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Nebuchad
Switzerland12462 Posts
On December 08 2021 04:09 InfCereal wrote: Careful using aligulac to support your hypothesis - it's also reporting toss is favored in pvz That doesn't contradict my hypothesis. I think protoss is favoured against zerg when players aren't playing extremely well. Which is why the GM ladder is full of protoss for example. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16064 Posts
On December 07 2021 19:44 TheCheapSkate wrote: Kinda a big coincidence how zerg/terran player always happen to be the 'better player' don't you think? Easy to point out the mistakes, but players from other races make them to, its just that protoss is the most unforgiving race where one second of distraction can cost you the game (ling runby, 2+ banes one shoting probes, widow mine drops). I agree, Zest deciding to attack into a turtling 2-base terran while on 4 base with a huge eco lead was an incredibly minor mistake but due to his race it lost him the game. | ||
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Pentarp
227 Posts
On December 08 2021 05:15 Charoisaur wrote: I agree, Zest deciding to attack into a turtling 2-base terran while on 4 base with a huge eco lead was an incredibly minor mistake but due to his race it lost him the game. Grand-finals nerves also don't exist. Protoss has no hope. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 08 2021 03:45 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Note also that when people say "in 2018 outside of Maru Terran didn't do well" nobody jumps in to say "ACTUALLY Ty and Innovation got to the finals so Terran was doing fine" or "GSL S3 was TvT so even without Maru Terran still would have won" or "half of the players in S2 Round of 8 were Terrans so they're actually performing above average" and all that nonsense. And at least if you play like Maru you actually win. Try having to play like Trap. 2018 Premier tournaments: 9 zerg titles, 2 2nd places -> 11 zergs in the finals 4 Terran titles, 2 2nd places -> 6 terrans in the finals 2 Protoss titles ,10 2nd places -> 12 Protoss in the finals I wonder why people felt Terran was weak, when the finals representation was 11:6:12 (Z : T : P) 2021 Premier tournaments: 5 Protoss titles, 6 2nd places (+2/1 if NA) 6 Zerg titles, 6 2nd places (+1/2 if NA) 4 Terran titles, 4 2nd places 12:8:11 Z/T/P I wonder why I state that Terran is as bad if not in worse situation. That's without NA, with NA it's 15:8:14 Edit 2> But it's all Trap!!!! OK, let's remove the most represented players of each race Trap has 7 finals(5/2) -> 12:8:4 Maru has 4 finas(1/3) -> 12:4:4 Reynor has 4 finals(or Serral) -> 8:4:4 8:4:4 Without NA. Damn it. | ||
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aringadingding
481 Posts
On December 08 2021 19:20 deacon.frost wrote: 2018 Premier tournaments: 9 zerg titles, 2 2nd places -> 11 zergs in the finals 4 Terran titles, 2 2nd places -> 6 terrans in the finals 2 Protoss titles ,10 2nd places -> 12 Protoss in the finals I wonder why people felt Terran was weak, when the finals representation was 11:6:12 (Z : T : P) 2021 Premier tournaments: 5 Protoss titles, 6 2nd places (+2/1 if NA) 6 Zerg titles, 6 2nd places (+1/2 if NA) 4 Terran titles, 4 2nd places 12:8:11 Z/T/P I wonder why I state that Terran is as bad if not in worse situation. That's without NA, with NA it's 15:8:14 Edit 2> But it's all Trap!!!! OK, let's remove the most represented players of each race Trap has 7 finals(5/2) -> 12:8:4 Maru has 4 finas(1/3) -> 12:4:4 Reynor has 4 finals(or Serral) -> 8:4:4 8:4:4 Without NA. Damn it. It kinda is "all Trap" when it comes to toss premier wins. IF we exclude NA. Trap is the ONLY toss who have won a premier the last TWO years. Wheras Terrans has Cure, TY, Clem, Maru. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On December 08 2021 19:20 deacon.frost wrote: 2018 Premier tournaments: 9 zerg titles, 2 2nd places -> 11 zergs in the finals 4 Terran titles, 2 2nd places -> 6 terrans in the finals 2 Protoss titles ,10 2nd places -> 12 Protoss in the finals I wonder why people felt Terran was weak, when the finals representation was 11:6:12 (Z : T : P) 2021 Premier tournaments: 5 Protoss titles, 6 2nd places (+2/1 if NA) 6 Zerg titles, 6 2nd places (+1/2 if NA) 4 Terran titles, 4 2nd places 12:8:11 Z/T/P I wonder why I state that Terran is as bad if not in worse situation. No one's wondering why people felt Terran was weak in 2018, I'm wondering why people won't acknowledge Protoss is weak now. I noticed you didn't count the titles separately in your non Trap/Maru column. Didn't like what it showed? Incidentally, using only 2021 stats is also misrepresenting how long Protoss has sucked. 2019-2021 non foreigner only Premier tournaments: 8 Protoss titles 9 Terran titles 20 Zerg titles Pretty even, right? But that's entirely carried by Trap's monstrous early 2021 performance. So here's without that Trap/Maru carry factor (not even going to bother with Zerg, they've got a billion champions): 2 Protoss titles 5 Terran titles Trap represents 3/4 of all Protoss titles for the period, Maru not even half of Terran's. But you may consider this unfair, since I stopped just before 2018, Maru's obvious carry year. I did this because summer 2019 is how far back you have to go to include any not-Trap Protoss champions, but let's keep it going up to 2017, winter 2017 being the last time Protoss won an actual GSL, so that I don't unfairly misrepresent Maru's Terran dominance. 2017-2021 non foreigner only Premier tournaments: 14 Protoss titles 19 Terran titles 28 Zerg titles Without Trap/Maru 8 Protoss titles 11 Terran titles So even including Maru's best year, and two years where Trap won literally nothing, they come out mostly even carrying around 42% of their race's titles, and with Terran performing better on either end: Maru did better than Trap, and non-Maru Terran did better than non-Trap Protoss. I would certainly say that thanks to Trap's amazing performance, Protoss had a better year than Terran in 2021, but it's an outlier. Protoss has been consistently doing the worst for half of StarCraft II's existence. That's not having a bad year or individual variance among players. As you say, "Damn it". | ||
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sim999999
23 Posts
- The lack of top players : previous messages evoke that there is only Trap, but with stats gone it's quite logical that only trap carry the race (and for a long time during peak sc2 trap was not at the top) ; Terran have : Maru (always belong in the top 3 terrans), Cure (TY GONE), clem (young and insane mechanically), zerg has rogue, dark, serral, reynor. Zoon is not really an elite player for most of his carreer he was on bench with SKT1 and was certainly not at the top (think zest in prime, stats, rain, sos in prime) he improove a bit but he's not maru or stats sorry to say.Creator was never really an elite player to begin with. Maxpax is upcoming but not quite there. Other foreigners like harstem, mana are good players but were never at the top and probably never will. Showtime is a solid player but missing something not sure what is it. Zest is on the go and past his prime like SOS, he can still generate incidents with build orders but that's it. - Race design : - gateway units are garbage thanks to warp gate there protoss need to rely on expensive units, if you loose these units without killing the opponent / trading really well it's likely insta GG in PvZ you can just trade zealots otherwise you overrun, no trading = boring game. - Hero units like mothership are dumb as hell and should not exist in a RTS game - In general flying units are boring, flying units should be support / caster units (raven, phoenix arbiters, corsairs in broodwar), void rays will always be lame When you think about it there is quite a gap when you watch a maru / clem with good terrans (uthermal etc), same with zerg, but with protoss not so much.A player with better mechanics playing protoss does not gain much compared to terran or zerg. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12462 Posts
On December 09 2021 01:04 sim999999 wrote: When you think about it there is quite a gap when you watch a maru / clem with good terrans (uthermal etc), same with zerg, but with protoss not so much.A player with better mechanics playing protoss does not gain much compared to terran or zerg. I see why you would think that but it's too harsh a statement imo. There are a few things that only Parting does (the famous Flash moment years ago, and I'm thinking of a game against Heromarine recently where he outplayed the fuck out of him - but also it's Parting so like it happens quite often). Maxpax has his moments, and when Neeb was the best he had his moments as well. The potential is there, it's just that when you mess up with protoss you're dead in the next five minutes, while with terran you can fail like five times in a row and the game is about even because your units are more expendable, and as a result you have more opportunities to try cute shit. | ||
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sim999999
23 Posts
The potential is there, it's just that when you mess up with protoss you're dead in the next five minutes, while with terran you can fail like five times in a row and the game is about even because your units are more expendable, and as a result you have more opportunities to try cute shit. I agree completely, that's on race design the margin for error in protoss is too small, in P v Z you just can't disengage property you loose all your robo units, with terran you can pick up and retreat drop else where etc but the blame is not on terran it's on protoss design. 80% of the games we already know who's is alive and who's dead after on battle in P v X (if there is a battle, currently it is a camping fiesta) | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On December 09 2021 01:11 Nebuchad wrote: I see why you would think that but it's too harsh a statement imo. There are a few things that only Parting does (the famous Flash moment years ago, and I'm thinking of a game against Heromarine recently where he outplayed the fuck out of him - but also it's Parting so like it happens quite often). Maxpax has his moments, and when Neeb was the best he had his moments as well. The potential is there, it's just that when you mess up with protoss you're dead in the next five minutes, while with terran you can fail like five times in a row and the game is about even because your units are more expendable, and as a result you have more opportunities to try cute shit. Unfortunately its the truth. The way the races are designed Zerg has the highest skill ceiling, then Terran, then Protoss. So even if Trap was as good of a player as lets say Serral (and I think they are actually quite close), he would never achieve that level of success because he plays toss. He is still good enough to win here and there but not that consistently and on the biggest stages. He would have to be a better player than Serral overall to compensate for his race disadvantage. The other part you stated depends on the matchup. In PvZ, yes, if P screwes up the game is usually over immediately while Zerg can make several mistakes and take more risks and be fine (again, race design). But in PvT its definitely not the case. Protoss can vary their playstyle more in this matchup and I would say its kinda even more both races in terms of forgiveness for mistakes | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12462 Posts
On December 09 2021 02:59 MarianoSC2 wrote: The other part you stated depends on the matchup. In PvZ, yes, if P screwes up the game is usually over immediately while Zerg can make several mistakes and take more risks and be fine (again, race design). But in PvT its definitely not the case. Protoss can vary their playstyle more in this matchup and I would say its kinda even more both races in terms of forgiveness for mistakes I think the opposite. In PvZ, especially air play, usually the decision will be reached a lot later in the game and there are very few opportunities to kill your opponent, so there's more room to make a mistake and be in a decent position later (of course sometimes there are long death animations but that happens in every match-up). In PvT the terran is in your face for the entirety of the midgame, and you rely on very specific things to defend the attacks. So you could have a colossus misplaced at some point, the terran kills it and you're instantly dead. Or you don't have enough map vision and the terran surprises you with a big drop, you're instantly dead. I tend to agree with you that there is a bigger skill ceiling for terran and especially for zerg, but this isn't exactly what was said. In my opinion there are many instances where you can tell the difference in skill between a very good protoss and one of the best protosses, in the same way that you can tell the difference in skill between a very good terran and one of the best terrans. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26795 Posts
On December 09 2021 03:19 Nebuchad wrote: I think the opposite. In PvZ, especially air play, usually the decision will be reached a lot later in the game and there are very few opportunities to kill your opponent, so there's more room to make a mistake and be in a decent position later (of course sometimes there are long death animations but that happens in every match-up). In PvT the terran is in your face for the entirety of the midgame, and you rely on very specific things to defend the attacks. So you could have a colossus misplaced at some point, the terran kills it and you're instantly dead. Or you don't have enough map vision and the terran surprises you with a big drop, you're instantly dead. I tend to agree with you that there is a bigger skill ceiling for terran and especially for zerg, but this isn't exactly what was said. In my opinion there are many instances where you can tell the difference in skill between a very good protoss and one of the best protosses, in the same way that you can tell the difference in skill between a very good terran and one of the best terrans. It’s a different skillset, one that seems a tad under appreciated with Protoss players. Being consistently in great defensive positions, managing tech transitions smoothly, pouncing on a weakness in defence etc. It’s been a decade but there are still folks who don’t seem to understand the game in terms beyond ‘their micro and stutterstep is harder so they’re better’, which is just beyond ridiculous. Protoss is a race that sits on a razor’s edge of precision, ok they have plenty of bullshit builds in their armoury. They can’t just bludgeon you with crazy mechanics and a giant economical hammer like the real top Zergs can, or the huge micro potential that the top Terrans can make use of. If there’s a problem with racial asymmetry, it’s that the racial niches aren’t equivalently potent across all matchups. We’re zoning back into PvZ, as I don’t think PvT has been grossly unbalanced in either direction for ages. Honestly I don’t think the matchup is a particular issue at all. In PvZ though, generally is the tricky/strategic race’s tools equivalent to the best exponents of reactive defensive play? They’re just not. Zest and Trap are the best PvZers we’ve got and their miles behind their Z counterparts. And most of those Zerg counterparts don’t even regularly play EPT cups to inflate their rating. So god knows what those numbers look like if the likes of Serral, Dark, Rogue regularly played weeklies. As it is they gap the best PvZers without padding their stats | ||
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aringadingding
481 Posts
If there was ONE person who was in a final and repeatedly made weird stuff and lost, then yes, That person might have been choking in stressful moments. However, this is not the explanation of the Toss not winning in the bigger tourneys (except from Trap and NA). Logically, it would be VERY strange if a race who is very well represented in tourneys and in GM ladder consists of people who choke, as a whole. The most logical and easy explanation is most often the most closest to the truth and that is that in a bo7, in a tournament everyone wants to win, toss suffers. It is a race that is VERY unforgiving of mistakes, and this is NOT a sign of choke (in general), even though it can look like that if you do not think. I remember many finals where the casters (and chat, oh the amazing twitch chat) pointed out mistakes from BOTH persons. I cannot recall what final, but i remember, for example, the casters mentioning a lot about serrals mistake. BUT, in the end he won. No problem there. The problem for toss, is that a mistake can completely evaporate the army, or is reduced a little big too much and requires a little bit too long to regain its strength - and this looks like a big mistake since it a bad engagement ended the game, more or less. Another problem is that, yes, toss has a pretty solid amount of units that can make A LOT of damage. Every change in the meta has required some new adaption for toss. And because of the strength in those units, a new strategy can look ridiculous, but as time moves on, and also because of the fact that many people run into toss in ladder and in the early stages of tournaments, T and Z figur P out. And when P, with all its cheese and strong units are figured out, they are doomed. And in the end of a big final this is most likely the case why toss so seldom manages to win the biggest titles. And we all know Terran fans are from the beginning the most whiny people (no, not all ofc), its been a constant that is almost comforting. But what if Terran is the choking race? I mean, it could also be that Terran is OP but they do not win more because of terran players are choking. I have a hard time imagine that someone can show me finals or ro4 when a terran lost, when they played a perfect game. Not a misclick, not a bad decision, not floating minerals for a second unnecessary. I doubt this is the case. So, no, the reason why toss players are not winning premier tournaments is NOT because it is a race with choking players. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On December 09 2021 04:00 aringadingding wrote: So, no, the reason why toss players are not winning premier tournaments is NOT because it is a race with choking players. Race with choking players, that sounds ridiculously funny :D Did someone actually suggest that? I mean Trap is a massive choker, and being the best protoss it tends to be more visible because he is in the spotlight, but suggesting toss as race are chokers is dumb lol | ||
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aringadingding
481 Posts
On December 09 2021 04:18 MarianoSC2 wrote: Race with choking players, that sounds ridiculously funny :D Did someone actually suggest that? I mean Trap is a massive choker, and being the best protoss it tends to be more visible because he is in the spotlight, but suggesting toss as race are chokers is dumb lol Nah, noone have said it inherently a fact, ofc. But, some people have pointed out that trap and zest, for example, made some mistakes. My main point was that it is very much possible to find errors in ANY final. And also, that some sligtht mistakes for toss, is more common to escalate into a substantial deficit, compared to a slight mistake of Z or T. In general, on average! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26795 Posts
On December 09 2021 04:18 MarianoSC2 wrote: Race with choking players, that sounds ridiculously funny :D Did someone actually suggest that? I mean Trap is a massive choker, and being the best protoss it tends to be more visible because he is in the spotlight, but suggesting toss as race are chokers is dumb lol He won how many tournaments, has the record for consecutive GSL Ro8s+ and outside of a bad last Katowice he’s mostly carried Protoss results wise for what, 2 years now? Outside of that Katowice, and some underwhelming results recently I can’t think of much choking he did outside of against Cure last GSL season, where the world’s best PvT player 100% didn’t show it, and played badly. He’s won more tournaments in 2 years than most outside the absolute elite have won in their whole careers, he’s never bombed out in GSL groups, he’s clutched reverse sweeps in finals. I don’t think this choker tag stands up to scrutiny whatsoever. If anything, if not 100% of the time he’s been pretty damn clutch the last 2 years. If folks want to argue he’s not as good as the usual Zerg suspects or Maru, well that’s another argument. Not even channelling my inner Gemini but his performance the last 2 years are just not indicative of a choker at all | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden592 Posts
On December 09 2021 04:18 MarianoSC2 wrote: Race with choking players, that sounds ridiculously funny :D Did someone actually suggest that? I mean Trap is a massive choker, and being the best protoss it tends to be more visible because he is in the spotlight, but suggesting toss as race are chokers is dumb lol Trap was a choker 5 years ago. Is there anything suggesting his mistakes now are chokes? They seem so small and not clumped up. Trap isn't missing shade cancel on 10+ adepts scouting opponent's army twice in a series (vs TY in 2016). He isn't flying 3 oracles into the same mine (don't remember who he played), isn't move commanding 2 scouting stalkers past the opponent's stalker, losing them, and moving the sentry instead of the hallucination to the opponent's base (vs Stats in 2017 iirc). Trap was great then, if you removed all his major mistakes. He stopped choking and became great. At least that's how I see it. What do you see as signs of choking from Trap? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16064 Posts
On December 09 2021 04:58 Drfilip wrote: Trap was a choker 5 years ago. Is there anything suggesting his mistakes now are chokes? They seem so small and not clumped up. Trap isn't missing shade cancel on 10+ adepts scouting opponent's army twice in a series (vs TY in 2016). He isn't flying 3 oracles into the same mine (don't remember who he played), isn't move commanding 2 scouting stalkers past the opponent's stalker, losing them, and moving the sentry instead of the hallucination to the opponent's base (vs Stats in 2017 iirc). Trap was great then, if you removed all his major mistakes. He stopped choking and became great. At least that's how I see it. What do you see as signs of choking from Trap? I say he's a choker because he plays vastly better in tier 2 tournaments than in tier 1 tournaments. In tier 2 tournaments he beat Serral and Reynor both in bo7s, also beat Dark multiple times in bo5s and did well against anybody else but he just couldn't bring it at the biggest stage. Like the last GSL finals vs Dark where he overcommitted in one game and lost everything, unnecessarily lost a game to scouted Nydus because he missed a changeling in another. You will probably say 'yeah Protoss is just more unforgiving' but then why did this only happen to him in the GSL and in other tournaments he looked almost invincible? IEM Katowice and the series vs Cure are two other examples. The GSL finals he played in 2019 though probably weren't his fault as ZvP really was broken back then | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26795 Posts
On December 09 2021 06:55 Charoisaur wrote: I say he's a choker because he plays vastly better in tier 2 tournaments than in tier 1 tournaments. In tier 2 tournaments he beat Serral and Reynor both in bo7s, also beat Dark multiple times in bo5s and did well against anybody else but he just couldn't bring it at the biggest stage. Like the last GSL finals vs Dark where he overcommitted in one game and lost everything, unnecessarily lost a game to scouted Nydus because he missed a changeling in another. You will probably say 'yeah Protoss is just more unforgiving' but then why did this only happen to him in the GSL and in other tournaments he looked almost invincible? It’s a GSL finals, you still have to make it through the gauntlet. Taking out Maru in playoffs isn’t something you can do without some mental fortitude. His first two I think he performed fine, he just got brutalised, I don’t think he played well against Dark last time granted. I don’t really buy the tier 1/2 distinction outside of Katowice, and outside of latency considerations. Especially for a Protoss player, it’s harder to push through a bracket with Serral and Reynor added than not. Added Terrans are basically immaterial, they’re not going to be better than Maru (or Cure recently) TvP. Added Zergs well Serral especially is an absolute ZvP monster Field and bracket dependent of course, but especially for Protoss given PvZ issues. Serral and Reynor are leagues above the rest of Korea unless you’re called Dark or Rogue. I’d rate both Katowice and international tournaments above Code S at present. If we’re purely talking TvZ Clem is one of the absolute best outside of maybe Maru, and Reynor and Serral are a tier above every other Zerg outside of Rogue and Dark It’s not peak Kespa era where international players were filling the spots of better players at international tournaments, Code S is missing some of the best talent in the scene. | ||
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kingism
25 Posts
With the current meta already figured out, all possible early game harassment strategies against zerg are figured out and can be defended. What this means is that, top zergs these days will come out on top into the mid game and snowball into victory unless they make a big mistake from defending the early game harassments (the top ones pretty much don't). This also means that even at the highest skill level, a Terran or Protoss unfortunately still has to rely on Zerg to make mistakes in order to win - just executing your strategy close to perfection does not lead to victory since you will be behind if zerg defends it properly (which is likely since meta is figured out). This is why top zergs like Serral who has fantastic mechanics and have memorized the protoss and terran playbook have a close to 100% (I remember its 90+%) win-rate against protoss for example. In fact, diving deeper into this, even with a new patch that changes up the dynamics and introduces new harassment timings etc, the meta must eventually come to a point where zerg is able to defend every possible harassment, otherwise terran / protoss who play perfectly can keep abusing the strategy and always win out, which I'm sure Blizzard won't allow to happen. Blizzard also unlikely will allow the existance of a strategy that can only be defended non-deterministically (based on luck). So if the eventual state of stability for the game is such that every strategy can be defended by zerg in some deterministic way, then zerg will always have the advantage against the other two races via the observation stated above, which is what we are seeing right now. | ||
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