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On November 19 2021 22:10 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 21:53 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 21:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Man I wish I lived in the reality that terran supporters see x)
(But of course I know they don't really see it) Yeah, numbers are evil and it's better to not see them, right?  Contradict the numbers =) and I didn't include NA to the totals for a reason  The numbers aren't on your side, as has already been posted earlier in the thread. The top 5 protoss players have been performing worse than the top 5 best zergs and best terrans for every single period since march 2018. There hasn't been a single period in Legacy of the Void where the top 5 protoss were leading against the other two. But again, you know that. You do realize that protoss players on aligulac got their overall rating diminished because of PvP, right? http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=p&nats=all&sort=vp Top 5 PvP players got between 2710 points and 3041 points, while top 5 ZvZ players got between 2905 and 3178 points (http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=z&nats=all&sort=vz) . Top 5 TvT players have between 2871 and 3305 points (http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=t&nats=all&sort=vt). Having your mirror with that much variance will lower your rating altogether, so of course they will seem to "lag" behind with such a criteria. That's why overall prize money / race (it's limited to top 10 players of each race on liquipedia but that's still pretty accurate) is a far better indicator of the well being of the race. Indeed, the latest period of BIG imbalance (similar to broodlord infestor, with many analysts / casters / players / spectators agreeing on the thing) was zerg in 2019. Wanna see how it was reflected in the earnings?  Winnings/2019Zerg: 1.510.435$, Protoss: 982.290$, Terran: 868.249$. That's what imbalance looks like. That's also what most progamers care about (and prestige is usually correlated with the prize money of the tournament anyways, except in some odd cases like WESG). Do you think Rogue cares that Cure has a better aligulac rating than him? He won more prize money in 2021 (and even a GSL as well the same year). Same with Trap who has a lower aligulac rating than Bunny, winning "tier 2" events is still far better than what Bunny accomplished in 2021, and that's very obvious when looking at their earnings that year: 90k$ vs 33k$. Winnings/2021So if people still believe protoss is not doing well at the top level despite earning the most money so far in 2021, they are being delusional.
You are delusional mate if you believe tournament winnings is enough to determine race balance, it's like I've made a point that you can't just look at pure win rates across the board when you judge balance.
The pro player base in SC2 is SO SMALL you can't use data like that when talking about balance because there is to few players who are 100% hardcore pro full time and at equal skill and the difference in winnings is not big at all to begin with.
Using your logic you should look at the best players we have across the world that are close in skill and then tell me who is winning the most cash, If you look at Europe Top 10 players you have 2 Protoss out of 10, Maxpax and Showtime.
NA is a freak region where you have only 3 legit fulltime pro's Astrea,Scarlett and Neeb this region is also giving you bad numbers if you follow your logic because the only Protoss fulltime pro's in NA happen to be Neeb and Astrea which would skew your numbers if you used winnings as a indicator of balance. To much individual skill and few full time pro's in this region.
South Korea which has always had the best Protoss representation in terms of individual skill, this is where the majority of tournament winnings are made, Zest, Trap , Parting and Zoun these have all pulled inn good amount of money for they are all remarkable players, although they don't really win anything except Trap who had a spike in tournament wins but has never been consistent. Which is the common theme among all protoss that I have pointed out in other posts on TL that because of Protoss poor race design they cannot deliver consistent results because the race is to volatile at the very top.
So in short difference in individual skill + the small player base will make using winnings as a way to judge protoss performance in terms of balance invalid.
You can only use this logic if you pool all the pro players that are at close skill level at the very top, then look at winrates, winnings over a long time on current patch and you will get somewhat an indication of balance, and if you look up this number you will see protoss IS VASTLY UNDERPERFORMING AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
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I dont think protoss has a chance until Queens get a nerf
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How to kill Starcraft 2 :
Keep buffing Protoss until protoss top pros are as dominant as zerg pros.
Watch GM be 75% protoss, 4% zerg.
Wonder what went wrong.
How to actually fix protoss:
Nerf easy to use things (voidrays, recall, canon/battery), buff harder to use things (nothing comes to mind sadly LOL maybe stalkers).
Nerf lurkers. Buff hydras vs air. Remove abduct. Buff broodlord range by 1 , and buff its speed a little bit.
Obviously im just brain storming, but i feel like ideas like this is how you fix protoss and ZvP in particular.
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On November 21 2021 11:59 Snakestyle11 wrote:
How to kill Starcraft 2 :
Keep buffing Protoss until protoss top pros are as dominant as zerg pros.
Watch GM be 75% protoss, 4% zerg.
Wonder what went wrong.
How to actually fix protoss:
Nerf easy to use things (voidrays, recall, canon/battery), buff harder to use things (nothing comes to mind sadly LOL maybe stalkers).
Nerf lurkers. Buff hydras vs air. Remove abduct. Buff broodlord range by 1 , and buff its speed a little bit.
Obviously im just brain storming, but i feel like ideas like this is how you fix protoss and ZvP in particular.
I feel like a buff to the Stalker may make a nerf to Lurkers non essential. I would prefer to also see the, "easy things" like you said toned down and high skill cap units like Phoenix and Stalkers to be buffed.
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Reavers in BW are awesome. But I just don't like disruptors in SC2. Feels too gimmicky, and allows Toss too much zoning power (which leads to boring late game stale mates). One Hail Mary comeback unit is enough ('When behind, Dark Shrine'). Disruptors just adds another layer to the "go hard or go home" design of Protoss overall.
Again, this is not so much of balance but the volatile nature of Toss playstyle design.
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On November 21 2021 11:59 Snakestyle11 wrote:
How to kill Starcraft 2 :
Keep buffing Protoss until protoss top pros are as dominant as zerg pros.
Watch GM be 75% protoss, 4% zerg.
Wonder what went wrong.
How to actually fix protoss:
Nerf easy to use things (voidrays, recall, canon/battery), buff harder to use things (nothing comes to mind sadly LOL maybe stalkers).
Nerf lurkers. Buff hydras vs air. Remove abduct. Buff broodlord range by 1 , and buff its speed a little bit.
Obviously im just brain storming, but i feel like ideas like this is how you fix protoss and ZvP in particular.
I think reverting the unnecessary Warpprism nerfs (especially cost) would be quite good.
It got stupidly nerfed after 1 ST with high Protoss represantion and I think that hurt Protoss quite a bit.
Also the Warpprism is a skill unit so promoting its usage would be good for the game
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Just went in an saw that KOB has no Protoss in RO8... seems that we slowly need to speak about the present of Protoss and not the future.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On November 21 2021 23:56 Xamo wrote:
Just went in an saw that KOB has no Protoss in RO8... seems that we slowly need to speak about the present of Protoss and not the future.
No Trap or Zoun no Protoss, as was stated before, Zest isn't very reliable.
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On November 22 2021 00:33 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2021 23:56 Xamo wrote:
Just went in an saw that KOB has no Protoss in RO8... seems that we slowly need to speak about the present of Protoss and not the future. No Trap or Zoun no Protoss, as was stated before, Zest isn't very reliable.
Why are you acting like Trap or Zoun would have won this thing lol.
Edit: sorry I don't want to get back into this nvm. Let's just say that I don't regret my decision not to watch the King of Battles. Maybe it's just your stream of bad luck that continues!
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On November 22 2021 00:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 00:33 deacon.frost wrote:On November 21 2021 23:56 Xamo wrote:
Just went in an saw that KOB has no Protoss in RO8... seems that we slowly need to speak about the present of Protoss and not the future. No Trap or Zoun no Protoss, as was stated before, Zest isn't very reliable. Why are you acting like Trap or Zoun would have won this thing lol. Edit: sorry I don't want to get back into this nvm. Let's just say that I don't regret my decision not to watch the King of Battles. Maybe it's just your stream of bad luck that continues!
I thought tier 2 tournaments aren't relevant?
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On November 22 2021 00:49 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 00:35 Nebuchad wrote:On November 22 2021 00:33 deacon.frost wrote:On November 21 2021 23:56 Xamo wrote:
Just went in an saw that KOB has no Protoss in RO8... seems that we slowly need to speak about the present of Protoss and not the future. No Trap or Zoun no Protoss, as was stated before, Zest isn't very reliable. Why are you acting like Trap or Zoun would have won this thing lol. Edit: sorry I don't want to get back into this nvm. Let's just say that I don't regret my decision not to watch the King of Battles. Maybe it's just your stream of bad luck that continues! I thought tier 2 tournaments aren't relevant?
You caught me in a lie! You win this argument. I am now super engaged in Starcraft 2, and think that protoss has a good chance of winning the next tournament that involves the top players. You have convinced me.
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Tier 2 competitions aren't relevant to the perspective of those only interested in Tier 1 competitions.
But Tier 2 competitions are relevant to the perspective of those claiming that Tier 2 competitions should also be considered when evaluating how well Toss fares competitively.
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On November 22 2021 01:08 RKC wrote:
Tier 2 competitions aren't relevant to the perspective of those only interested in Tier 1 competitions.
But Tier 2 competitions are relevant to the perspective of those claiming that Tier 2 competitions should also be considered when evaluating how well Toss fares competitively.
If there are tier 2 competitions where all the top players are playing then the Tiers are not very interesting. The idea that someone would care about seeing the best players but only when they play in specific tournaments and not in others is a bit silly.
Of course I've never mentioned the distinction between Tier 2 and Tier 1 once, and Charoisaur is just trying to score some gotcha because he's mad at me for not ignoring the observable fact that protoss is extremely unlikely to win a tournament in the current state of Starcraft 2 for some weird reason.
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On November 22 2021 01:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 01:08 RKC wrote:
Tier 2 competitions aren't relevant to the perspective of those only interested in Tier 1 competitions.
But Tier 2 competitions are relevant to the perspective of those claiming that Tier 2 competitions should also be considered when evaluating how well Toss fares competitively. If there are tier 2 competitions where all the top players are playing then the Tiers are not very interesting. The idea that someone would care about seeing the best players but only when they play in specific tournaments and not in others is a bit silly. Of course I've never mentioned the distinction between Tier 2 and Tier 1 once, and Charoisaur is just trying to score some gotcha because he's mad at me for not ignoring the observable fact that protoss is extremely unlikely to win a tournament in the current state of Starcraft 2 for some weird reason.
Maybe I have confused you with some of the other Protoss complainers, apologies then.
However the main argument for Protoss weakness was directed at their underperformance at tier 1 tournament specificially while admitting that they (previously) did fine at tier 2 tournaments.
This tournament doesn't really add to that point as it's a bit of an outlier for tier 2 tournaments.
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On November 22 2021 00:49 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 00:35 Nebuchad wrote:On November 22 2021 00:33 deacon.frost wrote:On November 21 2021 23:56 Xamo wrote:
Just went in an saw that KOB has no Protoss in RO8... seems that we slowly need to speak about the present of Protoss and not the future. No Trap or Zoun no Protoss, as was stated before, Zest isn't very reliable. Why are you acting like Trap or Zoun would have won this thing lol. Edit: sorry I don't want to get back into this nvm. Let's just say that I don't regret my decision not to watch the King of Battles. Maybe it's just your stream of bad luck that continues! I thought tier 2 tournaments aren't relevant?
The tier 1 and tier 2 are still premier events. King of Battles is a major event, so it fails to qualify as a tier 2 event. I believe that the prize pool is too small even if the player pool is top tier.
But it is a great moment to get an example of poor Protoss representation. 3 out of 16 is really bad.
My long post had 1 tournament with bad Protoss representation. We now have 2 examples. I didn't bother looking at most tournaments when I compared race representation.
Can we find more?
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On November 22 2021 00:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2021 00:33 deacon.frost wrote:On November 21 2021 23:56 Xamo wrote:
Just went in an saw that KOB has no Protoss in RO8... seems that we slowly need to speak about the present of Protoss and not the future. No Trap or Zoun no Protoss, as was stated before, Zest isn't very reliable. Why are you acting like Trap or Zoun would have won this thing lol. Edit: sorry I don't want to get back into this nvm. Let's just say that I don't regret my decision not to watch the King of Battles. Maybe it's just your stream of bad luck that continues!
Nobody was saying anything about winning, read the " thread". OMG
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Protoss players say their race is unusable, premier tournament data is provided showing the race is fine, they ask for wider data. Ladder data is provided, they say its irrelevant.
No, your race won't EVER get a buff while it has 50% of GM.ladder and blizzard can put 2 and 2 together. Its absurd as it is, any devs of a game that want to keep players would nerf your race further.
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On November 22 2021 18:53 Morbidius wrote:
Protoss players say their race is unusable, premier tournament data is provided showing the race is fine, they ask for wider data. Ladder data is provided, they say its irrelevant.
No, your race won't EVER get a buff while it has 50% of GM.ladder and blizzard can put 2 and 2 together. Its absurd as it is, any devs of a game that want to keep players would nerf your race further.
I hope the main takeaway for protoss from this thread isn't that we should buff protoss, since that's unlikely to happen in the first place and we can't even prove that it's needed, but rather that we should just stop watching this game and hurting ourselves.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
Nothing's gonna happen! Deal with it. Blizzard isn't touching this game.
Also what a coincidence, Creator almost beats Dark and Trap goes into the RO8.
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EPT
