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Bisutopia19300 Posts
Protoss has had much improved balance since the patch at the end of 2019 (or whenever that infestor patch hit). Prior to that, it was really unfun to watch PvZ and TvZ. After that patch hit is when I think that it's completely on the current pool of Protoss players to win tournaments. Based on that, there's only been a two year drought in GSL Protoss victors, which isn't really a big deal when you look at Protoss winners in the ASL for SC1.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 17 2021 22:21 BisuDagger wrote:
Protoss has had much improved balance since the patch at the end of 2019 (or whenever that infestor patch hit). Prior to that, it was really unfun to watch PvZ and TvZ. After that patch hit is when I think that it's completely on the current pool of Protoss players to win tournaments. Based on that, there's only been a two year drought in GSL Protoss victors, which isn't really a big deal when you look at Protoss winners in the ASL for SC1.
No offense, but I want to see Protoss victories in SC2 and I don't care for SC1.
At the same time when Classic went to the army I accepted the fate that we have only Stats, Zest and Trap. Who were/are great players, but Stats was more about 2nd places, Trap as well and Zest was as unstable as me in a traffic jam.
Edit> Maybe some time in the future we will get Zoun titles. Or Classic will be back to his former self.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On November 18 2021 02:49 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2021 22:21 BisuDagger wrote:
Protoss has had much improved balance since the patch at the end of 2019 (or whenever that infestor patch hit). Prior to that, it was really unfun to watch PvZ and TvZ. After that patch hit is when I think that it's completely on the current pool of Protoss players to win tournaments. Based on that, there's only been a two year drought in GSL Protoss victors, which isn't really a big deal when you look at Protoss winners in the ASL for SC1. No offense, but I want to see Protoss victories in SC2 and I don't care for SC1. At the same time when Classic went to the army I accepted the fate that we have only Stats, Zest and Trap. Who were/are great players, but Stats was more about 2nd places, Trap as well and Zest was as unstable as me in a traffic jam. Edit> Maybe some time in the future we will get Zoun titles. Or Classic will be back to his former self.
The point is that even with a game like SC1 where balance is pretty much settled, a race will struggle to win tournaments if the top talent of that race isn't as good as the talent of the other races. Since I view the balance is pretty good for SC2, I'm applying the same thought process. I believe the talent for SC2 protoss is just a tad below the talent for the other races.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On November 18 2021 03:32 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2021 02:49 deacon.frost wrote:On November 17 2021 22:21 BisuDagger wrote:
Protoss has had much improved balance since the patch at the end of 2019 (or whenever that infestor patch hit). Prior to that, it was really unfun to watch PvZ and TvZ. After that patch hit is when I think that it's completely on the current pool of Protoss players to win tournaments. Based on that, there's only been a two year drought in GSL Protoss victors, which isn't really a big deal when you look at Protoss winners in the ASL for SC1. No offense, but I want to see Protoss victories in SC2 and I don't care for SC1. At the same time when Classic went to the army I accepted the fate that we have only Stats, Zest and Trap. Who were/are great players, but Stats was more about 2nd places, Trap as well and Zest was as unstable as me in a traffic jam. Edit> Maybe some time in the future we will get Zoun titles. Or Classic will be back to his former self. The point is that even with a game like SC1 where balance is pretty much settled, a race will struggle to win tournaments if the top talent of that race isn't as good as the talent of the other races. Since I view the balance is pretty good for SC2, I'm applying the same thought process. I believe the talent for SC2 protoss is just a tad below the talent for the other races.
A surprising thing to say given your nickname!
But no I agree, not that the talent isn’t there but there isn’t enough of it, currently.
Conversely, HoTs where Protoss did very well you had Rain for a period, peak Zest, peak sOs, Stats, herO Classic and Protoss did well in tournaments and Proleague.
You basically had all of SC2’s Protoss GOATs, all in consistently good shape, minus MC for WoL and Trap for his outstanding last few years in Legacy
My argument at the time when people were complaining about Protoss being too good, was that the race had an atypical amount of real S class players, who were better than most of the opposition, and there were fewer equivalent players from the other races.
Now that’s really shifted around, even from tournament to tournament.
A Korean tournament has 2 Zergs in their top tier, an international has 4. I would fancy a Protoss to win a Code S before a Katowice
If Classic and herO can get back to their peak forms this could change pretty quickly, Cure’s fantastic victory aside Terran is absolutely carried by Maru these days, and Gumiho hasn’t been returning to shape as quick as his Protoss counterparts. Can Cure keep up his momentum, can Trap keep up his stirling efforts of the past few years? Does Zoun keep progressing?
Based on that I think it’s quite up in the air as to whether it’ll be Z > P > T / T > P just based on the talent level
There are so few players in that genuine (albeit subjective) S class at this point that a few players dropping out via slumps or leaving the scene has a huge impact on a race’s ability to win top tournaments.
If Dark and Rogue retired tomorrow, and neither of Reynor or Serral wanted to play Code S, could anyone honestly see Zerg winning a Code S in the foreseeable future? There’s very, very good Zerg talent below them but of that level?
Cutting out racial stuff, there’s a really, really small number of players who literally win every tournament going. There clearly is both a top tier of players who win things, regardless of race, and it’s not a high number of players of that level.
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On November 17 2021 05:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2021 05:16 Drahkn wrote:On November 16 2021 18:39 tigera6 wrote:On November 16 2021 14:23 Drahkn wrote:On November 14 2021 07:12 Woosixion wrote:
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top Do you realize the stupidity of what you just said? Protoss is the most difficult unforgiving fickle race of all 3 races in the "tippity top" one tiny mistake as Protoss and enemy snowballs ahead so quickly closing down games safely is extremely easy. Both Zerg and Terran can be a lot more careless with their units and they get more chances for comebacks. Perfect example is TVP where Terran just keeps throwing widowmine drops at the Protoss,Protoss deflects 4 drops perfectly, 5th one he spots a millisecond to late and the game is basically over and anyone who knows Protoss knows if Terran goes for any sort of all inn you need to know exactly which one because its requires very specific responses. Meanwhile in Terran and Zerg world a standard macro build with good scouting you can make the same units every game without a single thought just don't be 2 greedy and you are fine. As for losing workers in any part of the game both Terran and Zerg can take worker loss way better. Specifically in mid-late game Zerg can a lot of the time instantly replace a worker line in 1 production cycle, Terran can spam a few more mules at cost of less scans to get over the hump without it affecting the economy to badly. Meanwhile protoss must wait for individual production cycle of the probes, then the probes must mine for a while before you are back to normal, but end result is still the same, on the graph you will see protoss gets hurt way more from worker loss. In these scenario Terran and Zerg has a nearly instant fix for the problem just from better race design, its just flat stronger. What Protoss gets in exchange for this I would love to know, I am waiting. The funniest thing I read people cry about protoss is their recall. How many times does medivac pickup save a terrans ass pr game on avarage you think? Zerg out of position? do you know how fast Zerg units run from your third into your main on creep if you were not paying attention? I could go on forever I am just getting to the point where the delusion in sc2 community makes me not want to watch competitive starcraft anymore, it's just painful watching Protoss players struggle for 10 years now with consistency just because of how poor the race design is. Protoss hardest race at the top level. IF it brings you that much pain to watch the "unbalance", then just quit following the scence, SC2 still doing well without guys like you who believe your own version is "the truth" and everyone else are dis-illusioned. You do sound like a troll and a sour-grape at the same time. I guess Maru beating Zest/Stats/Classic during his 4-peat GSL final run is just a product of poor design then. And Serral/Rogue/Dark smashing Protoss in IEM/WCS finals are also not from them being better but because the Zerg race propping them up or something. Protoss has made MULTIPLE final appearance in GSL/WCS/IEM global final, but they just lost to better opponent or having self-implosion in Bo7. Oh I should just add, why is it then that the common theme among every single Protoss player in sc2 history has been the inability to deliver consistent results? Every Protoss over the past 10+ years are just all chokers when it comes to big tournaments? Except Protoss was actually the best performing race during HotS. Don't make up shit to prove your point please
Sounds like you just made up shit to prove your point there mate
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On November 18 2021 05:25 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2021 05:53 Charoisaur wrote:On November 17 2021 05:16 Drahkn wrote:On November 16 2021 18:39 tigera6 wrote:On November 16 2021 14:23 Drahkn wrote:On November 14 2021 07:12 Woosixion wrote:
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top Do you realize the stupidity of what you just said? Protoss is the most difficult unforgiving fickle race of all 3 races in the "tippity top" one tiny mistake as Protoss and enemy snowballs ahead so quickly closing down games safely is extremely easy. Both Zerg and Terran can be a lot more careless with their units and they get more chances for comebacks. Perfect example is TVP where Terran just keeps throwing widowmine drops at the Protoss,Protoss deflects 4 drops perfectly, 5th one he spots a millisecond to late and the game is basically over and anyone who knows Protoss knows if Terran goes for any sort of all inn you need to know exactly which one because its requires very specific responses. Meanwhile in Terran and Zerg world a standard macro build with good scouting you can make the same units every game without a single thought just don't be 2 greedy and you are fine. As for losing workers in any part of the game both Terran and Zerg can take worker loss way better. Specifically in mid-late game Zerg can a lot of the time instantly replace a worker line in 1 production cycle, Terran can spam a few more mules at cost of less scans to get over the hump without it affecting the economy to badly. Meanwhile protoss must wait for individual production cycle of the probes, then the probes must mine for a while before you are back to normal, but end result is still the same, on the graph you will see protoss gets hurt way more from worker loss. In these scenario Terran and Zerg has a nearly instant fix for the problem just from better race design, its just flat stronger. What Protoss gets in exchange for this I would love to know, I am waiting. The funniest thing I read people cry about protoss is their recall. How many times does medivac pickup save a terrans ass pr game on avarage you think? Zerg out of position? do you know how fast Zerg units run from your third into your main on creep if you were not paying attention? I could go on forever I am just getting to the point where the delusion in sc2 community makes me not want to watch competitive starcraft anymore, it's just painful watching Protoss players struggle for 10 years now with consistency just because of how poor the race design is. Protoss hardest race at the top level. IF it brings you that much pain to watch the "unbalance", then just quit following the scence, SC2 still doing well without guys like you who believe your own version is "the truth" and everyone else are dis-illusioned. You do sound like a troll and a sour-grape at the same time. I guess Maru beating Zest/Stats/Classic during his 4-peat GSL final run is just a product of poor design then. And Serral/Rogue/Dark smashing Protoss in IEM/WCS finals are also not from them being better but because the Zerg race propping them up or something. Protoss has made MULTIPLE final appearance in GSL/WCS/IEM global final, but they just lost to better opponent or having self-implosion in Bo7. Oh I should just add, why is it then that the common theme among every single Protoss player in sc2 history has been the inability to deliver consistent results? Every Protoss over the past 10+ years are just all chokers when it comes to big tournaments? Except Protoss was actually the best performing race during HotS. Don't make up shit to prove your point please Sounds like you just made up shit to prove your point there mate
Proleague was a big factor in HoTS and Protoss did extremely well there, as well as doing pretty well in individual tournaments
I couldn't 100% say they were the best performing race from memory, but it wouldn't surprise me
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On November 18 2021 05:25 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2021 05:53 Charoisaur wrote:On November 17 2021 05:16 Drahkn wrote:On November 16 2021 18:39 tigera6 wrote:On November 16 2021 14:23 Drahkn wrote:On November 14 2021 07:12 Woosixion wrote:
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top Do you realize the stupidity of what you just said? Protoss is the most difficult unforgiving fickle race of all 3 races in the "tippity top" one tiny mistake as Protoss and enemy snowballs ahead so quickly closing down games safely is extremely easy. Both Zerg and Terran can be a lot more careless with their units and they get more chances for comebacks. Perfect example is TVP where Terran just keeps throwing widowmine drops at the Protoss,Protoss deflects 4 drops perfectly, 5th one he spots a millisecond to late and the game is basically over and anyone who knows Protoss knows if Terran goes for any sort of all inn you need to know exactly which one because its requires very specific responses. Meanwhile in Terran and Zerg world a standard macro build with good scouting you can make the same units every game without a single thought just don't be 2 greedy and you are fine. As for losing workers in any part of the game both Terran and Zerg can take worker loss way better. Specifically in mid-late game Zerg can a lot of the time instantly replace a worker line in 1 production cycle, Terran can spam a few more mules at cost of less scans to get over the hump without it affecting the economy to badly. Meanwhile protoss must wait for individual production cycle of the probes, then the probes must mine for a while before you are back to normal, but end result is still the same, on the graph you will see protoss gets hurt way more from worker loss. In these scenario Terran and Zerg has a nearly instant fix for the problem just from better race design, its just flat stronger. What Protoss gets in exchange for this I would love to know, I am waiting. The funniest thing I read people cry about protoss is their recall. How many times does medivac pickup save a terrans ass pr game on avarage you think? Zerg out of position? do you know how fast Zerg units run from your third into your main on creep if you were not paying attention? I could go on forever I am just getting to the point where the delusion in sc2 community makes me not want to watch competitive starcraft anymore, it's just painful watching Protoss players struggle for 10 years now with consistency just because of how poor the race design is. Protoss hardest race at the top level. IF it brings you that much pain to watch the "unbalance", then just quit following the scence, SC2 still doing well without guys like you who believe your own version is "the truth" and everyone else are dis-illusioned. You do sound like a troll and a sour-grape at the same time. I guess Maru beating Zest/Stats/Classic during his 4-peat GSL final run is just a product of poor design then. And Serral/Rogue/Dark smashing Protoss in IEM/WCS finals are also not from them being better but because the Zerg race propping them up or something. Protoss has made MULTIPLE final appearance in GSL/WCS/IEM global final, but they just lost to better opponent or having self-implosion in Bo7. Oh I should just add, why is it then that the common theme among every single Protoss player in sc2 history has been the inability to deliver consistent results? Every Protoss over the past 10+ years are just all chokers when it comes to big tournaments? Except Protoss was actually the best performing race during HotS. Don't make up shit to prove your point please Sounds like you just made up shit to prove your point there mate
You're just here to troll, aren't you?
Protoss won 4 out of 5 World Championships, 4 out of 8 GSLs (those are the only tournaments that are relevant I've been told) and were the best performing race in Proleague during HotS.
You made shit up.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 18 2021 03:32 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2021 02:49 deacon.frost wrote:On November 17 2021 22:21 BisuDagger wrote:
Protoss has had much improved balance since the patch at the end of 2019 (or whenever that infestor patch hit). Prior to that, it was really unfun to watch PvZ and TvZ. After that patch hit is when I think that it's completely on the current pool of Protoss players to win tournaments. Based on that, there's only been a two year drought in GSL Protoss victors, which isn't really a big deal when you look at Protoss winners in the ASL for SC1. No offense, but I want to see Protoss victories in SC2 and I don't care for SC1. At the same time when Classic went to the army I accepted the fate that we have only Stats, Zest and Trap. Who were/are great players, but Stats was more about 2nd places, Trap as well and Zest was as unstable as me in a traffic jam. Edit> Maybe some time in the future we will get Zoun titles. Or Classic will be back to his former self. The point is that even with a game like SC1 where balance is pretty much settled, a race will struggle to win tournaments if the top talent of that race isn't as good as the talent of the other races. Since I view the balance is pretty good for SC2, I'm applying the same thought process. I believe the talent for SC2 protoss is just a tad below the talent for the other races.
Well, I wanted to stay out of SC1 for the reason that I am under the impression that SC1 balance isn't actually any good considering all the top tier players were Terrans and, uh, one Zerg we don't talk about. As I don't know SC1(because I watch it only in clips where Artosis rages about Terran being unplayable race while Flash is laughing his ass off) I wanted to stay away from it cause maybe my information is wrong =)
But yeah, obviously if the talent is not there they cannot win, ironically the talent is there but as would soO fans say - the talent cannot win anything big. The said talent is Trap. Well, probably was, again, not following SC2 anymore. But gonna bitch and moan about it as sometimes I'm bored 
Long story short - then we agreed with each other xD
On November 18 2021 04:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2021 03:32 BisuDagger wrote:On November 18 2021 02:49 deacon.frost wrote:On November 17 2021 22:21 BisuDagger wrote:
Protoss has had much improved balance since the patch at the end of 2019 (or whenever that infestor patch hit). Prior to that, it was really unfun to watch PvZ and TvZ. After that patch hit is when I think that it's completely on the current pool of Protoss players to win tournaments. Based on that, there's only been a two year drought in GSL Protoss victors, which isn't really a big deal when you look at Protoss winners in the ASL for SC1. No offense, but I want to see Protoss victories in SC2 and I don't care for SC1. At the same time when Classic went to the army I accepted the fate that we have only Stats, Zest and Trap. Who were/are great players, but Stats was more about 2nd places, Trap as well and Zest was as unstable as me in a traffic jam. Edit> Maybe some time in the future we will get Zoun titles. Or Classic will be back to his former self. The point is that even with a game like SC1 where balance is pretty much settled, a race will struggle to win tournaments if the top talent of that race isn't as good as the talent of the other races. Since I view the balance is pretty good for SC2, I'm applying the same thought process. I believe the talent for SC2 protoss is just a tad below the talent for the other races. A surprising thing to say given your nickname! But no I agree, not that the talent isn’t there but there isn’t enough of it, currently. Conversely, HoTs where Protoss did very well you had Rain for a period, peak Zest, peak sOs, Stats, herO Classic and Protoss did well in tournaments and Proleague. You basically had all of SC2’s Protoss GOATs, all in consistently good shape, minus MC for WoL and Trap for his outstanding last few years in Legacy My argument at the time when people were complaining about Protoss being too good, was that the race had an atypical amount of real S class players, who were better than most of the opposition, and there were fewer equivalent players from the other races. Now that’s really shifted around, even from tournament to tournament. A Korean tournament has 2 Zergs in their top tier, an international has 4. I would fancy a Protoss to win a Code S before a Katowice If Classic and herO can get back to their peak forms this could change pretty quickly, Cure’s fantastic victory aside Terran is absolutely carried by Maru these days, and Gumiho hasn’t been returning to shape as quick as his Protoss counterparts. Can Cure keep up his momentum, can Trap keep up his stirling efforts of the past few years? Does Zoun keep progressing? Based on that I think it’s quite up in the air as to whether it’ll be Z > P > T / T > P just based on the talent level There are so few players in that genuine (albeit subjective) S class at this point that a few players dropping out via slumps or leaving the scene has a huge impact on a race’s ability to win top tournaments. If Dark and Rogue retired tomorrow, and neither of Reynor or Serral wanted to play Code S, could anyone honestly see Zerg winning a Code S in the foreseeable future? There’s very, very good Zerg talent below them but of that level? Cutting out racial stuff, there’s a really, really small number of players who literally win every tournament going. There clearly is both a top tier of players who win things, regardless of race, and it’s not a high number of players of that level.
I am offended that neither you nor I remembered Dear who was on fire until ... let's not talk about that.
For some reason many zergs just disappeared. Unfortunately.
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The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch.
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On November 17 2021 18:15 Vision_ wrote:
I think stalker isn t enought good.
The design of Stalker is excellent, probably the best unit design in WoL but with the addition of HotS and LotV, Stalker is a little bit weird. Toss has excellent units and except one or two long range units, i feel that this race lack of a constant damage dealer at distance while terran is strongly supported by medivacs and zerg reproduce enought faster to contain Protoss (only from a macro-strategy point of view).
Stalkers isn t a consistent unit, in the past Yes, but only in WoL.
To resume, the blink ability doesn t fit for a base unit and for now, Stalkers doesn t hold his role of a base unit. Why not imagine Stalkers in a slow-SC2-like ? Very difficult, but to be honest this isn t the kind of unit which help the overall balance.
What do you think about that ?
I think a Stalker buff would be good, but how do you buff it against Zerg without making it broken vs Terran? I see Parting do alot of early Stalker play vs Terran and with good micro it already looks potent.
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On November 15 2021 17:08 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2021 15:40 NinjaNight wrote:
No dude, saying all the players of a certain race are just worse is one of the dumbest arguments possible. Why is EU GM, about 50% Protoss then? If EU players across all races are equally skilled, you would expect 1/3 to be Terran, 1/3 to be Zerg, and 1/3 to be Protoss. Mind you, EU GM was quite balanced before the last patch. After the last patch, the number of Protoss players getting into EU GM increased, while Terran and Zerg players making it into EU GM decreased.
Not sure how you think that logic works, a race was strengthened by a patch and you still expect it to be perfect one thirds?
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On November 18 2021 13:26 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2021 18:15 Vision_ wrote:
I think stalker isn t enought good.
The design of Stalker is excellent, probably the best unit design in WoL but with the addition of HotS and LotV, Stalker is a little bit weird. Toss has excellent units and except one or two long range units, i feel that this race lack of a constant damage dealer at distance while terran is strongly supported by medivacs and zerg reproduce enought faster to contain Protoss (only from a macro-strategy point of view).
Stalkers isn t a consistent unit, in the past Yes, but only in WoL.
To resume, the blink ability doesn t fit for a base unit and for now, Stalkers doesn t hold his role of a base unit. Why not imagine Stalkers in a slow-SC2-like ? Very difficult, but to be honest this isn t the kind of unit which help the overall balance.
What do you think about that ? I think a Stalker buff would be good, but how do you buff it against Zerg without making it broken vs Terran? I see Parting do alot of early Stalker play vs Terran and with good micro it already looks potent.
I'd use a stalker buff through the use of sentries. The sentry unit should be able to transform into a Energizer variant like it is used in the campaign. It can be like the hellbat where it becomes available if there is a robo or robo support bay. This would help add some much needed healing to stalkers. I think there are some other really cool ideas in the coop missions and main campaign that would be really fun to have in 1v1 too.
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What really matters is RO4 or RO8 representation.
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On November 19 2021 00:05 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2021 13:26 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 17 2021 18:15 Vision_ wrote:
I think stalker isn t enought good.
The design of Stalker is excellent, probably the best unit design in WoL but with the addition of HotS and LotV, Stalker is a little bit weird. Toss has excellent units and except one or two long range units, i feel that this race lack of a constant damage dealer at distance while terran is strongly supported by medivacs and zerg reproduce enought faster to contain Protoss (only from a macro-strategy point of view).
Stalkers isn t a consistent unit, in the past Yes, but only in WoL.
To resume, the blink ability doesn t fit for a base unit and for now, Stalkers doesn t hold his role of a base unit. Why not imagine Stalkers in a slow-SC2-like ? Very difficult, but to be honest this isn t the kind of unit which help the overall balance.
What do you think about that ? I think a Stalker buff would be good, but how do you buff it against Zerg without making it broken vs Terran? I see Parting do alot of early Stalker play vs Terran and with good micro it already looks potent. I'd use a stalker buff through the use of sentries. The sentry unit should be able to transform into a Energizer variant like it is used in the campaign. It can be like the hellbat where it becomes available if there is a robo or robo support bay. This would help add some much needed healing to stalkers. I think there are some other really cool ideas in the coop missions and main campaign that would be really fun to have in 1v1 too.
Yea I kind of wish they would remove FF at this point (since it's kind of useless vs Zerg anyways) and replace it with something that gave early GW units a bit more punch and mobility early on, obviously this would let Protoss apply a bit of aggression/scouting whilst limiting the Zerg's economy.
Something for sure, but aye we all know Blizzard looks at SC2 and says, "No monthly subscription? Throw it in the trash!"
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 19 2021 00:36 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 00:05 BisuDagger wrote:On November 18 2021 13:26 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 17 2021 18:15 Vision_ wrote:
I think stalker isn t enought good.
The design of Stalker is excellent, probably the best unit design in WoL but with the addition of HotS and LotV, Stalker is a little bit weird. Toss has excellent units and except one or two long range units, i feel that this race lack of a constant damage dealer at distance while terran is strongly supported by medivacs and zerg reproduce enought faster to contain Protoss (only from a macro-strategy point of view).
Stalkers isn t a consistent unit, in the past Yes, but only in WoL.
To resume, the blink ability doesn t fit for a base unit and for now, Stalkers doesn t hold his role of a base unit. Why not imagine Stalkers in a slow-SC2-like ? Very difficult, but to be honest this isn t the kind of unit which help the overall balance.
What do you think about that ? I think a Stalker buff would be good, but how do you buff it against Zerg without making it broken vs Terran? I see Parting do alot of early Stalker play vs Terran and with good micro it already looks potent. I'd use a stalker buff through the use of sentries. The sentry unit should be able to transform into a Energizer variant like it is used in the campaign. It can be like the hellbat where it becomes available if there is a robo or robo support bay. This would help add some much needed healing to stalkers. I think there are some other really cool ideas in the coop missions and main campaign that would be really fun to have in 1v1 too. Yea I kind of wish they would remove FF at this point (since it's kind of useless vs Zerg anyways) and replace it with something that gave early GW units a bit more punch and mobility early on, obviously this would let Protoss apply a bit of aggression/scouting whilst limiting the Zerg's economy. Something for sure, but aye we all know Blizzard looks at SC2 and says, "No monthly subscription? Throw it in the trash!"
First of all, bane busts still exist.
Second of all - how the fuck would sentry, which is a slow unit, gave a mobility boost? oO
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On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch.
in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance.
But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats)
Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!??
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On November 19 2021 04:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 00:36 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 19 2021 00:05 BisuDagger wrote:On November 18 2021 13:26 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 17 2021 18:15 Vision_ wrote:
I think stalker isn t enought good.
The design of Stalker is excellent, probably the best unit design in WoL but with the addition of HotS and LotV, Stalker is a little bit weird. Toss has excellent units and except one or two long range units, i feel that this race lack of a constant damage dealer at distance while terran is strongly supported by medivacs and zerg reproduce enought faster to contain Protoss (only from a macro-strategy point of view).
Stalkers isn t a consistent unit, in the past Yes, but only in WoL.
To resume, the blink ability doesn t fit for a base unit and for now, Stalkers doesn t hold his role of a base unit. Why not imagine Stalkers in a slow-SC2-like ? Very difficult, but to be honest this isn t the kind of unit which help the overall balance.
What do you think about that ? I think a Stalker buff would be good, but how do you buff it against Zerg without making it broken vs Terran? I see Parting do alot of early Stalker play vs Terran and with good micro it already looks potent. I'd use a stalker buff through the use of sentries. The sentry unit should be able to transform into a Energizer variant like it is used in the campaign. It can be like the hellbat where it becomes available if there is a robo or robo support bay. This would help add some much needed healing to stalkers. I think there are some other really cool ideas in the coop missions and main campaign that would be really fun to have in 1v1 too. Yea I kind of wish they would remove FF at this point (since it's kind of useless vs Zerg anyways) and replace it with something that gave early GW units a bit more punch and mobility early on, obviously this would let Protoss apply a bit of aggression/scouting whilst limiting the Zerg's economy. Something for sure, but aye we all know Blizzard looks at SC2 and says, "No monthly subscription? Throw it in the trash!" First of all, bane busts still exist. Second of all - how the fuck would sentry, which is a slow unit, gave a mobility boost? oO
It worked that way in the campaign.
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Energizer
Chrono Beam
Boosts targeted allied unit attack and movement speed by 50%. Can be set to autocast; when set to autocast, the energizer will only target units in combat.
and
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Havoc
SquadSight SC2-LotV Icon1.jpg
Squad Sight
Nearby allied units gain +2 range to their attacks.
Usage
v • e
TargetLock SC2-LotV Icon1.jpg
Target Lock
Increases damage dealt to target enemy unit by 30%. Effect lasts as long as the Havoc remains locked onto the target. Can be set to autocast.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 19 2021 04:11 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 04:04 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 00:36 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 19 2021 00:05 BisuDagger wrote:On November 18 2021 13:26 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 17 2021 18:15 Vision_ wrote:
I think stalker isn t enought good.
The design of Stalker is excellent, probably the best unit design in WoL but with the addition of HotS and LotV, Stalker is a little bit weird. Toss has excellent units and except one or two long range units, i feel that this race lack of a constant damage dealer at distance while terran is strongly supported by medivacs and zerg reproduce enought faster to contain Protoss (only from a macro-strategy point of view).
Stalkers isn t a consistent unit, in the past Yes, but only in WoL.
To resume, the blink ability doesn t fit for a base unit and for now, Stalkers doesn t hold his role of a base unit. Why not imagine Stalkers in a slow-SC2-like ? Very difficult, but to be honest this isn t the kind of unit which help the overall balance.
What do you think about that ? I think a Stalker buff would be good, but how do you buff it against Zerg without making it broken vs Terran? I see Parting do alot of early Stalker play vs Terran and with good micro it already looks potent. I'd use a stalker buff through the use of sentries. The sentry unit should be able to transform into a Energizer variant like it is used in the campaign. It can be like the hellbat where it becomes available if there is a robo or robo support bay. This would help add some much needed healing to stalkers. I think there are some other really cool ideas in the coop missions and main campaign that would be really fun to have in 1v1 too. Yea I kind of wish they would remove FF at this point (since it's kind of useless vs Zerg anyways) and replace it with something that gave early GW units a bit more punch and mobility early on, obviously this would let Protoss apply a bit of aggression/scouting whilst limiting the Zerg's economy. Something for sure, but aye we all know Blizzard looks at SC2 and says, "No monthly subscription? Throw it in the trash!" First of all, bane busts still exist. Second of all - how the fuck would sentry, which is a slow unit, gave a mobility boost? oO It worked that way in the campaign. https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/EnergizerShow nested quote +Chrono Beam
Boosts targeted allied unit attack and movement speed by 50%. Can be set to autocast; when set to autocast, the energizer will only target units in combat. and https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/HavocShow nested quote +SquadSight SC2-LotV Icon1.jpg
Squad Sight
Nearby allied units gain +2 range to their attacks.
Usage
v • e
TargetLock SC2-LotV Icon1.jpg
Target Lock
Increases damage dealt to target enemy unit by 30%. Effect lasts as long as the Havoc remains locked onto the target. Can be set to autocast.
Was the campaign imbasentry moving faster than regular sentry? Which was my issue with that. Also I don't like this honestly, if anything Protoss needs less casters and more microable units. And mah banebusts 
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On November 19 2021 04:24 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 04:11 BisuDagger wrote:On November 19 2021 04:04 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 00:36 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 19 2021 00:05 BisuDagger wrote:On November 18 2021 13:26 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 17 2021 18:15 Vision_ wrote:
I think stalker isn t enought good.
The design of Stalker is excellent, probably the best unit design in WoL but with the addition of HotS and LotV, Stalker is a little bit weird. Toss has excellent units and except one or two long range units, i feel that this race lack of a constant damage dealer at distance while terran is strongly supported by medivacs and zerg reproduce enought faster to contain Protoss (only from a macro-strategy point of view).
Stalkers isn t a consistent unit, in the past Yes, but only in WoL.
To resume, the blink ability doesn t fit for a base unit and for now, Stalkers doesn t hold his role of a base unit. Why not imagine Stalkers in a slow-SC2-like ? Very difficult, but to be honest this isn t the kind of unit which help the overall balance.
What do you think about that ? I think a Stalker buff would be good, but how do you buff it against Zerg without making it broken vs Terran? I see Parting do alot of early Stalker play vs Terran and with good micro it already looks potent. I'd use a stalker buff through the use of sentries. The sentry unit should be able to transform into a Energizer variant like it is used in the campaign. It can be like the hellbat where it becomes available if there is a robo or robo support bay. This would help add some much needed healing to stalkers. I think there are some other really cool ideas in the coop missions and main campaign that would be really fun to have in 1v1 too. Yea I kind of wish they would remove FF at this point (since it's kind of useless vs Zerg anyways) and replace it with something that gave early GW units a bit more punch and mobility early on, obviously this would let Protoss apply a bit of aggression/scouting whilst limiting the Zerg's economy. Something for sure, but aye we all know Blizzard looks at SC2 and says, "No monthly subscription? Throw it in the trash!" First of all, bane busts still exist. Second of all - how the fuck would sentry, which is a slow unit, gave a mobility boost? oO It worked that way in the campaign. https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/EnergizerChrono Beam
Boosts targeted allied unit attack and movement speed by 50%. Can be set to autocast; when set to autocast, the energizer will only target units in combat. and https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/HavocSquadSight SC2-LotV Icon1.jpg
Squad Sight
Nearby allied units gain +2 range to their attacks.
Usage
v • e
TargetLock SC2-LotV Icon1.jpg
Target Lock
Increases damage dealt to target enemy unit by 30%. Effect lasts as long as the Havoc remains locked onto the target. Can be set to autocast. Was the campaign imbasentry moving faster than regular sentry? Which was my issue with that. Also I don't like this honestly, if anything Protoss needs less casters and more microable units. And mah banebusts
I want Protoss to have less casters and more micro friendly units as well. The Sentry is a unit that has aged poorly, FF is a shadow of it's former effectiveness and Guardian Shield has always been uninteresting and limited in effectiveness. Why not just turn a caster they already have into something that can bolster mobility and boost the effectiveness of micro? Kind of a two birds with one stone effect.
Guardian Shield - Damage decrease removed, new function = all units inside of Guardian Shield receive a 15% movement speed buff and a 15% attack speed increase.
Obviously this idea is only for examples sake. At least it would allow Blink Stalkers to actually do some damage and Zealots and Adepts to be more nimbly micro managed away, just something along those lines. This would still fit well with the core design archetype of the Protoss army which is heavy robotics support units.
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On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!??
Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance.
It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race...
This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong.
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