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France13021 Posts
On November 30 2021 08:10 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2021 08:07 Poopi wrote:
Well some pros seemed to hint at another patch, but it’s not sure anything will come at all. It’s not 0% chance though, I guess? Oh I missed that, do you have a link or something?
https://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/otai15/apparently_there_is_a_new_patch_coming_what_would/
From what I heard recently on a French stream, this thing from three months ago probably happened. But since we don’t really hear about it anymore hard to know how serious this might be.
My bet would be that if they want to patch things out, we should be hearing about it publicly, probably after Katowice / start of the new season.
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So fun to watch across the community Terran and Zerg apologists going hard trying to explain why Protoss representation is getting worse and worse.
"There just happens to be no world class protoss players atm" or "They have all gone to military"
"Europe GM is flooded with Protoss players" ( as if it is an indicator of ANYTHING about pro level )
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On November 30 2021 04:20 Poopi wrote:
I guess a lot of players also stopped playing because of Protoss. Way less anger / impression of wasting your time against skytoss and cheeses, although the new maps seemed to alleviate the proxy issues by a lot
I'm sorry for killing the game by having fun doing things that the game allows you to do.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On November 30 2021 17:56 Drahkn wrote:
So fun to watch across the community Terran and Zerg apologists going hard trying to explain why Protoss representation is getting worse and worse.
"There just happens to be no world class protoss players atm" or "They have all gone to military"
"Europe GM is flooded with Protoss players" ( as if it is an indicator of ANYTHING about pro level )
Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor
Name 4 similarily skilled Terrans or Protosses.
Maru, Clem, Cure(on a good day)
Trap, Zest(when he's not being Zest)
That's my 4 for each race. Your turn.
Zerg has 4 top class players and several good players. Terran has 3 when really try to justify Clem and Cure and Protoss has 2 when you ignore Zest's recent record.
But I dare you to name the players. If the players are good, than it shouldn't be hard to name 4 world class top tier players for Protoss.
Edit> I place Zoun on a lower level. IMO he's not at the very top, but he may get there. At least I hope. Similarly Classic, herO or GumiGod.
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Yes, there are fewer top tier Protoss player now after the wave of enlistments.
They were the most in 2018/2019 tho and we know how this ended.
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If Zerg or Terran was bad would we necessarily call their top players top players though? If Protoss was better it may have more top players than just Trap.
A list of "top players" not having many easy Protoss answers doesn't necessarily say anything about the pool of Protoss players, especially given how many have retired, which strips the pool of players of many of it's pedigreed players who you can assign top tier status to based on prior accomplishment (I remember that stretch of the TL power rankings putting Maru at the top almost exclusively for prior feats when he wasnt winning things but other players were, lol)
If Protoss was stronger would we have Zest, Trap, and Zoun as more firmly "top tier" Protosses? Its hard to say obviously because its all what-ifs, but I'm very skeptical of the idea that it just so happens that Protoss has almost no good players.
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France13021 Posts
Zest is still the top protoss, he made it to GSL finals beating the seemingly invincible offline bo7 Rogue.
It’s just that he has to go to the military and we aren’t sure when, if he will be able to go to Katowice, etc.
Since his loss, his results have worsened for unknown reasons. Could be taking it easy after a hard fought GSL run like Cure, or could be because military approaches…
So yeah, Zest has had a better year than Trap in the big tournaments, with Katowice and code S finals, but less successful in the smaller tournaments.
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On November 30 2021 20:44 Zambrah wrote:
If Zerg or Terran was bad would we necessarily call their top players top players though? If Protoss was better it may have more top players than just Trap.
A list of "top players" not having many easy Protoss answers doesn't necessarily say anything about the pool of Protoss players, especially given how many have retired, which strips the pool of players of many of it's pedigreed players who you can assign top tier status to based on prior accomplishment (I remember that stretch of the TL power rankings putting Maru at the top almost exclusively for prior feats when he wasnt winning things but other players were, lol)
If Protoss was stronger would we have Zest, Trap, and Zoun as more firmly "top tier" Protosses? Its hard to say obviously because its all what-ifs, but I'm very skeptical of the idea that it just so happens that Protoss has almost no good players.
Protoss just got hit hardest by the military drafts. Stats and Classic were the best Protoss players in LotV and are now gone (yeah Classic is back but not at his old level) so it's not surprising that Protoss is underperforming. That would be like Rogue and Dark going to the military or Maru on top of TY.
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Northern Ireland27446 Posts
On November 30 2021 21:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2021 20:44 Zambrah wrote:
If Zerg or Terran was bad would we necessarily call their top players top players though? If Protoss was better it may have more top players than just Trap.
A list of "top players" not having many easy Protoss answers doesn't necessarily say anything about the pool of Protoss players, especially given how many have retired, which strips the pool of players of many of it's pedigreed players who you can assign top tier status to based on prior accomplishment (I remember that stretch of the TL power rankings putting Maru at the top almost exclusively for prior feats when he wasnt winning things but other players were, lol)
If Protoss was stronger would we have Zest, Trap, and Zoun as more firmly "top tier" Protosses? Its hard to say obviously because its all what-ifs, but I'm very skeptical of the idea that it just so happens that Protoss has almost no good players. Protoss just got hit hardest by the military drafts. Stats and Classic were the best Protoss players in LotV and are now gone (yeah Classic is back but not at his old level) so it's not surprising that Protoss is underperforming. That would be like Rogue and Dark going to the military or Maru on top of TY.
The sample size of what I’ll call S class players is that small that, yes as much as people are sniffy about this analysis it’s basically correct.
Especially at this phase of the game too. Things could flip really quickly. Let’s say herO and Classic get back to their top shape and a Maru, or one of Rogue/Dark have to be out of the game for whatever reason, there could be a pretty sizeable shift in racial performance to the degree Protoss is the strongest race in Korea for a period.
Zerg have done a lot in Code S for a while now, but it’s exclusively been on the back of Dark and Rogue
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On November 30 2021 21:24 Poopi wrote:
Zest is still the top protoss, he made it to GSL finals beating the seemingly invincible offline bo7 Rogue.
It’s just that he has to go to the military and we aren’t sure when, if he will be able to go to Katowice, etc.
Since his loss, his results have worsened for unknown reasons. Could be taking it easy after a hard fought GSL run like Cure, or could be because military approaches…
So yeah, Zest has had a better year than Trap in the big tournaments, with Katowice and code S finals, but less successful in the smaller tournaments.
Zest reaching the finals at Katowice was an isolated result while Trap performed terribly; outside of that, Trap reached the semifinals twice in Code S and the final once compared to Zest reaching the finals once, the ro8 once and outright failing to qualify once. I would say those are comparable results.
Trap won five "smaller" tournaments, including two GSL Super Tournaments, this year, compared to Zest bringing home zero. Trap also had an impressive streak, looking like the best player in the world at a certain point and surely the best Protoss for months whereas Zest looked superior for maybe one month around his successful Code S run.
Trap has been the top Protoss in 2021, there is no contest.
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I see I see here we've again got a classic "best players just happened to not choose protoss". Somehow this logic never worked in favor of protoss when they managed to win one or two tournaments, always leading to toss nerfs.
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France13021 Posts
On November 30 2021 22:16 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2021 21:24 Poopi wrote:
Zest is still the top protoss, he made it to GSL finals beating the seemingly invincible offline bo7 Rogue.
It’s just that he has to go to the military and we aren’t sure when, if he will be able to go to Katowice, etc.
Since his loss, his results have worsened for unknown reasons. Could be taking it easy after a hard fought GSL run like Cure, or could be because military approaches…
So yeah, Zest has had a better year than Trap in the big tournaments, with Katowice and code S finals, but less successful in the smaller tournaments. Zest reaching the finals at Katowice was an isolated result while Trap performed terribly; outside of that, Trap reached the semifinals twice in Code S and the final once compared to Zest reaching the finals once, the ro8 once and outright failing to qualify once. I would say those are comparable results. Trap won five "smaller" tournaments, including two GSL Super Tournaments, this year, compared to Zest bringing home zero. Trap also had an impressive streak, looking like the best player in the world at a certain point and surely the best Protoss for months whereas Zest looked superior for maybe one month around his successful Code S run. Trap has been the top Protoss in 2021, there is no contest.
If you only consider the average level across the entire year, Trap has been superior indeed.
But when you consider who had the most impact in 2021 among protosses, it's Zest for sure: reaching the finals by beating Rogue in offline bo7 showed everyone that it was possible. Since players know about Trap and tier 2 events, I'm pretty sure they knew about Rogue insane streak. Therefore, breaking that streak allows other protosses and players in general in the future to perform in similar situations. In the same way, reaching two consecutive Katowice finals shows other protosses that they have a shot.
Zest brought more hope than Trap
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Northern Ireland27446 Posts
On November 30 2021 23:15 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2021 22:16 Xain0n wrote:On November 30 2021 21:24 Poopi wrote:
Zest is still the top protoss, he made it to GSL finals beating the seemingly invincible offline bo7 Rogue.
It’s just that he has to go to the military and we aren’t sure when, if he will be able to go to Katowice, etc.
Since his loss, his results have worsened for unknown reasons. Could be taking it easy after a hard fought GSL run like Cure, or could be because military approaches…
So yeah, Zest has had a better year than Trap in the big tournaments, with Katowice and code S finals, but less successful in the smaller tournaments. Zest reaching the finals at Katowice was an isolated result while Trap performed terribly; outside of that, Trap reached the semifinals twice in Code S and the final once compared to Zest reaching the finals once, the ro8 once and outright failing to qualify once. I would say those are comparable results. Trap won five "smaller" tournaments, including two GSL Super Tournaments, this year, compared to Zest bringing home zero. Trap also had an impressive streak, looking like the best player in the world at a certain point and surely the best Protoss for months whereas Zest looked superior for maybe one month around his successful Code S run. Trap has been the top Protoss in 2021, there is no contest. If you only consider the average level across the entire year, Trap has been superior indeed. But when you consider who had the most impact in 2021 among protosses, it's Zest for sure: reaching the finals by beating Rogue in offline bo7 showed everyone that it was possible. Since players know about Trap and tier 2 events, I'm pretty sure they knew about Rogue insane streak. Therefore, breaking that streak allows other protosses and players in general in the future to perform in similar situations. In the same way, reaching two consecutive Katowice finals shows other protosses that they have a shot. Zest brought more hope than Trap
I’m not sure what hope Zest’s runs instilled, if anything it’s a showcase of why Protoss struggle at that level.
You can prep some really refined stuff for a weekend tournament and take some scalps, and still end up falling short once you’ve shown the new stuff in your locker.
Rogue absolutely smacked Zest in the final the year before, last time it was more of a contest but Reynor was still reasonably comfortable.
Trap’s been consistently good, for the most part until very recently at basically every tournament, Zest’s had two great Katowice runs where he clearly prepared and refined builds specifically for those two tournaments, and still ultimately lost.
Perhaps I’m overly pessimistic, at Katowice level Zergs are like the Borg, you craft some new weapon or strategem to defeat them, and it works but the next Borg are immune and smack you around mercilessly.
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On November 30 2021 23:01 Elantris wrote:
I see I see here we've again got a classic "best players just happened to not choose protoss". Somehow this logic never worked in favor of protoss when they managed to win one or two tournaments, always leading to toss nerfs.
Name me 1 foreign Protoss player who can beat Serral in a BO5 lol
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France13021 Posts
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
So basically in the last 12 months noone? So much for the foreign Protoss hope xD
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Of course you can say that zerg has more top players.. or maybe those players are top because they play this specific race that lets them have a better chance in the biggest tournaments. I'm thinking its closer to the latter. Maxpax would probably already be regarded as a top player like if he had chosen zerg.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On December 01 2021 01:26 TheCheapSkate wrote:
Of course you can say that zerg has more top players.. or maybe those players are top because they play this specific race that lets them have a better chance in the biggest tournaments. I'm thinking its closer to the latter. Maxpax would probably already be regarded as a top player like if he had chosen zerg.
Sure, because all the 2nd places of Trap and some trophies are just him being lucky. And Zoun, Zoun's lucky too! 
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Protoss didn t benefit so much of new units in extensions.
The race haven t a single unit with 1 supply army (while Zerg can produce a mass of Zergling (0.5 supply) and Terran has Marines). Maybe they need units to serve as a cannon fodder.
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On December 01 2021 00:06 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2021 23:01 Elantris wrote:
I see I see here we've again got a classic "best players just happened to not choose protoss". Somehow this logic never worked in favor of protoss when they managed to win one or two tournaments, always leading to toss nerfs. Name me 1 foreign Protoss player who can beat Serral in a BO5 lol
In a balanced game Showtime would have been on par with Clem, Serral and Reynor for years already but we are in a different timeline.
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EPT
