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On December 17 2021 21:32 YuMi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 07:12 Woosixion wrote:
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top siriously? in late game, protoss is the hardest to handle, while Zerg basically A move and terran only manage marines and some passive units, protoss needs to handle so much fine unit micro (disruptors, storms, forcefields etc).
yea seems about right
that's why i love to watch zergs
no one a-moves like a top pro elite zerg
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On December 17 2021 17:55 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2021 05:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 03:47 NinjaNight wrote:On December 16 2021 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 10:57 MarianoSC2 wrote:On December 16 2021 06:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 06:12 NinjaNight wrote:On December 14 2021 21:40 Nebuchad wrote:On December 14 2021 16:53 NinjaNight wrote:On December 13 2021 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:[quote] I don't know what argument you think you're answering but it's not the argument I have. It is obvious that protoss is by miles the weakest race at the very highest level of play. This doesn't answer the question of whether it happens because protoss is weak or because the few people who have enough skill to be at the highest level of play, let's say 5 or 6 people, just coincidentally all happened to not pick protoss at the start of the game years ago. This is a question that can't be answered. We cannot directly experience a world in which Serral chose to play protoss instead of zerg. That's the entirety of the issue. Maybe if Serral was protoss and Trap was zerg Serral would still have 4-0ed in this match, and we would be having a thread about how zerg can't win at the top level. Or maybe not. It's impossible to say. We don't have to say it, however, since either way the end result is that protoss is not winning, and you and I are rooting for protoss. As a consequence, I once again did the sane thing this afternoon and I didn't watch Trap play vs Serral, which means I had a much happier afternoon than you  First of all if a race is strong enough its extremely unlikely the good people just decided not to pick it, generally player strength will average out pretty closely with similarly strong races. There's too large of a player pool for that. We don't need to directly experience such a world, the player who is taking 70% of protoss tournament wins (Trap) consistently being crushed like a bronze league noob demonstrates the race is just bad. Not really true, because we're talking about a very limited sample size of players. But again I'm not sure why you're so invested in the difference between the two, it weakens your argument for no discernable gain. I think you're looking at only the small amount of top pros in saying very limited sample size of players? But there are millions of players who have played this game and any one of them could've decided to pursue tournament winnings or a pro career which must inevitably be narrowed down to a small amount of players at the highest level. So yes if a race isn't too weak the players who chose it won't be abnormally unskilled. There are clearly lots of high level protoss players on the ladder yet the race gets crushed against a zerg who can play quite correctly. It doesn't matter anyway, even the fact that this thread is so active right now with so many people discussing what problems make this race the weakest in the game shows that its not an issue of the best players happening to not choose protoss. If that was the case it would be clear that the race is fine but its players are just getting outplayed. That is not the case, again Trap should not be constantly getting roflstomped by Serral like he's nothing. No the fact that many people are posting in this thread isn't evidence of anything, you're getting desperate to prove something that you don't need to prove and I don't know why you're doing it. He was right in his last post though. There is clear evidence that at the highest level, specifically talking about ZvP if both play perfectly, there is not chance for Protoss to win, no matter how they play. Toss can only rely on the Zerg to make a mistake in the perception of the game. Take Trap vs Reynor and Trap vs Serral as examples I think that tells the whole story. Trap won against Reynor because he caught him off guard with timing attacks which the Zerg didnt anticipate properly = Zergs mistake, well punished. But against Serral, a lot more solid player with perfect game awareness, he looked like a diamond scrub, and he didnt necesarily even have to play trash, just he didnt manage to outsmart the Zerg. Is this how they game is supposed to be? When both players play solid one race is clearly superior by design so they auto-win if they other race does not surprise them? Its bullshit, but its how it is. I remember times in SC2 when even ZvT was eft up... Just get them before ultras or get them before brood/infestor. Those kind of things are just unfair because on the highest level where least mistakes are made they always favor the race which is the most forgiving and with the most macro potential. Now in current state of the game ZvT is okay, but ZvP is a joke and everyone sees that. There is no protoss in the world who can beat a Zerg if both are highest level and both play an even game, no one. And its not like Serral is unbeatable, its just that in ZvP by design and macro mechanics its a requirement for Protoss to surprise this kind of player because they are playing at a disadvantage for most of the game. Its stupid. Will it ever change? No, but why close our eyes against it? To sum it up in RTS I think that on the highest level if one player has better tools at their disposal then the other, its a problem and clear inbalance and its what ZvP has been for ages. Those two races are polar opposites and while there are tactics the Protoss can use to exploit this in their advantages, they are less and less effective the higher level your opponent is. That is why there is such a huge discrepancy between standard ladder and top players. The skill cap of the Zerg is just too high compared to Protoss.... It is extremely obvious that at the top level of play protoss doesn't win, I've been saying that throughout the thread and it's the reason why I'm not watching Starcraft. This guy is trying to demonstrate to me that this can only be due to race and not to the fact that 5 or 6 people at the highest level are just better than the rest and happen to not play protoss, which he doesn't need to do and he obviously doesn't have evidence for because there's no way to have evidence for that. I think almost every single one of my posts in this thread contains the idea that protoss is weak at top level, it is kind of impressive that you would manage to miss that. Your refusal to accept anything as evidence doesn't mean evidence doesn't exist. You always ignore the Trap vs Serral conundrum for instance and cherry pick anything else to detract from the overall idea. Here you have a similarly skilled player getting demolished, it IS evidence even if its not perfect proof. Evidence doesn't mean the same thing as complete proof maybe thats your problem. As he said there's plenty of clear evidence that protoss relies on the zerg to make major mistakes in perception otherwise zerg will pretty much always win. If you don't have complete proof do you acknowledge that there's a possibility that the other scenario is right? Yes I wouldn't say its impossible but it should be very unlikely, and if you understand the game well you can tell from watching high level PvZs that its not purely inferior player skill and zerg truly does have the advantage.
I see, so in summary when I said it was possible and you went after me for saying that for several pages, I was right and you were wrong?
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On December 17 2021 22:20 bela.mervado wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2021 21:32 YuMi wrote:On November 14 2021 07:12 Woosixion wrote:
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top siriously? in late game, protoss is the hardest to handle, while Zerg basically A move and terran only manage marines and some passive units, protoss needs to handle so much fine unit micro (disruptors, storms, forcefields etc). yea seems about right that's why i love to watch zergs no one a-moves like a top pro elite zerg
Hahaha yup we all know what an a move noob Serral is with his 400 APM obvious patch Zerg.
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On December 18 2021 00:21 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2021 17:55 NinjaNight wrote:On December 17 2021 05:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 03:47 NinjaNight wrote:On December 16 2021 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 10:57 MarianoSC2 wrote:On December 16 2021 06:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 06:12 NinjaNight wrote:On December 14 2021 21:40 Nebuchad wrote:On December 14 2021 16:53 NinjaNight wrote:
[quote]
First of all if a race is strong enough its extremely unlikely the good people just decided not to pick it, generally player strength will average out pretty closely with similarly strong races. There's too large of a player pool for that.
We don't need to directly experience such a world, the player who is taking 70% of protoss tournament wins (Trap) consistently being crushed like a bronze league noob demonstrates the race is just bad.
Not really true, because we're talking about a very limited sample size of players. But again I'm not sure why you're so invested in the difference between the two, it weakens your argument for no discernable gain. I think you're looking at only the small amount of top pros in saying very limited sample size of players? But there are millions of players who have played this game and any one of them could've decided to pursue tournament winnings or a pro career which must inevitably be narrowed down to a small amount of players at the highest level. So yes if a race isn't too weak the players who chose it won't be abnormally unskilled. There are clearly lots of high level protoss players on the ladder yet the race gets crushed against a zerg who can play quite correctly. It doesn't matter anyway, even the fact that this thread is so active right now with so many people discussing what problems make this race the weakest in the game shows that its not an issue of the best players happening to not choose protoss. If that was the case it would be clear that the race is fine but its players are just getting outplayed. That is not the case, again Trap should not be constantly getting roflstomped by Serral like he's nothing. No the fact that many people are posting in this thread isn't evidence of anything, you're getting desperate to prove something that you don't need to prove and I don't know why you're doing it. He was right in his last post though. There is clear evidence that at the highest level, specifically talking about ZvP if both play perfectly, there is not chance for Protoss to win, no matter how they play. Toss can only rely on the Zerg to make a mistake in the perception of the game. Take Trap vs Reynor and Trap vs Serral as examples I think that tells the whole story. Trap won against Reynor because he caught him off guard with timing attacks which the Zerg didnt anticipate properly = Zergs mistake, well punished. But against Serral, a lot more solid player with perfect game awareness, he looked like a diamond scrub, and he didnt necesarily even have to play trash, just he didnt manage to outsmart the Zerg. Is this how they game is supposed to be? When both players play solid one race is clearly superior by design so they auto-win if they other race does not surprise them? Its bullshit, but its how it is. I remember times in SC2 when even ZvT was eft up... Just get them before ultras or get them before brood/infestor. Those kind of things are just unfair because on the highest level where least mistakes are made they always favor the race which is the most forgiving and with the most macro potential. Now in current state of the game ZvT is okay, but ZvP is a joke and everyone sees that. There is no protoss in the world who can beat a Zerg if both are highest level and both play an even game, no one. And its not like Serral is unbeatable, its just that in ZvP by design and macro mechanics its a requirement for Protoss to surprise this kind of player because they are playing at a disadvantage for most of the game. Its stupid. Will it ever change? No, but why close our eyes against it? To sum it up in RTS I think that on the highest level if one player has better tools at their disposal then the other, its a problem and clear inbalance and its what ZvP has been for ages. Those two races are polar opposites and while there are tactics the Protoss can use to exploit this in their advantages, they are less and less effective the higher level your opponent is. That is why there is such a huge discrepancy between standard ladder and top players. The skill cap of the Zerg is just too high compared to Protoss.... It is extremely obvious that at the top level of play protoss doesn't win, I've been saying that throughout the thread and it's the reason why I'm not watching Starcraft. This guy is trying to demonstrate to me that this can only be due to race and not to the fact that 5 or 6 people at the highest level are just better than the rest and happen to not play protoss, which he doesn't need to do and he obviously doesn't have evidence for because there's no way to have evidence for that. I think almost every single one of my posts in this thread contains the idea that protoss is weak at top level, it is kind of impressive that you would manage to miss that. Your refusal to accept anything as evidence doesn't mean evidence doesn't exist. You always ignore the Trap vs Serral conundrum for instance and cherry pick anything else to detract from the overall idea. Here you have a similarly skilled player getting demolished, it IS evidence even if its not perfect proof. Evidence doesn't mean the same thing as complete proof maybe thats your problem. As he said there's plenty of clear evidence that protoss relies on the zerg to make major mistakes in perception otherwise zerg will pretty much always win. If you don't have complete proof do you acknowledge that there's a possibility that the other scenario is right? Yes I wouldn't say its impossible but it should be very unlikely, and if you understand the game well you can tell from watching high level PvZs that its not purely inferior player skill and zerg truly does have the advantage. I see, so in summary when I said it was possible and you went after me for saying that for several pages, I was right and you were wrong?
No I'm still saying we can tell its clearly not just player skill making it the weakest race, that doesn't mean it was impossible for that to happen. I'm just saying it is possible to see that this is not what's happening. And I don't mean to go after you I just strongly disagree with your viewpoint and enjoy discussing it.
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On December 18 2021 17:17 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2021 00:21 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 17:55 NinjaNight wrote:On December 17 2021 05:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 03:47 NinjaNight wrote:On December 16 2021 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 10:57 MarianoSC2 wrote:On December 16 2021 06:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 06:12 NinjaNight wrote:On December 14 2021 21:40 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Not really true, because we're talking about a very limited sample size of players. But again I'm not sure why you're so invested in the difference between the two, it weakens your argument for no discernable gain. I think you're looking at only the small amount of top pros in saying very limited sample size of players? But there are millions of players who have played this game and any one of them could've decided to pursue tournament winnings or a pro career which must inevitably be narrowed down to a small amount of players at the highest level. So yes if a race isn't too weak the players who chose it won't be abnormally unskilled. There are clearly lots of high level protoss players on the ladder yet the race gets crushed against a zerg who can play quite correctly. It doesn't matter anyway, even the fact that this thread is so active right now with so many people discussing what problems make this race the weakest in the game shows that its not an issue of the best players happening to not choose protoss. If that was the case it would be clear that the race is fine but its players are just getting outplayed. That is not the case, again Trap should not be constantly getting roflstomped by Serral like he's nothing. No the fact that many people are posting in this thread isn't evidence of anything, you're getting desperate to prove something that you don't need to prove and I don't know why you're doing it. He was right in his last post though. There is clear evidence that at the highest level, specifically talking about ZvP if both play perfectly, there is not chance for Protoss to win, no matter how they play. Toss can only rely on the Zerg to make a mistake in the perception of the game. Take Trap vs Reynor and Trap vs Serral as examples I think that tells the whole story. Trap won against Reynor because he caught him off guard with timing attacks which the Zerg didnt anticipate properly = Zergs mistake, well punished. But against Serral, a lot more solid player with perfect game awareness, he looked like a diamond scrub, and he didnt necesarily even have to play trash, just he didnt manage to outsmart the Zerg. Is this how they game is supposed to be? When both players play solid one race is clearly superior by design so they auto-win if they other race does not surprise them? Its bullshit, but its how it is. I remember times in SC2 when even ZvT was eft up... Just get them before ultras or get them before brood/infestor. Those kind of things are just unfair because on the highest level where least mistakes are made they always favor the race which is the most forgiving and with the most macro potential. Now in current state of the game ZvT is okay, but ZvP is a joke and everyone sees that. There is no protoss in the world who can beat a Zerg if both are highest level and both play an even game, no one. And its not like Serral is unbeatable, its just that in ZvP by design and macro mechanics its a requirement for Protoss to surprise this kind of player because they are playing at a disadvantage for most of the game. Its stupid. Will it ever change? No, but why close our eyes against it? To sum it up in RTS I think that on the highest level if one player has better tools at their disposal then the other, its a problem and clear inbalance and its what ZvP has been for ages. Those two races are polar opposites and while there are tactics the Protoss can use to exploit this in their advantages, they are less and less effective the higher level your opponent is. That is why there is such a huge discrepancy between standard ladder and top players. The skill cap of the Zerg is just too high compared to Protoss.... It is extremely obvious that at the top level of play protoss doesn't win, I've been saying that throughout the thread and it's the reason why I'm not watching Starcraft. This guy is trying to demonstrate to me that this can only be due to race and not to the fact that 5 or 6 people at the highest level are just better than the rest and happen to not play protoss, which he doesn't need to do and he obviously doesn't have evidence for because there's no way to have evidence for that. I think almost every single one of my posts in this thread contains the idea that protoss is weak at top level, it is kind of impressive that you would manage to miss that. Your refusal to accept anything as evidence doesn't mean evidence doesn't exist. You always ignore the Trap vs Serral conundrum for instance and cherry pick anything else to detract from the overall idea. Here you have a similarly skilled player getting demolished, it IS evidence even if its not perfect proof. Evidence doesn't mean the same thing as complete proof maybe thats your problem. As he said there's plenty of clear evidence that protoss relies on the zerg to make major mistakes in perception otherwise zerg will pretty much always win. If you don't have complete proof do you acknowledge that there's a possibility that the other scenario is right? Yes I wouldn't say its impossible but it should be very unlikely, and if you understand the game well you can tell from watching high level PvZs that its not purely inferior player skill and zerg truly does have the advantage. I see, so in summary when I said it was possible and you went after me for saying that for several pages, I was right and you were wrong? No I'm still saying we can tell its clearly not just player skill making it the weakest race, that doesn't mean it was impossible for that to happen. I'm just saying it is possible to see that this is not what's happening. And I don't mean to go after you I just strongly disagree with your viewpoint and enjoy discussing it.
You're trying to have it both ways, arguing that we can clearly tell one is the correct answer and also that the other answer could be the correct one at the same time.
A simpler way of describing this is just that both are possible and you think one is more likely than the other. I don't know why you take issue with this.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 18 2021 11:36 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2021 22:20 bela.mervado wrote:On December 17 2021 21:32 YuMi wrote:On November 14 2021 07:12 Woosixion wrote:
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top siriously? in late game, protoss is the hardest to handle, while Zerg basically A move and terran only manage marines and some passive units, protoss needs to handle so much fine unit micro (disruptors, storms, forcefields etc). yea seems about right that's why i love to watch zergs no one a-moves like a top pro elite zerg Hahaha yup we all know what an a move noob Serral is with his 400 APM obvious patch Zerg.
Arguing with the APM is just wrong. That's what got us to the stupid arguments about "look at my APM, it's amazin and this noob with 60 APM just beat me, the game's broken".
Especially considering zerg has naturally bigger APM thanks to how the mechanics works.
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no one a-moves like a top pro elite zerg I know that @deacon but I was responding to this lol
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Little bit offtopic..what i really like about this thread is, that we actually see a discussion about sc2. I know it is somehow stupid since there were thousands of threads like this, But to me it visualised that there are still people caring about the game and really think about improvements instead of resignating. All comments below tournaments barely reach column 2 and most other threads are empty and here suddenly it keeps going (again not judging if its meaningful or not :D).
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DHLC, 1 toss has qualified out of 12 (EU and asia qualifers).... and that toss is Zest.
THe future does NOT look especially bright.
But maybe all toss fans can join in happiness over how strong toss can be in ladder.
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On December 17 2021 05:42 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2021 03:39 Excludos wrote:On November 14 2021 07:12 Woosixion wrote:
if you ask me, as the easiest race this is exactly what they deserve.. easier/less stressful wins against the vast majority of starcraft players but hitting a wall at the tippity top So you just want one of the three races to simply not be viable at the top? That's a weird way of looking at things. How could protoss not be viable at the top when the top made more money than the other races this year though? The premise that protoss are not successful at the top level while still being too present in GM / ladder is false. That does not mean that balance / design can't be improved though, it is true that the PvZ match-up has become painful to watch (and probably play) although it's somewhat balanced
I have seen this info repeated several times in TL and it is simply false. Top Zergs have overall won more money in 2021, no matter how many players you define as "top" in earnings:
Top 1: Z>P>T
Top 2: Z>P>T
Top 3: Z>P>T
Top 4: Z>P>T
Top 5: Z>P>T
Top 6: Z>T>P
... and so on. Source: aligulac.com
Not that I agree with using this metric, but the truth is that Zerg is way ahead of Protoss and Terran, with P above T in the Top 5, and below if you consider more players.
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The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea
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So to clarify, you want protoss to have attacks that can't be defended?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 18 2021 23:20 Beelzebub1 wrote: I know that @deacon but I was responding to this lol
Oh I know, it's just that APM isn't everything xD
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On December 19 2021 04:28 InfCereal wrote:
So to clarify, you want protoss to have attacks that can't be defended?
No, they want Protoss to have attacks that don't fail when scouted.
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On December 19 2021 04:28 InfCereal wrote:
So to clarify, you want protoss to have attacks that can't be defended?
Zerg bois, like this guy above, complain and complain until every possible build can be easily defended (which is fine IF the economy of both sides are the same, but its not), but they also don't tell you that, by being able to defend every possible build, zerg will always come out miles ahead by mid game because of their ridiculous economy coming from larva mechanics. Blizzard got tricked.
The issue is again and again in zerg's far superior economy and unit production. If protoss can't deal significant damage in early to mid game (and I mean significant, killing 5-6 drones don't even cut it), it's game over. If you guys want to be able to defend every possible build by protoss, then the economy and unit productions of protoss have to be on par with zerg (they have something ridiculous called larva mechanics), otherwise its not a fair game.
Just look at every pvz game at the highest level. If protoss doesn't deal big damage early to mid game, its 200 supply zerg versus 130 supply protoss with zerg taking every single base in the map, then we all know wt happens next.
Lets turn starcraft into zvz already. Clearly starcraft doesn't need any other race than zerg.
Zerg economy >>>> Protoss economy, and zerg bois still want every protoss build to deal 0 damage if scouted (which they always do at the highest level, thanks to some stupid thing called speed overlord). Wt does this mean? Zerg always wins lol
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Northern Ireland25729 Posts
On December 19 2021 03:48 kingism wrote:
The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea
GM being absolutely chock full of Protoss players isn’t a good thing, at all. You might not care, but it doesn’t change that
It genuinely baffles me that anyone posting in this thread can view either Protoss sucking at winning big tournaments or dominating ladder numbers as good/bad in isolation.
They’re both bad, in an ideal world close to parity is the idea.
The scene is a whole ecosystem, and yes some people may only post on TL/watch premier tournaments, like myself. Some play the game for a living, some play for pure fun.
Anyone who says ‘fuck ladder/fuck tournament results I don’t care’ is being, in my less than humble opinion, a complete myopic idiot. It’s not 2010 anymore, there’s still a pretty healthy scene but if this is to be the last real patch, the scene withers if it’s grossly imbalanced.
As to the specific reasons why, let’s have some debate sure. Or how pronounced issues are but people saying such daft things confuses me.
Serral and Rogue are supremely talented, but so are players from all the factions. We’re not really close to Zerg dominance we’ve seen in other eras, BL/Infestor was a dominant comp both in vP and vT
At least at the very top I’m not seeing much evidence that Zerg is an issue outside of vP. Maru’s just won Super Tournament and broke Rogue’s Bo7 mastery, Clem’s went from competing solidly with Serral and Reynor to trading wins with regularity and beating them.
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Northern Ireland25729 Posts
On December 19 2021 05:16 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2021 23:20 Beelzebub1 wrote:no one a-moves like a top pro elite zerg I know that @deacon but I was responding to this lol Oh I know, it's just that APM isn't everything xD
True, Serral and Maru are the most mechanically clean players in the whole scene, IMO
I dunno if their APM reflects this at all, but watching their FPVs, it’s a thing of beauty.
They do exactly what they’re trying to do, with no sloppiness, like their mind and KBM are linked. Others can get similar results but there’s always some spam or some redundancy there.
When GSL (and to my eternal frustration this isn’t a standard for every tournament) did FP streams, Dark was blazingly, ridiculously fast but it felt a little more chaotic.
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On December 18 2021 20:00 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2021 17:17 NinjaNight wrote:On December 18 2021 00:21 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 17:55 NinjaNight wrote:On December 17 2021 05:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 03:47 NinjaNight wrote:On December 16 2021 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 10:57 MarianoSC2 wrote:On December 16 2021 06:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 06:12 NinjaNight wrote:
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I think you're looking at only the small amount of top pros in saying very limited sample size of players? But there are millions of players who have played this game and any one of them could've decided to pursue tournament winnings or a pro career which must inevitably be narrowed down to a small amount of players at the highest level. So yes if a race isn't too weak the players who chose it won't be abnormally unskilled. There are clearly lots of high level protoss players on the ladder yet the race gets crushed against a zerg who can play quite correctly.
It doesn't matter anyway, even the fact that this thread is so active right now with so many people discussing what problems make this race the weakest in the game shows that its not an issue of the best players happening to not choose protoss. If that was the case it would be clear that the race is fine but its players are just getting outplayed. That is not the case, again Trap should not be constantly getting roflstomped by Serral like he's nothing. No the fact that many people are posting in this thread isn't evidence of anything, you're getting desperate to prove something that you don't need to prove and I don't know why you're doing it. He was right in his last post though. There is clear evidence that at the highest level, specifically talking about ZvP if both play perfectly, there is not chance for Protoss to win, no matter how they play. Toss can only rely on the Zerg to make a mistake in the perception of the game. Take Trap vs Reynor and Trap vs Serral as examples I think that tells the whole story. Trap won against Reynor because he caught him off guard with timing attacks which the Zerg didnt anticipate properly = Zergs mistake, well punished. But against Serral, a lot more solid player with perfect game awareness, he looked like a diamond scrub, and he didnt necesarily even have to play trash, just he didnt manage to outsmart the Zerg. Is this how they game is supposed to be? When both players play solid one race is clearly superior by design so they auto-win if they other race does not surprise them? Its bullshit, but its how it is. I remember times in SC2 when even ZvT was eft up... Just get them before ultras or get them before brood/infestor. Those kind of things are just unfair because on the highest level where least mistakes are made they always favor the race which is the most forgiving and with the most macro potential. Now in current state of the game ZvT is okay, but ZvP is a joke and everyone sees that. There is no protoss in the world who can beat a Zerg if both are highest level and both play an even game, no one. And its not like Serral is unbeatable, its just that in ZvP by design and macro mechanics its a requirement for Protoss to surprise this kind of player because they are playing at a disadvantage for most of the game. Its stupid. Will it ever change? No, but why close our eyes against it? To sum it up in RTS I think that on the highest level if one player has better tools at their disposal then the other, its a problem and clear inbalance and its what ZvP has been for ages. Those two races are polar opposites and while there are tactics the Protoss can use to exploit this in their advantages, they are less and less effective the higher level your opponent is. That is why there is such a huge discrepancy between standard ladder and top players. The skill cap of the Zerg is just too high compared to Protoss.... It is extremely obvious that at the top level of play protoss doesn't win, I've been saying that throughout the thread and it's the reason why I'm not watching Starcraft. This guy is trying to demonstrate to me that this can only be due to race and not to the fact that 5 or 6 people at the highest level are just better than the rest and happen to not play protoss, which he doesn't need to do and he obviously doesn't have evidence for because there's no way to have evidence for that. I think almost every single one of my posts in this thread contains the idea that protoss is weak at top level, it is kind of impressive that you would manage to miss that. Your refusal to accept anything as evidence doesn't mean evidence doesn't exist. You always ignore the Trap vs Serral conundrum for instance and cherry pick anything else to detract from the overall idea. Here you have a similarly skilled player getting demolished, it IS evidence even if its not perfect proof. Evidence doesn't mean the same thing as complete proof maybe thats your problem. As he said there's plenty of clear evidence that protoss relies on the zerg to make major mistakes in perception otherwise zerg will pretty much always win. If you don't have complete proof do you acknowledge that there's a possibility that the other scenario is right? Yes I wouldn't say its impossible but it should be very unlikely, and if you understand the game well you can tell from watching high level PvZs that its not purely inferior player skill and zerg truly does have the advantage. I see, so in summary when I said it was possible and you went after me for saying that for several pages, I was right and you were wrong? No I'm still saying we can tell its clearly not just player skill making it the weakest race, that doesn't mean it was impossible for that to happen. I'm just saying it is possible to see that this is not what's happening. And I don't mean to go after you I just strongly disagree with your viewpoint and enjoy discussing it. You're trying to have it both ways, arguing that we can clearly tell one is the correct answer and also that the other answer could be the correct one at the same time. A simpler way of describing this is just that both are possible and you think one is more likely than the other. I don't know why you take issue with this.
Basically I don't see it as contradictory because I believe its possible but it doesn't matter that its possible because its clearly not what's really happening. I said I think it should be very unlikely but my reasoning isn't just based on that, also by observation we can use reality to confirm thats not whats happening. I only take issue with the concept that its impossible for anyone to see if protoss weakness is caused by lack of player skill or not, I don't think it is anywhere near impossible. You probably think so just because there's no obvious way to concretely measure that.
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On December 19 2021 09:43 WombaT wrote:
Anyone who says ‘fuck ladder/fuck tournament results I don’t care’ is being, in my less than humble opinion, a complete myopic idiot.
Nice, now you are straight up offending people who, unlike you, don't live in delusional world where perfect balance can be achieved on every level of play. It simply can't and blizzard couldn't do that even when they really tried.
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On December 19 2021 17:32 Elantris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2021 09:43 WombaT wrote:
Anyone who says ‘fuck ladder/fuck tournament results I don’t care’ is being, in my less than humble opinion, a complete myopic idiot. Nice, now you are straight up offending people who, unlike you, don't live in delusional world where perfect balance can be achieved on every level of play. It simply can't and blizzard couldn't do that even when they really tried.
There's a big difference between `achieving balance' and `having 3 races in GM' 
Which the balance team managed for pretty much every patch except the literal last one.
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EPT
