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Nebuchad
Switzerland12501 Posts
On November 22 2021 23:30 deacon.frost wrote: Nothing's gonna happen! Deal with it. Blizzard isn't touching this game. Also what a coincidence, Creator almost beats Dark and Trap goes into the RO8. You must have been so scared when Trap was down 0-2 ahahah | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12133 Posts
On November 22 2021 23:57 Nebuchad wrote: You must have been so scared when Trap was down 0-2 ahahah Actually I was expecting every Protoss to lose just to prove me wrong xD | ||
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Cold-Blood
United States200 Posts
to be fair one of those protoss is Zoun, a particularly skilled player at this time while the other is Classic which bodes well for his post military career and to also be fair the 2 zergs were Solar and DRG, both decent, but not associated to be the problem zergs i.e. dark, rogue, serral, reynor | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On November 25 2021 02:17 Cold-Blood wrote: Some more good news: in a group with 2 zergs and 2 protoss in NEXT, the 2 protoss advanced! to be fair one of those protoss is Zoun, a particularly skilled player at this time while the other is Classic which bodes well for his post military career and to also be fair the 2 zergs were Solar and DRG, both decent, but not associated to be the problem zergs i.e. dark, rogue, serral, reynor Yea it's nice to see Classic doing well, Creator played a series vs Dark recently as well and he looked pretty competitive, I'm glad we are getting some strong Protoss players back in the fold. Is reynor really a problem Zerg though? He's top tier for sure but idk if he's at the same level as Serral/Dark/Rogue. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 25 2021 02:56 jpg06051992 wrote: Yea it's nice to see Classic doing well, Creator played a series vs Dark recently as well and he looked pretty competitive, I'm glad we are getting some strong Protoss players back in the fold. Is reynor really a problem Zerg though? He's top tier for sure but idk if he's at the same level as Serral/Dark/Rogue. Well, just ask yourself who won the last Katowice. Reynor's shape is currently inferior to that of the other top Zerg but surely not worse than Rogue's at his lowest or Dark's mid 2020. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On November 25 2021 02:56 jpg06051992 wrote: Is reynor really a problem Zerg though? He's top tier for sure but idk if he's at the same level as Serral/Dark/Rogue. Reynor is one of the problem Zergs but yeah he is definitely not in the same category as the top 3. He won last Katowice, but we all know that was 70% luck. He is a strong Zerg for sure, but Dark, Rogue and Serral are quite a lot better | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 25 2021 04:40 MarianoSC2 wrote: Reynor is one of the problem Zergs but yeah he is definitely not in the same category as the top 3. He won last Katowice, but we all know that was 70% luck. He is a strong Zerg for sure, but Dark, Rogue and Serral are quite a lot better A Reynor in shape is as least as strong as they are; he totally deserved to win Katowice, not to mention he has been top tier for almost two years now. | ||
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Vision_
876 Posts
In previous post i talked about his design, which is great but lost his strenght during the addition of new expansion (HotS and LotV). Also said it s hard to balance this unit because of his ability, which give to stalkers (afterall) a snowballing utility, but that s all. In fact, it s ridiculous. A Medivac, which hasn t collision box (as flying unit) can heal 12.7 hp per second while a single stalker can only do 9.7 damage per second. So Medivacs are far better than stalkers and they can positionning itself above the bio-ball (which helps in term of army deplacement and allow Terrans to focus his power into a small area, thus Marines have a really small collision box). In this term, Protoss haven t two base units, they have Zealots and a snowballing unit (and adepts which doesn t scale so well). It s hard to find a new place for the stalkers, i only can imagine some tricks like remove completely the armor tag (neither light or armored !!! like DT) - Bonus against armored becomes a bonus against light (to help against Zerglings and Marines) - Push Blizzard way in decreasing a littlle bit his fire speed rate ex for 2xshots a zergling : 13 + 5ar >> 15 + 5lgt cooldown 1.34 >> 1.42 - Probably decrease Medivacs spell ability (which are clearly too strong in many cases) - Increase his production time (downside) | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On November 26 2021 05:52 Vision_ wrote: I want to talk again a little bit about stalkers. In previous post i talked about his design, which is great but lost his strenght during the addition of new expansion (HotS and LotV). Also said it s hard to balance this unit because of his ability, which give to stalkers (afterall) a snowballing utility, but that s all. In fact, it s ridiculous. A Medivac, which hasn t collision box (as flying unit) can heal 12.7 hp per second while a single stalker can only do 9.7 damage per second. So Medivacs are far better than stalkers and they can positionning itself above the bio-ball (which helps in term of army deplacement and allow Terrans to focus his power into a small area, thus Marines have a really small collision box). In this term, Protoss haven t two base units, they have Zealots and a snowballing unit (and adepts which doesn t scale so well). It s hard to find a new place for the stalkers, i only can imagine some tricks like remove completely the armor tag (neither light or armored !!! like DT) - Bonus against armored becomes a bonus against light (to help against Zerglings and Marines) - Push Blizzard way in decreasing a littlle bit his fire speed rate ex for 2xshots a zergling : 13 + 5ar >> 15 + 7lgt cooldown 1.34 >> 1.42 - Probably decrease Medivacs spell ability (which are clearly too strong in many cases) - Increase his production time (downside) I do think a Stalker buff would be a big boon, plus, it's a high skill cap micro friendly unit that is fun to watch, Gateway units as a whole could probably do a look over. The Zealot is strong but Adepts feel very weak outside the early game, also the Sentry feels a bit outdated with Corrosive Bile being in the game. It might not even be too unreasonable to consider slight buffs to both units, if Protoss was able to put a bit more pressure on Zerg in the early game, it would probably be healthy for the metagame. | ||
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Vision_
876 Posts
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VladSlymor
80 Posts
On November 26 2021 21:50 Vision_ wrote: Maybe also it s necessary to imagine Stalkers scaling damage with (+2) instead of only (+1). It s reasonnable as Stalkers are garbage against a bio ball. Notes, Roaches scale with (+2) damage (and Marauders scales with (+1)) I guess that could actually work nicely! As a T, I'm scared of any flat buff to the stalker - proxy gate or blink all-in look powerful enough to me. I'd rather see the power increase only in the later stages of the game. And upgrades scaling could be a simple way to achieve that. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On November 26 2021 05:58 jpg06051992 wrote: I do think a Stalker buff would be a big boon, plus, it's a high skill cap micro friendly unit that is fun to watch, Gateway units as a whole could probably do a look over. The Zealot is strong but Adepts feel very weak outside the early game, also the Sentry feels a bit outdated with Corrosive Bile being in the game. It might not even be too unreasonable to consider slight buffs to both units, if Protoss was able to put a bit more pressure on Zerg in the early game, it would probably be healthy for the metagame. I think it is a pretty bad idea, if they do this everyone will 1 base allin. Stalkers are cool and stuff but maybe massing 1 unit isant that "fun". They can use a late game upgrade but nothing early/mid. | ||
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Vision_
876 Posts
On November 27 2021 01:32 xsnac wrote: I think it is a pretty bad idea, if they do this everyone will 1 base allin. Stalkers are cool and stuff but maybe massing 1 unit isant that "fun". They can use a late game upgrade but nothing early/mid. If you wanna to make stalkers competitive for casual gamers or GM, there s only one way because in a strategy game, "all units have to be consistent between them" but the blink ability is so unique and particular that something else must be remove. Looking at stalkers, i would say their bonus damage against armored is a little bit overlapping with Zealots which are good against heavy armored units. So the question i m wondering isn t concerning their role but their place in the meta actually. I agree, There s a potential risk to see stalkers all-ins with this kind of buff (admitting you only modify the upgrade weapons to +2) that s why i proposed before to remove the tag armor. In this way, Stalkers become good against many more expensive units as Immortal, Void Ray, Marauder, Siege Tank, Viking (in Fighter Mode), Ultralisk, Spine Crawler and Lurkers. But my feeling would be to give them a bonus against light armor instead of armored in order to increase the emphasis of the unit, becoming good against bio (if medivacs are a nerf) and kind of bad against armored but with more sustain. Because Stalkers have such particular ability, you have to give them a pretty big disadvantage against one type of unit, Then if you look closer it s a direction to nerf the overall threat of air unit (which isn t a fun part of strategy as many of you consider like me that air units must be spells casters or versatile units like Mutalisks or Vikings) For sentries, i would say interactions with their force fields should remove seconds from their 11s duration. Ravagers Biles remove 'X' seconds, then it s a lot of changes because massive units have to remove 'X' seconds per hit instead of deal damage. | ||
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Harstem
Netherlands263 Posts
PvT lategame is actually unwinnable. Maru and myself are really close in skill and achievements, but sadly I can't even get close to him in lategame TvP. If I can't even beat someone like maru I don't think there is any hope left for protoss... IF you are a new player do not make the same mistake I made. Pick a race with a future and protoss doesn't have a future... | ||
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Vision_
876 Posts
On November 27 2021 04:36 Harstem wrote: After losing to maru today I got my worst fears confirmed. PvT lategame is actually unwinnable. Maru and myself are really close in skill and achievements, but sadly I can't even get close to him in lategame TvP. If I can't even beat someone like maru I don't think there is any hope left for protoss... IF you are a new player do not make the same mistake I made. Pick a race with a future and protoss doesn't have a future... I would advice you to create a tournament playing in fast-mode instead of very-fast in order to point out the problem of the protoss race. Then only a community project could save the game | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary415 Posts
On November 27 2021 04:36 Harstem wrote: After losing to maru today I got my worst fears confirmed. PvT lategame is actually unwinnable. Maru and myself are really close in skill and achievements, but sadly I can't even get close to him in lategame TvP. If I can't even beat someone like maru I don't think there is any hope left for protoss... IF you are a new player do not make the same mistake I made. Pick a race with a future and protoss doesn't have a future... o7 you are a fucking legend, my capitón! | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote: For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16. At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. So you want the game to die? Can you imagine what will happen to ladder if they buff protoss even more with no other changes? I know most ppl who watch this game dont play, but damn dude. More protoss buff, and GM will be 60% protoss or more. | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
On November 29 2021 00:40 Snakestyle11 wrote: So you want the game to die? Can you imagine what will happen to ladder if they buff protoss even more with no other changes? I know most ppl who watch this game dont play, but damn dude. More protoss buff, and GM will be 60% protoss or more. Not necessarily. I'm sure something like making mothership immune to a viper abduct can go a long way in the late protoss vs zerg as protoss is often less efficient in resources loss at the top levels; with zerg having easier defense, resources gathered and map control the result is rather skewed. I don't think it will affect amateur games too much as games don't drag that long in most cases. SC2 balance has never been focused on ladder, has it? Why should it be specifically balanced at GM? How about masters, diamond, gold, etc? Also at this point the pro scene is pretty much dead if you think 60% GM protoss is bad, IEM has 1 protoss out of 16 and unless protoss wins dreamhack last chance (protoss has been barrent with tier 1 victory for years) that's confirmed. | ||
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tigera6
3513 Posts
On November 29 2021 00:21 highsis wrote: For IEM Katowice we have 1 confirmed protoss, 6 terrans and 4 zergs. In top EPT points standings, TRAP is the only protss at top 15. We will likely end up with 1 protoss in the tournament out of 16. At this point I don't even care if protoss players suck balls and are untalened. Yeah, whatever you talents rhetoric arguers say. I just want more protoss representations at the top levels and protoss buffed to achieve it. I guess Zest, Parting and Zoun are not Protoss then? This is just a "weak" EPT year for the KR Protoss player pool because of military service. Stats and Zest and Parting are already or likely to be gone, while Classic and Hero are only back at the later half of the year and cant get enough points (yet) for IEM. | ||
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