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On December 11 2021 16:55 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 04:51 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:On December 11 2021 03:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right?  What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need! Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL! Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special). Are you even fucking reading the thread? I am. Did you have an issue you wanted to bring up? On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals. IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals. If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals "But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing. Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included) Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1) Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM) Serral - 4, 2 (0) Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA Clem - 3, 2 (0) Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA Maru - 3, 1 (0) Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL) Zoun - 2, 0 (0) Zest - 2, 0 (0) Cure - 1, 1 (GSL) Dark - 1, 1 (GSL) Solar - 1, 0 (0) Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals. Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough. Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well. As it seems valid for 2021. AND NO ONE REPLIED TO THIS POST IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. You whiners are a fucking joke. Thank you for your non-whiny, meaningful response, not-a-fucking-joke person. You still don't have a reply to the post I quoted. Thank you for your waste of our time. To the mods, I apologize for my outburst. You do see this guy isn't replying to meaningful posts in the thread either. I am upset because our standard for discourse is circumvented with cheap weasel tricks. There is no strawman narrative that Protoss are "simply not as good". To argue this existence is to acknowledge a small minority, if any. NO REASONABLE SC2 FAN ARGUES THIS. Again, another outburst. Protoss are getting bum-rushed by Queen walks. Simply that. But, Protoss are still well represented despite this agonizing plea that there is "simply no hope". Maru was called the "Terran hope" because it was only Maru. Yes, TY and Cure have followed up. But before that, there was no other hope for Terrans. If Maru got injured like Byun and so many other Terran pros, would you see this thread? And I include foreign Terran's alopecia as a a form of injury. No, we simply learned to count our blessings. So understand why I have no sympathy for those who cry about a lack of hope when they get a slightest hint that their race can be struggling. Welcome to Terran. Welcome to SC2. Count your blessings in your HIGH REPRESENTATION IN ALL OTHER LEVELS OF PLAY, INCLUDING GRAND FINALS. Sorry you won't have a fucking Gold medal with a million (exaggeration) silvers and bronzes.
Well, its its almost impressive that a person who seems to be utterly filled with frustration and rage, and who complains about people not reading the thread, obviously have missed the major part of what this thread consists of. Either you havent read the thread, or you havent understood the comments. Either way its almost comical.
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I haven´t read the whole thread, But I think there is definitely Hope for Protoss! I am not GM but looking at top PvT it seems ok. Harstem beating Maru in the TSL8 Qualifiers, and ShowTime going toe to toe with Maru in a macro game at the DH Winter finals is just two examples that come´s to my mind right now. Protoss can compete with the top terrans.
Looking at PvZ though it looks more volatile.The Queen(walk) seems very strong, and it's just insane how much you get for 150 minerals. Changing the Queen in some way would be good imo. Maybe change Transfuse to 75 Energy or lower the HP?
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Would u guys rather have 1 queen or 3 marines. Same cost (150 minerals). LOL
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On December 11 2021 16:55 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 04:51 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:On December 11 2021 03:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need! Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL! Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special). Are you even fucking reading the thread? I am. Did you have an issue you wanted to bring up? On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals. IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals. If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals "But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing. Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included) Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1) Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM) Serral - 4, 2 (0) Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA Clem - 3, 2 (0) Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA Maru - 3, 1 (0) Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL) Zoun - 2, 0 (0) Zest - 2, 0 (0) Cure - 1, 1 (GSL) Dark - 1, 1 (GSL) Solar - 1, 0 (0) Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals. Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough. Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well. As it seems valid for 2021. AND NO ONE REPLIED TO THIS POST IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. You whiners are a fucking joke. Thank you for your non-whiny, meaningful response, not-a-fucking-joke person. You still don't have a reply to the post I quoted. Thank you for your waste of our time. To the mods, I apologize for my outburst. You do see this guy isn't replying to meaningful posts in the thread either. I am upset because our standard for discourse is circumvented with cheap weasel tricks. There is no strawman narrative that Protoss are "simply not as good". To argue this existence is to acknowledge a small minority, if any. NO REASONABLE SC2 FAN ARGUES THIS. Again, another outburst. Protoss are getting bum-rushed by Queen walks. Simply that. But, Protoss are still well represented despite this agonizing plea that there is "simply no hope". Maru was called the "Terran hope" because it was only Maru. Yes, TY and Cure have followed up. But before that, there was no other hope for Terrans. If Maru got injured like Byun and so many other Terran pros, would you see this thread? And I include foreign Terran's alopecia as a a form of injury. No, we simply learned to count our blessings. So understand why I have no sympathy for those who cry about a lack of hope when they get a slightest hint that their race can be struggling. Welcome to Terran. Welcome to SC2. Count your blessings in your HIGH REPRESENTATION IN ALL OTHER LEVELS OF PLAY, INCLUDING GRAND FINALS. Sorry you won't have a fucking Gold medal with a million (exaggeration) silvers and bronzes.
Ty didn't follow up, he was winning premiers before Maru started dominating. He was there the whole time. Before Maru you also had Innovation, and Byun. Even Gumiho won a GSL in 2017. 2018 is literally the only year where Maru had to carry Terran. Trap is the only Protoss to have won in more than two. And mind you, that 2018 is what you Terran call your worst year. 2021, the year carried by Trap, is our best, and he's not even winning GSLs. Protoss is doing bad enough that I'd be ecstatic to have a bit of "Terran suffering". Get to "count my blessings" where those blessings are 4 GSLs. Our worst year was between August 2019 to December 2020 - where Protoss won nothing.
As for Protoss managing to lose at high levels, so what? If you think winning and losing are equivalent, then every matchup is perfectly balanced at 50% "participation rate". I don't. The race that wins is performing better than the race that doesn't win.
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I mean numbers don't lie, numbers have not lied since SC2 was launched in 2010.
The top Protoss players in the world are not stupid, they are crazy intelligent because that's the only way you win with Protoss, outsmarting your opponent followed by the sickest micro you ever seen to compensate for shitty units that can't do anything unless you micro the living shit out of them. All this so you can have worse macro and have casters and sc2 community make fun of you for it.
Then ask yourself why then do Protosses go for stupid risky all inn builds that are forced to do insane damage or kill almost every single game, especially vs zerg?
Because protoss race design and weak units ( for cost ) have forced them to add a super gimmick suprise strategy that will get them ahead somehow so they THEN can play a god damn macro game and have a chance.
Protoss winrates playing defensive at the highest level has never been successful. The only player to somewhat pull it of is Stats who is in my opinion the best player to ever touch SC2 but will never be recognized as such because Protoss is by design the most VOLATILE and UNFORGIVING RACE of them all.
If Protoss macro was legit Stats would be the GOAT of SC2, and Rain probably never would have gone to BW because he coulda won heaps of money on SC2 but he knew what some of us know and most of you refuse to see.
Protoss is absolute trash at high level and players like Trap and Showtime are paying dearly for it in tournament winnings. GZ on playing Zerg
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On December 11 2021 16:55 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2021 04:51 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:On December 11 2021 03:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 11 2021 02:40 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> Also Terran is fine in the TSL8 while Protoss is dead, right? What did I tell you! But Terrans still have the hero marine they need! Oh has Protoss sucked for five years? Well, Terran has not done well in this one tournament! It's been a full four weeks since Maru won Dreamhack Masters, two months since Cure won GSL! Not even getting into how many top Terrans got their losses in TvT in that tournament either. Maru and Cure both got knocked out of the upper bracket in TvT upsets, and along with Clem that makes every Terran to win a Premier in 2021 got put in the same corner of the lower bracket and had to knock each other out (along with Dream and Special). Are you even fucking reading the thread? I am. Did you have an issue you wanted to bring up? On December 11 2021 03:31 Pentarp wrote:On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals. IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals. If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals "But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing. Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included) Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1) Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM) Serral - 4, 2 (0) Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA Clem - 3, 2 (0) Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA Maru - 3, 1 (0) Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL) Zoun - 2, 0 (0) Zest - 2, 0 (0) Cure - 1, 1 (GSL) Dark - 1, 1 (GSL) Solar - 1, 0 (0) Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals. Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough. Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well. As it seems valid for 2021. AND NO ONE REPLIED TO THIS POST IN A MEANINGFUL WAY. You whiners are a fucking joke. Thank you for your non-whiny, meaningful response, not-a-fucking-joke person. You still don't have a reply to the post I quoted. Thank you for your waste of our time. To the mods, I apologize for my outburst. You do see this guy isn't replying to meaningful posts in the thread either. I am upset because our standard for discourse is circumvented with cheap weasel tricks. There is no strawman narrative that Protoss are "simply not as good". To argue this existence is to acknowledge a small minority, if any. NO REASONABLE SC2 FAN ARGUES THIS. Again, another outburst. Protoss are getting bum-rushed by Queen walks. Simply that. But, Protoss are still well represented despite this agonizing plea that there is "simply no hope". Maru was called the "Terran hope" because it was only Maru. Yes, TY and Cure have followed up. But before that, there was no other hope for Terrans. If Maru got injured like Byun and so many other Terran pros, would you see this thread? And I include foreign Terran's alopecia as a a form of injury. No, we simply learned to count our blessings. So understand why I have no sympathy for those who cry about a lack of hope when they get a slightest hint that their race can be struggling. Welcome to Terran. Welcome to SC2. Count your blessings in your HIGH REPRESENTATION IN ALL OTHER LEVELS OF PLAY, INCLUDING GRAND FINALS. Sorry you won't have a fucking Gold medal with a million (exaggeration) silvers and bronzes.
The post you said nobody replied to in a meaningful way was discussed some days later by the very person you lashed out against:
On December 08 2021 23:46 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2021 19:20 deacon.frost wrote:On December 08 2021 03:45 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On December 07 2021 19:17 darklycid wrote:On December 07 2021 19:14 deacon.frost wrote:On December 07 2021 17:24 kajtarp wrote:
I don't know. If we take last GSL Finals as example, Zest didn't lose because of his race. He had bad decisions, and bad unit control troughout the match. He could have won, but failed to execute his strategies. Or if we take Trap's final or semifinal losses, how many times did he lose because his race is underpowered and not simply because Maru/Rogue/Dark/Serral/Reynor was the better player that day? Many other have tried but failed. They just want to hear Protoss weak, Terran and Zerg stronk. I mean you can always say the other player just played better, let's take e.g. 2018 when terran outside of maru didn't do well i guess the other players just always played better  Note also that when people say "in 2018 outside of Maru Terran didn't do well" nobody jumps in to say "ACTUALLY Ty and Innovation got to the finals so Terran was doing fine" or "GSL S3 was TvT so even without Maru Terran still would have won" or "half of the players in S2 Round of 8 were Terrans so they're actually performing above average" and all that nonsense. And at least if you play like Maru you actually win. Try having to play like Trap. 2018 Premier tournaments: 9 zerg titles, 2 2nd places -> 11 zergs in the finals 4 Terran titles, 2 2nd places -> 6 terrans in the finals 2 Protoss titles ,10 2nd places -> 12 Protoss in the finals I wonder why people felt Terran was weak, when the finals representation was 11:6:12 (Z : T : P) 2021 Premier tournaments: 5 Protoss titles, 6 2nd places (+2/1 if NA) 6 Zerg titles, 6 2nd places (+1/2 if NA) 4 Terran titles, 4 2nd places 12:8:11 Z/T/P I wonder why I state that Terran is as bad if not in worse situation. No one's wondering why people felt Terran was weak in 2018, I'm wondering why people won't acknowledge Protoss is weak now. I noticed you didn't count the titles separately in your non Trap/Maru column. Didn't like what it showed? Incidentally, using only 2021 stats is also misrepresenting how long Protoss has sucked. 2019-2021 non foreigner only Premier tournaments: 8 Protoss titles 9 Terran titles 20 Zerg titles Pretty even, right? But that's entirely carried by Trap's monstrous early 2021 performance. So here's without that Trap/Maru carry factor (not even going to bother with Zerg, they've got a billion champions): 2 Protoss titles 5 Terran titles Trap represents 3/4 of all Protoss titles for the period, Maru not even half of Terran's. But you may consider this unfair, since I stopped just before 2018, Maru's obvious carry year. I did this because summer 2019 is how far back you have to go to include any not-Trap Protoss champions, but let's keep it going up to 2017, winter 2017 being the last time Protoss won an actual GSL, so that I don't unfairly misrepresent Maru's Terran dominance. 2017-2021 non foreigner only Premier tournaments: 14 Protoss titles 19 Terran titles 28 Zerg titles Without Trap/Maru 8 Protoss titles 11 Terran titles So even including Maru's best year, and two years where Trap won literally nothing, they come out mostly even carrying around 42% of their race's titles, and with Terran performing better on either end: Maru did better than Trap, and non-Maru Terran did better than non-Trap Protoss. I would certainly say that thanks to Trap's amazing performance, Protoss had a better year than Terran in 2021, but it's an outlier. Protoss has been consistently doing the worst for half of StarCraft II's existence. That's not having a bad year or individual variance among players. As you say, "Damn it".
It didn't quote the post you highlighted, but the content is overlapping.
"We have a Terran problem" got countered with "Protoss has been carried by Trap".
2017-2021, titles for Terrans 11, and titles for Protoss 8 (Maru and Trap excluded). Maru had 8 and Trap had 6 in that time period. Protss had fewer titles and Trap had a bigger percentage of Protoss titles than Maru had of Terran titles.
This statistic included the latest code S win by a Protoss. It did not, however, include 2nd places.
The post you quoted also discussed hypocrisy of not crying imbalance when soO was a repeat 2nd place. I can discuss that here. Big tournaments soO didn't get to the finals had Zerg winners. Life won, Solar won, and Dark won Starleagues. I think even soulkey won a few months before soO rose up. Why cry "Zerg is weak!" when Zerg is winning?
Regarding the Maru carry and being the hope of Terran:
Maru has been the Last Terran (TM) since PvProleague, when Maru was the only Terran in Code S ro16. The Blink era and 10 sight range on Mothership core, that is the start of "play like Maru". This was before LotV, years before 2018.
The old meme was that Maru only played well when other Terran players struggled, thus he either got knocked out early or was the Last Terran (TM).
Protoss has struggled for several years in a row. Terran has had bad times this year and long ago in the past. Recently ByuN won Blizzcon in 2016. That year had several Terran players doing well. The four horsemen started there. INno fell of a bit but TIME rose up as a real contender. GumiHo was playing mech vs Protoss and Bunny experimented with aggro builds. TY was nearly a dominating force that other Terran players could copy. There were several years of great Terran hope. There was such a long period of good Terran play that GumiHo and ByuN have manage to leave and come back from mandatory service. Dream has been great in team leagues, SpeCiaL has performed well in code S, Clem appeared, Big Gabe weekly is a thing. Terran has had hope for several years.
That both Terran and Protoss are struggling this year can be coincidence. Terrans have more represented champions and Protoss have, well, Trap.
The frustration you seem to have about Terran is likely similar to the reason for this thread to be started.
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Protoss winrates playing defensive at the highest level has never been successful. The only player to somewhat pull it of is Stats who is in my opinion the best player to ever touch SC2 but will never be recognized as such because Protoss is by design the most VOLATILE and UNFORGIVING RACE of them all.
This is absolute bullshit, FFE was a very strong and viable way to play for years and years. Turtle into deathball was pretty much the gold standard for a huge chunk of SC2's lifespan, just because those days are in the past doesn't mean they didn't happen.
I'm not disagreeing with the premise of this thread (even though some of you are blowing Protoss top level weakness quite out of proportion) but saying things that are blatantly false is just not going to help your case.
Protoss is absolute trash at high level and players like Trap and Showtime are paying dearly for it in tournament winnings. GZ on playing Zerg
Protoss is suffering against Zerg right now, but TvP looks pretty balanced, the whole race is trash because one match up is skewed at the highest level of play? See this is what I'm talking about, blowing things that there ARE kernels of truth out of proportion with dramatic, emotionally charged statements.
I'm not saying that the match up probably couldn't use a tweak like either a small QoL buff on Stalkers/Sentries or a slight nerf to the power of the Lurker, but come on man.
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
So is Protoss doing bad because their winrates are bad or because their number of championship finishes are lower then Zerg and Terran? Because I just watched Trap dominate Ragnarok 3 - 0 in Bo5 and it looked like Protoss still has plenty of ways to win outside of this, "Oh no I NEED to sit here and turtle to 200/200 Skytoss because Lurkers."
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On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/
The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018.
You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about.
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On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about.
I believe it, I already said that ZvP is Zerg favored and that Protoss could probably used a QoL adjustment vs. Zerg. I'm just saying, Protoss can and does still win against Zerg. You can more or less see the Protoss lag increase as Zerg figured out how to utilize the Lurker more efficiently over time. If you kept up and read these posts (which clearly you do) you'd know that I'm a huge advocate of Lurker nerfs even as a Zerg player myself.
I just watched Trap dismantle Ragnarok 3 - 0, obviously when Protoss is played superior they can and DO win. I'm nitpicking because people here are making it seem like it's an auto lose against Zerg at the highest level of play which I'm sorry that's just bullshit.
Is that not high level enough because it's not vs Serral or something?
Or does it not matter because it's not GSL finals?
"You obviously don't care about that"
I love SC2 and have watched it from day 1 all those years ago, stop making ridiculous generalizations lol obviously I do care or why would I be consistently posting here?
Edited for grammar and to tone it down a bit
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Well, I wouldn't say that Rag is "the highest level of play", he's #9 Zerg in the world right now, according to Aligulac. Whereas Trap is #3 Protoss right now behind MaxPax and ShoWTimE (and we know who the best of those three is...).
How can a #9 Zerg match affect the top 5 Aligulac stat post that you are quoting?
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On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about.
I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do.
Serral for example almost never loses to protoss and usually demolishes them, thats because if you play correctly protoss is pretty helpless.
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On December 12 2021 01:48 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I believe it, I already said that ZvP is Zerg favored and that Protoss could probably used a QoL adjustment vs. Zerg. I'm just saying, Protoss can and does still win against Zerg. You can more or less see the Protoss lag increase as Zerg figured out how to utilize the Lurker more efficiently over time. If you kept up and read these posts (which clearly you do) you'd know that I'm a huge advocate of Lurker nerfs even as a Zerg player myself. I just watched Trap dismantle Ragnarok 3 - 0, obviously when Protoss is played superior they can and DO win. I'm nitpicking because people here are making it seem like it's an auto lose against Zerg at the highest level of play which I'm sorry that's just bullshit. Is that not high level enough because it's not vs Serral or something? Or does it not matter because it's not GSL finals? "You obviously don't care about that" I love SC2 and have watched it from day 1 all those years ago, stop making ridiculous generalizations lol obviously I do care or why would I be consistently posting here? Edited for grammar and to tone it down a bit
We already know Toss can beat Zerg, the 7 or so tournaments Trap won prove this. The only stage where Protoss is struggling is bo7 finals of a GSL Code S or a World Championship specificially
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On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do.
There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that.
All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly.
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On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly.
Thats why observation, logic, and actual in game experience with the races at a high level are important instead of just being a pure data nerd. You hear that all the time there's not enough data to tell this, not enough data to claim that...
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On December 12 2021 02:42 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly. Thats why observation, logic, and actual in game experience with the races at a high level are important instead of just being a pure data nerd. You hear that all the time there's not enough data to tell this, not enough data to claim that...
There's no level of observation or logic that will allow you to answer this type of question, and if you've ever heard 80% of pros talk you know that in game experience increases your bias rather than the quality of your data.
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Northern Ireland25245 Posts
On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly.
This could be true, as you say I don’t think there’s enough data to say, intuition tends to fill in the gaps.
It seems unlikely, to me anyway. Different games don’t get me wrong, and doesn’t always translate but Stats and Classic especially were pretty damn good at BW. At least mechanically they should have the chops.
My personal opinion is they can’t extract as much mileage from that than folks playing the other races. Which isn’t necessarily bad if you can compensate with your additional skillsets and take advantage of other things.
I don’t personally think Serral would be a good Protoss player (at elite level, I’m sure his off race is still scary), even amongst the elite 4 Zerg players he’s the most cautious and the one who relies on good defensive reads and grinding people down in lategame.
Again I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing, people have different psyches and ways of playing games, indeed I think it’s actively a good thing. Some want safety, control and trusting in their ability to play the percentages, some want to mindgame, take big risks and get into a knife fight.
Again it’s mostly an eye test thing, specifically in PvZ and specifically in big tournaments when it gets to Bo7, the knife fighting trickster doesn’t quite have enough in the locker to overcome the stable macro play, especially when Zerg have had their own strong gambits to also play (nydus swarmhost at one stage, I guess Queenwalks are the current equivalent)
What I would posit is, who in the scene is a PvZ monster? Or has been for a while, even at a lower level?
While not rounded in the last few years, you get folks like DRG having a ZvT that’s really good, obviously Clem in TvZ but he’s been improving all-round.
Just a throwaway idea really but it did come to me that there isn’t really a scary Protoss Zerg specialist out there, which seems odd given I can think of matchup specialists for every other matchup/the dominant racial players just being excellent in all 3.
With Protoss it feels Trap and Zest are all round just very good and decent vZ.
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France12873 Posts
So who opens a sad marine thread to counter this elaborate troll thread after TSL8?
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On December 12 2021 03:30 Poopi wrote:So who opens a sad marine thread to counter this elaborate troll thread after TSL8?
Maru is younger than trap and can stay the hope for your race longer than him, there is your future
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Every thread where a terran ever talked has been a sad marine thread
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On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly.
It's impossible to definitely say it, but there's more than enough justification to believe it. Mostly, that's why I keep insisting on looking at the results throughout the entire LotV period. Even with the decreased competitiveness of the scene, it's unbelievable that such widespread and consistent underperformance would be attributed to individual quirks. People who claim this is because of the current lack of top Protoss are kinda ignoring that Protoss weren't winning much even when other top players were around.
Stats is probably the best performing Protoss of Legacy of the Void, but he hadn't won anything in two years by the time he went to the military. Classic went out on a high note, in that he won the two preceding Super Tournaments, Together, they won four Premier tournaments over the course of 2018-2019, which are also the only Premier tournaments Protoss won in those years, and would continue to be the only Premier tournaments Protoss would win until Trap's heroic surge.
The Legacy of the Void period is longer than both Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm combined. The consistent underperformance of Protoss across this entire period can hardly be attributed to individual performance, especially given that actual Protoss representation is not showing a corresponding decrease. People still play Protoss, they just don't win.
And the most damning evidence against this individual performance notion? Just before the six years of consistent Protoss underperformance was 2015 Heart of the Swarm. Look at those results. Innovation, Life, a few outliers and foreign tournaments and then just this massive wall of Protoss. Protoss dominated 2015, and then they all decided to just individually become incapable of winning tournaments again for personal reasons? Changing the game from Heart of the Swarm to Legacy of the Void turned Protoss from the winningest race to the losingest one, and if you want to believe that this is just a coincidence caused by a simultaneous, coincidentally timed changes in the individual top players, I cannot definitively say that it's impossible, but it's not credible.
On December 12 2021 03:30 Poopi wrote:So who opens a sad marine thread to counter this elaborate troll thread after TSL8?
Sad marine thread has existed since before 2008 and has been paid to cast GSL for the past eleven years.
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EPT
