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On December 07 2021 04:21 absinthfee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2021 02:28 Elantris wrote:On December 04 2021 22:33 deacon.frost wrote:
Kinda reminds me spoiled children. I would want to see a different world champion than a zerg and hey, tough luck, huh? You realize last time protoss won blizzcon in HotS? Blizzcon doesn't exist anymore. Protoss was in the finals of IEM(Zest) and GSL twice (Zest and Trap) this year alone. Yeah they did not win, but its not like those finals could have gone differently and this entire debate would be meaningless. Lately a couple tournaments have been bad for protoss, but its not like they do not have representation.
well, the whole point of this discussion is the long time of toss being a non-winner in bigger tourneys. Trap has been a short exception. Its not just blizzcon or IEM final. However, it is just these kind of finals toss will not win in the future. b07. No chance a toss will win if there is a lot to gain from it.
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On December 07 2021 07:21 aringadingding wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 04:21 absinthfee wrote:On December 05 2021 02:28 Elantris wrote:On December 04 2021 22:33 deacon.frost wrote:
Kinda reminds me spoiled children. I would want to see a different world champion than a zerg and hey, tough luck, huh? You realize last time protoss won blizzcon in HotS? Blizzcon doesn't exist anymore. Protoss was in the finals of IEM(Zest) and GSL twice (Zest and Trap) this year alone. Yeah they did not win, but its not like those finals could have gone differently and this entire debate would be meaningless. Lately a couple tournaments have been bad for protoss, but its not like they do not have representation. well, the whole point of this discussion is the long time of toss being a non-winner in bigger tourneys. Trap has been a short exception. Its not just blizzcon or IEM final. However, it is just these kind of finals toss will not win in the future. b07. No chance a toss will win if there is a lot to gain from it.
Yeah. The two most prestigious tournaments are the Season Finals (formerly WCS Global Finals) and Code S. Protoss has not won a Season Final since sOs in 2015 and it's been more than four years for Code S. Saying "lately a couple tournaments have been bad for protoss" is deliberately misrepresenting reality and ignoring what people have actually been talking about for pages.
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I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day?
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On December 07 2021 11:23 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 07:21 aringadingding wrote:On December 07 2021 04:21 absinthfee wrote:On December 05 2021 02:28 Elantris wrote:On December 04 2021 22:33 deacon.frost wrote:
Kinda reminds me spoiled children. I would want to see a different world champion than a zerg and hey, tough luck, huh? You realize last time protoss won blizzcon in HotS? Blizzcon doesn't exist anymore. Protoss was in the finals of IEM(Zest) and GSL twice (Zest and Trap) this year alone. Yeah they did not win, but its not like those finals could have gone differently and this entire debate would be meaningless. Lately a couple tournaments have been bad for protoss, but its not like they do not have representation. well, the whole point of this discussion is the long time of toss being a non-winner in bigger tourneys. Trap has been a short exception. Its not just blizzcon or IEM final. However, it is just these kind of finals toss will not win in the future. b07. No chance a toss will win if there is a lot to gain from it. Yeah. The two most prestigious tournaments are the Season Finals (formerly WCS Global Finals) and Code S. Protoss has not won a Season Final since sOs in 2015 and it's been more than four years for Code S. Saying "lately a couple tournaments have been bad for protoss" is deliberately misrepresenting reality and ignoring what people have actually been talking about for pages.
But Zest and Trap came close to it this year and imo did not lose the bo7 due to balance. Zest did beat Rogue in a bo7 on his way to the GSL finals, so it is definitely possible. He actually also beat cure this year in a bo7 (TSL 7), but could not deliver for the GSL final. I do not see the reason to include data from before the latest balance patch if we talk about balance.
"Lately a couple tournaments have been bad for protoss" means that the last 3-4 tournaments have been atrocious for protoss representation ( no protoss in the final 4), which is more worrysome compared to protoss losing in the finals in the biggest tournaments of the year time and time again.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day?
Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk.
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On December 07 2021 19:14 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day? Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk.
I mean you can always say the other player just played better, let's take e.g. 2018 when terran outside of maru didn't do well i guess the other players just always played better 
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On December 07 2021 19:17 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 19:14 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day? Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk. I mean you can always say the other player just played better, let's take e.g. 2018 when terran outside of maru didn't do well i guess the other players just always played better
Protoss has statistically similar data to Terran over the last 4-ish years. So if Protoss is in a bad state, so is Terran and vice versa. If Terran is fine, then Protoss with MORE finals must be even better. Yes, Terran has more titles though, so they have ot be fine.
I mean Zerg has more titles, more final appearances, more top players. You name it, they have it. And yet somehow Terran is fine to everybody while Protoss is basically dead.
I honestly think that it's because PvZ is such an unwatchable pathetic mess.
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On December 07 2021 19:36 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 19:17 darklycid wrote:On December 07 2021 19:14 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day? Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk. I mean you can always say the other player just played better, let's take e.g. 2018 when terran outside of maru didn't do well i guess the other players just always played better Protoss has statistically similar data to Terran over the last 4-ish years. So if Protoss is in a bad state, so is Terran and vice versa. If Terran is fine, then Protoss with MORE finals must be even better. Yes, Terran has more titles though, so they have ot be fine. I mean Zerg has more titles, more final appearances, more top players. You name it, they have it. And yet somehow Terran is fine to everybody while Protoss is basically dead. I honestly think that it's because PvZ is such an unwatchable pathetic mess.
I think it's more that perception is different from stats, with terran we had multiple good runs recently with maru wining clem doing great in eu or cure winning the gsl etc. Meanwhile recently protoss managed to miss out some ro4s or ro8s in one case, obv that makes protoss fans unhappy especially when at the same time you always get to hear how easy your race is , protossed etc.
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On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day?
Kinda a big coincidence how zerg/terran player always happen to be the 'better player' don't you think? Easy to point out the mistakes, but players from other races make them to, its just that protoss is the most unforgiving race where one second of distraction can cost you the game (ling runby, 2+ banes one shoting probes, widow mine drops).
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On December 07 2021 19:43 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 19:36 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 19:17 darklycid wrote:On December 07 2021 19:14 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day? Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk. I mean you can always say the other player just played better, let's take e.g. 2018 when terran outside of maru didn't do well i guess the other players just always played better Protoss has statistically similar data to Terran over the last 4-ish years. So if Protoss is in a bad state, so is Terran and vice versa. If Terran is fine, then Protoss with MORE finals must be even better. Yes, Terran has more titles though, so they have ot be fine. I mean Zerg has more titles, more final appearances, more top players. You name it, they have it. And yet somehow Terran is fine to everybody while Protoss is basically dead. I honestly think that it's because PvZ is such an unwatchable pathetic mess. I think it's more that perception is different from stats, with terran we had multiple good runs recently with maru wining clem doing great in eu or cure winning the gsl etc. Meanwhile recently protoss managed to miss out some ro4s or ro8s in one case, obv that makes protoss fans unhappy especially when at the same time you always get to hear how easy your race is , protossed etc.
Maybe. But to me it seems the obsession with PvZ (as seen in the otherthread) may come from the PvZ state. Every time Protoss loses to a Zerg I just want to scream - and what the fuck was he supposed to do against this? And every time a Protoss wins it just feels like he made it to the Mars with a biplane.
It just feels like Zerg starts with a huge advantage and it's a Protoss uphill battle. But at the same time pro Protoss players say it's "just" unwatchable and unfunny, but otherwise fine. Not sure if they're just polite or what.
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Aligulac rankings tell the story: http://aligulac.com/periods/
Protoss is always the lagging race at top level for years. So its a valid point.
As a Protoss fan when a big tournament starts you just hope that at least one Protoss is left in the semis, you dont even dream about winning.
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Northern Ireland27440 Posts
On December 07 2021 19:46 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 19:43 darklycid wrote:On December 07 2021 19:36 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 19:17 darklycid wrote:On December 07 2021 19:14 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day? Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk. I mean you can always say the other player just played better, let's take e.g. 2018 when terran outside of maru didn't do well i guess the other players just always played better Protoss has statistically similar data to Terran over the last 4-ish years. So if Protoss is in a bad state, so is Terran and vice versa. If Terran is fine, then Protoss with MORE finals must be even better. Yes, Terran has more titles though, so they have ot be fine. I mean Zerg has more titles, more final appearances, more top players. You name it, they have it. And yet somehow Terran is fine to everybody while Protoss is basically dead. I honestly think that it's because PvZ is such an unwatchable pathetic mess. I think it's more that perception is different from stats, with terran we had multiple good runs recently with maru wining clem doing great in eu or cure winning the gsl etc. Meanwhile recently protoss managed to miss out some ro4s or ro8s in one case, obv that makes protoss fans unhappy especially when at the same time you always get to hear how easy your race is , protossed etc. Maybe. But to me it seems the obsession with PvZ (as seen in the otherthread) may come from the PvZ state. Every time Protoss loses to a Zerg I just want to scream - and what the fuck was he supposed to do against this? And every time a Protoss wins it just feels like he made it to the Mars with a biplane. It just feels like Zerg starts with a huge advantage and it's a Protoss uphill battle. But at the same time pro Protoss players say it's "just" unwatchable and unfunny, but otherwise fine. Not sure if they're just polite or what.
Trap’s first two GSL final losses felt borderline unwinnable, I don’t think Trap even played that badly
Trap’s third loss I don’t think he played as well, but on a less oppressive PvZ meta, he could conceivably have won if he’d brought his A game
As well as Cure played, Trap especially played below his PvT best, and Zest made some really baffling errors. Was frustrating to see, but Protoss absolutely could have, arguably should have taken this season’s GSL.
A different kind of frustration from Rogue/Dark curbstomping Trap, where like yourself I’m going ‘how the fuck do you win a series against this?’
I think our collective perception is shaped by PvZ and how it plays and feels. Regardless of whose supported race wins, TvZ delivers frequently excellent matches that have a good flow.
As a Protoss watching PvZ worst case your lad gets crushed in a manner that makes the matchup seem broken, best case your player scrapes through with either a series of tight builds, or grinding it out with Skytoss which isn’t exactly entertaining
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On December 07 2021 19:46 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 19:43 darklycid wrote:On December 07 2021 19:36 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 19:17 darklycid wrote:On December 07 2021 19:14 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day? Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk. I mean you can always say the other player just played better, let's take e.g. 2018 when terran outside of maru didn't do well i guess the other players just always played better Protoss has statistically similar data to Terran over the last 4-ish years. So if Protoss is in a bad state, so is Terran and vice versa. If Terran is fine, then Protoss with MORE finals must be even better. Yes, Terran has more titles though, so they have ot be fine. I mean Zerg has more titles, more final appearances, more top players. You name it, they have it. And yet somehow Terran is fine to everybody while Protoss is basically dead. I honestly think that it's because PvZ is such an unwatchable pathetic mess. I think it's more that perception is different from stats, with terran we had multiple good runs recently with maru wining clem doing great in eu or cure winning the gsl etc. Meanwhile recently protoss managed to miss out some ro4s or ro8s in one case, obv that makes protoss fans unhappy especially when at the same time you always get to hear how easy your race is , protossed etc. Maybe. But to me it seems the obsession with PvZ (as seen in the otherthread) may come from the PvZ state. Every time Protoss loses to a Zerg I just want to scream - and what the fuck was he supposed to do against this? And every time a Protoss wins it just feels like he made it to the Mars with a biplane. It just feels like Zerg starts with a huge advantage and it's a Protoss uphill battle. But at the same time pro Protoss players say it's "just" unwatchable and unfunny, but otherwise fine. Not sure if they're just polite or what.
I agree, even as a person who's biased for Terran. It's heart-wrenching to watch PvZ so much since against most zergs it's practically a foregone conclusion. Serral is facing Trap in TSL as well as Zest in NeXT in both semis and I think a majority of people will give it to Serral taking both protoss down. I'd be surprised if either Protoss can even bring to close in and get a couple wins in both best of 5's.
PvZ feels like it's in a state where even the top protoss get punished too heavily for making a mistake or two and it'll cost them games quite easily.
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Nobody is going to talk about how MaxPax, our beloved Danish Prince of Protoss, just took down Lambo and Reynor 6-0 to win the 100th ESL EU Weekly? A remarkable performance from our best foreign hope.
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On December 07 2021 22:49 starvingbox1 wrote:
Nobody is going to talk about how MaxPax, our beloved Danish Prince of Protoss, just took down Lambo and Reynor 6-0 to win the 100th ESL EU Weekly? A remarkable performance from our best foreign hope.
I don't think it's going to change anyones sentiment that Protoss is underpowered against Zerg at the top level..
That being said..
MAXPAX FIGHTING! Sweeping Reynor is no small feat :O
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On December 07 2021 22:49 starvingbox1 wrote:
Nobody is going to talk about how MaxPax, our beloved Danish Prince of Protoss, just took down Lambo and Reynor 6-0 to win the 100th ESL EU Weekly? A remarkable performance from our best foreign hope.
Once he gets to the finals/semis of something big people will start talking more seriously. So far he reminds Cure who was beast online but offline...
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On December 07 2021 21:35 DrunkenJedi wrote:Aligulac rankings tell the story: http://aligulac.com/periods/Protoss is always the lagging race at top level for years. So its a valid point. As a Protoss fan when a big tournament starts you just hope that at least one Protoss is left in the semis, you dont even dream about winning.
Many others have tried to make this point but it doesn't register. They don't really care.
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This is why terran whining is meme because there is always that terran guy who cries about terran in protoss thread, in every thread.
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On December 07 2021 19:17 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 19:14 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day? Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk. I mean you can always say the other player just played better, let's take e.g. 2018 when terran outside of maru didn't do well i guess the other players just always played better
Note also that when people say "in 2018 outside of Maru Terran didn't do well" nobody jumps in to say "ACTUALLY Ty and Innovation got to the finals so Terran was doing fine" or "GSL S3 was TvT so even without Maru Terran still would have won" or "half of the players in S2 Round of 8 were Terrans so they're actually performing above average" and all that nonsense.
And at least if you play like Maru you actually win. Try having to play like Trap.
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On December 08 2021 01:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 21:35 DrunkenJedi wrote:Aligulac rankings tell the story: http://aligulac.com/periods/Protoss is always the lagging race at top level for years. So its a valid point. As a Protoss fan when a big tournament starts you just hope that at least one Protoss is left in the semis, you dont even dream about winning. Many others have tried to make this point but it doesn't register. They don't really care.
Careful using aligulac to support your hypothesis - it's also reporting toss is favored in pvz
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EPT
