zerg is the opposite. That is because each race has a certain skill line and the ceiling of Protoss just does not reach that of the Zerg or Terran. It has always been like this, its the core design of the game we can do nothing about. Does not mean that the pro scene and the matches itself cannot be balanced or fun though. Balance patches, META changes and maps do balance out the game quite nicely, despite the asymmetrical game design. Lets just once and for all accept this fact and move on and enjoy the game while its still alive. And please stop with the trolling about Toss being the easiest race. No one cares about your mid tier ladder woes and random cheesy tosses destroying you with the book of bullshit. The PROs literally handicap themselves only by choosing to play Protoss, lets just be glad they do otherwise the scene would be boring... | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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Drahkn
194 Posts
On November 16 2021 18:39 tigera6 wrote: IF it brings you that much pain to watch the "unbalance", then just quit following the scence, SC2 still doing well without guys like you who believe your own version is "the truth" and everyone else are dis-illusioned. You do sound like a troll and a sour-grape at the same time. I guess Maru beating Zest/Stats/Classic during his 4-peat GSL final run is just a product of poor design then. And Serral/Rogue/Dark smashing Protoss in IEM/WCS finals are also not from them being better but because the Zerg race propping them up or something. Protoss has made MULTIPLE final appearance in GSL/WCS/IEM global final, but they just lost to better opponent or having self-implosion in Bo7. I think sc2 community would be better of without elitist people like you rather, never actually making any good arguments just pointing out silly winratios to make your points. You have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about because you have no counter arguments to what I am saying like 99% of people in the sc2 community, I welcome being wrong if someone could actually bring some dialog on the table with some legit arguments instead of these empty personal attacks everytime you come short. Oh I should just add, why is it then that the common theme among every single Protoss player in sc2 history has been the inability to deliver consistent results? Every Protoss over the past 10+ years are just all chokers when it comes to big tournaments? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16001 Posts
On November 17 2021 05:16 Drahkn wrote: Oh I should just add, why is it then that the common theme among every single Protoss player in sc2 history has been the inability to deliver consistent results? Every Protoss over the past 10+ years are just all chokers when it comes to big tournaments? Except Protoss was actually the best performing race during HotS. Don't make up shit to prove your point please | ||
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Sprog
New Zealand83 Posts
It would be nice to see sentries used more, always liked the unit. Most of the units are: slow to fire, slow to move, expensive. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Edit> forgot NaNiwa, HuK and plenty of others. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16001 Posts
On November 17 2021 05:16 Drahkn wrote: I welcome being wrong if someone could actually bring some dialog on the table with some legit arguments instead of these empty personal attacks everytime you come short. Also you're the one doing this. I haven't heard a single person explain how it is a balance problem that Protoss doesn't win tier 1 tournaments when they can win tier 2 tournaments with the same player pool and also reach the finals of tier 1 tournaments with no problem. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
As other posters have said here, Protoss is the most unforgiving race. 1 bad fight, one missed ff, one wall slightly out of line, 1 out of position battle, or some economic damage and the Protoss takes the most time out of any race to recover. This, alongside the increased speed of lotv makes every mistake even more unforgiving. Then there is the fact that lotv nerfed protoss into the ground, particularly warp gate, which although many here would argue it wasn't good for the game, Protoss was designed around it. They buffed the stalker at first to counter that, and then reverted (mostly) the changes, and nerfed the zealot as well. Finally, due to LotV speeding things up you don't see many strategies you used to see, like the Amazing Blink stalker micro strategies. Go take a look at any modern blink stalker game and any blink stalker game in WoL and HosT and you'll see blink is mostly used to blink away and escape or blink in and kill a bunker or some important unit. Long gone are the days of large drawn out battles with blink micro, and this is because the game was speed up so much the window where stalkers are usefull that way is too short now, so you're better off just teching instead of trying to be fancy. On November 15 2021 01:47 Teoita wrote: I would be interested to see what the Protoss win rate is as a function of series duration.I wouldn't be surprised if it went from being pretty good in Bo3s (we can always open the Great Book in a pinch), to average in Bo5s, to pretty crap in Bo7s. In general, I feel like if you take a given map Protoss is kind of always fine (regardless of player skill), but when you add the extra layer of players figuring out each other's style, Protoss becomes more exploitable than either Terran or Zerg. If that were true, that would easily explain why Protoss does so well in ladder (it's all an isolated Bo1), can actually get to the end of tournaments more or less, but then just consistently falls apart in finals. I agree with this completely as well, would be interesting to see the stats. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25946 Posts
On November 17 2021 05:56 Sprog wrote: I think people are right the design means they're limited. If you look at the micro potential for units it's pretty low for P. Stalkers and Phoenix are the only real contenders here (edit disrupter). After blink stalkers are massively microable, a lot of the other units are not, at least to the extent that MMM or Roach Hydra Ling are. It would be nice to see sentries used more, always liked the unit. Most of the units are: slow to fire, slow to move, expensive. Indeed, there’s only so much you can squeeze from the race. Terran has a core of incredibly microable units, Zerg has a macro/inject/spread creep and ovies cycle that scales up really well with skill. I think you could retool chronoboost to scale better in the hands of elite players, but much of the rest you’d need a pretty fundamental redesign. Legacy exacerbated this yet further, you almost skip out the phase of the game where gateway units benefit a lot from micro, the little skirmishes you’d see early game where small numbers of gateway units with high HP/low damage were still competitive vs low hp/high damage units. Ultimately I think it was a bad decision to give Terran units such high micro ceilings and DPS, to the degree they did. I think you can pursue a policy of a bunch of ranged glass cannons in other settings, Nelf in WC3 work pretty well, but there’s fewer units, more HP across the board and melee counter micro is way more effective. | ||
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neveranexit
14 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
I would really enjoy some Lurker nerfs (HP or Adaptive Talons) but what I think I would like even more is perhaps very very cautious and minor buffs to gateway units in general, Protoss doesn't really have alot of ways to apply any meaningful pressure to Zerg early on outside of Oracles, I think if Stalkers/Sentries and Adepts were a little more resilient or just plain scaled better, it could allow Protoss to slow down the Zerg economy and enter the mid game on a more even footing. Gateway units being more or less irrelevant past the early game is kind of baffling, considering Zergling run byes and marine drops are staple moves and are routinely devastating. Protoss seems like just a small tiny balance patch away from being on even footing with Zerg at the pro level, too bad Blizzard couldn't give a rat's ass about this game anymore, I think SC2 could have many many more years of life left in it if it had a balance and design team that were passionate about the game and adamant about making small tweaks to improve it. | ||
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MinixTheNerd
200 Posts
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Vision_
870 Posts
The design of Stalker is excellent, probably the best unit design in WoL but with the addition of HotS and LotV, Stalker is a little bit weird. Toss has excellent units and except one or two long range units, i feel that this race lack of a constant damage dealer at distance while terran is strongly supported by medivacs and zerg reproduce enought faster to contain Protoss (only from a macro-strategy point of view). Stalkers isn t a consistent unit, in the past Yes, but only in WoL. To resume, the blink ability doesn t fit for a base unit and for now, Stalkers doesn t hold his role of a base unit. Why not imagine Stalkers in a slow-SC2-like ? Very difficult, but to be honest this isn t the kind of unit which help the overall balance. What do you think about that ? | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
On November 17 2021 08:13 WombaT wrote: Ultimately I think it was a bad decision to give Terran units such high micro ceilings and DPS, to the degree they did. This kind of feature is not so hard to balance provided that Blizzard promote a community patch. For now Stimpack do +50% dmg and +50% speed, it could nerf to +30% both (which is -15% decreasing his final damage), then Banelings has to be equal to 1 supply cost with correct balance tweaks. Then all units who are directly less or more implicated against marines decrease their fire-rate of 15% (for a first batch of tests). I would be glad to see Blizzard form a group of known members to work on a patch aside the ladder going on. Seriously, we only need promises of getting our work not salvaged, and playable inside battle.net with publicity and a transition test ladder. I don t think it s hard for Blizzard to allow because it s what their employees have done before. | ||
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