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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 02 2021 23:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 23:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2021 22:26 WombaT wrote:On December 02 2021 21:38 Morbidius wrote:No, its delusion because they didn't win the exact tournaments they wanted, followed by a tantrum because they broke the super tournament Protoss spree. Zerg also spent 4 years without a code S trophy(6 if you follow the official narrative). The race has major design problems, undeniable, but its more than well represented at the top. I think many (most?) of us are sick of the major design problems and how they manifest. Most visibly in almost any Bo7 with Zerg where the shortcomings of the race are frequently exposed in brutal beat downs. If that's the case then we need to return to the ultimate actual problem with Protoss. Warp Gate. As long as that mechanic exists. Protoss will be an all in or nothing race. That mechanic is holding the race back because it creates so many fucking problems and it always has. Gateway units CANT be what they should be because you can reinforce from anywhere on the map EN MASSE. If Protoss players ever want to EVER get serious about redesigning their race and to have Gateway units become better and more self sufficient then Warp Gate HAS to go. It's a bad mechanic. I've been saying it for literally 10 years. We got rid of the Mothership Core because THAT was a horrible crutch that the race depended on way too much and all of the problems that it created. We need to do the same thing with Warp Gate. Just because it's "cool" doesn't justify keeping it. As an RTS mechanic it is horrible. You cannot just take everything that matters in map design and throw it out the window because you can reinforce from anywhere on the map with as many units as you have Gateways for. You can't just let a race attack you from anywhere because they have a Pylon somewhere. Gateway units are balanced around all of the bullshit you can do with the Warp Gate mechanic. That means they will ALWAYS be weaker in a straight up fight with the other races unless backed up with support units that come from traditional structures. This is the way that Protoss is designed. This is the reason Protoss has always had this problem in the midgame. Warp Gate is the problem. It has ALWAYS been the problem. Blizzard even acknowledged as much when they put a heavy nerf on it via the "Gateway or Nexus near it" solution, but that didn't fix it. It couldn't fix it. The mechanic itself is what needs to be overhauled. It needs to function more similar to what the Nydus Worm is. You can still use it with the Warp Prism but not the way it exists now. 100% this, been on that train myself for said same decade. It also is a big part of the frustration other races, especially lower down in level have in playing the race. I mean it’s not a cool mechanic, it restricts the race’s freedoms in all sorts of ways, but also makes Protoss bloody annoying to face on ladder If even warp gate existed, but there was a big trade-off like mobility vs production against gateways, of some kind you could have it in some form, or it being tied to the lategame or some combination of both. Instead it’s outright better than gates, in every way to a baffling degree.
It also removed the Amulet, which makes templars worse considering the other spellcasters(looking at them bugs especially). Like I get it, warp in - storm - storm, bye bye mineral line, wasn't funny, but ... let's move on xD
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On December 02 2021 23:50 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 23:43 WombaT wrote:On December 02 2021 23:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2021 22:26 WombaT wrote:On December 02 2021 21:38 Morbidius wrote:No, its delusion because they didn't win the exact tournaments they wanted, followed by a tantrum because they broke the super tournament Protoss spree. Zerg also spent 4 years without a code S trophy(6 if you follow the official narrative). The race has major design problems, undeniable, but its more than well represented at the top. I think many (most?) of us are sick of the major design problems and how they manifest. Most visibly in almost any Bo7 with Zerg where the shortcomings of the race are frequently exposed in brutal beat downs. If that's the case then we need to return to the ultimate actual problem with Protoss. Warp Gate. As long as that mechanic exists. Protoss will be an all in or nothing race. That mechanic is holding the race back because it creates so many fucking problems and it always has. Gateway units CANT be what they should be because you can reinforce from anywhere on the map EN MASSE. If Protoss players ever want to EVER get serious about redesigning their race and to have Gateway units become better and more self sufficient then Warp Gate HAS to go. It's a bad mechanic. I've been saying it for literally 10 years. We got rid of the Mothership Core because THAT was a horrible crutch that the race depended on way too much and all of the problems that it created. We need to do the same thing with Warp Gate. Just because it's "cool" doesn't justify keeping it. As an RTS mechanic it is horrible. You cannot just take everything that matters in map design and throw it out the window because you can reinforce from anywhere on the map with as many units as you have Gateways for. You can't just let a race attack you from anywhere because they have a Pylon somewhere. Gateway units are balanced around all of the bullshit you can do with the Warp Gate mechanic. That means they will ALWAYS be weaker in a straight up fight with the other races unless backed up with support units that come from traditional structures. This is the way that Protoss is designed. This is the reason Protoss has always had this problem in the midgame. Warp Gate is the problem. It has ALWAYS been the problem. Blizzard even acknowledged as much when they put a heavy nerf on it via the "Gateway or Nexus near it" solution, but that didn't fix it. It couldn't fix it. The mechanic itself is what needs to be overhauled. It needs to function more similar to what the Nydus Worm is. You can still use it with the Warp Prism but not the way it exists now. 100% this, been on that train myself for said same decade. It also is a big part of the frustration other races, especially lower down in level have in playing the race. I mean it’s not a cool mechanic, it restricts the race’s freedoms in all sorts of ways, but also makes Protoss bloody annoying to face on ladder If even warp gate existed, but there was a big trade-off like mobility vs production against gateways, of some kind you could have it in some form, or it being tied to the lategame or some combination of both. Instead it’s outright better than gates, in every way to a baffling degree. It also removed the Amulet, which makes templars worse considering the other spellcasters(looking at them bugs especially). Like I get it, warp in - storm - storm, bye bye mineral line, wasn't funny, but ... let's move on xD
If you got rid of Warp Gate I would HAPPILY support bringing back Khaydarian Amulet. I would be supportive of a list of different buffs you could give to Gateway units especially at the Twighlight Council or Templar Archives level.
But as long as Warp Gate exists. You just can't do it.
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On December 02 2021 21:38 Morbidius wrote:No, its delusion because they didn't win the exact tournaments they wanted, followed by a tantrum because they broke the super tournament Protoss spree. Zerg also spent 4 years without a code S trophy(6 if you follow the official narrative). The race has major design problems, undeniable, but its more than well represented at the top.
You were having such a cool conversation and now you just feel the need to lie about this, I don't understand why.
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Yes Warp Gate has fundamentally been an issue with Protoss design since it's beginnings, and of course, Blizzard always knew best so we never got any meaningful overhauls.
Alot of Protoss's current weakness at the top is power creep though imo. Colossus deathballs were standard and powerful, Vipers came out and Zergs became very skilled with using them. Skytoss deathballs were and still are very strong, but Vipers also possess strong counters to it, along with Microbial Shroud. Chargelot/Immortal/Archon was a staple, but then Zerg got Lurkers.
That's why I in all my diamond Zerg meta knowledge, really think a Lurker nerf would be healthy for the game.
#1. Nerf the Lurker, it's too dominant in all the match ups anyways. Reduce it's HP so that storms can deal with them better on the Protoss end, or potentially remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely. I don't like upgrades that give such volatile power spikes, seems like with Lurkers it's..
#1. The lurkers are out but Protoss doesn't have to be too worried
#2. Okay now they have range so Protoss actually has to respect this
#3. There is now mass Lurkers with Adaptive Talons, if the Protoss isn't on Skytoss his ground army will now proceed to melt.
Probably time for the one guy updating the map pool at Blizzard for SC2 to consider this. I would prefer buffs to Protoss, buffs are always more fun and more invigorating then nerfs, but TvP balance is very delicate, so Blizzard would have to be target down a change that predominantly alters the ZvP match up.
This wouldn't be a balance change as much as a metagame health change.
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On December 02 2021 22:57 starvingbox1 wrote:I'm looking at the bracket for the ongoing NeXT S2 (  Netease Esports X Tournaments/2021/2) and it's amazing to see how from one tournament to the next things can change quickly. Two weeks ago it was nothing but doom and gloom for Protoss, but now every Protoss rep finishes top of their groups with only one Terran player making it into the Top 8 at all Maru even lost in qualifiers). It's a good lesson that things can turn around pretty quickly and we should be wary to panic. And yes, lots of Zergs in this tournament, but notice that the each Protoss group winner had to go through multiple Zergs. Now...with that all being said...do I have any belief in the world that Serral will lose a ZvP this tournament? No, not at all. Serral v P is absolutely disgusting and I fear the Protoss will almost surely not win the whole thing.
Kinda fast on the trigger here. There is a very good chance there will be no protoss in the finals.
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On December 03 2021 00:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Yes Warp Gate has fundamentally been an issue with Protoss design since it's beginnings, and of course, Blizzard always knew best so we never got any meaningful overhauls.
Alot of Protoss's current weakness at the top is power creep though imo. Colossus deathballs were standard and powerful, Vipers came out and Zergs became very skilled with using them. Skytoss deathballs were and still are very strong, but Vipers also possess strong counters to it, along with Microbial Shroud. Chargelot/Immortal/Archon was a staple, but then Zerg got Lurkers.
That's why I in all my diamond Zerg meta knowledge, really think a Lurker nerf would be healthy for the game.
#1. Nerf the Lurker, it's too dominant in all the match ups anyways. Reduce it's HP so that storms can deal with them better on the Protoss end, or potentially remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely. I don't like upgrades that give such volatile power spikes, seems like with Lurkers it's..
#1. The lurkers are out but Protoss doesn't have to be too worried
#2. Okay now they have range so Protoss actually has to respect this
#3. There is now mass Lurkers with Adaptive Talons, if the Protoss isn't on Skytoss his ground army will now proceed to melt.
Probably time for the one guy updating the map pool at Blizzard for SC2 to consider this. I would prefer buffs to Protoss, buffs are always more fun and more invigorating then nerfs, but TvP balance is very delicate, so Blizzard would have to be target down a change that predominantly alters the ZvP match up.
This wouldn't be a balance change as much as a metagame health change.
The Viper exists to counter deathballs. That is what its entire purpose is.
The bigger problem for Protoss is its reliance on death balls in the first place. That's because Gateway units NEED Robotic Bay support to be effective. That reliance on Death Balls is also the main reason Lurkers are so devastating against Protoss in the first place (well that and the way Protoss detection works).
That's because of Warp Gate.
It all goes back to Warp Gate. Warp Gate NEEDS to change if Protoss is going to ever have a chance of being what it can be.
All you have to do is watch a few matches of Brood War to see the difference between a race that has auxiliary units that can be a bonus to its core army, and a race that has an early game army, a midgame army and a late game army with little to no flexibility between them. Warp Gate forces Protoss into predictable unit combinations that has to stay together once they are out of the early game.
If you got rid of Warp Gate you could do so many things to make Protoss better and more versatile.
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Really dont think fundamentally changing Protoss as a race at this point is on the cards (removing WG). If it didnt happen at HotS or LotV release it's not going to happen now especially given the lack of investment into the game. Not to mention without a doubt sweeping changes would be imba for a while.
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On December 03 2021 01:37 Moonerz wrote:
Really dont think fundamentally changing Protoss as a race at this point is on the cards (removing WG). If it didnt happen at HotS or LotV release it's not going to happen now especially given the lack of investment into the game. Not to mention without a doubt sweeping changes would be imba for a while.
I agree, but that isn't the point.
If this thread wants to talk about Protoss as a whole, this topic NEEDS to be a part of it. We can't forget that Warp Gate is a problem just because Blizzard is unlikely to do anything about it.
Maybe now that David Kim is no longer the main balance designer, and maybe now that the game is only in the hands of a handful of interns that we actually have a chance it MIGHT happen.
Either way. The point stands. Warp Gate is a key reason why Protoss has this dillemna of being overpowered on the ladder and lackluster at the pro level. That isn't going to change whether or not Blizzard does anything about it.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2021 01:47 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2021 01:37 Moonerz wrote:
Really dont think fundamentally changing Protoss as a race at this point is on the cards (removing WG). If it didnt happen at HotS or LotV release it's not going to happen now especially given the lack of investment into the game. Not to mention without a doubt sweeping changes would be imba for a while. I agree, but that isn't the point. If this thread wants to talk about Protoss as a whole, this topic NEEDS to be a part of it. We can't forget that Warp Gate is a problem just because Blizzard is unlikely to do anything about it. Maybe now that David Kim is no longer the main balance designer, and maybe now that the game is only in the hands of a handful of interns that we actually have a chance it MIGHT happen. Either way. The point stands. Warp Gate is a key reason why Protoss has this dillemna of being overpowered on the ladder and lackluster at the pro level. That isn't going to change whether or not Blizzard does anything about it.
It's not going to happen. I don't get why people are still hoping some miracle will happen. And even if it happens it is the same Blizzard which gave us this.
Also stop blaming David, he's gone for such a long time now it's not even funny.
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Northern Ireland25249 Posts
On December 03 2021 02:18 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2021 01:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 03 2021 01:37 Moonerz wrote:
Really dont think fundamentally changing Protoss as a race at this point is on the cards (removing WG). If it didnt happen at HotS or LotV release it's not going to happen now especially given the lack of investment into the game. Not to mention without a doubt sweeping changes would be imba for a while. I agree, but that isn't the point. If this thread wants to talk about Protoss as a whole, this topic NEEDS to be a part of it. We can't forget that Warp Gate is a problem just because Blizzard is unlikely to do anything about it. Maybe now that David Kim is no longer the main balance designer, and maybe now that the game is only in the hands of a handful of interns that we actually have a chance it MIGHT happen. Either way. The point stands. Warp Gate is a key reason why Protoss has this dillemna of being overpowered on the ladder and lackluster at the pro level. That isn't going to change whether or not Blizzard does anything about it. It's not going to happen. I don't get why people are still hoping some miracle will happen. And even if it happens it is the same Blizzard which gave us this. Also stop blaming David, he's gone for such a long time now it's not even funny.
He still was a huge part of the team that built the game
Neither me, nor I believe Vindicare believe they’ll ever touch warp gate, doesn’t mean that it’s not at the core of the fundamental problems of the race.
I’ve never played another RTS where as a core production mechanic you can teleport your forces anywhere on the map provided you have one structure/unit there
There is a good, good reason for that.
I’m personally of the opinion that SC2’s balance team have done the greatest job of any RTS balance team ever because they’ve made a game that’s basically balanced with such a fundamentally broken mechanic at its core.
Whether the core design is good or not, (it’s not) the actual balance of SC2 is absolutely miraculous
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On December 03 2021 02:18 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2021 01:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 03 2021 01:37 Moonerz wrote:
Really dont think fundamentally changing Protoss as a race at this point is on the cards (removing WG). If it didnt happen at HotS or LotV release it's not going to happen now especially given the lack of investment into the game. Not to mention without a doubt sweeping changes would be imba for a while. I agree, but that isn't the point. If this thread wants to talk about Protoss as a whole, this topic NEEDS to be a part of it. We can't forget that Warp Gate is a problem just because Blizzard is unlikely to do anything about it. Maybe now that David Kim is no longer the main balance designer, and maybe now that the game is only in the hands of a handful of interns that we actually have a chance it MIGHT happen. Either way. The point stands. Warp Gate is a key reason why Protoss has this dillemna of being overpowered on the ladder and lackluster at the pro level. That isn't going to change whether or not Blizzard does anything about it. It's not going to happen. I don't get why people are still hoping some miracle will happen. And even if it happens it is the same Blizzard which gave us this. Also stop blaming David, he's gone for such a long time now it's not even funny.
No I will continue blaming David Kim because he was the one that said that Warp Gate was "too cool" of a mechanic to ever get rid of.
That was HIS design philosophy. He was the lead fucking balance designer for christ's sake, and he decided that something that looked cool was worth keeping just because it looked cool even though it was even more obvious in WoL than it is now that it was a MASSIVE fucking problem.
No, he doesn't get to escape blame just because he's gone now. This is still HIS mess that HE should have fixed, not left it to others to fix for him.
If I took a shit on the lawn of someone else's house. I don't get to just say that it's not my problem anymore just because I'm 2 blocks away now. I was the one that made the mess. I'm the one that deserves the blame for it. David Kim is the same way.
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Discussions of warpgate are pointless. The marine is a really silly unit, it won't get changed either. That's okay.
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Was templars throwing storm on workers really that big of a problem? I can't really remember complaints about that. Baneling rollins are instant and probably what is the most difficult to react to for all races, except perhaps zerg thanks to creep.
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On December 03 2021 00:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Yes Warp Gate has fundamentally been an issue with Protoss design since it's beginnings, and of course, Blizzard always knew best so we never got any meaningful overhauls.
Alot of Protoss's current weakness at the top is power creep though imo. Colossus deathballs were standard and powerful, Vipers came out and Zergs became very skilled with using them. Skytoss deathballs were and still are very strong, but Vipers also possess strong counters to it, along with Microbial Shroud. Chargelot/Immortal/Archon was a staple, but then Zerg got Lurkers.
That's why I in all my diamond Zerg meta knowledge, really think a Lurker nerf would be healthy for the game.
#1. Nerf the Lurker, it's too dominant in all the match ups anyways. Reduce it's HP so that storms can deal with them better on the Protoss end, or potentially remove Adaptive Talons from the game entirely. I don't like upgrades that give such volatile power spikes, seems like with Lurkers it's..
#1. The lurkers are out but Protoss doesn't have to be too worried
#2. Okay now they have range so Protoss actually has to respect this
#3. There is now mass Lurkers with Adaptive Talons, if the Protoss isn't on Skytoss his ground army will now proceed to melt.
Probably time for the one guy updating the map pool at Blizzard for SC2 to consider this. I would prefer buffs to Protoss, buffs are always more fun and more invigorating then nerfs, but TvP balance is very delicate, so Blizzard would have to be target down a change that predominantly alters the ZvP match up.
This wouldn't be a balance change as much as a metagame health change.
But that is always the crux in asymetrical race design. SC2 is pretty much the only RTS with such unique races, which is especially apparent once you compare it to AOE 4. It is actually amazing that the balance is this good, where all races win approximately the same premier tournaments and the winners and runner ups are similar among all races (Premier Tournaments; 3T 4P 6Z distinct players and 4T 7P 8Z wins).
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Warpgates are something easy to fixate on. Personally I think it's a cool mechanic especially after the fast warp in change. I think one of the biggest issues is that Toss was hurt the most by the LotV mineral patch changes requiring them to spread themselves thinner than before (which we all know Toss struggles when they need to split their army). I dont think this was ever really addressed. Not to mention the anti death ball tech Viper and Lurker.
I'm sure people have and still do think the larva mechanic is imba for example but thats a defining characteristic of zerg.
For example Sentries are something I would love to see get re-worked or even replaced with another unit.
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Northern Ireland25249 Posts
On December 03 2021 03:34 Calliope wrote:
Was templars throwing storm on workers really that big of a problem? I can't really remember complaints about that. Baneling rollins are instant and probably what is the most difficult to react to for all races, except perhaps zerg thanks to creep.
Yes. Albeit not so much on workers as well, on everything.
Be it flanks, backstabs or just generally reinforcing pushes, being able to spawn a Templar with energy for a storm, anywhere you had a pylon/prism was broken enough when players were relatively bad, god knows how broken it would be now.
Baneling runbys are borderline instant they still take time to move across the map, you can track movement.
Especially for Terran, trying to traverse the map where Templar can be warped in, basically anywhere in the shadows and storm you is an experience in horrific tension and dread like you’d see in a Vietnam war film.
People already (sometimes rightly) complain about how frustrating it is tracking Disruptors and having 10 range death balls emerge through the fog. Disruptors are at least big, slow and rally from a robo. Now imagine you can teleport multiple units with storm into the front lines, or in flanking positions, or ready to drop workers.
The Amulet of Electrical Death was considered broken in an era where Protoss barely used Warp Prisms, some may think I’m being hyperbolic but now prisms are standard, as well as generally bigger maps spread out across more fronts I think a Protoss with amulet again would be up there with the most broken/absolutely frustrating things to play against SC2 has ever seen
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On December 03 2021 03:55 Moonerz wrote:
Warpgates are something easy to fixate on. Personally I think it's a cool mechanic especially after the fast warp in change. I think one of the biggest issues is that Toss was hurt the most by the LotV mineral patch changes requiring them to spread themselves thinner than before (which we all know Toss struggles when they need to split their army). I dont think this was ever really addressed. Not to mention the anti death ball tech Viper and Lurker.
I'm sure people have and still do think the larva mechanic is imba for example but thats a defining characteristic of zerg.
For example Sentries are something I would love to see get re-worked or even replaced with another unit.
I also would like for Sentries to be reworked, something that bolsters the overall effectiveness of gateway armies. Something along the lines of boosting Guardian Shield, which was an awesome idea 8 years ago but I think it's just kind of in need of a tune up.
Guardian shield say, also boosting movement speed and/or attack speed of gateway units?
I still think big ambitious changes like that are more or less off the table, I think for now a slight nerf to the Lurker would probably just be easier to implement and would be healthier overall for the state of the game.
edited grammar
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Sentries having a new better Guardian Shield would be nice, only works on ground units, maybe just make it reduce all incomes attacks by two instead of only ranged ones. Maybe have it let shields regen in combat while its active or something. I dunno, its an interesting avenue to theorycraft ideas for though. I like the idea of having a core unit that can be shot down to earn an advantage in the middle of a fight as opposed to units that front load their utility at the start like Ghosts or Templar. The pre-fight caster dancing is fun and all but it makes the fights themselves worse.
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From a nostalgia perspective, the reduced role of Templars in the Toss army is quite sad.
Nerf Colossus and Disruptors - we want stormuuu!
If Zergs and Terrans can have super Lurkers and Ghosts in LoTV, why can't Toss have a boost to a cool nostalgic unit?
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On December 03 2021 12:34 Zambrah wrote:
Sentries having a new better Guardian Shield would be nice, only works on ground units, maybe just make it reduce all incomes attacks by two instead of only ranged ones. Maybe have it let shields regen in combat while its active or something. I dunno, its an interesting avenue to theorycraft ideas for though. I like the idea of having a core unit that can be shot down to earn an advantage in the middle of a fight as opposed to units that front load their utility at the start like Ghosts or Templar. The pre-fight caster dancing is fun and all but it makes the fights themselves worse.
I think it's pretty fair considering force field is more or less obsolete. I mean I know every once in awhile we still get sick force fields but now with Bile it's few and far between compared to the past expansions were force fields were a massive part of high level Protoss play.
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