EPTThe future of Protoss. Is there any hope? - Page 15
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2021 12:34 Zambrah wrote: Sentries having a new better Guardian Shield would be nice, only works on ground units, maybe just make it reduce all incomes attacks by two instead of only ranged ones. Maybe have it let shields regen in combat while its active or something. I dunno, its an interesting avenue to theorycraft ideas for though. I like the idea of having a core unit that can be shot down to earn an advantage in the middle of a fight as opposed to units that front load their utility at the start like Ghosts or Templar. The pre-fight caster dancing is fun and all but it makes the fights themselves worse. since when? It works on air, it used to be a thing to warp in a sentry in phoenix v phoenix and fight over it. The issue is that sentry is instantly dead against anything air that makes sense to counter, in this case mostly BC and Carrier, costs 100 gas, is slow and is ground. But I may have missed the change, wouldn't be first time xD | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
On December 03 2021 03:34 Calliope wrote: Was templars throwing storm on workers really that big of a problem? I can't really remember complaints about that. Baneling rollins are instant and probably what is the most difficult to react to for all races, except perhaps zerg thanks to creep. The Khaydarin Amulet upgrade meant that Protoss could easily defend Terran drops by warping in High Templar that could immediately cast Psionic Storm. This made it much harder for Terran to abuse the immobility of the Protoss deathball because it essentially meant that it was impossible for Protoss to be out-of-position. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2021 03:34 Calliope wrote: Was templars throwing storm on workers really that big of a problem? I can't really remember complaints about that. Baneling rollins are instant and probably what is the most difficult to react to for all races, except perhaps zerg thanks to creep. It was during beta IIRC and it was so much broken it wasn't even funny. It was one of those stupid things you already forgot. Similar to high ground warp ins or ramps to main wider than 1 force field. Or 1-supply roach. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On December 03 2021 00:11 Nebuchad wrote: You were having such a cool conversation and now you just feel the need to lie about this, I don't understand why. I really don't think Protoss had a bad year, if you look only at first places, sure, but the race seems well represented at the top. It has massive design problems, it has advantages and struggles no other race has, but do i think its bad enough to warrant a thread asking if there's hope? No. Does it have hope to win a Katowice or GSL? Absolutely. Not so much hope on the race having a stable standard playstyle or getting reworked. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
Not so much hope on the race having a stable standard playstyle or getting reworked. This is basically the problem. As mentioned much earlier in the thread by Teoita: I would be interested to see what the Protoss win rate is as a function of series duration.I wouldn't be surprised if it went from being pretty good in Bo3s (we can always open the Great Book in a pinch), to average in Bo5s, to pretty crap in Bo7s. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On December 03 2021 20:28 Morbidius wrote: I really don't think Protoss had a bad year, if you look only at first places, sure, but the race seems well represented at the top. It has massive design problems, it has advantages and struggles no other race has, but do i think its bad enough to warrant a thread asking if there's hope? No. Does it have hope to win a Katowice or GSL? Absolutely. Not so much hope on the race having a stable standard playstyle or getting reworked. I mean... Trap is well represented at the top anyways. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2021 20:39 MJG wrote: This is basically the problem. As mentioned much earlier in the thread by Teoita: That's doubtful. There's plenty of 2nd places from Korea where usually you have BO7 semis and finals. It won't look as bad especially for the whole LotV era because we had some Protoss success there. But I don't have the data for it as I am really lazy to do that manually  On December 03 2021 20:42 Zambrah wrote: I mean... Trap is well represented at the top anyways. Neeb has 2 premier titles and one 2nd place. Zest has 2 premier 2nd places as does Zoun. Sure, Trap is miles ahead this year thanks to his 5 titles and 2 2nd places, but it's not like other Protosses doesn't exist. Especially when two finals were PvP. And when Zest got the 2nd place at IEM. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
I think its telling that Protoss is the only race with all of one player that actually manages to win tournaments, Zerg and Terran each have at least three winning players. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2021 20:58 Zambrah wrote: Are we really going to count NA though? Neeb winning NA isn't really indicative of anything because NA is a pretty low-skill region. I think its telling that Protoss is the only race with all of one player that actually manages to win tournaments, Zerg and Terran each have at least three winning players. Counterpoing - Scarlett got recently a nice top4 placement in the Winter finals. As long as it is in the premier tournament category it has to be counted. Edit> ah, the 2nd part of the problem. Stats, Classic, Zest had some great results in the past. Then the army called and Zest started being even more random in being Zest. While the most of the Terran success lies on the back of Maru. IF you remove Maru from the equation you have the EU success of Clem(how often does he win the international tournaments?) and occassional Cure. The only race who has true several champions at this moment are Zergs. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
I disagree with including any primarily NA tournaments, the skill level is just not in the realm of KR/EU. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2021 21:17 Zambrah wrote: EU as a region is good enough to warrant inclusion though, Serral, Clem, and Reynor are all international quality players, they can and do win/go deep, whereas like Neeb isn't really a contender, Scarlett kind of sometimes goes slightly deep but shes not a Reynor, Clem or Serral quality player. I disagree with including any primarily NA tournaments, the skill level is just not in the realm of KR/EU. King of Battles 2 was a major tournament while it had bigger competition level than premier EU. Deal with it. | ||
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darklycid
3541 Posts
On December 03 2021 21:08 deacon.frost wrote: Counterpoing - Scarlett got recently a nice top4 placement in the Winter finals. As long as it is in the premier tournament category it has to be counted. Edit> ah, the 2nd part of the problem. Stats, Classic, Zest had some great results in the past. Then the army called and Zest started being even more random in being Zest. While the most of the Terran success lies on the back of Maru. IF you remove Maru from the equation you have the EU success of Clem(how often does he win the international tournaments?) and occassional Cure. The only race who has true several champions at this moment are Zergs. If you wanna argue for toss doing well counting NA is just weakening your arguments substantially, a region with 3 competitve players and 2 of them are protoss, protoss has to do well. Counting NA is not smth worthwhile for the discussion. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2021 21:26 darklycid wrote: If you wanna argue for toss doing well counting NA is just weakening your arguments substantially, a region with 3 competitve players and 2 of them are protoss, protoss has to do well. Counting NA is not smth worthwhile for the discussion. Whut? Notice, that when I argue that Protoss does well I rarely mention Neeb. This is not what I am doing. What I am saying is that both Terran and Protoss are FUBAR and Zergs are much stronger. Terran has the worst numbers and everybody is crazy about Protoss, because fuck Terrans, right? They have Maru. | ||
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darklycid
3541 Posts
On December 03 2021 21:55 deacon.frost wrote: Whut? Notice, that when I argue that Protoss does well I rarely mention Neeb. This is not what I am doing. What I am saying is that both Terran and Protoss are FUBAR and Zergs are much stronger. Terran has the worst numbers and everybody is crazy about Protoss, because fuck Terrans, right? They have Maru. Well discussion was about counting NA, which is what my statement was about. I don't think most tosses wanna argue about Terran numbers. But they have more than Maru too with Clem performing well in eu + season finals, Heromarine doing some good runs and cure winning GSL etc. Edit: fwiw I don't think the game is too unbalanced ATM, just some problematic interactions in the mus make it less enjoyable currently. Doesn't help that the last events tosses underperformed a bit. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On December 03 2021 21:19 deacon.frost wrote: King of Battles 2 was a major tournament while it had bigger competition level than premier EU. Deal with it. Sure if you want to look at Major events this year I see all of... one Zerg winner, and man what a talent pool, we can't count out the likes of Seither, and Cyan when it comes to being able to take a high stakes international tournament. I mean really, who doesn't count Oceania, LA, HK/TW, and China as absolute bastions of skill, lol. So lets cut the obvious chaf regions and look at tournaments that garner some level of actual respect based on the players involved (aka a decent quantity of Korean or high tier EU players) King of Battles 2, 1st Terran, 2nd Zerg PiG Sty Festival, 1st Zerg, 2nd Zerg StayAtHomeStory Cup 4, 1st Terran, 2nd Zerg ASUS ROG Fall 2021, 1st Terran, 2nd Zerg WardiTV Spring Championship 2021, 1st Protoss, 2nd Terran StayAtHomeStory Cup 3, 1st Protoss, 2nd Zerg Cheeseadelphia Winter Championship 2021, 1st Terran, 2nd Zerg Pulled from Liquipedia, Zest is the lone Protoss winner here (also the only one to appear in any of these finals), Terran has three winners in Maru, ByuN, and Clem, and Zerg has all of one winner in Serral. Expanding to respectable major tournament doesn't really paint a great picture for Protoss either, it leaves us with Zest and Trap for Protoss, Maru, ByuN, Clem, and Cure for Terran, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, and Dark for Zerg, Protoss is clearly experiencing some sort of issue here. If you look at the situation right now its clear if at least one of their two top players isnt in peak form Protoss is basically a non-factor. Lets not fuckin' pretend like Maru is carrying Terran, bare assed minimum Cure is actively playing at a high level and is capable of winning tournaments, he didnt slump into oblivion after losing like Zest. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 03 2021 22:06 Zambrah wrote: Sure if you want to look at Major events this year I see all of... one Zerg winner, and man what a talent pool, we can't count out the likes of Seither, and Cyan when it comes to being able to take a high stakes international tournament. I mean really, who doesn't count Oceania, LA, HK/TW, and China as absolute bastions of skill, lol. So lets cut the obvious chaf regions and look at tournaments that garner some level of actual respect based on the players involved (aka a decent quantity of Korean or high tier EU players) King of Battles 2, 1st Terran, 2nd Zerg PiG Sty Festival, 1st Zerg, 2nd Zerg StayAtHomeStory Cup 4, 1st Terran, 2nd Zerg ASUS ROG Fall 2021, 1st Terran, 2nd Zerg WardiTV Spring Championship 2021, 1st Protoss, 2nd Terran StayAtHomeStory Cup 3, 1st Protoss, 2nd Zerg Cheeseadelphia Winter Championship 2021, 1st Terran, 2nd Zerg Pulled from Liquipedia, Zest is the lone Protoss winner here (also the only one to appear in any of these finals), Terran has three winners in Maru, ByuN, and Clem, and Zerg has all of one winner in Serral. Expanding to respectable major tournament doesn't really paint a great picture for Protoss either, it leaves us with Zest and Trap for Protoss, Maru, ByuN, Clem, and Cure for Terran, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, and Dark for Zerg, Protoss is clearly experiencing some sort of issue here. If you look at the situation right now its clear if at least one of their two top players isnt in peak form Protoss is basically a non-factor. Lets not fuckin' pretend like Maru is carrying Terran, bare assed minimum Cure is actively playing at a high level and is capable of winning tournaments, he didnt slump into oblivion after losing like Zest. Protoss is not experiencing a balance issue and most of the Terran victories from the current years is on Maru, some TY, casually Cure and Clem in EU. Most of the protoss wins were done by players in the military or recently returned. That's the Protoss situation. yes, it's bad, because Classic, Stats and herO got interrupted by the military. Thus we got left with Trap, Zoun and Zest. Edit> And you missed the point by a mile, that KOB2 is major and NA is premier. Deal with it or change categories. And read what I reply to. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12427 Posts
On December 03 2021 20:28 Morbidius wrote: I really don't think Protoss had a bad year, if you look only at first places, sure, but the race seems well represented at the top. It has massive design problems, it has advantages and struggles no other race has, but do i think its bad enough to warrant a thread asking if there's hope? No. Does it have hope to win a Katowice or GSL? Absolutely. Not so much hope on the race having a stable standard playstyle or getting reworked. The top 5 of protoss has literally never been the best top 5 of the three races in all of LotV. It has been the weakest of the three races for every period since 2018. Sometimes it was the weakest by 5%, in the last few ones we're more around 20%. My expectation is that in the biggest tournaments, the people who are going to win are likely to be in the top 5 of their race. Arguably in the top 3. This should lead you to draw some conclusions. Just hear players talk about the game. Rogue was interviewed about who he was fearful of and he said Maru, Serral, Reynor, and... Clem I think? Not sure about the 4th one but it wasn't a protoss. Why doesn't Rogue fear protoss, is he some sort of idiot that can't tell who is likely to win? Just hear casters talk about the game. Sometimes you have someone up 2-0 against Clem or Serral in a Bo5 and you can still get from their commentary that they think Serral or Clem is something like 55-60% to win the series. When Maxpax is down 0-2 vs Heromarine, they're at like 10%. Just hear this thread talk about the game. Everyone is like "oh yeah there's hope for protoss, however I won't bet with you that they'll win Katowice (or a string of tournaments) while getting 10 to 1". I honestly believe that a bunch of you think any terran/zerg is deserving of winning against any protoss, and so you see stuff like Marinelord losing against Showtime and there's this anger about better tools that overtakes you and makes you think protoss wins more often than it does. It doesn't. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
Protoss is not experiencing a balance issue and most of the Terran victories from the current years is on Maru, some TY, casually Cure and Clem in EU. Most of the protoss wins were done by players in the military or recently returned. That's the Protoss situation. yes, it's bad, because Classic, Stats and herO got interrupted by the military. Thus we got left with Trap, Zoun and Zest. Edit> And you missed the point by a mile, that KOB2 is major and NA is premier. Deal with it or change categories. And read what I reply to. What are you saying there? What does King of Battles 2 having a stacked roster have to do with EU premier tournaments? Are you trying to say that EU is a low skill region and is invalid because that would be fucking stupid. Premiers are discussed because theyre considered the pinnacle of tournaments, what is your point exactly? "Change categories," you mean like listing the Major tournaments with respectable rosters? That doesn't make Protoss look good, Terran did better than Protoss in Majors and Premiers, lol. The only thing Protoss excels at is winning in the low-level regions like NA/TW/HK/Oceania, etc. | ||
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