EPTI tell you why. Because this absolutely irrelevant GM ladder distribution is last resort for toss haters.
The future of Protoss. Is there any hope? - Page 25
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Elantris
66 Posts
I tell you why. Because this absolutely irrelevant GM ladder distribution is last resort for toss haters. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
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Elantris
66 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 16 2021 00:46 Elantris wrote: Why would you even care about GM ladder population? This is a problem for a very small amount of people meanwhile protoss tournament perfomance problems affect all the viewers. I tell you why. Because this absolutely irrelevant GM ladder distribution is last resort for toss haters. Protoss tournament results affect even smaller amount of players. Sorry for me playing the game and not just watching and wanting to have a better ladder experience. (fun fact, I main Protoss) | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 15 2021 23:34 Moonerz wrote: I agree with the lurkers being pretty bulky so storm isnt as effective, regardless of damage, as it is against like marines or banes for example. But i struggle to think of another toss unit (besides maybe a sentry rework or something.) that is even moderately equipped to deal with lurkers. Archon/Immortal reminds me of the Broodlord vs Thor interaction, theoretically Archon/Immortal should be able to somewhat deal with them but theyre just too bulky and slow. People don't really seem to like air toss but unless something on the ground can deal with lurkers there really isn't an alternative. Ps; only took us about 20 pages to get to the true degen balance whines  We can always create a new one  Or some buff that would, I don't know, strengthen the shields so you can attack into the lurkers. This wouldn't affect TvP because EMP and in PvP both races have it. The issue of lurkers is they shred ground Protoss to pieces so you have to go air. Protoss needs a reliable anti lurker weapon - like tank, ghost or liberator. Launching a ball of fire every 20 seconds doesn't kinda cut it, especially when you have to aim the damn ball. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 16 2021 01:05 deacon.frost wrote: Protoss tournament results affect even smaller amount of players. Sorry for me playing the game and not just watching and wanting to have a better ladder experience. (fun fact, I main Protoss) Filthy Protoss race traitor how dare you disagree with that man's rage post! | ||
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darklycid
3515 Posts
On December 16 2021 01:05 deacon.frost wrote: Protoss tournament results affect even smaller amount of players. Sorry for me playing the game and not just watching and wanting to have a better ladder experience. (fun fact, I main Protoss) You enjoy protoss ladder experience? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26078 Posts
On December 16 2021 00:46 Elantris wrote: Why would you even care about GM ladder population? This is a problem for a very small amount of people meanwhile protoss tournament perfomance problems affect all the viewers. I tell you why. Because this absolutely irrelevant GM ladder distribution is last resort for toss haters. Toss is frequently bullshit on ladder, considerably below that GM level and endlessly frustrating to play against Some people will post endlessly on TL and follow the scene having long ceased playing, like myself. I’m sure it’s a sizeable chunk of viewers, but long-term I don’t think a scene can be healthy if it haemorrhages players Protoss can dominate the ‘pretty bloody good at the game’ high master/GM level and be impotent at the very highest level of the game at the same time, it’s not a deflection to acknowledge one while pointing the other out. Trap just got skewered 7-1 by Serral and looked completely powerless, the difficult trick is to give tools that a player like his calibre can use to bridge that gap without making players at a lower level better by default. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16009 Posts
On December 15 2021 23:34 Moonerz wrote: I agree with the lurkers being pretty bulky so storm isnt as effective, regardless of damage, as it is against like marines or banes for example. But i struggle to think of another toss unit (besides maybe a sentry rework or something.) that is even moderately equipped to deal with lurkers. Archon/Immortal reminds me of the Broodlord vs Thor interaction, theoretically Archon/Immortal should be able to somewhat deal with them but theyre just too bulky and slow. People don't really seem to like air toss but unless something on the ground can deal with lurkers there really isn't an alternative. Ps; only took us about 20 pages to get to the true degen balance whines Disruptors maybe? Yeah Vipers counter them but if you get like 10 Disruptors it becomes hard to abduct every single one. Problem is that when Zerg transitions to Broodlords those become pretty much useless honestly the best solution would just be to buff Protoss midgame so they can apply more pressure to Zerg and they can't transition as easily to Hive-upgraded Lurkers | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
Protoss can dominate the ‘pretty bloody good at the game’ high master/GM level and be impotent at the very highest level of the game at the same time, it’s not a deflection to acknowledge one while pointing the other out. Trap just got skewered 7-1 by Serral and looked completely powerless, the difficult trick is to give tools that a player like his calibre can use to bridge that gap without making players at a lower level better by default. This so much, perfectly worded. | ||
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darklycid
3515 Posts
On December 16 2021 01:49 Charoisaur wrote: Disruptors maybe? Yeah Vipers counter them but if you get like 10 Disruptors it becomes hard to abduct every single one. Problem is that when Zerg transitions to Broodlords those become pretty much useless honestly the best solution would just be to buff Protoss midgame so they can apply more pressure to Zerg and they can't transition as easily to Hive-upgraded Lurkers Protoss ground imo needs to become more attractive to play while obv voids need to become less easy to play would prolly help both sides. | ||
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Moonerz
United States459 Posts
On December 16 2021 01:49 Charoisaur wrote: Disruptors maybe? Yeah Vipers counter them but if you get like 10 Disruptors it becomes hard to abduct every single one. Problem is that when Zerg transitions to Broodlords those become pretty much useless honestly the best solution would just be to buff Protoss midgame so they can apply more pressure to Zerg and they can't transition as easily to Hive-upgraded Lurkers Well yeah besides HT I think Disruptor is the other option. I don't really play Protoss except when I goof around playing random and end up getting P. But I would imagine 10 ruptors would just leave a huge hole in terms of supporting units but I might be wrong. In addition to that Vipers just whittle down that number and run back consume evos and come right back. Gateway units dont seem good enough. Robo units seem to take too long to build up and are too easily defeated. Which leaves Stargate as the only viable option. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26078 Posts
On December 16 2021 01:49 Charoisaur wrote: Disruptors maybe? Yeah Vipers counter them but if you get like 10 Disruptors it becomes hard to abduct every single one. Problem is that when Zerg transitions to Broodlords those become pretty much useless honestly the best solution would just be to buff Protoss midgame so they can apply more pressure to Zerg and they can't transition as easily to Hive-upgraded Lurkers Disruptors become exponentially harder to control the more of them you have. You’ve got to keep them at optimal range, direct their shots manually and manage cooldowns for 10 units Thrown into a really technical lategame army and it becomes basically impractical to do, if you’re controlling your air, tagging with oracles, pushing Templars up and back to feedback vipers etc If you’re playing Archon and someone is babysitting Disruptors they’d be hugely potent I believe, I think the limitation is on what one player can realistically control There are scenarios where this is less difficult and you see a lot of disruptors, PvP you’re basically just controlling stalkers and disruptors, and PvT you frequently see 4-5+, but Terran lack abilities such as abduct and the comps are a little less technical than super lategame against Zerg Zerg lategame armies are also pretty damn technical to control, which is why there’s only a pretty slim number of players who can reliably beat the best Protoss players out there, it’s much less easy than it looks. Protoss at times I’ve seen experimenting with super technical comps and they haven’t managed to make it work, whether that’s them not being viable I don’t know If Protoss has more midgame tools, yeah I agree that would be super helpful, and probably the route that needs to be taken. What about a sentry upgrade that adds a (small) damage AoE? Maybe gate it behind Templar tech It wouldn’t shred lings, banes or broodlings in seconds, but it’d do a bit of damage so you could pick them off quicker and limit their damage. It’d also be useful in defending outlying expansions potentially, the upgraded sentry field wouldn’t wipe them out quickly, but in an extended runby scenario it would be something to think about | ||
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Elantris
66 Posts
On December 16 2021 01:42 WombaT wrote: the difficult trick is to give tools that a player like his calibre can use to bridge that gap without making players at a lower level better by default. This will never work. This is delusional logic that just gaslighting toss weakness. Blink stalker is one of the most skillbased units in the game yet this community went completely nuts demanding nerfs during blink era of HotS. | ||
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Moonerz
United States459 Posts
On December 16 2021 03:14 Elantris wrote: This will never work. This is delusional logic that just gaslighting toss weakness. Blink stalker is one of the most skillbased units in the game yet this community went completely nuts demanding nerfs during blink era of HotS. Did you play during that era? It was really insane. Go back and look at some of the maps too like Heavy Rain. The entire main was blinkable it was so much surface area to try to defend. Protoss can be weak now and have been OP at certain points in the past. That has nothing to do with the current state of Protoss | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
- increased attack & movement speed (7-8% maybe?) - available at citadel when templar archives is built - cost 150/250 Would that help anything? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26078 Posts
On December 16 2021 03:14 Elantris wrote: This will never work. This is delusional logic that just gaslighting toss weakness. Blink stalker is one of the most skillbased units in the game yet this community went completely nuts demanding nerfs during blink era of HotS. Can people stop misusing the word gaslighting? I literally said Protoss are struggling at the very highest level. They’re also not struggling, whatsoever on ladder. If you buff something outside of the parameters of ‘only a Trap level player can make use of this’, you make Protoss even more dominant on ladder. I’m not sure why I’m typing this because I pretty clearly said it last post Blakers are strong unit in the hands of a skilled player, there’s a clear gap between a great stalker user like Parting or herO, they don’t scale. Bio and big Zerg balls melt them no matter how good you are with them, they’ve only ever been potent in dedicated timing attacks, or as a good complement to a composition/having defensive utility. Blink allins basically suck in PvZ now given the LoTV economy changes. They’re a big skill/finesse unit, Protoss aren’t lacking in those. Phoenixes reward skill highly, Templars and Disruptors as well, sentries as well The PvT blink era was shit, maps played a factor too, but the problem was Toss could tech hard behind feigned stalker pressure or just kill you with a stalker all-in and it was really hard to pick what they were doing. Just made for bad Starcraft, was rightly nerfed. Know what almost doesn’t matter? How good you are with finesse units like stalkers or phoenixes in a high level lategame, because they don’t feature In a crude sense given how the race works the problem is the mechanically demanding units where skill really makes a difference falls off, and you have to transition to comps where it’s more A-move focused, and the best players can’t make as much extra use of them. Be it Reynors lings vs Trap’s zealots or whatever. Partings stalkers will be like 15x better than mine but when it gets to lategame I don’t think his zealots will be all that superior | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26078 Posts
On December 16 2021 03:37 LSN wrote: Give stalkers a new upgrade: - increased attack & movement speed (7-8% maybe?) - available at citadel when templar archives is built - cost 150/250 Would that help anything? Alternatively you could give them a shield regen boost post blinking, you could really boost sustain a little I think one of the factions in campaign has this It has the ‘advantage’ of only being useful in the hands of someone who’s really good at blink micro and it’s not an outright boost to A-moving Also would have a muscle memory advantage. We’ve all got the stalker stutter step and attack speed down, it’ll take a while to adjust to an upgrade if they’re moving/attacking faster | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 16 2021 03:14 Elantris wrote: This will never work. This is delusional logic that just gaslighting toss weakness. Blink stalker is one of the most skillbased units in the game yet this community went completely nuts demanding nerfs during blink era of HotS. Not only is that not what gaslighting is but your example isn't even relevant to what you're quoting. The blink era dominance needed a nerf absolutely and the community was right to demand it, but that has nothing to do with saying that Protoss need a very specific/targeted buff against Zerg that doesn't make ladder Protoss even stronger/more versatile. 99.99% of the Zerg population isn't Serral, fighting Skytoss below the highest level is incredibly micro intensive and unforgiving while requiring very low APM on the Protoss. Serral makes dominating Protoss in the late game look way easier then it is for us mere mortals. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On December 14 2021 21:40 Nebuchad wrote: Not really true, because we're talking about a very limited sample size of players. But again I'm not sure why you're so invested in the difference between the two, it weakens your argument for no discernable gain. I think you're looking at only the small amount of top pros in saying very limited sample size of players? But there are millions of players who have played this game and any one of them could've decided to pursue tournament winnings or a pro career which must inevitably be narrowed down to a small amount of players at the highest level. So yes if a race isn't too weak the players who chose it won't be abnormally unskilled. There are clearly lots of high level protoss players on the ladder yet the race gets crushed against a zerg who can play quite correctly. It doesn't matter anyway, even the fact that this thread is so active right now with so many people discussing what problems make this race the weakest in the game shows that its not an issue of the best players happening to not choose protoss. If that was the case it would be clear that the race is fine but its players are just getting outplayed. That is not the case, again Trap should not be constantly getting roflstomped by Serral like he's nothing. | ||
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