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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 10 2021 01:33 Moonerz wrote:
I agree that adaptive talons is a bit much. I forget what game it was but I believe Zest had some zealots that he was going to use in a run by, saw the lurkers and ran the zealots away but the lurkers just chased after them burrowed and killed them. If nothing else that is just a silly looking interaction to see a siege unit chase down what are intended to be fairly mobile units lol.
It's even stupider in the TvZ. Oh, look, tanks on high ground, let's run into them and speed burrow. And it works  When I saw Dark doing this I was questioning everything. No Vipers, just mass of lurkers burrowing next to tanks. Mostly because lurkers are siege units like the tanks, but unlike tanks they have godlike siege speed upgrade.
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On December 10 2021 00:24 Beelzebub1 wrote:
- Nerf Lurker HP so that Psi Storm and Immortals can deal with them more reliably. I think this nerf would be a more ZvP centric change because for the most part Terrans engage Lurkers with Liberators, Ghost snipe, and Siege Tanks. I don't know the exact numbers on the tank shots but I'm pretty sure an HP reduction wouldn't affect the way snipe interacts with the Lurker because the damage is instant and ability damage. Feel free to correct me on this though.
Lurker has got 200 hp, 1 armour. Attribute biological and armored.
Liberator does 75 damage per shot unupgraded, maximum 90 damage per shot.
Steady targeting (Ghosts "snipe") deals 175 damage.
Siege tank deals 70 damage per shot without upgrades, maximum 85 damage per shot.
Psionic storm deals 80 damage per storm.
Immortal deals 50 damage per shot, 65 with full upgrades.
Purification nova (Disruptor) deal 145 damage.
3 shots from an Immortal with full upgrades, and no armour upgrades for the Lurker, deals 192 damage.
This is the only break point that exists earlier for Protoss than for Terran. Unupgraded Terran units are slightly worse, but upgraded units are better than the Psionic storm.
This is only considering an isolated Lurker, not any AoE or splash damage. Storm has got the widest area, while Liberator Concord Cannon is single target attack.
Generally, reducing Lurker HP is greatly helping Terran (one Snipe or 2 normal attacks) while Protoss gets a slight boost (need 2 full time Storms, 5.7 seconds, or 3 Immortal attacks).
It has the opposite effect from what you intended.
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Just quit and move on. There is no space for Protoss in sc2. Protoss has always been the weakest race and other races just whine about Protoss.
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On December 10 2021 22:44 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2021 00:24 Beelzebub1 wrote:
- Nerf Lurker HP so that Psi Storm and Immortals can deal with them more reliably. I think this nerf would be a more ZvP centric change because for the most part Terrans engage Lurkers with Liberators, Ghost snipe, and Siege Tanks. I don't know the exact numbers on the tank shots but I'm pretty sure an HP reduction wouldn't affect the way snipe interacts with the Lurker because the damage is instant and ability damage. Feel free to correct me on this though.
Lurker has got 200 hp, 1 armour. Attribute biological and armored. Liberator does 75 damage per shot unupgraded, maximum 90 damage per shot. Steady targeting (Ghosts "snipe") deals 175 damage. Siege tank deals 70 damage per shot without upgrades, maximum 85 damage per shot. Psionic storm deals 80 damage per storm. Immortal deals 50 damage per shot, 65 with full upgrades. Purification nova (Disruptor) deal 145 damage. 3 shots from an Immortal with full upgrades, and no armour upgrades for the Lurker, deals 192 damage. This is the only break point that exists earlier for Protoss than for Terran. Unupgraded Terran units are slightly worse, but upgraded units are better than the Psionic storm. This is only considering an isolated Lurker, not any AoE or splash damage. Storm has got the widest area, while Liberator Concord Cannon is single target attack. Generally, reducing Lurker HP is greatly helping Terran (one Snipe or 2 normal attacks) while Protoss gets a slight boost (need 2 full time Storms, 5.7 seconds, or 3 Immortal attacks). It has the opposite effect from what you intended.
I appreciate you posting this, perhaps removal of Adaptive Talons would be the best way to go. I dislike the upgrade even as a Zerg player, I don't care for upgrades that remove key weaknesses from strong units resulting in a gigantic power spike.
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On December 11 2021 00:56 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2021 22:44 Drfilip wrote:On December 10 2021 00:24 Beelzebub1 wrote:
- Nerf Lurker HP so that Psi Storm and Immortals can deal with them more reliably. I think this nerf would be a more ZvP centric change because for the most part Terrans engage Lurkers with Liberators, Ghost snipe, and Siege Tanks. I don't know the exact numbers on the tank shots but I'm pretty sure an HP reduction wouldn't affect the way snipe interacts with the Lurker because the damage is instant and ability damage. Feel free to correct me on this though.
Lurker has got 200 hp, 1 armour. Attribute biological and armored. Liberator does 75 damage per shot unupgraded, maximum 90 damage per shot. Steady targeting (Ghosts "snipe") deals 175 damage. Siege tank deals 70 damage per shot without upgrades, maximum 85 damage per shot. Psionic storm deals 80 damage per storm. Immortal deals 50 damage per shot, 65 with full upgrades. Purification nova (Disruptor) deal 145 damage. 3 shots from an Immortal with full upgrades, and no armour upgrades for the Lurker, deals 192 damage. This is the only break point that exists earlier for Protoss than for Terran. Unupgraded Terran units are slightly worse, but upgraded units are better than the Psionic storm. This is only considering an isolated Lurker, not any AoE or splash damage. Storm has got the widest area, while Liberator Concord Cannon is single target attack. Generally, reducing Lurker HP is greatly helping Terran (one Snipe or 2 normal attacks) while Protoss gets a slight boost (need 2 full time Storms, 5.7 seconds, or 3 Immortal attacks). It has the opposite effect from what you intended. I appreciate you posting this, perhaps removal of Adaptive Talons would be the best way to go. I dislike the upgrade even as a Zerg player, I don't care for upgrades that remove key weaknesses from strong units resulting in a gigantic power spike.
Without talons, lurkers are terrible against terran. It just becomes a worse, more expensive, later game siege tank that can be sniped.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Terrans have this bizarre complex where if they aren't the center of any and all balance and aren't the True Underpowered Race they get all huffy.
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I don't think Protoss is as unplayable as some people here say (the reasons have been explained thoroughly)
But a small buff to boost their performance a bit would probably be appropiate like Warpprism cost -50 (which was a stupid thing to increase anyway after 1 tournament in which Zerg struggled with Immortal allins).
Massive changes like Lurker nerfs etc are absolutely not needed imo
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On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need!
Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL!
Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special).
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On December 11 2021 03:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need! Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL! Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special).
Are you even fucking reading the thread?
On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals. IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals. If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals "But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing. Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included) Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1) Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM) Serral - 4, 2 (0) Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA Clem - 3, 2 (0) Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA Maru - 3, 1 (0) Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL) Zoun - 2, 0 (0) Zest - 2, 0 (0) Cure - 1, 1 (GSL) Dark - 1, 1 (GSL) Solar - 1, 0 (0) Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals. Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough. Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well. As it seems valid for 2021.
AND NO ONE REPLIED TO THIS POST IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. You whiners are a fucking joke.
User was warned for this post
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On December 11 2021 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't think Protoss is as unplayable as some people here say (the reasons have been explained thoroughly)
But a small buff to boost their performance a bit would probably be appropiate like Warpprism cost -50 (which was a stupid thing to increase anyway after 1 tournament in which Zerg struggled with Immortal allins).
Massive changes like Lurker nerfs etc are absolutely not needed imo
I agree that Protoss is playable (at least for Trap) BUT a buff is needed at top pro level, because Aligulac shows clearly that top protosses have been struggling throughout LotV. WarpPrism is the obvious target here, I would revert both the cost nerf and the pickup range nerf. I'd like the Archon opening to be viable again in PvZ.
Removing Flux Vanes (or however it is written) at the same time would be nice, specially for below-pro players. Void Rays should not have a late-game buff.
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Well I think someone should close this thread everything has been said, anyways there is no patch incoming and even if there's one after katowice it will not change the world, Blizzard can't even fix the damn ladder, it makes no sense to discuss about all of this. Move on the game was great but it's probably the end it was still a great run.
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Northern Ireland25282 Posts
On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2021 07:33 WombaT wrote:
TLDR you don’t win what, 6 tournaments the last 2 years with a bunch of silvers and top 4s, set a record for consecutive Code S round of 8s with a reverse sweep in there to win a tournament if you are a ‘choker’
It’s silly. It’s a framing that doesn’t correlate with reality.
Trap’s 2019-21 results are outstanding by any metric. He’s been by a distance the best Protoss player.
If Trap is getting bodied in GSL finals he’s either fucked up or the matchup is just brutal when it hits Bo7
I don’t think incidentally that Trap is quite at his level now, perhaps he’s dispirited or something, but he’s not playing as cleanly. You do realize Code S RO4 is BO7 either, right? Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need!
Needs more smilies.
And yes I’m well aware, as I should have made clear by referring to the finals I am referring to Bo7s against Rogue and Dark.
Protoss and getting dumpstered in big PvZ finals is fast turning into an iconic combination.
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On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 03:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need! Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL! Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special). Are you even fucking reading the thread? Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals. IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals. If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals "But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing. Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included) Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1) Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM) Serral - 4, 2 (0) Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA Clem - 3, 2 (0) Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA Maru - 3, 1 (0) Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL) Zoun - 2, 0 (0) Zest - 2, 0 (0) Cure - 1, 1 (GSL) Dark - 1, 1 (GSL) Solar - 1, 0 (0) Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals. Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough. Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well. As it seems valid for 2021. AND NO ONE REPLIED TO THIS POST IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. You whiners are a fucking joke.
I did actually. Stats of top 5 per race + offer of bet for next tournaments.
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On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 03:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need! Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL! Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special). Are you even fucking reading the thread? Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals. IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals. If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals "But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing. Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included) Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1) Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM) Serral - 4, 2 (0) Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA Clem - 3, 2 (0) Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA Maru - 3, 1 (0) Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL) Zoun - 2, 0 (0) Zest - 2, 0 (0) Cure - 1, 1 (GSL) Dark - 1, 1 (GSL) Solar - 1, 0 (0) Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals. Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough. Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well. As it seems valid for 2021. AND NO ONE REPLIED TO THIS POST IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. You whiners are a fucking joke.
Ah, its alway fun to see someone whining and crying about other not reading the thread and then obviously have not comprehended or not read the thread. Funny. Tragic, but funny.
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On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 03:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need! Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL! Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special). Are you even fucking reading the thread?
I am. Did you have an issue you wanted to bring up?
On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals. IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals. If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals "But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing. Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included) Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1) Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM) Serral - 4, 2 (0) Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA Clem - 3, 2 (0) Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA Maru - 3, 1 (0) Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL) Zoun - 2, 0 (0) Zest - 2, 0 (0) Cure - 1, 1 (GSL) Dark - 1, 1 (GSL) Solar - 1, 0 (0) Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals. Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough. Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well. As it seems valid for 2021. AND NO ONE REPLIED TO THIS POST IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. You whiners are a fucking joke.
Thank you for your non-whiny, meaningful response, not-a-fucking-joke person.
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Northern Ireland25282 Posts
As annoying as the ‘just play like Maru’ meme could be at times, there was at least a grain of truth and visible evidence in it.
I don’t think one player having to hard carry is necessarily reflective of a healthy game at all, but they at least provide tangible evidence that certain things are possible.
Protoss seem to lack a ‘just play like x’ equivalent, people may have different ideas as to why that is.
I don’t think balance is all that off, but small margins. For the big, big tournies I think much of the discrepancy is the chances of avoiding Bo7s in PvZ get quite slim.
Some Aligulac whiz probably has numbers to prove me categorically wrong but Protoss seem to do fine in the matchup up to Bo5s, and get routinely stomped in Bo7s
Last Code S not so much, Trap and Zest really flubbed their lines against Cure, not to take away from his performance.
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On December 11 2021 04:51 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:On December 11 2021 03:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need! Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL! Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special). Are you even fucking reading the thread? I am. Did you have an issue you wanted to bring up? Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals. IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals. If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals "But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing. Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included) Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1) Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM) Serral - 4, 2 (0) Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA Clem - 3, 2 (0) Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA Maru - 3, 1 (0) Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL) Zoun - 2, 0 (0) Zest - 2, 0 (0) Cure - 1, 1 (GSL) Dark - 1, 1 (GSL) Solar - 1, 0 (0) Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals. Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough. Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well. As it seems valid for 2021. AND NO ONE REPLIED TO THIS POST IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. You whiners are a fucking joke. Thank you for your non-whiny, meaningful response, not-a-fucking-joke person.
You still don't have a reply to the post I quoted. Thank you for your waste of our time.
To the mods, I apologize for my outburst. You do see this guy isn't replying to meaningful posts in the thread either. I am upset because our standard for discourse is circumvented with cheap weasel tricks.
There is no strawman narrative that Protoss are "simply not as good". To argue this existence is to acknowledge a small minority, if any. NO REASONABLE SC2 FAN ARGUES THIS. Again, another outburst.
Protoss are getting bum-rushed by Queen walks. Simply that.
But, Protoss are still well represented despite this agonizing plea that there is "simply no hope". Maru was called the "Terran hope" because it was only Maru. Yes, TY and Cure have followed up. But before that, there was no other hope for Terrans. If Maru got injured like Byun and so many other Terran pros, would you see this thread?
And I include foreign Terran's alopecia as a a form of injury.
No, we simply learned to count our blessings. So understand why I have no sympathy for those who cry about a lack of hope when they get a slightest hint that their race can be struggling. Welcome to Terran. Welcome to SC2. Count your blessings in your HIGH REPRESENTATION IN ALL OTHER LEVELS OF PLAY, INCLUDING GRAND FINALS.
Sorry you won't have a fucking Gold medal with a million (exaggeration) silvers and bronzes.
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EPT
