|
On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it.
It's an unreasonable request, if the top protoss just happen to be worse than the top zergs and top terrans you don't get to demand that they win an equal amount of representation, that would be silly.
|
On November 27 2021 04:35 Vision_ wrote:
[...]I proposed [...] to remove the tag armor. In this way, Stalkers become good against many more expensive units as Immortal, Void Ray, Marauder, Siege Tank, Viking (in Fighter Mode), Ultralisk, Spine Crawler and Lurkers.
Two issues with this list:
1. Fighter mode Vikings only hit air units. Stalkers are not air units. Assault mode Vikings are the ones that can hit Stalkers, but they do not have a bonus vs armored. They have bonus vs mechanical.
2. Ultralisks have no bonus damage. They deal a flat 35 to everything.
So neither Vikings nor Ultralisks would be affected by removing the armored tag from Stalkers.
Well, technically, in team games a Phoenix can lift up a Stalker for a Viking to hit in Fighter mode. That way the armored tag matters.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it.
We have 2 confirmed Protosses, Neeb and Trap. Sure, Neeb won't probably qualify for the main event as he's starting at the RO36 but still, we have 2 confirmed. At this moment we have Zest and Zoun close to go and for example recently retired Parting is still at #10 of the Korean EPT standings, sOs is 12th. And the fact Protoss will suck heavily was known almost 3 years ago. Do you remember when Classic went into the army? Some people were already claiming the doom & gloom of Protoss, because Stats was closely the next one. We were left with Trap, Zest and Zoun and of this trio it looks like Zest entered the pre-army Stats phase (playing for the lulz).
Edit> Also Maxpax, Showtime and Astrea are near being fully qualified.
|
On November 29 2021 01:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. It's an unreasonable request, if the top protoss just happen to be worse than the top zergs and top terrans you don't get to demand that they win an equal amount of representation, that would be silly.
I think this whole "protoss players suck" argument is a baseless BS. Buff protoss and I will start saying Terran & Zerg players suck and it's not not their race in the exactly same logic. If that BS justify protoss' current state, might as well buff protoss so I can sprout the same rhetoric of how untalented Z&T players are and they need to work harder while protoss comfortably wins tournaments. I was being sarcastic.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 29 2021 23:52 highsis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2021 01:38 Nebuchad wrote:On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. It's an unreasonable request, if the top protoss just happen to be worse than the top zergs and top terrans you don't get to demand that they win an equal amount of representation, that would be silly. I think this whole "protoss players suck" argument is a baseless BS. Buff protoss and I will start saying Terran & Zerg players suck and it's not not their race in the exactly same logic. If that BS justify protoss' current state, might as well buff protoss so I can sprout the same rhetoric of how untalented Z&T players are and they need to work harder while protoss comfortably wins tournaments. I was being sarcastic.
It's not like apart from Clem in Europe and Maru in his waves Terrans have so many finalists or titles either. Currently the only race which has more top players are Zergs with Reynor, Rogue, Dark and Serral, followed by Scarlett, DRG and Solar. Name 7 Terrans where 4 of them are contenders for a title. Well, we can stay with - name 7 Terran who are this good  Protoss is at the same stage, but with Zoun not being the toppest top and Trap being in bad form. Imagine if Maru was at bad form - who would have Terrans then? Clem when the road is TvZ only or Cure when the road is TvP only?
|
On November 29 2021 23:52 highsis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2021 01:38 Nebuchad wrote:On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. It's an unreasonable request, if the top protoss just happen to be worse than the top zergs and top terrans you don't get to demand that they win an equal amount of representation, that would be silly. I think this whole "protoss players suck" argument is a baseless BS. Buff protoss and I will start saying Terran & Zerg players suck and it's not not their race in the exactly same logic. If that BS justify protoss' current state, might as well buff protoss so I can sprout the same rhetoric of how untalented Z&T players are and they need to work harder while protoss comfortably wins tournaments. I was being sarcastic.
I don't think top level Protoss players suck, but I can't think of a single foreign Protoss player that could realistically take Serral down.
I know it isn't the supreme gospel of anything, but for October, Aligulac has Protoss at 49.5 % vs. Terran, and 54% vs. Zerg. Quite frankly I don't think balance is an issue, out of all the premier tournaments where Protoss didn't take 1st place, they took 2nd place 5 times, the 6th time they took 2nd was because a Protoss took first, so while I would be in favor of a very slight Stalker buff and or Adept change, is Protoss really so weak?
I know it's dealing in what ifs and make believes, but I firmly believe that if Serral was playing Protoss right now, he would still be crushing, and the topic would be, "Is Protoss overpowered or is Serral just better then everyone?"
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Maru doesn't have bad Protoss offracing, make him switch
|
On November 29 2021 23:52 highsis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2021 01:38 Nebuchad wrote:On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. It's an unreasonable request, if the top protoss just happen to be worse than the top zergs and top terrans you don't get to demand that they win an equal amount of representation, that would be silly. I think this whole "protoss players suck" argument is a baseless BS. Buff protoss and I will start saying Terran & Zerg players suck and it's not not their race in the exactly same logic. If that BS justify protoss' current state, might as well buff protoss so I can sprout the same rhetoric of how untalented Z&T players are and they need to work harder while protoss comfortably wins tournaments. I was being sarcastic.
Ok then you don't think it's the case; that doesn't really matter to me. It's a possibility, so we can't exclude it when talking about the situation.
|
On November 30 2021 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2021 23:52 highsis wrote:On November 29 2021 01:38 Nebuchad wrote:On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. It's an unreasonable request, if the top protoss just happen to be worse than the top zergs and top terrans you don't get to demand that they win an equal amount of representation, that would be silly. I think this whole "protoss players suck" argument is a baseless BS. Buff protoss and I will start saying Terran & Zerg players suck and it's not not their race in the exactly same logic. If that BS justify protoss' current state, might as well buff protoss so I can sprout the same rhetoric of how untalented Z&T players are and they need to work harder while protoss comfortably wins tournaments. I was being sarcastic. Ok then you don't think it's the case; that doesn't really matter to me. It's a possibility, so we can't exclude it when talking about the situation.
Except it's not really a possibility. If you look at mid to high level there's, if anything, a disproportionately high number of Protoss players in basically every scene except EU. Even then, look at those endless round robins for the regionals—tons of Protoss. But none of them can get anything done, and that seems to be the case over all, even in refine with strong pros.
Just saying "oh, they're all just bad" is, beyond being more than a little insulting, not something that lines up with the evidence. Since they have more pro and semi pro players, they have more chances to get strong players, and they indeed have had a ton of strong players. Even just in the past couple years you've got Trap, Stats, Zest, Parting, Classic, herO, Zoun, etc. Players who can win series against the best in the world, repeatedly. They're also world class. It's just that the closest one to really getting the results you'd expect from his calibre is Trap and even he gets called the king of tier 2 because he can't seem to win a Code S or Global Finals.
There are a lot of reasons this might be. But if you want to argue that this is because Trap and every other Protoss is secretly bad, it's on you to prove that. It's not something suggested by any evidence though, as there's more Protoss playing than the other races and the best ones have proved themselves repeatedly.
|
I don't want to argue that. I want to argue that it can either be balance/design or that the top 7-8 best players who play this game just happened to choose other races. Can I prove that if Serral had picked protoss instead of zerg a few years ago he wouldn't be dominating right now, no I can't, so I won't attempt to. All I'm saying is that it's obviously not just bad luck on the protoss side, and therefore, in the context of this thread, I can state that there isn't much hope.
Based on that, yesterday instead of watching the TSL, I watched Wheel of Time! Cool show, didn't make me angry or sad.
Today at work I would usually have watched the Ro8 of the Super Tournament! But I didn't, instead I played all 5 of the daily killer sudoku. Didn't make me angry or sad either. Good choices on my part.
|
On November 30 2021 02:38 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't want to argue that. I want to argue that it can either be balance/design or that the top 7-8 best players who play this game just happened to choose other races. Can I prove that if Serral had picked protoss instead of zerg a few years ago he wouldn't be dominating right now, no I can't, so I won't attempt to. All I'm saying is that it's obviously not just bad luck on the protoss side, and therefore, in the context of this thread, I can state that there isn't much hope.
Based on that, yesterday instead of watching the TSL, I watched Wheel of Time! Cool show, didn't make me angry or sad.
Today at work I would usually have watched the Ro8 of the Super Tournament! But I didn't, instead I played all 5 of the daily killer sudoku. Didn't make me angry or sad either. Good choices on my part.
If it makes you feel any better, I also stopped watching due to protoss.
The only difference is I play zerg
|
France12761 Posts
I guess a lot of players also stopped playing because of Protoss. Way less anger / impression of wasting your time against skytoss and cheeses, although the new maps seemed to alleviate the proxy issues by a lot
|
And there we have the actual reason for the asisine side quests in this thread, without the obfuscating bullshit: "There is no hope for protoss, but we think it's a good thing, because we hate you."
|
No one's talking about the topic because none of the stats support it. Just look at the open cups - 111 wins for protoss. Same as terran, 40 more than zerg.
It's a sample size of 295 tournaments, every week for nearly 2 years. Protoss is fine.
|
On November 29 2021 01:02 highsis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2021 00:40 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. So you want the game to die? Can you imagine what will happen to ladder if they buff protoss even more with no other changes? I know most ppl who watch this game dont play, but damn dude. More protoss buff, and GM will be 60% protoss or more. SC2 balance has never been focused on ladder, has it? Why should it be specifically balanced at GM? How about masters, diamond, gold, etc? Also at this point the pro scene is pretty much dead if you think 60% GM protoss is bad, IEM has 1 protoss out of 16 and unless protoss wins dreamhack last chance (protoss has been barrent with tier 1 victory for years) that's confirmed.
Do you think a pro scene can survive with 5000 viewers average on twitch for biggest tournament? If the population keeps dying, this is where we are heading. Bad balance on ladder level means more ppl quitting (mostly zergs, terran and protoss will follow when they can only play vs toss). Less ppl playing, means less ppl watching.
I am pretty sure pros would rather have 50 000 viewers watching events with a game balance that cares about ladder players more, than to have 10 000 viewers on a good day for the biggest events.
Money talks, and with low viewer count, the scene wont live as long as you think it would if they only balance for the pros. Right now protoss is making so many ppl quit, and you want them to become even stronger, which is insane. Look at top EU pros, they only play vs toss already. Look at top GM of NA. 1 zerg in top 20, a million toss.
You make this even worse and the game is officially dead. IF you played in masters/GM you would know that.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 30 2021 06:40 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2021 01:02 highsis wrote:On November 29 2021 00:40 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. So you want the game to die? Can you imagine what will happen to ladder if they buff protoss even more with no other changes? I know most ppl who watch this game dont play, but damn dude. More protoss buff, and GM will be 60% protoss or more. SC2 balance has never been focused on ladder, has it? Why should it be specifically balanced at GM? How about masters, diamond, gold, etc? Also at this point the pro scene is pretty much dead if you think 60% GM protoss is bad, IEM has 1 protoss out of 16 and unless protoss wins dreamhack last chance (protoss has been barrent with tier 1 victory for years) that's confirmed. Do you think a pro scene can survive with 5000 viewers average on twitch for biggest tournament? If the population keeps dying, this is where we are heading. Bad balance on ladder level means more ppl quitting (mostly zergs, terran and protoss will follow when they can only play vs toss). Less ppl playing, means less ppl watching. I am pretty sure pros would rather have 50 000 viewers watching events with a game balance that cares about ladder players more, than to have 10 000 viewers on a good day for the biggest events. Money talks, and with low viewer count, the scene wont live as long as you think it would if they only balance for the pros. Right now protoss is making so many ppl quit, and you want them to become even stronger, which is insane. Look at top EU pros, they only play vs toss already. Look at top GM of NA. 1 zerg in top 20, a million toss. You make this even worse and the game is officially dead. IF you played in masters/GM you would know that.
Do you think Blizzard will touch this game and miraculously fixes the issues? Most of the issues has been identified as being design flaws, so my bet is that no matter what they do (and mind you, they said they will not touch this game) other issues arise.
|
On November 30 2021 07:43 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2021 06:40 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 29 2021 01:02 highsis wrote:On November 29 2021 00:40 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. So you want the game to die? Can you imagine what will happen to ladder if they buff protoss even more with no other changes? I know most ppl who watch this game dont play, but damn dude. More protoss buff, and GM will be 60% protoss or more. SC2 balance has never been focused on ladder, has it? Why should it be specifically balanced at GM? How about masters, diamond, gold, etc? Also at this point the pro scene is pretty much dead if you think 60% GM protoss is bad, IEM has 1 protoss out of 16 and unless protoss wins dreamhack last chance (protoss has been barrent with tier 1 victory for years) that's confirmed. Do you think a pro scene can survive with 5000 viewers average on twitch for biggest tournament? If the population keeps dying, this is where we are heading. Bad balance on ladder level means more ppl quitting (mostly zergs, terran and protoss will follow when they can only play vs toss). Less ppl playing, means less ppl watching. I am pretty sure pros would rather have 50 000 viewers watching events with a game balance that cares about ladder players more, than to have 10 000 viewers on a good day for the biggest events. Money talks, and with low viewer count, the scene wont live as long as you think it would if they only balance for the pros. Right now protoss is making so many ppl quit, and you want them to become even stronger, which is insane. Look at top EU pros, they only play vs toss already. Look at top GM of NA. 1 zerg in top 20, a million toss. You make this even worse and the game is officially dead. IF you played in masters/GM you would know that. (and mind you, they said they will not touch this game)
Yeah that's another thing that I don't get, isn't it quite obvious that there won't be any more patches? Why are so many people crying about this, you've already won that battle
|
France12761 Posts
Well some pros seemed to hint at another patch, but it’s not sure anything will come at all. It’s not 0% chance though, I guess?
|
On November 30 2021 08:07 Poopi wrote:
Well some pros seemed to hint at another patch, but it’s not sure anything will come at all. It’s not 0% chance though, I guess?
Oh I missed that, do you have a link or something?
|
At this point it seems clear that Skytoss is hard to beat for Zerg who don't have godlike control of their spellcasters or are capable of executing a Queen Walk perfectly; it is also clear that, at the highest level, Skytoss is far from being dominant and, worse, it looks like the only logical option if you are not capable of taking out the Zerg early.
Lurkers shut down ground options too efficiently it seems.
It would be definitely possible to limit the power of Skytoss, limiting the overrepresantation of Protoss in GM and below, AND make the race more competitive at the highest level by adding some strong high skill ceiling option; Warp Prism's pickup range seemed oppressive for a while but it gave top tier players a way to outmicro their opponents in a way your average Master wouldn't have been able to(it had to be nerfed but Blizzard went too far).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
