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France13012 Posts
On December 01 2021 02:58 Elantris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2021 00:06 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 30 2021 23:01 Elantris wrote:
I see I see here we've again got a classic "best players just happened to not choose protoss". Somehow this logic never worked in favor of protoss when they managed to win one or two tournaments, always leading to toss nerfs. Name me 1 foreign Protoss player who can beat Serral in a BO5 lol In a balanced game Showtime would have been on par with Clem, Serral and Reynor for years already but we are in a different timeline.
Clem would have been on par with Reynor in 2019 as well, but he was not. ShowTimE is far older than Clem/Reynor ; the better comparison would probably be MaxPax but he is younger than Clem/Reynor and not yet at "peak" age which is probably between 19-24. And ShoWTimE was better than Reynor/Clem for a looong time (friendly reminder that even though these two are young, they are playing since a super long time)
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On November 30 2021 02:06 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2021 00:17 Nebuchad wrote:On November 29 2021 23:52 highsis wrote:On November 29 2021 01:38 Nebuchad wrote:On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote:
For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16.
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. It's an unreasonable request, if the top protoss just happen to be worse than the top zergs and top terrans you don't get to demand that they win an equal amount of representation, that would be silly. I think this whole "protoss players suck" argument is a baseless BS. Buff protoss and I will start saying Terran & Zerg players suck and it's not not their race in the exactly same logic. If that BS justify protoss' current state, might as well buff protoss so I can sprout the same rhetoric of how untalented Z&T players are and they need to work harder while protoss comfortably wins tournaments. I was being sarcastic. Ok then you don't think it's the case; that doesn't really matter to me. It's a possibility, so we can't exclude it when talking about the situation. Except it's not really a possibility. If you look at mid to high level there's, if anything, a disproportionately high number of Protoss players in basically every scene except EU. Even then, look at those endless round robins for the regionals—tons of Protoss. But none of them can get anything done, and that seems to be the case over all, even in refine with strong pros. Just saying "oh, they're all just bad" is, beyond being more than a little insulting, not something that lines up with the evidence. Since they have more pro and semi pro players, they have more chances to get strong players, and they indeed have had a ton of strong players. Even just in the past couple years you've got Trap, Stats, Zest, Parting, Classic, herO, Zoun, etc. Players who can win series against the best in the world, repeatedly. They're also world class. It's just that the closest one to really getting the results you'd expect from his calibre is Trap and even he gets called the king of tier 2 because he can't seem to win a Code S or Global Finals. There are a lot of reasons this might be. But if you want to argue that this is because Trap and every other Protoss is secretly bad, it's on you to prove that. It's not something suggested by any evidence though, as there's more Protoss playing than the other races and the best ones have proved themselves repeatedly.
Indeed. The most logical conclusion drawn from this and how protoss are performing well at GM and low to mid tier pro scene must be "Protoss is a race that is stronger in a mid to low pro levels(and top amateur levels) but weaker at the top levels," not "protoss players are not as good as Z or T players." If the trend has been there for years and you don't see it, you are biased, period.
And I think something should be done at the top levels so tier 1 tourneys can be divided more evenly while minimizing its impact in lower levels. Alienating potentially 1/3 of the viewer base(especially those who only watch the scene) doesn't seem like a bright idea and I'm very frustrated as a protoss fan for the race not winning anything significant for 4 years and people think it's still fine.
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If you want proof at how bad protoss is just look at the forced gimmick builds they have to do, or the insane gambles they do to be able to compete with the very best players in SC2, its completely unacceptable. You must constantly reinvent the protoss playstyle because the moment you don't the top players will read your like a open book and you can't win because by default you are at disadvantage.
Protoss is insanely predictable.
It's okay that Zerg can even have kinda sloppy defense vs Protoss and lose large amounts of drones but still be in a playable position ?
While if you flip the coin if Protoss takes even the slightest damage the comeback seems almost impossible?
As an example, I just watch a PVT in the most recent super tournament, Cure loses 11 SCV in the early game vs Trap and the CASTERS DO NOT EVEN GIVE IT A MENTION, like yeah he just lost 11 SCV but its no big deal right?
Turn it on its head, Terran suicides units to trade for 11 probe kills that early in the game THE GAME IS OVER.
The funny part? Defending it is easier for TERRAN, and Terran can do the same damage Protoss did without even having to trade large amounts of army just send in a few lucky hellions or WM and its G FUCKING G NEXT GAME.
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On December 01 2021 02:58 Elantris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2021 00:06 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 30 2021 23:01 Elantris wrote:
I see I see here we've again got a classic "best players just happened to not choose protoss". Somehow this logic never worked in favor of protoss when they managed to win one or two tournaments, always leading to toss nerfs. Name me 1 foreign Protoss player who can beat Serral in a BO5 lol In a balanced game Showtime would have been on par with Clem, Serral and Reynor for years already but we are in a different timeline.
Complete nonsense, Aligulac has (as of November) TvZ at 54 % and PvZ at 54.7%, and PvT at 46.5%, a bit rough on that front.
 Premier Tournaments
Despite Protoss's recent struggles against Terran, their win rates in tournaments this year seems just fine.
P = 7 first place and 7 second place
Z = 7 first place and 7 second place
T = 4 first place and 3 second place
Honestly, how bad is balance for Protoss really? If Protoss took 1st place in just 2 more premier tournaments they would be winning a solid 50% of the time with Terran by far struggling the most.
Edited for redundancy removal
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Imagine thinking that pvz isn't incredibly zerg favored at relevant pro level.
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On November 29 2021 01:55 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2021 04:35 Vision_ wrote:
[...]I proposed [...] to remove the tag armor. In this way, Stalkers become good against many more expensive units as Immortal, Void Ray, Marauder, Siege Tank, Viking (in Fighter Mode), Ultralisk, Spine Crawler and Lurkers.
Two issues with this list: 1. Fighter mode Vikings only hit air units. Stalkers are not air units. Assault mode Vikings are the ones that can hit Stalkers, but they do not have a bonus vs armored. They have bonus vs mechanical. 2. Ultralisks have no bonus damage. They deal a flat 35 to everything. So neither Vikings nor Ultralisks would be affected by removing the armored tag from Stalkers. Well, technically, in team games a Phoenix can lift up a Stalker for a Viking to hit in Fighter mode. That way the armored tag matters.
Vikings is the only one unit with a mechanical bonus. Blizzard probably decided to buff vikings without affecting Zerg, Indeed Roachs DPS would have been very very low against Vikings, for the same supply cost ( 2.5 factor = insanity )
I desinstalled my video card and my main fan since a long time and i don t want to make tests again.
Some dps stats without tag armored :
Immortal -10%
Void Ray -38%
Marauder -50%
Siege Tank -40%
Viking (IF bonus against armored) -40%
Spine Crawler -33%
Lurkers -33%
In the case of a removal of his armor tag, only marauders worry me in perspective of an overall balance (Stalkers DPS is tweaked, not even sure you have to give them a bonus against light because of their flat damage would be increased a little bit / enought / in return of remove their bonus against armored).
It could be hard for tanks too, but after that it s possible to up their fire rate in order to balance their damage against light armored units and heavy armored units (which have slower fire-rate) or tweak a little bit their health points.
In a design perspective, it helps players in micro-blinking, because stalkers would gain a lot of sustain
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On December 01 2021 16:33 Elantris wrote:
Imagine thinking that pvz isn't incredibly zerg favored at relevant pro level.
I know I'm arguing against this notion with you, but fwiw, just because I disagree that top level tournaments are unwinnable for Protoss doesn't mean that I and I'm sure a reasonable part of the community don't disagree that Protoss is the weakest race in general at the top level of play, and could probably use a few quality of life buffs to keep up with power creep.
Honestly I think that Stalkers, Sentries AND Adepts could use scaling buffs at the bare minimum, if not outright stat and/or damage changes. I really think if Gateway units started a wee bit stronger and scaled a bit better into the mid game that Protoss would both look and play profoundly different.
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On December 02 2021 00:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I really think if Gateway units started a wee bit stronger and scaled a bit better into the mid game that Protoss would both look and play profoundly different.
We had that but terrans were too salty that protoss can succesfully play with tier 1 units too just like them so we got forge upgrades nerfs, unspeakably huge emp buff and eventually dps nerf of zealot. The last one was truly crazy but starcraft people hate toss too much. Just think about the idea of nerfing damage output of marine or zergling? This would never go through.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
Well, the issue is and always will be, that stronger gateway units mean stronger warp ins and proxies. And because the maps are big and 1 probe can proxy 5 things while Terran needs 5 SCVs, it got reverted/nerfed.
The issue basically is that even if you introduce upgrades, we still get to the issue of good ol' +1 chargelot all in(e.g.).
Long story short, the issue of Protoss is mostly the design of Protoss and the stubborness of Blizzard to change warpgate.
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On December 02 2021 00:50 deacon.frost wrote:
Well, the issue is and always will be, that stronger gateway units mean stronger warp ins and proxies. And because the maps are big and 1 probe can proxy 5 things while Terran needs 5 SCVs, it got reverted/nerfed.
That's not true because before emp buff main terran issue was 2/2 midgame timings with gateway army.
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i can't help to think about a way to buff gateway via twilight
in a way that upgrades would synergize,
a late game ground toss would require to research all 3 twilight upgrades, and each upgrade would greatly affect all basic gateway units
for example
- blink would add some extra (10) hp to zealot and adept
- charge would reduce blink ability cooldown (7->5s) and give higher vision radius for adept shade
- talons would decrease attack cooldown of stalker and zealot as well (by ~5%)
blink would serve as the defense, charge as the trick, talons as the attack upgrade for the other units.
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I think at this point (no real dev team behind sc2) it would be really difficult to buff protoss. I would try, to nerf individual units, just to affect one matchup. Like, i would nerf ghost's EMP against protoss shield. I think one of the main problem with PvT at pro level is the strenght of ghost's EMP. A couple of ghost EMP can take basically half of the protoss health.. EMP would deal half shield "damage", and it would not affect ZvT at all.
However it would not solve my problem with ZvP... Such a boring meta right now.
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On December 02 2021 00:38 Elantris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 00:09 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I really think if Gateway units started a wee bit stronger and scaled a bit better into the mid game that Protoss would both look and play profoundly different.
We had that but terrans were too salty that protoss can succesfully play with tier 1 units too just like them so we got forge upgrades nerfs, unspeakably huge emp buff and eventually dps nerf of zealot. The last one was truly crazy but starcraft people hate toss too much. Just think about the idea of nerfing damage output of marine or zergling? This would never go through.
This is a weird take Terrans weren't salty about gateway units being good out of principle lol. Protoss had a tempo advantage the entire game because early game their units beat T's until Stim/Medivacs, and P was getting a much earlier 3rd than Terran could. Not to mention the blink meta (Heavy Rain etc.) and other times that matchup was terrible.
The problem is, at least imo, buffing Protoss to deal with Zerg while not making TvP a terrible matchup for Terrans. I feel like Toss could use some more tools to be aggressive vs Zerg like revert the WP changes or the upgrade time changes. Or Toss needs a better way to break Lurkers.
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Maybe slightly buffing gateway units and making warp gate require a twilight council would be a simple and effective solution. Probably need something to encourage more ground armies against Zerg late game, though.
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What I want to know is, who are the best Protoss players in the world anymore?
Trap is the only one that is a clear answer since Zest is slumping so bad right now and isn't he leaving to the military soon too? Parting would have been a clear answer too, but as everyone should know by now he too is leaving to do his military service.
So who else other than Trap is an elite Protoss? None of the Protoss from Europe have EVER demonstrated that they are anywhere close to the level of the elite Zergs or Terran from that region.
Astrea is hands down the best Protoss in NA, but does anyone really think he's on the same level as a GSL Code S player or the elite of Europe?
Who exactly are the good Protoss players that SHOULD be winning tournaments right now, because I honestly only see Trap as a contender and he's a very inconsistent shaky player that has nerves that will fail him in big games. Who else is out there?
There are 5 players right now that keep winning everything. They are Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor. Is there any Protoss player out there that you can say with a straight face that SHOULD be beating these 5 but game balance is getting in the way? Seriously?
I just don't see it. I don't see a balance issue so much as I just see these 5 dominating everything.
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On December 02 2021 08:40 Vindicare605 wrote:
What I want to know is, who are the best Protoss players in the world anymore?
Trap is the only one that is a clear answer since Zest is slumping so bad right now and isn't he leaving to the military soon too? Parting would have been a clear answer too, but as everyone should know by now he too is leaving to do his military service.
So who else other than Trap is an elite Protoss? None of the Protoss from Europe have EVER demonstrated that they are anywhere close to the level of the elite Zergs or Terran from that region.
Astrea is hands down the best Protoss in NA, but does anyone really think he's on the same level as a GSL Code S player or the elite of Europe?
Who exactly are the good Protoss players that SHOULD be winning tournaments right now, because I honestly only see Trap as a contender and he's a very inconsistent shaky player that has nerves that will fail him in big games. Who else is out there?
There are 5 players right now that keep winning everything. They are Maru, Dark, Solar, Serral and Reynor. Is there any Protoss player out there that you can say with a straight face that SHOULD be beating these 5 but game balance is getting in the way? Seriously?
I just don't see it. I don't see a balance issue so much as I just see these 5 dominating everything.
I think that's a valid position, but from the perspective of this thread it doesn't change a ton. Whether it's because of balance or because there are no good players, we just aren't winning. And therefore there's not much hope.
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On December 01 2021 15:29 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2021 02:58 Elantris wrote:On December 01 2021 00:06 jpg06051992 wrote:On November 30 2021 23:01 Elantris wrote:
I see I see here we've again got a classic "best players just happened to not choose protoss". Somehow this logic never worked in favor of protoss when they managed to win one or two tournaments, always leading to toss nerfs. Name me 1 foreign Protoss player who can beat Serral in a BO5 lol In a balanced game Showtime would have been on par with Clem, Serral and Reynor for years already but we are in a different timeline. ... Despite Protoss's recent struggles against Terran, their win rates in tournaments this year seems just fine. P = 7 first place and 7 second place Z = 7 first place and 7 second place T = 4 first place and 3 second place ...
This.
Looks like Protoss fans got a small taste of what it feels like being a Terran fan. Yeah, the sky is falling. Okay.
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On December 02 2021 09:35 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 08:40 Vindicare605 wrote:
What I want to know is, who are the best Protoss players in the world anymore?
Trap is the only one that is a clear answer since Zest is slumping so bad right now and isn't he leaving to the military soon too? Parting would have been a clear answer too, but as everyone should know by now he too is leaving to do his military service.
So who else other than Trap is an elite Protoss? None of the Protoss from Europe have EVER demonstrated that they are anywhere close to the level of the elite Zergs or Terran from that region.
Astrea is hands down the best Protoss in NA, but does anyone really think he's on the same level as a GSL Code S player or the elite of Europe?
Who exactly are the good Protoss players that SHOULD be winning tournaments right now, because I honestly only see Trap as a contender and he's a very inconsistent shaky player that has nerves that will fail him in big games. Who else is out there?
There are 5 players right now that keep winning everything. They are Maru, Dark, Solar, Serral and Reynor. Is there any Protoss player out there that you can say with a straight face that SHOULD be beating these 5 but game balance is getting in the way? Seriously?
I just don't see it. I don't see a balance issue so much as I just see these 5 dominating everything. I think that's a valid position, but from the perspective of this thread it doesn't change a ton. Whether it's because of balance or because there are no good players, we just aren't winning. And therefore there's not much hope.
Balance is indeed playing a factor, but it's not as overwhelming as this thread is making it. I've already posted the results from this years premier tournaments and the numbers simply do not back up the theory that Protoss can't win at the highest level of play.
But, it's also definitely because of lack of talent. The Korean Protoss players are all retiring or doing military stuff and honestly, foreign Protoss players are just not as good as their Zerg and Terran counterparts. If Showtime was truly as good as Serral, the last time he beat him would have been alot more recent then last year or whenever he last defeated Serral, Serral is the superior player.
This all being said, I've said it once and I'll say it again...
We can probably start thinking about small quality of life adjustments on Gateway units, and/or a potential nerf to EMP radius and either a range or burrow speed reduction for Lurkers, or maybe a HP reduction so Storm deals with them better. It's probably time for Protoss to get a little bit of love, but ya know since ActiBlizzard is crashing and burning this is all wishful thinking.
Blizzard does not give a damn about this game and they haven't for years.
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On December 02 2021 10:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 09:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 02 2021 08:40 Vindicare605 wrote:
What I want to know is, who are the best Protoss players in the world anymore?
Trap is the only one that is a clear answer since Zest is slumping so bad right now and isn't he leaving to the military soon too? Parting would have been a clear answer too, but as everyone should know by now he too is leaving to do his military service.
So who else other than Trap is an elite Protoss? None of the Protoss from Europe have EVER demonstrated that they are anywhere close to the level of the elite Zergs or Terran from that region.
Astrea is hands down the best Protoss in NA, but does anyone really think he's on the same level as a GSL Code S player or the elite of Europe?
Who exactly are the good Protoss players that SHOULD be winning tournaments right now, because I honestly only see Trap as a contender and he's a very inconsistent shaky player that has nerves that will fail him in big games. Who else is out there?
There are 5 players right now that keep winning everything. They are Maru, Dark, Solar, Serral and Reynor. Is there any Protoss player out there that you can say with a straight face that SHOULD be beating these 5 but game balance is getting in the way? Seriously?
I just don't see it. I don't see a balance issue so much as I just see these 5 dominating everything. I think that's a valid position, but from the perspective of this thread it doesn't change a ton. Whether it's because of balance or because there are no good players, we just aren't winning. And therefore there's not much hope. Balance is indeed playing a factor, but it's not as overwhelming as this thread is making it. I've already posted the results from this years premier tournaments and the numbers simply do not back up the theory that Protoss can't win at the highest level of play. But, it's also definitely because of lack of talent. The Korean Protoss players are all retiring or doing military stuff and honestly, foreign Protoss players are just not as good as their Zerg and Terran counterparts. If Showtime was truly as good as Serral, the last time he beat him would have been alot more recent then last year or whenever he last defeated Serral, Serral is the superior player. This all being said, I've said it once and I'll say it again... We can probably start thinking about small quality of life adjustments on Gateway units, and/or a potential nerf to EMP radius and either a range or burrow speed reduction for Lurkers, or maybe a HP reduction so Storm deals with them better. It's probably time for Protoss to get a little bit of love, but ya know since ActiBlizzard is crashing and burning this is all wishful thinking. Blizzard does not give a damn about this game and they haven't for years.
Ah how convenient, a bunch of buffs to Protoss in PvT when the much bigger problem match up is PvZ where Protoss feel if they aren't turtling to Skytoss then they have no chance of winning.
But yea let's make TvP broken again, that will solve the issue.
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On December 02 2021 11:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2021 10:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 02 2021 09:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 02 2021 08:40 Vindicare605 wrote:
What I want to know is, who are the best Protoss players in the world anymore?
Trap is the only one that is a clear answer since Zest is slumping so bad right now and isn't he leaving to the military soon too? Parting would have been a clear answer too, but as everyone should know by now he too is leaving to do his military service.
So who else other than Trap is an elite Protoss? None of the Protoss from Europe have EVER demonstrated that they are anywhere close to the level of the elite Zergs or Terran from that region.
Astrea is hands down the best Protoss in NA, but does anyone really think he's on the same level as a GSL Code S player or the elite of Europe?
Who exactly are the good Protoss players that SHOULD be winning tournaments right now, because I honestly only see Trap as a contender and he's a very inconsistent shaky player that has nerves that will fail him in big games. Who else is out there?
There are 5 players right now that keep winning everything. They are Maru, Dark, Solar, Serral and Reynor. Is there any Protoss player out there that you can say with a straight face that SHOULD be beating these 5 but game balance is getting in the way? Seriously?
I just don't see it. I don't see a balance issue so much as I just see these 5 dominating everything. I think that's a valid position, but from the perspective of this thread it doesn't change a ton. Whether it's because of balance or because there are no good players, we just aren't winning. And therefore there's not much hope. Balance is indeed playing a factor, but it's not as overwhelming as this thread is making it. I've already posted the results from this years premier tournaments and the numbers simply do not back up the theory that Protoss can't win at the highest level of play. But, it's also definitely because of lack of talent. The Korean Protoss players are all retiring or doing military stuff and honestly, foreign Protoss players are just not as good as their Zerg and Terran counterparts. If Showtime was truly as good as Serral, the last time he beat him would have been alot more recent then last year or whenever he last defeated Serral, Serral is the superior player. This all being said, I've said it once and I'll say it again... We can probably start thinking about small quality of life adjustments on Gateway units, and/or a potential nerf to EMP radius and either a range or burrow speed reduction for Lurkers, or maybe a HP reduction so Storm deals with them better. It's probably time for Protoss to get a little bit of love, but ya know since ActiBlizzard is crashing and burning this is all wishful thinking. Blizzard does not give a damn about this game and they haven't for years. Ah how convenient, a bunch of buffs to Protoss in PvT when the much bigger problem match up is PvZ where Protoss feel if they aren't turtling to Skytoss then they have no chance of winning. But yea let's make TvP broken again, that will solve the issue.
I mean, it's not like I'm advocating for all of those ideas to be implemented simultaneously or anything. The Lurker has needed to be toned down for awhile, and there is a bunch of easy ways to nerf that unit imo
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EPT
