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On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong.
I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!??
I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it.
Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments?
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On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments?
A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts.
Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance.
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On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance.
Spot on.
I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here.
I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem).
(I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.)
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On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance.
Yeah that's what I said, my issue is people who want to make it into a balance problem
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.)
What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve?
Out of the 3 Code S tournaments this year Protoss was in the 2 finals.
IEM Katowice - Protoss was in the finals.
If we count only these "top tier tournaments" - we had 4 of them, 3 zergs, 3 protosses and 2 terrans in the finals
"But what about BO7 and Protoss?!" - well, you see, GSL semis are BO7 so if they can get pass that, they're not so bad in BO7-ing.
Let's ignore that Trap actually really won some tournaments this year, he has what, 5 titles? Let's check this years premier tournaments (yes, NA included)
Trap - 7 appearances, 5 victories (0 Tier 1)
Reynor - 4, 2 (IEM)
Serral - 4, 2 (0)
Neeb - 3, 2 (0) and yes, all NA
Clem - 3, 2 (0)
Scarlett - 3, 1 (0) and yes, all NA
Maru - 3, 1 (0)
Rogue - 2, 1 (GSL)
Zoun - 2, 0 (0)
Zest - 2, 0 (0)
Cure - 1, 1 (GSL)
Dark - 1, 1 (GSL)
Solar - 1, 0 (0)
Totally per race
Protoss: 11, 5 with NA +3, 2
Zerg: 12, 6 (IEM, Code S, Code S) with NA +3, 1
Terran: 7, 4 (Code S)
I don't know, to me it seems we have a Terran problem. The least amount of victories in the premier tournaments, the least amount of presence in the finals. FFS with the NA they have half the finals.
Also out of 4 tier 1 tournaments(how you people here call it) 3 were taken by zergs, so to me it seems that Protoss is fine, Zergs too stronk and Terran not stronk enough.
Edit> Back, when I was tracking this since the "Patch Zerg era", I used to say that Protoss is the race of Kongs, the most finals, the worst w/r. Terrans are Yoda race - do or do not. You either win or don't bother to the finals at all. And Zergs take the most important titles while being good at winning elsewhere as well.
As it seems valid for 2021.
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On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve?
If you had read the thread you would have seen that we are way ahead of you. Since there's a decent likelihood that the problem can't be solved, my advice for people who enjoy protoss is to not watch a lot of SC2. Seems like a decent solution for our problem.
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France12904 Posts
On November 19 2021 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? If you had read the thread you would have seen that we are way ahead of you. Since there's a decent likelihood that the problem can't be solved, my advice for people who enjoy protoss is to not watch a lot of SC2. Seems like a decent solution for our problem.
Protoss is winning left and right so I hope people will keep watching if they enjoy protoss.
Bet Gemini is kinda happy this year since he is a big Trap fan
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 19 2021 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? If you had read the thread you would have seen that we are way ahead of you. Since there's a decent likelihood that the problem can't be solved, my advice for people who enjoy protoss is to not watch a lot of SC2. Seems like a decent solution for our problem.
Yeah, I don't get the thread. Out of 30 finalists of the premier tournament in the 2020 (NOT counting NA) we saw 5 Protoss victories coming from 11 times having a Protoss player in the finals. 7 with NA
If anyone should stop watching - it's Terrans. Out of 15 finals 4 victories and grand 7 appearances. What. A. Joy.
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On November 19 2021 21:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? If you had read the thread you would have seen that we are way ahead of you. Since there's a decent likelihood that the problem can't be solved, my advice for people who enjoy protoss is to not watch a lot of SC2. Seems like a decent solution for our problem. Yeah, I don't get the thread. Out of 30 finalists of the premier tournament in the 2020 (NOT counting NA) we saw 5 Protoss victories coming from 11 times having a Protoss player in the finals. 7 with NA If anyone should stop watching - it's Terrans. Out of 15 finals 4 victories and grand 7 appearances. What. A. Joy.
Can I interest you in a bet that terran will win more of the next few (let's say 5 or 10?) premier tournaments than protoss will?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 19 2021 21:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:41 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? If you had read the thread you would have seen that we are way ahead of you. Since there's a decent likelihood that the problem can't be solved, my advice for people who enjoy protoss is to not watch a lot of SC2. Seems like a decent solution for our problem. Yeah, I don't get the thread. Out of 30 finalists of the premier tournament in the 2020 (NOT counting NA) we saw 5 Protoss victories coming from 11 times having a Protoss player in the finals. 7 with NA If anyone should stop watching - it's Terrans. Out of 15 finals 4 victories and grand 7 appearances. What. A. Joy. Can I interest you in a bet that terran will win more of the next few (let's say 5 or 10?) premier tournaments than protoss will?
No, I don't bet. But if I would my bet would be
PvP finals of the ST
Zerg wins the IEM in a PvZ finals
The next Code S champion is Zerg and wins in a nonMirror finals, I'm inclining towards PvZ.
One of the TSL finalists will be Protoss while the victor will be either Zerg or Terran. My gut says Zerg.
All depends if Trap finds his lost mojo, or Classic harnesses the power of Protoss a little bit more. Actually if Classic gets really good I would bet on a Protoss victory in Code S. (if it happens after the IEM)
Edit> to answer your question. I would bet on Zerg > Protoss >= Terran titles. But I don't bet 
Edit 2> If Zest goes to the military soon enough then Zerg > Terran >= Protoss. While Trap can be good, he needs the help of others and it doesn't seem herO or Classic will be that top tier soon enough.
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France12904 Posts
On November 19 2021 21:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 18:16 RKC wrote:On November 19 2021 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 15:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 19 2021 06:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 04:07 Charoisaur wrote:On November 18 2021 10:03 RKC wrote:
The fact that Toss dominated HoTS and dropped off the cliff in LoTV simply proves the point that Toss players didn't just all slumped overnight.
Whether Terran and Zerg deserve their shot at glory by benefiting more from LoTV drastic design revamp doesn't detract from the fact that Toss as a whole has been left behind.
In such an assymmetrical game with volatile changes, it's more likely than not that abnormal statistical success rates is due to racial imbalances, rather than player skill.
Anyway, my concern is more about ensuring diversity in the game. SC2 and BW being reduced to a one or two race game would be less fun to watch. in 2016 and 2017 Toss was still doing fine with 3 Starleague victories. In 2018 Maru and Serral won everything and 2019 had undeniably atrocious balance. But from 2020 on the balance is fine imo, Toss won a lot of tier 2 events (Trap) and reached numerous finals in tier 1 events, despite a lot of their top players leaving for military (herO, Classic and now Stats) Really I don't get how someone can watch the tournaments these past 2 years and come to the conclusion: "yep, Protoss is unplayable garbage, no point watching this" !!?? Your issue is that you're trying to have a balance conversation so you need to defend your race, but again the people who are serious aren't talking about balance. It is super obvious to everyone, including you, that the best protoss players right now are the least likely to win a tournament against the best terrans and the best zergs, and this by a large margin. You can obtain that knowledge in any number of ways, you can watch tournaments, you can hear casters talking about the players, you can check statistical results of the best players of each race... This doesn't demonstrate that the game has to change in any way. You're taking a larger conversation and you're trying to fit it into your "don't nerf my race" agenda where it doesn't belong. I'm not the one who makes it into a balance discussion!!?? I try to understand the people thinking it's a balance problem, as I don't see it. Also you can stop your attempts trying to discredit me by claiming I'm biased, I don't even have a race, I'm playing random for the last 3-4 years already. Can we stop the unnecessary ad hominems and focus on the arguments? A bunch of people came into this thread to say that the best protoss players were weaker in skill than the best zergs and the best terrans. You had no issue with any of their posts. I said it could be that or it could be balance. You had issue with my posts. Some other people are convinced that it's balance. You had issue with their posts. Sure sounds like your issue is people who talk about balance. Spot on. I'm not sure what exactly is the cause of the problem. But the problem is there - Toss has been struggling to win top tier competitions in LoTV. Like you, I'm concerned about the diversity of the game. Balance is not the focus here. I'm also frustrated as you are why some people seem to be denying that there is actually a problem at all (or trying to shift the focus to some other problem). (I don't care about low level ladder stats, or lower tier competitions. That's not the problem - or may be a different problem altogether.) What kind of problem are we talking about? Was soO getting into finals and not winning a race problem? Balance problem? Are Protoss players who get to the finals and can't win them if their lives depend on it a problem we can solve? If you had read the thread you would have seen that we are way ahead of you. Since there's a decent likelihood that the problem can't be solved, my advice for people who enjoy protoss is to not watch a lot of SC2. Seems like a decent solution for our problem. Yeah, I don't get the thread. Out of 30 finalists of the premier tournament in the 2020 (NOT counting NA) we saw 5 Protoss victories coming from 11 times having a Protoss player in the finals. 7 with NA If anyone should stop watching - it's Terrans. Out of 15 finals 4 victories and grand 7 appearances. What. A. Joy.
Well protoss lose some finals and they complain hard enough to make a thread about hope. Meanwhile we had IEM without any terran in the ro8, and only one in the ro12, despite all top KR terrans participating. Thankfully Blizzard was still active with the game back then and patched things up quickly, but the contrast is hilarious.
 IEM Season XIII - Katowice
There is even Neeb in the ro8 :x. The equivalent would be having a ro8 without any protoss in but a terran like uThermal or Spirit in the top 8.
In 2021 though, the game has been relatively well balanced although the ZvP meta is quite horrible to watch as a spectator, and TvP is a bit too coin-flippy / BO oriented for most pros.
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Man I wish I lived in the reality that terran supporters see x)
(But of course I know they don't really see it)
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 19 2021 21:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Man I wish I lived in the reality that terran supporters see x)
(But of course I know they don't really see it)
Yeah, numbers are evil and it's better to not see them, right? Contradict the numbers =) and I didn't include NA to the totals for a reason 
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On November 19 2021 21:53 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Man I wish I lived in the reality that terran supporters see x)
(But of course I know they don't really see it) Yeah, numbers are evil and it's better to not see them, right? Contradict the numbers =) and I didn't include NA to the totals for a reason
The numbers aren't on your side, as has already been posted earlier in the thread. The top 5 protoss players have been performing worse than the top 5 best zergs and best terrans for every single period since march 2018. There hasn't been a single period in Legacy of the Void where the top 5 protoss were leading against the other two.
But again, you know that.
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France12904 Posts
On November 19 2021 21:56 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:53 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 21:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Man I wish I lived in the reality that terran supporters see x)
(But of course I know they don't really see it) Yeah, numbers are evil and it's better to not see them, right? Contradict the numbers =) and I didn't include NA to the totals for a reason The numbers aren't on your side, as has already been posted earlier in the thread. The top 5 protoss players have been performing worse than the top 5 best zergs and best terrans for every single period since march 2018. There hasn't been a single period in Legacy of the Void where the top 5 protoss were leading against the other two. But again, you know that.
You do realize that protoss players on aligulac got their overall rating diminished because of PvP, right?
http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=p&nats=all&sort=vp
Top 5 PvP players got between 2710 points and 3041 points, while top 5 ZvZ players got between 2905 and 3178 points (http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=z&nats=all&sort=vz) .
Top 5 TvT players have between 2871 and 3305 points (http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=t&nats=all&sort=vt).
Having your mirror with that much variance will lower your rating altogether, so of course they will seem to "lag" behind with such a criteria.
That's why overall prize money / race (it's limited to top 10 players of each race on liquipedia but that's still pretty accurate) is a far better indicator of the well being of the race. Indeed, the latest period of BIG imbalance (similar to broodlord infestor, with many analysts / casters / players / spectators agreeing on the thing) was zerg in 2019.
Wanna see how it was reflected in the earnings?
Winnings/2019
Zerg: 1.510.435$, Protoss: 982.290$, Terran: 868.249$. That's what imbalance looks like. That's also what most progamers care about (and prestige is usually correlated with the prize money of the tournament anyways, except in some odd cases like WESG). Do you think Rogue cares that Cure has a better aligulac rating than him? He won more prize money in 2021 (and even a GSL as well the same year). Same with Trap who has a lower aligulac rating than Bunny, winning "tier 2" events is still far better than what Bunny accomplished in 2021, and that's very obvious when looking at their earnings that year: 90k$ vs 33k$.
Winnings/2021
So if people still believe protoss is not doing well at the top level despite earning the most money so far in 2021, they are being delusional.
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On November 19 2021 22:10 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2021 21:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 19 2021 21:53 deacon.frost wrote:On November 19 2021 21:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Man I wish I lived in the reality that terran supporters see x)
(But of course I know they don't really see it) Yeah, numbers are evil and it's better to not see them, right? Contradict the numbers =) and I didn't include NA to the totals for a reason The numbers aren't on your side, as has already been posted earlier in the thread. The top 5 protoss players have been performing worse than the top 5 best zergs and best terrans for every single period since march 2018. There hasn't been a single period in Legacy of the Void where the top 5 protoss were leading against the other two. But again, you know that. You do realize that protoss players on aligulac got their overall rating diminished because of PvP, right? http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=p&nats=all&sort=vp Top 5 PvP players got between 2710 points and 3041 points, while top 5 ZvZ players got between 2905 and 3178 points (http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=z&nats=all&sort=vz) . Top 5 TvT players have between 2871 and 3305 points (http://aligulac.com/periods/307/?page=1&race=t&nats=all&sort=vt). Having your mirror with that much variance will lower your rating altogether, so of course they will seem to "lag" behind with such a criteria.
In that set 307 that you mention, the average TvP is at 3059. The average PvT is at 2927.6. The best PvT is at 3025, below the average TvP.
Average PvZ is at 2990. Zerg is a 3123.2.
The mirror matchups are at 3029.6 (TvT) 2845.2 (PvP) 3028.2 (ZvZ)
It's a difference of 183 for mirror, 131 for TvP and 133 for PvZ. 50 elo is definitely statistically significant, but not enough that it accounts for overall performance. Unless this set is an outlier? But I don't think you think it is.
The argument is also silly on its face. If PvP was the only factor in protoss underperforming vs the other races, it wouldn't suddenly not be an underperformance. The end result is the same: the best protoss perform less well.
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this is a funny thread to read bc it seems to go in continual circles, but at this point it seems like the basic data has been hashed over to the point that pretty much everyone agrees that (1) there's a real trend of top Protoss players not winning the biggest tournaments (imo the GSL title drought is the real story here and significant in itself, though it seems that something analogous may be starting to happen in the foreign scene), and (2) it's not a straightforward balance problem since Protoss still wins pretty big tournaments and keeps getting into the finals of the biggest tournaments also.
At that point the question becomes what other factors may be at play. IMO the argument that it's "just luck" seems pretty silly.
One the one hand, there's probably something to the argument that Protoss at the very highest levels is slightly more volatile by design. On the other hand, though, there are almost certainly more "subjective," psychological, social, etc factors having an effect.
I actually think it would be very interesting to study in more depth how certain personality traits correlate with playing different races. IIRC in the big BW match-fixing scandal there were 0 Protoss among the convicted match-fixers, which is pretty remarkable and always stuck with me. I think that's still true in SC2? The biggest Kongs in BW were also Protoss (in SC2 SoO kind of overshadows everyone, but there's still an argument to be made). In both games though you can pretty clearly think about different types of players with different types of personalities that are characteristically associated with playing particular races.
While a big part of the story of Protoss in the last few years is just Trap, it is becoming somewhat of a remarkable trend to see multiple Protoss continually lose GSL finals in a fairly similar way (playing in a more "nervous" way with uncharacteristic mistakes). It feels to me, after watching the scene for many years, that there is somewhat of a social, psychological imitative "Kongy" thing happening.
This isn't mutually exclusive with the thesis that Protoss at the highest levels is slightly more unforgiving of mistakes; in fact, the two arguably go together if the problem is top Protoss players playing "nervous."
If all that's true, though, the most likely answer is just a new Protoss champion coming to the fore who has a bit more killer instinct. Or because it's partly a social/psychological, thing, an existing top Protoss just winning one big tournament could make a big difference to the population at large.
IMO it's fun to have these sorts of storylines in SC2, even if as a Protoss I don't like this one that much. But we are the race (even in the lore!) of nobly defeated lost-causers, so it's okay.
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France12904 Posts
The most notable kongs are from the three races: MarineKing was the first kong, soO the second one (haha) yet the most prominent, and Trap is the latest. Stats has several 2nd place finishes but winning a SSL and a GSL prevent you for being a Kong. Zest also lost several GSL finals recently but he won 2 so not really a kong.
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On November 20 2021 00:49 Poopi wrote:
The most notable kongs are from the three races: MarineKing was the first kong, soO the second one (haha) yet the most prominent, and Trap is the latest. Stats has several 2nd place finishes but winning a SSL and a GSL prevent you for being a Kong. Zest also lost several GSL finals recently but he won 2 so not really a kong.
Trap is not a kong by any mean, even if you disregard online competitions he won three Super Tournaments.
Seven titles and eight second places is not that bad of a record; the problem, however, is that he failed hard in Code S.
The one he lost against Rogue was doomed by atrocious balance but when Trap lost the first time against Dark the matchup was even, probably he hadn't spiked yet; the second time was even worse, Trap's shape was decent and the matchup too.
Every successful Protoss player has transitioned to a kong in the last years, for various reasons.
Balance played a role in late 2019, Serral's and Maru's godlike forms in 2018 stopped them but after that it was down to unfortunate pairings or amazing displays of choking.
I am convinced that, for the level of play they were showing at the time they lost the finals, at the very least Trap and Zest should have won a Code S each and Stats an IEM Katowice trophy(still can't understand how he lost to soO).
It seems to me that Protoss never completely recovered from being capable of abusing Prisms and Chargelots, Skytoss looked like a dominant strategy in PvZ at a certain point but it was shown that at the highest level it can be countered efficiently.
It might be that the race struggles to be sufficiently adaptable to give its top players enough options to reliably win a bo7, I suspect we would see more Protoss victories in a bo5 format.
Is there hope for Protoss? Yes, MaxPax could follow Serral, Reynor and Clem's footsteps as he is already doing, Zoun could improve further or Afreeca could find a good mental coach for Trap so that he could eventually overcome the mental block he evidently has when he finds himself in Code S finals.
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To me personally it just ain't much fun to cheer for tosses rn as you never know in what shape they show up, sometimes you have these Super tournaments with 7/8 in ro8 then you have none in ro4.
Sometimes they play great and defeat the best players of other races then they look hopeless vs players you'd rate below em. Variance just feels bigger to me than for the top Terran/Zerg, also pvz and pvp aren't mus i really like to watch currently. Exception was when trap had his streak.
Edit: at the same time you get all of these morons who permanently complain about toss being op/easy with voids etc. Makes these discussions always funny when ppl discredit you all the time while toss ain't doing exceptionally well in tournaments and maybe also a reason these threads plop up more
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EPT
