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It's also possible that Toss is a volatile race by nature. Wins secured by outrageous pimpest plays, losses due to facepalm bloopers. Middle-ground solid play is rarely good enough to win championships.
Think of all the Toss legends - sOs, Zest, Classic, MC. Incredible highs, but also laughable lows.
Now think of solid players - Trap and Stats. Still worthy greats, but still fall short by rookie errors (eg Stats dying to early Ling runby to Rogue). Maybe Toss playstyle is just so unforgiving than it's more optimal to go wild and force mistakes out of your opponents rather than to play more reactive and eliminate mistakes of your own.
It's a pity that Rain dropped out so soon. He's probably the closest player that may could've charted a new destiny for Toss based on solid macro play. Unfortunately, we'll never know how this alternative timeline would've worked out. Right now, we are just left with Trap and Stats being living proof that such playstyle is doomed to the pathway of Kong...
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On December 02 2021 13:46 RKC wrote:
It's also possible that Toss is a volatile race by nature. Wins secured by outrageous pimpest plays, losses due to facepalm bloopers. Middle-ground solid play is rarely good enough to win championships.
Think of all the Toss legends - sOs, Zest, Classic, MC. Incredible highs, but also laughable lows.
Now think of solid players - Trap and Stats. Still worthy greats, but still fall short by rookie errors (eg Stats dying to early Ling runby to Rogue). Maybe Toss playstyle is just so unforgiving than it's more optimal to go wild and force mistakes out of your opponents rather than to play more reactive and eliminate mistakes of your own.
It's a pity that Rain dropped out so soon. He's probably the closest player that may could've charted a new destiny for Toss based on solid macro play. Unfortunately, we'll never know how this alternative timeline would've worked out. Right now, we are just left with Trap and Stats being living proof that such playstyle is doomed to the pathway of Kong...
Definitely agree on the Rain part. Felt Rain's playstyle would have answered, for me at least, if Toss is just lacking a truly fundamentally sound player.
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On December 02 2021 13:46 RKC wrote:
It's also possible that Toss is a volatile race by nature. Wins secured by outrageous pimpest plays, losses due to facepalm bloopers. Middle-ground solid play is rarely good enough to win championships.
Think of all the Toss legends - sOs, Zest, Classic, MC. Incredible highs, but also laughable lows.
Now think of solid players - Trap and Stats. Still worthy greats, but still fall short by rookie errors (eg Stats dying to early Ling runby to Rogue). Maybe Toss playstyle is just so unforgiving than it's more optimal to go wild and force mistakes out of your opponents rather than to play more reactive and eliminate mistakes of your own.
It's a pity that Rain dropped out so soon. He's probably the closest player that may could've charted a new destiny for Toss based on solid macro play. Unfortunately, we'll never know how this alternative timeline would've worked out. Right now, we are just left with Trap and Stats being living proof that such playstyle is doomed to the pathway of Kong...
I was reading your post and was about to type "but then there's Rain" and then you mentioned Rain.
Rain is such an enigma in the world of SC2. He's the only Protoss player in the history of the game that had everything from my eye test. He had the mechanics, he had the builds, he had the stamina, the mental fortitude, the game sense, the everything.
Rain was a complete player. He made Protoss look like the way Maru makes Terran look. (And that makes the fact that Maru beat him in the finals all the more impressive btw) or someone like Life made Zerg look.
I've never seen a Protoss to date have the kind of aura that Rain had. Everyone has been as you've said one of two varieties. Classic in his first and last championship run looked like he COULD have had that. Parting at times looked like he could escape the "Micro and Cheesy" stereotype for a moment but then would revert to the mean.
But no one has had the kind of pure SOLID play that Rain had. I wish he had stayed. Protoss really needs a player like him. Trap isn't it, he has too many nerves issues and he falls apart when he's behind. The other Protoss greats are all leaving or going into the military at the moment.
It is a dark time for Protoss. But I do not think game balance is why it's happening.
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Protoss is just too reliant on volatility, it doesn’t reward extremely solid mechanical play like Terran or Zerg. Protoss champions have had to be mind game cheese types because that’s what Protoss rewards you for doing, which means the longer the game goes the less cheesy shit will work and the less Protoss will win. Once the Book has been read then Protoss isn’t left with many other strengths.
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On December 02 2021 14:28 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 13:46 RKC wrote:
It's also possible that Toss is a volatile race by nature. Wins secured by outrageous pimpest plays, losses due to facepalm bloopers. Middle-ground solid play is rarely good enough to win championships.
Think of all the Toss legends - sOs, Zest, Classic, MC. Incredible highs, but also laughable lows.
Now think of solid players - Trap and Stats. Still worthy greats, but still fall short by rookie errors (eg Stats dying to early Ling runby to Rogue). Maybe Toss playstyle is just so unforgiving than it's more optimal to go wild and force mistakes out of your opponents rather than to play more reactive and eliminate mistakes of your own.
It's a pity that Rain dropped out so soon. He's probably the closest player that may could've charted a new destiny for Toss based on solid macro play. Unfortunately, we'll never know how this alternative timeline would've worked out. Right now, we are just left with Trap and Stats being living proof that such playstyle is doomed to the pathway of Kong... I was reading your post and was about to type "but then there's Rain" and then you mentioned Rain. Rain is such an enigma in the world of SC2. He's the only Protoss player in the history of the game that had everything from my eye test. He had the mechanics, he had the builds, he had the stamina, the mental fortitude, the game sense, the everything. Rain was a complete player. He made Protoss look like the way Maru makes Terran look. (And that makes the fact that Maru beat him in the finals all the more impressive btw) or someone like Life made Zerg look. I've never seen a Protoss to date have the kind of aura that Rain had. Everyone has been as you've said one of two varieties. Classic in his first and last championship run looked like he COULD have had that. Parting at times looked like he could escape the "Micro and Cheesy" stereotype for a moment but then would revert to the mean. But no one has had the kind of pure SOLID play that Rain had. I wish he had stayed. Protoss really needs a player like him. Trap isn't it, he has too many nerves issues and he falls apart when he's behind. The other Protoss greats are all leaving or going into the military at the moment. It is a dark time for Protoss. But I do not think game balance is why it's happening.
Yes, I feel Classic was the closest successor to Rain. Then he took a bit of a dark Templar turn before he went to military (but gave us an epic show vs Rogue at Blizzcon - no complaints for that!). Haven't seen much of his games since his return though. Not sure which side of the Toss-up coin he will fall now...
What about Dear? Admittedly I didn't really follow much of his championship run. But his plays during his twilight years has really been sub-par and uninspiring to watch.
But yes, I miss Rain - both in SC2 and BW 
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On December 02 2021 16:28 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 14:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2021 13:46 RKC wrote:
It's also possible that Toss is a volatile race by nature. Wins secured by outrageous pimpest plays, losses due to facepalm bloopers. Middle-ground solid play is rarely good enough to win championships.
Think of all the Toss legends - sOs, Zest, Classic, MC. Incredible highs, but also laughable lows.
Now think of solid players - Trap and Stats. Still worthy greats, but still fall short by rookie errors (eg Stats dying to early Ling runby to Rogue). Maybe Toss playstyle is just so unforgiving than it's more optimal to go wild and force mistakes out of your opponents rather than to play more reactive and eliminate mistakes of your own.
It's a pity that Rain dropped out so soon. He's probably the closest player that may could've charted a new destiny for Toss based on solid macro play. Unfortunately, we'll never know how this alternative timeline would've worked out. Right now, we are just left with Trap and Stats being living proof that such playstyle is doomed to the pathway of Kong... I was reading your post and was about to type "but then there's Rain" and then you mentioned Rain. Rain is such an enigma in the world of SC2. He's the only Protoss player in the history of the game that had everything from my eye test. He had the mechanics, he had the builds, he had the stamina, the mental fortitude, the game sense, the everything. Rain was a complete player. He made Protoss look like the way Maru makes Terran look. (And that makes the fact that Maru beat him in the finals all the more impressive btw) or someone like Life made Zerg look. I've never seen a Protoss to date have the kind of aura that Rain had. Everyone has been as you've said one of two varieties. Classic in his first and last championship run looked like he COULD have had that. Parting at times looked like he could escape the "Micro and Cheesy" stereotype for a moment but then would revert to the mean. But no one has had the kind of pure SOLID play that Rain had. I wish he had stayed. Protoss really needs a player like him. Trap isn't it, he has too many nerves issues and he falls apart when he's behind. The other Protoss greats are all leaving or going into the military at the moment. It is a dark time for Protoss. But I do not think game balance is why it's happening. Yes, I feel Classic was the closest successor to Rain. Then he took a bit of a dark Templar turn before he went to military (but gave us an epic show vs Rogue at Blizzcon - no complaints for that!). Haven't seen much of his games since his return though. Not sure which side of the Toss-up coin he will fall now... What about Dear? Admittedly I didn't really follow much of his championship run. But his plays during his twilight years has really been sub-par and uninspiring to watch. But yes, I miss Rain - both in SC2 and BW
When Dear won GSL and Season finals he looked like that elusive defensive Protoss player. Great defence, great gamesense and knew when to attack. Why he crashed and burned after Blizzcon remains one of the biggest enigmas of Starcraft 2, every other Royal Roader(Zest, Life, Maru) went on to be the greatest of their race.
Or maybe its not an enigma, Protoss is not meant to be played as a defensive macro race, its meant to abuse one of the many proxy/cannon/warpgate/DT bullshit.
Its why there is no consensus GOAT Protoss, all the good ones come pretty close to each other, because the race allows you to just win a tournament even against better opposition, but it doesn't allow domination.
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On December 02 2021 18:30 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 16:28 RKC wrote:On December 02 2021 14:28 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2021 13:46 RKC wrote:
It's also possible that Toss is a volatile race by nature. Wins secured by outrageous pimpest plays, losses due to facepalm bloopers. Middle-ground solid play is rarely good enough to win championships.
Think of all the Toss legends - sOs, Zest, Classic, MC. Incredible highs, but also laughable lows.
Now think of solid players - Trap and Stats. Still worthy greats, but still fall short by rookie errors (eg Stats dying to early Ling runby to Rogue). Maybe Toss playstyle is just so unforgiving than it's more optimal to go wild and force mistakes out of your opponents rather than to play more reactive and eliminate mistakes of your own.
It's a pity that Rain dropped out so soon. He's probably the closest player that may could've charted a new destiny for Toss based on solid macro play. Unfortunately, we'll never know how this alternative timeline would've worked out. Right now, we are just left with Trap and Stats being living proof that such playstyle is doomed to the pathway of Kong... I was reading your post and was about to type "but then there's Rain" and then you mentioned Rain. Rain is such an enigma in the world of SC2. He's the only Protoss player in the history of the game that had everything from my eye test. He had the mechanics, he had the builds, he had the stamina, the mental fortitude, the game sense, the everything. Rain was a complete player. He made Protoss look like the way Maru makes Terran look. (And that makes the fact that Maru beat him in the finals all the more impressive btw) or someone like Life made Zerg look. I've never seen a Protoss to date have the kind of aura that Rain had. Everyone has been as you've said one of two varieties. Classic in his first and last championship run looked like he COULD have had that. Parting at times looked like he could escape the "Micro and Cheesy" stereotype for a moment but then would revert to the mean. But no one has had the kind of pure SOLID play that Rain had. I wish he had stayed. Protoss really needs a player like him. Trap isn't it, he has too many nerves issues and he falls apart when he's behind. The other Protoss greats are all leaving or going into the military at the moment. It is a dark time for Protoss. But I do not think game balance is why it's happening. Yes, I feel Classic was the closest successor to Rain. Then he took a bit of a dark Templar turn before he went to military (but gave us an epic show vs Rogue at Blizzcon - no complaints for that!). Haven't seen much of his games since his return though. Not sure which side of the Toss-up coin he will fall now... What about Dear? Admittedly I didn't really follow much of his championship run. But his plays during his twilight years has really been sub-par and uninspiring to watch. But yes, I miss Rain - both in SC2 and BW When Dear won GSL and Season finals he looked like that elusive defensive Protoss player. Great defence, great gamesense and knew when to attack. Why he crashed and burned after Blizzcon remains one of the biggest enigmas of Starcraft 2, every other Royal Roader(Zest, Life, Maru) went on to be the greatest of their race. Or maybe its not an enigma, Protoss is not meant to be played as a defensive macro race, its meant to abuse one of the many proxy/cannon/warpgate/DT bullshit. Its why there is no consensus GOAT Protoss, all the good ones come pretty close to each other, because the race allows you to just win a tournament even against better opposition, but it doesn't allow domination.
Good insights.
Maybe the difference is that Terran and Zerg can be played offensively and defensively rather seamlessly. Maru, Rogue, and Dark excel due to their killer instincts. But they also have great defensive resilience which allows them to comeback from early game deficits.
Maybe there's something about Toss that makes it difficult for top players to switch between both styles. Personally, as a viewer, Toss under attack just feels under severe intense stress and pressure (remember the time when Zest and Stats just struggled so much against Maru's widow mines drop in HoTS?). Zerg used to suffer a lot, until Queens came to the rescue. So it's not so much of imbalance, but it just takes a very mentally strong player to take the beating and abuse that Toss suffers from Terran and Zerg. So to relieve the stress in a long series against a top class opponent, Toss just has to take the initiative and play funky. Go hard or go home!
Rain seems to have a special Zen-like mindset that plays solid defensive Toss well. But he's really one of a kind...
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Northern Ireland27441 Posts
Rain is one of my absolute GOATs, but one has to remember he played in a less fleshed out era. He laid the groundwork for a solid reactive, complete Protoss, but I don’t think Stats or Classic were really a step down in quality having inherited that kind of mantle.
Us Protoss weren’t exactly spoiled for quality players, we had some of the better BW pros in the Kespa era, so methinks weren’t deficient in players with the mechanical chops to play macro/lategame focused styles.
Parting burst on to prominence with a really hyped macro PvT, before eventually morphing into the Parting of the Soul TrainTM. Creator showed tons of promise and results early as a more cautious player before being on a seemingly endless slump.
Protoss only ever seem to have a build in a matchup for periods, well PvZ especially, not a general approach that they make little tweaks around. Until they’re figured out anyway
Zerg and Terran have builds too of course, but they pull them into a general, more flexible overall game plan that makes use of their stock units.
In a crude sense for Protoss their builds often are the strategy, the other races they’re facilitating the strategy.
I’m unsure how you fix that without a real ground-up redesign.
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That's a good take as well.
Terran has the most stable unit composition from WoL to LoTV - marines, medics, tanks.
Zerg is focused on droning and expanding.
Protoss... just seems to be left with 'flavour of the week' builds dependent on meta (if someone did a montage of all top Toss games every expansion, the games would look so different).
So maybe the trouble with Toss players is that they have to keep evolving with the meta and coming up with new strats, which takes up a lot of precious practice time which could be spent simply optimising mechanics.
(But this is not to say that Terran and Zerg players don't need to and can't be as creative as well. The point is that their baseline strategy is rather solid from the start. So when the likes of Maru, Rogue and Dark get creative, it's even harder for Toss to catch up.)
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No, its delusion because they didn't win the exact tournaments they wanted, followed by a tantrum because they broke the super tournament Protoss spree. Zerg also spent 4 years without a code S trophy(6 if you follow the official narrative). The race has major design problems, undeniable, but its more than well represented at the top.
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Kind of looks like Trap carrying Protoss to me. How many wins does Protoss have without Trap, lol. One NA tournament.
If we exclude the NA stuff because NA is a joke region,
We have Maru, Clem, Cure representing Terran wins,
We have Rogue, Dark, Serral, and Reynor representing Zerg wins,
We have Trap representing Protoss wins.
Thinking Protoss is doing well because the best Protoss player wins is delusional.
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On December 02 2021 21:43 Zambrah wrote:Kind of looks like Trap carrying Protoss to me. How many wins does Protoss have without Trap, lol. One NA tournament. If we exclude the NA stuff because NA is a joke region, We have Maru, Clem, Cure representing Terran wins, We have Rogue, Dark, Serral, and Reynor representing Zerg wins, We have Trap representing Protoss wins. Thinking Protoss is doing well because the best Protoss player wins is delusional.
Ah yes, welcome to the 2018 Serral discussion
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On December 02 2021 22:14 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 21:43 Zambrah wrote:Kind of looks like Trap carrying Protoss to me. How many wins does Protoss have without Trap, lol. One NA tournament. If we exclude the NA stuff because NA is a joke region, We have Maru, Clem, Cure representing Terran wins, We have Rogue, Dark, Serral, and Reynor representing Zerg wins, We have Trap representing Protoss wins. Thinking Protoss is doing well because the best Protoss player wins is delusional. Ah yes, welcome to the 2018 Serral discussion
2018 zergs did place well in every foireign tournament even without serral he often went through zvzs alot to win his titles, not the same. Also imagine what would have happened if we had 3 tournaments where in one no terran would have made ro8 and in the other 2 none would have made ro4 
edit: more like the 2018 maru discussion where this could be more akin to.
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On December 02 2021 22:14 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 21:43 Zambrah wrote:Kind of looks like Trap carrying Protoss to me. How many wins does Protoss have without Trap, lol. One NA tournament. If we exclude the NA stuff because NA is a joke region, We have Maru, Clem, Cure representing Terran wins, We have Rogue, Dark, Serral, and Reynor representing Zerg wins, We have Trap representing Protoss wins. Thinking Protoss is doing well because the best Protoss player wins is delusional. Ah yes, welcome to the 2018 Serral discussion
Or the Taeja, or Maru discussion. Terran is the OG when it comes to having one champion with no one else having success. Been that way since WoL.
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Northern Ireland27441 Posts
On December 02 2021 21:38 Morbidius wrote:No, its delusion because they didn't win the exact tournaments they wanted, followed by a tantrum because they broke the super tournament Protoss spree. Zerg also spent 4 years without a code S trophy(6 if you follow the official narrative). The race has major design problems, undeniable, but its more than well represented at the top.
I think many (most?) of us are sick of the major design problems and how they manifest. Most visibly in almost any Bo7 with Zerg where the shortcomings of the race are frequently exposed in brutal beat downs.
Some of those smackings still haunt my dreams (poor Trap), and linger beyond the pure numbers, where the Protoss collective hasn’t had too terrible a year.
I don’t like Skytoss either, which has been pretty successful for us, but I don’t really enjoy. So even wins in PvZ are frequently pretty sucky.
I have consistently thought PvT has been a decent matchup for ages, not everyone shares that opinion but regardless who wins the game quality is so much higher than PvZ
Protoss I think to a minor degree struggle in that PvP is a bit more volatile than the other mirrors. The 4 top Zergs are basically the 4 best ZvZ players, Maru and TY before were pre-eminent TvTers. Protoss the best players tend to also be good at PvP, but perhaps don’t have quite the same gap to the tiers below.
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I'm looking at the bracket for the ongoing NeXT S2 ( Netease Esports X Tournaments/2021/2) and it's amazing to see how from one tournament to the next things can change quickly.
Two weeks ago it was nothing but doom and gloom for Protoss, but now every Protoss rep finishes top of their groups with only one Terran player making it into the Top 8 at all Maru even lost in qualifiers).
It's a good lesson that things can turn around pretty quickly and we should be wary to panic.
And yes, lots of Zergs in this tournament, but notice that the each Protoss group winner had to go through multiple Zergs.
Now...with that all being said...do I have any belief in the world that Serral will lose a ZvP this tournament? No, not at all. Serral v P is absolutely disgusting and I fear the Protoss will almost surely not win the whole thing.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
So we return to the gloom and doom for Terran, but since we have Maru everything's fine
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On December 02 2021 22:26 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 21:38 Morbidius wrote:No, its delusion because they didn't win the exact tournaments they wanted, followed by a tantrum because they broke the super tournament Protoss spree. Zerg also spent 4 years without a code S trophy(6 if you follow the official narrative). The race has major design problems, undeniable, but its more than well represented at the top. I think many (most?) of us are sick of the major design problems and how they manifest. Most visibly in almost any Bo7 with Zerg where the shortcomings of the race are frequently exposed in brutal beat downs.
If that's the case then we need to return to the ultimate actual problem with Protoss.
Warp Gate.
As long as that mechanic exists. Protoss will be an all in or nothing race. That mechanic is holding the race back because it creates so many fucking problems and it always has. Gateway units CANT be what they should be because you can reinforce from anywhere on the map EN MASSE.
If Protoss players ever want to EVER get serious about redesigning their race and to have Gateway units become better and more self sufficient then Warp Gate HAS to go. It's a bad mechanic. I've been saying it for literally 10 years.
We got rid of the Mothership Core because THAT was a horrible crutch that the race depended on way too much and all of the problems that it created. We need to do the same thing with Warp Gate.
Just because it's "cool" doesn't justify keeping it. As an RTS mechanic it is horrible. You cannot just take everything that matters in map design and throw it out the window because you can reinforce from anywhere on the map with as many units as you have Gateways for. You can't just let a race attack you from anywhere because they have a Pylon somewhere.
Gateway units are balanced around all of the bullshit you can do with the Warp Gate mechanic. That means they will ALWAYS be weaker in a straight up fight with the other races unless backed up with support units that come from traditional structures. This is the way that Protoss is designed. This is the reason Protoss has always had this problem in the midgame.
Warp Gate is the problem. It has ALWAYS been the problem. Blizzard even acknowledged as much when they put a heavy nerf on it via the "Gateway or Nexus near it" solution, but that didn't fix it. It couldn't fix it. The mechanic itself is what needs to be overhauled. It needs to function more similar to what the Nydus Worm is. You can still use it with the Warp Prism but not the way it exists now.
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Northern Ireland27441 Posts
On December 02 2021 23:11 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 22:26 WombaT wrote:On December 02 2021 21:38 Morbidius wrote:No, its delusion because they didn't win the exact tournaments they wanted, followed by a tantrum because they broke the super tournament Protoss spree. Zerg also spent 4 years without a code S trophy(6 if you follow the official narrative). The race has major design problems, undeniable, but its more than well represented at the top. I think many (most?) of us are sick of the major design problems and how they manifest. Most visibly in almost any Bo7 with Zerg where the shortcomings of the race are frequently exposed in brutal beat downs. If that's the case then we need to return to the ultimate actual problem with Protoss. Warp Gate. As long as that mechanic exists. Protoss will be an all in or nothing race. That mechanic is holding the race back because it creates so many fucking problems and it always has. Gateway units CANT be what they should be because you can reinforce from anywhere on the map EN MASSE. If Protoss players ever want to EVER get serious about redesigning their race and to have Gateway units become better and more self sufficient then Warp Gate HAS to go. It's a bad mechanic. I've been saying it for literally 10 years. We got rid of the Mothership Core because THAT was a horrible crutch that the race depended on way too much and all of the problems that it created. We need to do the same thing with Warp Gate. Just because it's "cool" doesn't justify keeping it. As an RTS mechanic it is horrible. You cannot just take everything that matters in map design and throw it out the window because you can reinforce from anywhere on the map with as many units as you have Gateways for. You can't just let a race attack you from anywhere because they have a Pylon somewhere. Gateway units are balanced around all of the bullshit you can do with the Warp Gate mechanic. That means they will ALWAYS be weaker in a straight up fight with the other races unless backed up with support units that come from traditional structures. This is the way that Protoss is designed. This is the reason Protoss has always had this problem in the midgame. Warp Gate is the problem. It has ALWAYS been the problem. Blizzard even acknowledged as much when they put a heavy nerf on it via the "Gateway or Nexus near it" solution, but that didn't fix it. It couldn't fix it. The mechanic itself is what needs to be overhauled. It needs to function more similar to what the Nydus Worm is. You can still use it with the Warp Prism but not the way it exists now.
100% this, been on that train myself for said same decade.
It also is a big part of the frustration other races, especially lower down in level have in playing the race.
I mean it’s not a cool mechanic, it restricts the race’s freedoms in all sorts of ways, but also makes Protoss bloody annoying to face on ladder
If even warp gate existed, but there was a big trade-off like mobility vs production against gateways, of some kind you could have it in some form, or it being tied to the lategame or some combination of both.
Instead it’s outright better than gates, in every way to a baffling degree.
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EPT
