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On December 03 2021 21:55 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2021 21:26 darklycid wrote:On December 03 2021 21:08 deacon.frost wrote:On December 03 2021 20:58 Zambrah wrote:
Are we really going to count NA though? Neeb winning NA isn't really indicative of anything because NA is a pretty low-skill region.
I think its telling that Protoss is the only race with all of one player that actually manages to win tournaments, Zerg and Terran each have at least three winning players. Counterpoing - Scarlett got recently a nice top4 placement in the Winter finals. As long as it is in the premier tournament category it has to be counted. Edit> ah, the 2nd part of the problem. Stats, Classic, Zest had some great results in the past. Then the army called and Zest started being even more random in being Zest. While the most of the Terran success lies on the back of Maru. IF you remove Maru from the equation you have the EU success of Clem(how often does he win the international tournaments?) and occassional Cure. The only race who has true several champions at this moment are Zergs. If you wanna argue for toss doing well counting NA is just weakening your arguments substantially, a region with 3 competitve players and 2 of them are protoss, protoss has to do well. Counting NA is not smth worthwhile for the discussion. Whut? Notice, that when I argue that Protoss does well I rarely mention Neeb. This is not what I am doing. What I am saying is that both Terran and Protoss are FUBAR and Zergs are much stronger. Terran has the worst numbers and everybody is crazy about Protoss, because fuck Terrans, right? They have Maru.
In the period where Trap has been the only Protoss to get wins, not just Maru, but also Cure and Ty have won tournaments. That's two more champions for the "carried by Maru" race, what are you talking about?
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On December 04 2021 04:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2021 21:55 deacon.frost wrote:On December 03 2021 21:26 darklycid wrote:On December 03 2021 21:08 deacon.frost wrote:On December 03 2021 20:58 Zambrah wrote:
Are we really going to count NA though? Neeb winning NA isn't really indicative of anything because NA is a pretty low-skill region.
I think its telling that Protoss is the only race with all of one player that actually manages to win tournaments, Zerg and Terran each have at least three winning players. Counterpoing - Scarlett got recently a nice top4 placement in the Winter finals. As long as it is in the premier tournament category it has to be counted. To clarify, Maru has been carrying the Terran banner for a very, very long time. TY and Cure are very recent compared to how long Maru has been carrying Terrans. Edit> ah, the 2nd part of the problem. Stats, Classic, Zest had some great results in the past. Then the army called and Zest started being even more random in being Zest. While the most of the Terran success lies on the back of Maru. IF you remove Maru from the equation you have the EU success of Clem(how often does he win the international tournaments?) and occassional Cure. The only race who has true several champions at this moment are Zergs. If you wanna argue for toss doing well counting NA is just weakening your arguments substantially, a region with 3 competitve players and 2 of them are protoss, protoss has to do well. Counting NA is not smth worthwhile for the discussion. Whut? Notice, that when I argue that Protoss does well I rarely mention Neeb. This is not what I am doing. What I am saying is that both Terran and Protoss are FUBAR and Zergs are much stronger. Terran has the worst numbers and everybody is crazy about Protoss, because fuck Terrans, right? They have Maru. In the period where Trap has been the only Protoss to get wins, not just Maru, but also Cure and Ty have won tournaments. That's two more champions for the "carried by Maru" race, what are you talking about?
Talking about a period that goes beyond where Trap was the Maru for your race. I presume.
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Imagine thinking that NA-only tournaments are relevant just because fan site liquipedia says it's "premier"
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On December 04 2021 16:46 Elantris wrote:
Imagine thinking that NA-only tournaments are relevant just because fan site liquipedia says it's "premier"
Kind of like Homestory Cups.
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On December 04 2021 20:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2021 16:46 Elantris wrote:
Imagine thinking that NA-only tournaments are relevant just because fan site liquipedia says it's "premier" Kind of like Homestory Cups.
I'd rate them way higher than NA tbh.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
Everybody be like - we want Protoss win a premier trophy. Look at NA. NOT THAT KIND OF PREMIER TROPHY. ST1 and 2? NOT THAT KIND OF PREMIER TROPHY.
Kinda reminds me spoiled children. I would want to see a different world champion than a zerg and hey, tough luck, huh?
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I dont see the problem with wanting the race to do good in the tournaments with the HIGHEST stakes and MOST viewers not just some 2nd tier tournaments.
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On December 04 2021 22:33 deacon.frost wrote:
Everybody be like - we want Protoss win a premier trophy. Look at NA. NOT THAT KIND OF PREMIER TROPHY. ST1 and 2? NOT THAT KIND OF PREMIER TROPHY.
Kinda reminds me spoiled children. I would want to see a different world champion than a zerg and hey, tough luck, huh?
Trap is carrying Protoss. Deal with it.
EDIT: Sorry, WAS carrying Protoss, noone is carrying Protoss right now.
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On December 04 2021 22:33 deacon.frost wrote:
Kinda reminds me spoiled children. I would want to see a different world champion than a zerg and hey, tough luck, huh?
You realize last time protoss won blizzcon in HotS?
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On December 04 2021 02:02 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss is not experiencing a balance issue and most of the Terran victories from the current years is on Maru, some TY, casually Cure and Clem in EU. Most of the protoss wins were done by players in the military or recently returned. That's the Protoss situation. yes, it's bad, because Classic, Stats and herO got interrupted by the military. Thus we got left with Trap, Zoun and Zest.
Edit> And you missed the point by a mile, that KOB2 is major and NA is premier. Deal with it or change categories. And read what I reply to. What are you saying there? What does King of Battles 2 having a stacked roster have to do with EU premier tournaments? Are you trying to say that EU is a low skill region and is invalid because that would be fucking stupid. Premiers are discussed because theyre considered the pinnacle of tournaments, what is your point exactly? "Change categories," you mean like listing the Major tournaments with respectable rosters? That doesn't make Protoss look good, Terran did better than Protoss in Majors and Premiers, lol. The only thing Protoss excels at is winning in the low-level regions like NA/TW/HK/Oceania, etc.
the point is that the liquipedia "premier" tournament categorization is incredibly arbitrary and it's questionable to refer to it when making balance claims.
Do you think DH NA is the pinnacle of tournaments and KOB2 is not?
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While you were watching the protoss hopes, Zoun and Maxpax, get "really unlucky" and lose to decent zergs and terrans in the early rounds of a loser bracket, I was watching this video about french politics (in french). Honestly it wasn't the most interesting thing I've ever watched, not sure I'd recommend, but at least it didn't make me angry or sad.
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The idea that maybe all pro protoss players just suck compared to z and t pros, is so dumb you can't even argue against it.
There are no stable protosses, because the race itself is unstable. This should really be obvious by now.
At this point it would be better to gimp the AoE options totally and boost the combat units in exchange. Also fuck forcefields.
Literally remove everything that can be a reason for keeping the core combat units weak. Protoss armies need to be able to trade cost efficiently in small numbers and have sufficient mobile army composition options.
There are lots of cool options to make protoss better if the AoE & FF is weakened:
+ Show Spoiler +Zealots could have more movement speed and maybe a lategame upgrade that turns charge into blink.
Archons just need to be faster and maybe have an upgrade for +1 range.
Immortals could build faster and be made cheaper again. And their barrier can prevent emp from draining their shields.
Stalkers can do more damage in exchange for less health. There can be a late game upgrade changing their damage type to full damage vs all making them useful lategame units vs zergling runbys and marine drops.
If stalkers get a smaller frame that will also make them more massable and give them higher damage output per space they cover (making them scale better with numbers) while making them weaker vs things like fungals and tank shots.
Adepts can have +1 base armor and have their light tag removed. (better vs lings/marine, hellion/bane). Health can be raised and shields reduced, this will make them even more tanky, emphasizing the armor raise and enduring emps better.
Sentries are mostly useless anyway but with a stronger guardian shield, cheaper hallucinations or just a much lower pricetag they could be ok. Example: no forcefield but half price and half supply cost -> good support unit.
Another good option: guardian shield blocks the emps shield reduction effect (energy may be drained any way).
Oracles could have their beam not be energy based but doing less (+light?) damage -> more consistent.
Tempests should be 3 supply, max 4 to make them useful lategame without vastly lowering your maxed out armies fighting ability.
Templars psi storm could do much much less damage but slow enemies under it's effect, and feedback range could be increased and/or it's damage nerf be reverted. Focus on feedback and support.
Disruptor nova should not do damage but instead disable all enemy abilities and possibly also attacks and could also reveal cloaked units, unburrow lurkers unsiege tanks etc. -> pure support. They can build a bit faster and be a bit cheaper (less minerals?). +1 Range might be good too or just faster nova speed. Numbers can always be tweaked to make them somewhat useful as a support.
Colossus should be single target beams with high +light damage. But they can probably also stay the same, they really don't seem much too strong in terms of AoE.
Void rays can stay the same but I would love to see the overcharge changed in two ways:
- it is powered by shield energy, it drains the shields and stops when no shields.
- it does not do +armor damage but increases overall damage and range (by 1 or two). They could become stationary when it's active or be slowed a bit more. With shield batteries they can be great on the defensive.
Okay I'll stop here. All I'm saying is that protoss is still pretty lame and it's time to remove that all or nothing AoE playstyle and open up more strategic options with smaller armies trading efficiently and non AoE based army compositions being viable.
The current protoss battle interaction can be summed up like this:
Does Protoss have sufficient AoE & manages to hit with the AoE (largely up to the opponents, protoss can not do much micro here) ? Yes -> protoss crushes. No -> protoss gets crushed.
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No I don't think so anymore. You can credit whatever reason you want for it (not enough truly top level tosses, the top tosses we have are inconsistent/slumping atm, balance) but especially once Zest goes to the military all Protoss hopes are *only* going to be in Trap.
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On December 05 2021 04:37 Freeborn wrote:The idea that maybe all pro protoss players just suck compared to z and t pros, is so dumb you can't even argue against it. There are no stable protosses, because the race itself is unstable. This should really be obvious by now. At this point it would be better to gimp the AoE options totally and boost the combat units in exchange. Also fuck forcefields. Literally remove everything that can be a reason for keeping the core combat units weak. Protoss armies need to be able to trade cost efficiently in small numbers and have sufficient mobile army composition options. There are lots of cool options to make protoss better if the AoE & FF is weakened: + Show Spoiler +Zealots could have more movement speed and maybe a lategame upgrade that turns charge into blink.
Archons just need to be faster and maybe have an upgrade for +1 range.
Immortals could build faster and be made cheaper again. And their barrier can prevent emp from draining their shields.
Stalkers can do more damage in exchange for less health. There can be a late game upgrade changing their damage type to full damage vs all making them useful lategame units vs zergling runbys and marine drops.
If stalkers get a smaller frame that will also make them more massable and give them higher damage output per space they cover (making them scale better with numbers) while making them weaker vs things like fungals and tank shots.
Adepts can have +1 base armor and have their light tag removed. (better vs lings/marine, hellion/bane). Health can be raised and shields reduced, this will make them even more tanky, emphasizing the armor raise and enduring emps better.
Sentries are mostly useless anyway but with a stronger guardian shield, cheaper hallucinations or just a much lower pricetag they could be ok. Example: no forcefield but half price and half supply cost -> good support unit.
Another good option: guardian shield blocks the emps shield reduction effect (energy may be drained any way).
Oracles could have their beam not be energy based but doing less (+light?) damage -> more consistent.
Tempests should be 3 supply, max 4 to make them useful lategame without vastly lowering your maxed out armies fighting ability.
Templars psi storm could do much much less damage but slow enemies under it's effect, and feedback range could be increased and/or it's damage nerf be reverted. Focus on feedback and support.
Disruptor nova should not do damage but instead disable all enemy abilities and possibly also attacks and could also reveal cloaked units, unburrow lurkers unsiege tanks etc. -> pure support. They can build a bit faster and be a bit cheaper (less minerals?). +1 Range might be good too or just faster nova speed. Numbers can always be tweaked to make them somewhat useful as a support.
Colossus should be single target beams with high +light damage. But they can probably also stay the same, they really don't seem much too strong in terms of AoE.
Void rays can stay the same but I would love to see the overcharge changed in two ways:
- it is powered by shield energy, it drains the shields and stops when no shields.
- it does not do +armor damage but increases overall damage and range (by 1 or two). They could become stationary when it's active or be slowed a bit more. With shield batteries they can be great on the defensive.
The current protoss battle interaction can be summed up like this:
Does Protoss have sufficient AoE & manages to hit with the AoE (largely up to the opponents, protoss can not do much micro here) ? Yes -> protoss crushes. No -> protoss gets crushed.
i strongly strongly hate this idea as a protoss fan. The whole point of protoss is that their units SHOULD have the worst dps in exchange for tankiness, and very powerful spellcasters / aoe that make up for them. This has been true since brood war.
I think pvt is completely balanced: there is basically no reason to doubt this. Trap just has been off form while Maru has been surging.
Pvz is currently frustrating in that it's a high variance match up with both sides going for sneak moves or else ending in a stale drawn out lategame that favors zerg (only with Serral, Dark imo).
i'd love to see a nerf to lurkers in exchange for a nerf to void rays, thus incentivizing ground vs ground late game.
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This is not what variance means fwiw 
Serral isn't 34-2 in series since july in a match-up that has high variance
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Serral is dodging top Protoss pros from NA premier league, that's why!
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Protoss hasn't had hope for a looooooong time
It's just Trap was God like and holding the race on his back.
Now he's reverted. No. No there is no hope,
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Ok, so to wrap this all up.
all talk about change is irrelevant, because there will not be any change.
Toss as a race seems to have been doomed from the start. It can be ridiculously strong during some periods, but if that is the case the nerf is nearby (zerg do NOT have this problem). And as a race, when all is executed perfectly it LOOKs ridiculous, alongside with all the cheesy aspect. So it is a race everyone loves to hate. And looking through the comments, a general remark is the fact that toss suffers from the fact the it HAS (yeah yeah Has is cheesy ahhahaha) to be cheesy and is very rigid in its core, so when it comes to the best of 7. Toss is fucked, as it requires SLIGHTLY more to win. But in a b03... ey! Then it might be a different story.
To talk about toss players as a whole for many years to be choking is nonsens. If it was during a year.... yeah. It is relevant in that case. But considering that it seems slightly less to choke because of the significance of a small error, it can also be understandable that players make a snowballing mistake for P (yes yes, this is a fact for all races, but it for SURE seems like toss can evaporate more easily in more situation than T and Z).
So.
No, there is no (almost no) hope when it comes to winners in big tourneys in the more competitive regions.
Yes, there is some hope, toss is not completely extinct when it comes to squeezing through some player to top 4.
But then again.
No, there is no hope. A fair amount of the best Toss will, and have been, recruited to the army. Apart from Maxpax, who, so far, is not close to be a winner in bigger tourneys, no new toss has emerged.
Toss has Trap, he might reach far again in the future, maybe, if he has the motivation. Creator has shown some good performances, but he is (as is often the case) just missing the mark (so close to beating Dark recently for example)
It is what is is now. A few toss fans will stop watching, or watching and consider a top 4 a victory.
Lets go Frost Giants!
Nothing more to be said in this thread. But interesting to see the discussions.
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On December 05 2021 02:28 Elantris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2021 22:33 deacon.frost wrote:
Kinda reminds me spoiled children. I would want to see a different world champion than a zerg and hey, tough luck, huh? You realize last time protoss won blizzcon in HotS?
Blizzcon doesn't exist anymore. Protoss was in the finals of IEM(Zest) and GSL twice (Zest and Trap) this year alone. Yeah they did not win, but its not like those finals could have gone differently and this entire debate would be meaningless. Lately a couple tournaments have been bad for protoss, but its not like they do not have representation.
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EPT
