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On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare.
Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others.
But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010.
Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't.
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On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have.
That's a bit of a catch-22 though, isn't it? You can't deflect "there is a problem with high level play" with "there just aren't any top protoss players" because "the top protoss players don't perform as well".
With what metric do you measure someone's skill/performance? Wins, right? Because there are inherent problems saying things like "Maru demolished Zest, but Zest is actually more skilled". You just couldn't tell unless he starts consistently beating him, right? We have only one indisputable metric, and everything else is just theorycrafters saying things like "he has more control groups, so he's better" and other nonsense.
This argument has been shit since people started using it in the GomTvT days. Yeah, we can't name any "top performers", that's what we are talking about.
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On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare. Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't.
No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent.
However, Trap played a series against Serral recently and even I had to admit that Protoss looks kind of...slow...compared to modern Zerg. Then again, I just saw Hero and Solar play and it looked very competitive, went down to the last match.
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On December 20 2021 12:44 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. That's a bit of a catch-22 though, isn't it? You can't deflect "there is a problem with high level play" with "there just aren't any top protoss players" because "the top protoss players don't perform as well". With what metric do you measure someone's skill/performance? Wins, right? Because there are inherent problems saying things like "Maru demolished Zest, but Zest is actually more skilled". You just couldn't tell unless he starts consistently beating him, right? We have only one indisputable metric, and everything else is just theorycrafters saying things like "he has more control groups, so he's better" and other nonsense. This argument has been shit since people started using it in the GomTvT days. Yeah, we can't name any "top performers", that's what we are talking about.
No. That's a bunch of crap. I don't judge skill based on only results and anyone that does is wrong to do so. It's the same as when people treat aligulac as anything other than just a tool in a toolkit. Its rankings are not law and they never have ever been.
I judge skill based on what I see. On mechanics, on timings, on strategies, on executions, on decision making while under pressure etc. etc.
I judge that and then I compare it to results and I use the aggregate to judge how good someone is at the top level. Trap really is the best Protoss player in the world, WHEN he is playing well, but he's not consistent and that has more to do with his fragile nerves than anything that has to do with the race. I haven't seen any Protoss player currently playing that is not in the South Korean army at the moment that has anything close to level of skill that Trap does. Nowhere close. And Trap just is not as good as any of the elite 5 players I mentioned before.
Trap isn't as good as Maru, he isn't as good as Rogue, he isn't as good as Dark. He just isn't.
And there is no other Protoss player that can measure up to the level of skill that Trap has. Try and name one. You can't do it because one doesn't exist. Not right now anyway. I'm hoping that Classic or HerO (who just got BACK from the South Korean army) can get back into shape soon and I hope players like Maxpax or Goblin develop (unlikely) the way that Reynor or Clem did but aside from those things happening I just do not see any big influx of skilled Protoss players coming to the scene anytime soon.
Trap is the best they have and he just isn't as good as the elite 5 are.
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On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare. Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent.
I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent.
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On December 20 2021 12:53 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare. Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent. I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent.
That might be true except it's the same Zergs that keep winning and the field of Protoss players that show up just to be eaten in tournaments gets wider and wider.
Like I can't even remember the latest new Zerg player to come onto the scene. Reynor was legit the last one and the pace at which he shot to the top was incredible. It was OBVIOUS that he was something special.
I just don't remember the last time I saw that same thing from a Protoss player. I see loads of names I don't recognize qualifying. I see loads of green in the TL tournament brackets. I just don't see anyone separating themselves from the pack.
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On December 20 2021 13:33 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 12:53 Nebuchad wrote:On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare. Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent. I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent. That might be true except it's the same Zergs that keep winning and the field of Protoss players that show up just to be eaten in tournaments gets wider and wider. Like I can't even remember the latest new Zerg player to come onto the scene. Reynor was legit the last one and the pace at which he shot to the top was incredible. It was OBVIOUS that he was something special. I just don't remember the last time I saw that same thing from a Protoss player. I see loads of names I don't recognize qualifying. I see loads of green in the TL tournament brackets. I just don't see anyone separating themselves from the pack.
Maxpax?
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On December 20 2021 13:41 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 13:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:53 Nebuchad wrote:On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare. Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent. I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent. That might be true except it's the same Zergs that keep winning and the field of Protoss players that show up just to be eaten in tournaments gets wider and wider. Like I can't even remember the latest new Zerg player to come onto the scene. Reynor was legit the last one and the pace at which he shot to the top was incredible. It was OBVIOUS that he was something special. I just don't remember the last time I saw that same thing from a Protoss player. I see loads of names I don't recognize qualifying. I see loads of green in the TL tournament brackets. I just don't see anyone separating themselves from the pack. Maxpax?
But is he ready to be anything other than a small speed bump to the elite 5? I don't think so. I'd give him 25 to 1 odds at best to take a 5 game series in a major tournament off of one of them.
Hell I don't even have him as a hands down favorite in PvP from the rest of the pack of EU Protoss at the moment.
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On December 20 2021 13:46 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 13:41 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:53 Nebuchad wrote:On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare. Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent. I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent. That might be true except it's the same Zergs that keep winning and the field of Protoss players that show up just to be eaten in tournaments gets wider and wider. Like I can't even remember the latest new Zerg player to come onto the scene. Reynor was legit the last one and the pace at which he shot to the top was incredible. It was OBVIOUS that he was something special. I just don't remember the last time I saw that same thing from a Protoss player. I see loads of names I don't recognize qualifying. I see loads of green in the TL tournament brackets. I just don't see anyone separating themselves from the pack. Maxpax? But is he ready to be anything other than a small speed bump to the elite 5? I don't think so. I'd give him 25 to 1 odds at best to take a 5 game series in a major tournament off of one of them. Hell I don't even have him as a hands down favorite in PvP from the rest of the pack of EU Protoss at the moment.
Well that's just dumb, his pvp is pretty much above all eu toss but showtime right now from the looks (esp if you factor in the randomness pvp has). And while not on the level of the top 5, his improvements are massive and he has separated himself from the pack.
Edit: also depends on what you mean by the pack, but at least in eu he has imo.
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On December 20 2021 13:52 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 13:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 13:41 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:53 Nebuchad wrote:On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare. Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent. I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent. That might be true except it's the same Zergs that keep winning and the field of Protoss players that show up just to be eaten in tournaments gets wider and wider. Like I can't even remember the latest new Zerg player to come onto the scene. Reynor was legit the last one and the pace at which he shot to the top was incredible. It was OBVIOUS that he was something special. I just don't remember the last time I saw that same thing from a Protoss player. I see loads of names I don't recognize qualifying. I see loads of green in the TL tournament brackets. I just don't see anyone separating themselves from the pack. Maxpax? But is he ready to be anything other than a small speed bump to the elite 5? I don't think so. I'd give him 25 to 1 odds at best to take a 5 game series in a major tournament off of one of them. Hell I don't even have him as a hands down favorite in PvP from the rest of the pack of EU Protoss at the moment. Well that's just dumb, his pvp is pretty much above all eu toss but showtime right now from the looks (esp if you factor in the randomness pvp has). And while not on the level of the top 5, his improvements are massive and he has separated himself from the pack. Edit: also depends on what you mean by the pack, but at least in eu he has imo.
I could be convinced of that, I haven't seen enough of him in the smaller tournaments to really tell. But he hasn't shown me that in any of the big events.
Either way though, we can't seriously be comparing his "separating" from the pack to what Clem or Reynor did. That's the kind of separation I'm talking about. I don't see that from any Protoss players right now. If Maxpax is the latest we have, it's still a very tame rise compared to what those 2 did, and they are just the most recent of the bunch. Serral had a similar meteoric rise to the top as did other Zergs I can think of.
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On December 20 2021 13:57 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 13:52 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 13:41 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:53 Nebuchad wrote:On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor?
Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are.
Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament.
Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player.
Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate. I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran. Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare. Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent. I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent. That might be true except it's the same Zergs that keep winning and the field of Protoss players that show up just to be eaten in tournaments gets wider and wider. Like I can't even remember the latest new Zerg player to come onto the scene. Reynor was legit the last one and the pace at which he shot to the top was incredible. It was OBVIOUS that he was something special. I just don't remember the last time I saw that same thing from a Protoss player. I see loads of names I don't recognize qualifying. I see loads of green in the TL tournament brackets. I just don't see anyone separating themselves from the pack. Maxpax? But is he ready to be anything other than a small speed bump to the elite 5? I don't think so. I'd give him 25 to 1 odds at best to take a 5 game series in a major tournament off of one of them. Hell I don't even have him as a hands down favorite in PvP from the rest of the pack of EU Protoss at the moment. Well that's just dumb, his pvp is pretty much above all eu toss but showtime right now from the looks (esp if you factor in the randomness pvp has). And while not on the level of the top 5, his improvements are massive and he has separated himself from the pack. Edit: also depends on what you mean by the pack, but at least in eu he has imo. I could be convinced of that, I haven't seen enough of him in the smaller tournaments to really tell. But he hasn't shown me that in any of the big events. Either way though, we can't seriously be comparing his "separating" from the pack to what Clem or Reynor did. That's the kind of separation I'm talking about. I don't see that from any Protoss players right now. If Maxpax is the latest we have, it's still a very tame rise compared to what those 2 did, and they are just the most recent of the bunch. Serral had a similar meteoric rise to the top as did other Zergs I can think of.
Then you remember their rise wrong,clems rise wasn't as fast as you remember but reynor i give to you he was rising pretty darn fast.
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On December 20 2021 12:52 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 12:44 WaesumNinja wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. That's a bit of a catch-22 though, isn't it? You can't deflect "there is a problem with high level play" with "there just aren't any top protoss players" because "the top protoss players don't perform as well". With what metric do you measure someone's skill/performance? Wins, right? Because there are inherent problems saying things like "Maru demolished Zest, but Zest is actually more skilled". You just couldn't tell unless he starts consistently beating him, right? We have only one indisputable metric, and everything else is just theorycrafters saying things like "he has more control groups, so he's better" and other nonsense. This argument has been shit since people started using it in the GomTvT days. Yeah, we can't name any "top performers", that's what we are talking about. No. That's a bunch of crap. I don't judge skill based on only results and anyone that does is wrong to do so. It's the same as when people treat aligulac as anything other than just a tool in a toolkit. Its rankings are not law and they never have ever been. I judge skill based on what I see. On mechanics, on timings, on strategies, on executions, on decision making while under pressure etc. etc. I judge that and then I compare it to results and I use the aggregate to judge how good someone is at the top level. Trap really is the best Protoss player in the world, WHEN he is playing well, but he's not consistent and that has more to do with his fragile nerves than anything that has to do with the race. I haven't seen any Protoss player currently playing that is not in the South Korean army at the moment that has anything close to level of skill that Trap does. Nowhere close. And Trap just is not as good as any of the elite 5 players I mentioned before. Trap isn't as good as Maru, he isn't as good as Rogue, he isn't as good as Dark. He just isn't. And there is no other Protoss player that can measure up to the level of skill that Trap has. Try and name one. You can't do it because one doesn't exist. Not right now anyway. I'm hoping that Classic or HerO (who just got BACK from the South Korean army) can get back into shape soon and I hope players like Maxpax or Goblin develop (unlikely) the way that Reynor or Clem did but aside from those things happening I just do not see any big influx of skilled Protoss players coming to the scene anytime soon. Trap is the best they have and he just isn't as good as the elite 5 are.
Maru: 1 Premier tournament win in 2021.
Dark: 1 Premier tournament win in 2021.
Rogue: 3 Premier tournament wins in 2021.
Serral: 3 Premier tournament wins in 2021.
Reynor: 2 Premier tournament wins in 2021.
And these guys are in a completely different class than Trap, who... won 5 Premier tournaments in 2021? Why? How?
For a follow up question: Do you know how to count? Why exactly do you think that arguing Protoss players can't consistently compete at high levels is any sort of evidence against Protoss bring weaker, balance-wise?
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On December 20 2021 14:05 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 13:57 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 13:52 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 13:41 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:53 Nebuchad wrote:On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:
[quote]
I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate.
I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran.
Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare.
Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others. But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010. Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent. I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent. That might be true except it's the same Zergs that keep winning and the field of Protoss players that show up just to be eaten in tournaments gets wider and wider. Like I can't even remember the latest new Zerg player to come onto the scene. Reynor was legit the last one and the pace at which he shot to the top was incredible. It was OBVIOUS that he was something special. I just don't remember the last time I saw that same thing from a Protoss player. I see loads of names I don't recognize qualifying. I see loads of green in the TL tournament brackets. I just don't see anyone separating themselves from the pack. Maxpax? But is he ready to be anything other than a small speed bump to the elite 5? I don't think so. I'd give him 25 to 1 odds at best to take a 5 game series in a major tournament off of one of them. Hell I don't even have him as a hands down favorite in PvP from the rest of the pack of EU Protoss at the moment. Well that's just dumb, his pvp is pretty much above all eu toss but showtime right now from the looks (esp if you factor in the randomness pvp has). And while not on the level of the top 5, his improvements are massive and he has separated himself from the pack. Edit: also depends on what you mean by the pack, but at least in eu he has imo. I could be convinced of that, I haven't seen enough of him in the smaller tournaments to really tell. But he hasn't shown me that in any of the big events. Either way though, we can't seriously be comparing his "separating" from the pack to what Clem or Reynor did. That's the kind of separation I'm talking about. I don't see that from any Protoss players right now. If Maxpax is the latest we have, it's still a very tame rise compared to what those 2 did, and they are just the most recent of the bunch. Serral had a similar meteoric rise to the top as did other Zergs I can think of. Then you remember their rise wrong,clems rise wasn't as fast as you remember but reynor i give to you he was rising pretty darn fast.
I shouldn't be comparing Clem to what Reynor did, that was truly special.
But Clem is at least a respectable world class, at least in one match up. Even Dark and Rogue have to give him due respect in TvZ.
So it's that kind of level I want to see from a new Protoss player. Even if it's slower than what Reynor did. I at least want to see it.
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On December 20 2021 14:06 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 12:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:44 WaesumNinja wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. That's a bit of a catch-22 though, isn't it? You can't deflect "there is a problem with high level play" with "there just aren't any top protoss players" because "the top protoss players don't perform as well". With what metric do you measure someone's skill/performance? Wins, right? Because there are inherent problems saying things like "Maru demolished Zest, but Zest is actually more skilled". You just couldn't tell unless he starts consistently beating him, right? We have only one indisputable metric, and everything else is just theorycrafters saying things like "he has more control groups, so he's better" and other nonsense. This argument has been shit since people started using it in the GomTvT days. Yeah, we can't name any "top performers", that's what we are talking about. No. That's a bunch of crap. I don't judge skill based on only results and anyone that does is wrong to do so. It's the same as when people treat aligulac as anything other than just a tool in a toolkit. Its rankings are not law and they never have ever been. I judge skill based on what I see. On mechanics, on timings, on strategies, on executions, on decision making while under pressure etc. etc. I judge that and then I compare it to results and I use the aggregate to judge how good someone is at the top level. Trap really is the best Protoss player in the world, WHEN he is playing well, but he's not consistent and that has more to do with his fragile nerves than anything that has to do with the race. I haven't seen any Protoss player currently playing that is not in the South Korean army at the moment that has anything close to level of skill that Trap does. Nowhere close. And Trap just is not as good as any of the elite 5 players I mentioned before. Trap isn't as good as Maru, he isn't as good as Rogue, he isn't as good as Dark. He just isn't. And there is no other Protoss player that can measure up to the level of skill that Trap has. Try and name one. You can't do it because one doesn't exist. Not right now anyway. I'm hoping that Classic or HerO (who just got BACK from the South Korean army) can get back into shape soon and I hope players like Maxpax or Goblin develop (unlikely) the way that Reynor or Clem did but aside from those things happening I just do not see any big influx of skilled Protoss players coming to the scene anytime soon. Trap is the best they have and he just isn't as good as the elite 5 are. Maru: 1 Premier tournament win in 2021. Dark: 1 Premier tournament win in 2021. Rogue: 3 Premier tournament wins in 2021. Serral: 3 Premier tournament wins in 2021. Reynor: 2 Premier tournament wins in 2021. And these guys are in a completely different class than Trap, who... won 5 Premier tournaments in 2021? Why? How? For a follow up question: Do you know how to count? Why exactly do you think that arguing Protoss players can't consistently compete at high levels is any sort of evidence against Protoss bring weaker, balance-wise?
Because it has ALWAYS been that way except in metas where Protoss is CLEARLY broken in some way or another.
Protoss hasn't produced many consistent players that stay relevant in several metas, and most of the ones they HAVE produced are either currently in or just coming back from the South Korean army. Trap and Zest are the only remainders.
In every meta we've seen since LotV how many EU Protoss players can you say have been consistently relevant at the top level? I can name one, Showtime. That's literally it. And he hasn't looked that hot lately.
When Terran or Zerg players are good they STAY good, regardless of what the meta looks like. It's been like that for a long time. That's a design issue with the race but it's not a balance issue because even during eras where Protoss is dominating it's a revolving door of players. The only time there's been a solid case of "1" Protoss champ has been when Rain was playing and now when Trap is pretty much all that's left.
Even if Trap won more than any other Protoss this year. I still don't say he's anywhere on the level of the elite 5. And I think you'd have a hard time convincing most dedicated SC2 fans that he is.
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On December 20 2021 14:08 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 14:05 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:57 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 13:52 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 13:41 darklycid wrote:On December 20 2021 13:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:53 Nebuchad wrote:On December 20 2021 12:45 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:36 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Protoss obviously has MANY design problems, I've mentioned the big one that I haven't shut up about since 2010 but there are others.
But that's not to say that Protoss as a race is WEAK by any means in the current meta because it's not. Protoss dominates the ladder in EU and NA and is even with Terran in Korea when Terran has ruled Korea in virtually every meta since 2010.
Protoss is doing just fine. They aren't showing results because the pool of TOP level talent for Protoss is weaker than it ever has been before and those 5 players plus a little bit of Cure thrown in are the ones winning literally everything right now. There is no Protoss on the level of those elite 5 right now. There just isn't. No definitely not, like I said I think you're at least half right here. I know that the Protoss players here refuse to take this as anything other then anecdotal evidence but when you really ask yourself, "Whos the top 3 Protoss in the world?" and stack them against the top 3 Zerg in the world the talent disparity seems pretty apparent. I've been having the reverse conversation but this is also not something you can state lol. It could also be that the reason why the top 3 protoss looks way worse than the top 3 zerg is because zerg is far superior to protoss and has been for a while, so they win more often and you associate that with talent. That might be true except it's the same Zergs that keep winning and the field of Protoss players that show up just to be eaten in tournaments gets wider and wider. Like I can't even remember the latest new Zerg player to come onto the scene. Reynor was legit the last one and the pace at which he shot to the top was incredible. It was OBVIOUS that he was something special. I just don't remember the last time I saw that same thing from a Protoss player. I see loads of names I don't recognize qualifying. I see loads of green in the TL tournament brackets. I just don't see anyone separating themselves from the pack. Maxpax? But is he ready to be anything other than a small speed bump to the elite 5? I don't think so. I'd give him 25 to 1 odds at best to take a 5 game series in a major tournament off of one of them. Hell I don't even have him as a hands down favorite in PvP from the rest of the pack of EU Protoss at the moment. Well that's just dumb, his pvp is pretty much above all eu toss but showtime right now from the looks (esp if you factor in the randomness pvp has). And while not on the level of the top 5, his improvements are massive and he has separated himself from the pack. Edit: also depends on what you mean by the pack, but at least in eu he has imo. I could be convinced of that, I haven't seen enough of him in the smaller tournaments to really tell. But he hasn't shown me that in any of the big events. Either way though, we can't seriously be comparing his "separating" from the pack to what Clem or Reynor did. That's the kind of separation I'm talking about. I don't see that from any Protoss players right now. If Maxpax is the latest we have, it's still a very tame rise compared to what those 2 did, and they are just the most recent of the bunch. Serral had a similar meteoric rise to the top as did other Zergs I can think of. Then you remember their rise wrong,clems rise wasn't as fast as you remember but reynor i give to you he was rising pretty darn fast. I shouldn't be comparing Clem to what Reynor did, that was truly special. But Clem is at least a respectable world class, at least in one match up. Even Dark and Rogue have to give him due respect in TvZ. So it's that kind of level I want to see from a new Protoss player. Even if it's slower than what Reynor did. I at least want to see it.
That is a bit too much to expect already the reynor level, i think maxpax looks like clem did around 2018 or so before he started to peak so imo he could vbery well become similar if he continues tro improve like he did (and i say that while not liking maxpax playstyle too much).
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 20 2021 12:44 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. That's a bit of a catch-22 though, isn't it? You can't deflect "there is a problem with high level play" with "there just aren't any top protoss players" because "the top protoss players don't perform as well". With what metric do you measure someone's skill/performance? Wins, right? Because there are inherent problems saying things like "Maru demolished Zest, but Zest is actually more skilled". You just couldn't tell unless he starts consistently beating him, right? We have only one indisputable metric, and everything else is just theorycrafters saying things like "he has more control groups, so he's better" and other nonsense. This argument has been shit since people started using it in the GomTvT days. Yeah, we can't name any "top performers", that's what we are talking about.
let me introduce you to Clasic, sOs and herO. All 3 players have what many call a killer mentality. Both Classic and herO showed on multiple occassions they have the top mechanics and they can win. OTOH both Stats and Trap showed on multiple occasions they have top notch mechanics but they cannot win anything. Let's call it soO effect. soO had one of the best mechanics Zerg could have had, especially in HOTS. Yet he didn't win anything, how so? Was that balance? Or was that something else?
Another great killer was Parting or MC.
Is Protoss the weaker race at the top level? Maybe? I honestly cannot tell, Protoss certainly is designed awfully. Does Protoss have a proper consistent championship material? At this moment - nope. At least not until herO and Classic get to their top level(and considering herO wasn't the top pre-military it's more a hopeful wish).
BUT YOU FORGOT ZEST!@#!!! Zest used to be a consistent Protoss. Nowadays he's more of a random result generator than anything else. And if nothing else Zest macro makes him impossible to put in the category of the top notch mechanical players anyway.
And again, both Stats and Trap had many opportunities to win shit and they rarely did. It's not that they haven't, it's the amount of 2nd places...
BUT BO7 AND PROTOSS!@#!!! Remember that in Korea most semis are BO7 and all the 2nd places finishing Protoss had to win a BO7 to get to the losing BO7 in the finals.
Edt> FYI I think zerg needs a nerf as both Terran and Protoss is weaker than the Zerg 
On December 20 2021 14:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 14:06 QOGQOG wrote:On December 20 2021 12:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:44 WaesumNinja wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. That's a bit of a catch-22 though, isn't it? You can't deflect "there is a problem with high level play" with "there just aren't any top protoss players" because "the top protoss players don't perform as well". With what metric do you measure someone's skill/performance? Wins, right? Because there are inherent problems saying things like "Maru demolished Zest, but Zest is actually more skilled". You just couldn't tell unless he starts consistently beating him, right? We have only one indisputable metric, and everything else is just theorycrafters saying things like "he has more control groups, so he's better" and other nonsense. This argument has been shit since people started using it in the GomTvT days. Yeah, we can't name any "top performers", that's what we are talking about. No. That's a bunch of crap. I don't judge skill based on only results and anyone that does is wrong to do so. It's the same as when people treat aligulac as anything other than just a tool in a toolkit. Its rankings are not law and they never have ever been. I judge skill based on what I see. On mechanics, on timings, on strategies, on executions, on decision making while under pressure etc. etc. I judge that and then I compare it to results and I use the aggregate to judge how good someone is at the top level. Trap really is the best Protoss player in the world, WHEN he is playing well, but he's not consistent and that has more to do with his fragile nerves than anything that has to do with the race. I haven't seen any Protoss player currently playing that is not in the South Korean army at the moment that has anything close to level of skill that Trap does. Nowhere close. And Trap just is not as good as any of the elite 5 players I mentioned before. Trap isn't as good as Maru, he isn't as good as Rogue, he isn't as good as Dark. He just isn't. And there is no other Protoss player that can measure up to the level of skill that Trap has. Try and name one. You can't do it because one doesn't exist. Not right now anyway. I'm hoping that Classic or HerO (who just got BACK from the South Korean army) can get back into shape soon and I hope players like Maxpax or Goblin develop (unlikely) the way that Reynor or Clem did but aside from those things happening I just do not see any big influx of skilled Protoss players coming to the scene anytime soon. Trap is the best they have and he just isn't as good as the elite 5 are. Maru: 1 Premier tournament win in 2021. Dark: 1 Premier tournament win in 2021. Rogue: 3 Premier tournament wins in 2021. Serral: 3 Premier tournament wins in 2021. Reynor: 2 Premier tournament wins in 2021. And these guys are in a completely different class than Trap, who... won 5 Premier tournaments in 2021? Why? How? For a follow up question: Do you know how to count? Why exactly do you think that arguing Protoss players can't consistently compete at high levels is any sort of evidence against Protoss bring weaker, balance-wise? Because it has ALWAYS been that way except in metas where Protoss is CLEARLY broken in some way or another. Protoss hasn't produced many consistent players that stay relevant in several metas, and most of the ones they HAVE produced are either currently in or just coming back from the South Korean army. Trap and Zest are the only remainders. In every meta we've seen since LotV how many EU Protoss players can you say have been consistently relevant at the top level? I can name one, Showtime. That's literally it. And he hasn't looked that hot lately. When Terran or Zerg players are good they STAY good, regardless of what the meta looks like. It's been like that for a long time. That's a design issue with the race but it's not a balance issue because even during eras where Protoss is dominating it's a revolving door of players. The only time there's been a solid case of "1" Protoss champ has been when Rain was playing and now when Trap is pretty much all that's left. Even if Trap won more than any other Protoss this year. I still don't say he's anywhere on the level of the elite 5. And I think you'd have a hard time convincing most dedicated SC2 fans that he is.
OK, this is nonsense.
MC was good throughout the whole WOL, multiple metas, BLinfestor included.
But let's move to more current players.
Classic, Stats, herO, the old Zest, hots sOs. Like I get the shitting over Protoss but forgetting about Stats and Classic is just wrong on so many levels...
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On December 20 2021 14:06 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 12:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 12:44 WaesumNinja wrote:On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have. That's a bit of a catch-22 though, isn't it? You can't deflect "there is a problem with high level play" with "there just aren't any top protoss players" because "the top protoss players don't perform as well". With what metric do you measure someone's skill/performance? Wins, right? Because there are inherent problems saying things like "Maru demolished Zest, but Zest is actually more skilled". You just couldn't tell unless he starts consistently beating him, right? We have only one indisputable metric, and everything else is just theorycrafters saying things like "he has more control groups, so he's better" and other nonsense. This argument has been shit since people started using it in the GomTvT days. Yeah, we can't name any "top performers", that's what we are talking about. No. That's a bunch of crap. I don't judge skill based on only results and anyone that does is wrong to do so. It's the same as when people treat aligulac as anything other than just a tool in a toolkit. Its rankings are not law and they never have ever been. I judge skill based on what I see. On mechanics, on timings, on strategies, on executions, on decision making while under pressure etc. etc. I judge that and then I compare it to results and I use the aggregate to judge how good someone is at the top level. Trap really is the best Protoss player in the world, WHEN he is playing well, but he's not consistent and that has more to do with his fragile nerves than anything that has to do with the race. I haven't seen any Protoss player currently playing that is not in the South Korean army at the moment that has anything close to level of skill that Trap does. Nowhere close. And Trap just is not as good as any of the elite 5 players I mentioned before. Trap isn't as good as Maru, he isn't as good as Rogue, he isn't as good as Dark. He just isn't. And there is no other Protoss player that can measure up to the level of skill that Trap has. Try and name one. You can't do it because one doesn't exist. Not right now anyway. I'm hoping that Classic or HerO (who just got BACK from the South Korean army) can get back into shape soon and I hope players like Maxpax or Goblin develop (unlikely) the way that Reynor or Clem did but aside from those things happening I just do not see any big influx of skilled Protoss players coming to the scene anytime soon. Trap is the best they have and he just isn't as good as the elite 5 are. Maru: 1 Premier tournament win in 2021. Dark: 1 Premier tournament win in 2021. Rogue: 3 Premier tournament wins in 2021. Serral: 3 Premier tournament wins in 2021. Reynor: 2 Premier tournament wins in 2021. And these guys are in a completely different class than Trap, who... won 5 Premier tournaments in 2021? Why? How? For a follow up question: Do you know how to count? Why exactly do you think that arguing Protoss players can't consistently compete at high levels is any sort of evidence against Protoss bring weaker, balance-wise?
About Trap, its clearly a matter of consistency. I mean, what was the difference between when he won those Premiere tournament and when he get eliminated early in other tournaments, other than himself? Trap plays a style of "Modern Protoss" that rely heavily on his early game micro with the Stargate opening. He needs to get his early Oracle/Phoenix build to deal worker damage and snowball that into a win. And when it doesnt work, either from Trap making mistake or his opponent play clean defense, Trap just couldnt get the advantage he wanted and eventually die out every time.
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On December 20 2021 18:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Classic, Stats, herO, the old Zest, hots sOs. Like I get the shitting over Protoss but forgetting about Stats and Classic is just wrong on so many levels...
Reread my post again please.
Stats is in the military. Classic just got back, herO just back, Zest I mentioned already, and sOs is hardly what I think ANYONE in their right mind would call consistent. He's a tremendous player with an awesome legacy but he won that off of being very streaky and with a playstyle that speaks for itself. It's not the kind of consistent success we've seen from players of the other two races.
You also forgot Parting who ALSO is in the military btw.
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In HotS Protoss won the most championships and Zerg was the Kong race (soO, Jaedong, ByuL).
With LotV that flipped and the top Zergs (yeah I know, different ones) suddenly became stone cold killers and the top Protoss players (even champions like Zest, sOs and Classic) suddenly turned from champions to 2nd place finishers with fragile nerves.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 20 2021 19:48 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 18:47 deacon.frost wrote:
Classic, Stats, herO, the old Zest, hots sOs. Like I get the shitting over Protoss but forgetting about Stats and Classic is just wrong on so many levels... Reread my post again please. Stats is in the military. Classic just got back, herO just back, Zest I mentioned already, and sOs is hardly what I think ANYONE in their right mind would call consistent. He's a tremendous player with an awesome legacy but he won that off of being very streaky and with a playstyle that speaks for itself. It's not the kind of consistent success we've seen from players of the other two races. You also forgot Parting who ALSO is in the military btw.
Asking to rereading your post when you missed me writing about hots sOs who was pretty consistent for the style he played.
On December 20 2021 21:15 Charoisaur wrote:
In HotS Protoss won the most championships and Zerg was the Kong race (soO, Jaedong, ByuL).
With LotV that flipped and the top Zergs (yeah I know, different ones) suddenly became stone cold killers and the top Protoss players (even champions like Zest, sOs and Classic) suddenly turned from champions to 2nd place finishers with fragile nerves.
the case of sOs is ezpz to explain. sOs was mindgaming masterming with rather bad mechanics(I mean for the top championship level). LOTV increased the importance of mechanics and the mastermind wasn't enough, so the more the game was thought out the more sOs has fallen. Rewatch some of his game, he wasn't that good mechanically. LOTV was basically created as anti-sOs.
The case of Zest is the same. Zest plays this game in a turn based style. He has his macro turns and then his micro turns. So again - the lack of mechanics means the lack of Zest stability.
Classic was a top notch contender for every title until his military departure, I don't think anyone menioned him as the nervous one. The nervous ones are usually Trap and Stats(and nobody said they cannot win, it's just they need many tries)
Edit>
Also the fun part is that in hots we knew several things
* there will be regural patches
* there's one more expansion to go
* there will be frequent map updates
We can't rely on any of these points. The map updates are still a thing but I wouldn't call them frequent or reliable 
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