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Northern Ireland26092 Posts
Is 2350 a good score? I’m not from the States so I’m not super familiar what scores correlate with what, but from what I’m reading here it seems 2350 indicates an inability to read and form responses to what other people are actually saying.
Do SATs measure obnoxiousness?
@drFilip, 100%, I don’t understand why Trap is tagged as inconsistent, or what would possibly be considered consistent given the last few years he’s put together.
Doesn’t mean he’s the best necessarily, I can’t think of anyone besides Serral who’s been as consistent in maintaining a certain level over this 3 year span.
Before this sparks any ‘but x are better than Trap and Serral’ that’s not what I said.
In terms of relative level of ability and coming close to hitting it most times is what I’m talking about. I’d put Heromarine as a similarly very consistent player
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Northern Ireland26092 Posts
On December 22 2021 07:15 neveranexit wrote:
Bring back Mothership Core, make 3rd bases with chokes, eliminate negative space behind main bases. The balance is so easy. As a BW player, I'm so sick of every SC2 map feeling the exact same for 5 years
BW map makers solved all these problems back in 2007
No it isn’t some trivial thing
It’s a different game, there are lessons to be learned from how maps are designed and rolled out.
If SC2 has a problem it’s that maps are samey, which is a consequence of the general mapmaking philosophy that every map has to be balanced across all the interracial matchups.
In this regard SC2 map makers have done a rather good job, albeit it’s very monotonous.
BW has had the benefit of third party ladders and integrating all sorts of interesting maps, SC2 has one ladder where outside of custom practices I would assume 99%+ of competitively minded players play their games.
If mapmakers got their shackles loosened from trying to design a standard SC2 map that attempts to be balanced in all matchups, I’m certain we’d see some great maps and it would freshen things up.
I’d like to see what a specialist PvZ/TvZ/TvP map would look like but as of now there’s no actual pipeline to get such a project much playtime with a ladder that’s under lock and key by Blizz
In general I’m pretty sure, may be corrected by someone more knowledgable, SC2 maps are better balanced across matchups than in either BW or WC3. The flip side of that coin is maps being extremely similar which breeds fatigue
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On December 22 2021 07:21 WombaT wrote:
Is 2350 a good score? I’m not from the States so I’m not super familiar what scores correlate with what, but from what I’m reading here it seems 2350 indicates an inability to read and form responses to what other people are actually saying.
Do SATs measure obnoxiousness?
@drFilip, 100%, I don’t understand why Trap is tagged as inconsistent, or what would possibly be considered consistent given the last few years he’s put together.
Doesn’t mean he’s the best necessarily, I can’t think of anyone besides Serral who’s been as consistent in maintaining a certain level over this 3 year span.
Before this sparks any ‘but x are better than Trap and Serral’ that’s not what I said.
In terms of relative level of ability and coming close to hitting it most times is what I’m talking about. I’d put Heromarine as a similarly very consistent player
In terms of results Trap is surely consistent but he also sometimes has series where he just can't deliver and makes a lot of unforced errors. Whether that's because of his race or not I don't know, but the other top players don't really have that.
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On December 22 2021 09:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 07:21 WombaT wrote:
Is 2350 a good score? I’m not from the States so I’m not super familiar what scores correlate with what, but from what I’m reading here it seems 2350 indicates an inability to read and form responses to what other people are actually saying.
Do SATs measure obnoxiousness?
@drFilip, 100%, I don’t understand why Trap is tagged as inconsistent, or what would possibly be considered consistent given the last few years he’s put together.
Doesn’t mean he’s the best necessarily, I can’t think of anyone besides Serral who’s been as consistent in maintaining a certain level over this 3 year span.
Before this sparks any ‘but x are better than Trap and Serral’ that’s not what I said.
In terms of relative level of ability and coming close to hitting it most times is what I’m talking about. I’d put Heromarine as a similarly very consistent player In terms of results Trap is surely consistent but he also sometimes has series where he just can't deliver and makes a lot of unforced errors. Whether that's because of his race or not I don't know, but the other top players don't really have that.
I'd be a little more cautious on that, you may be right but it's also true that protoss errors are often much easier to spot than terran or zerg errors.
I watched the ESL cup finals where Maxpax 3-0ed Reynor recently, it was commented by Lambo on Rotti's stream, and during the airtoss game Lambo pointed out that at one point Reynor took a very bad fight at his triangle base that ultimately allowed Maxpax to win this game. I could not tell you what was bad about that fight (Lambo didn't specify). I also watched it on o'gaming's stream out of curiosity and they didn't make any relevant comments about the fight outside of play by play.
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Northern Ireland26092 Posts
On December 22 2021 09:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 07:21 WombaT wrote:
Is 2350 a good score? I’m not from the States so I’m not super familiar what scores correlate with what, but from what I’m reading here it seems 2350 indicates an inability to read and form responses to what other people are actually saying.
Do SATs measure obnoxiousness?
@drFilip, 100%, I don’t understand why Trap is tagged as inconsistent, or what would possibly be considered consistent given the last few years he’s put together.
Doesn’t mean he’s the best necessarily, I can’t think of anyone besides Serral who’s been as consistent in maintaining a certain level over this 3 year span.
Before this sparks any ‘but x are better than Trap and Serral’ that’s not what I said.
In terms of relative level of ability and coming close to hitting it most times is what I’m talking about. I’d put Heromarine as a similarly very consistent player In terms of results Trap is surely consistent but he also sometimes has series where he just can't deliver and makes a lot of unforced errors. Whether that's because of his race or not I don't know, but the other top players don't really have that.
Maru and Rogue winning a lot of tier 2 events lately on top of their feats in the big leagues kind of masks that historically they’ve frequently bombed out early in smaller tournies, or even had the odd flub in Code S
They’ve (recently) added relentless consistency, but prior to that they’ve been characterised as much by baffling lows as soaring highs, especially Rogue
Trap has, iirc by a few seasons the record for consecutive GSL playoffs, he’s won what 5 tournaments this year, he’s made 3 GSL finals
His first two GSL finals I think he plays them 10 times over and doesn’t win, Dark and Rogue are great players and they had a litany of tools in that meta. I think Trap played considerably better in some of those games than his third loss, in a less brutal meta.
Last Katowice was a big failure and he didn’t show up against Cure last GSL, with a non-Zerg bracket that was a great opportunity for him. Aside from that I can’t recall many instances of Trap just failing in a tournament, and we’re talking a few years
Because he’s Protoss people maybe don’t recognise it/respect it, I don’t know. He’s stylistically a lot like Maru, especially his PvT. He lives on the razor’s edge and pulling off miracles with judgement and crazy execution. He gets an edge by really pushing it, and if he executes well no non-Zerg can live with it. Like Maru he can accomplish miracles with weird, technical to control unit sets and just pounce when he scents blood.
I’ve seen him deflect an attack and then move out on the map with a handful of gateway units, a prism and one immortal with my head in my hands going ‘this is stupid’ with 100% knows be of the game state only for him to encounter the bio squad and, somehow kill it.
In PvZ I don’t think a Protoss can really prosper in the same way. There’s a relatively even eco/supply in early to mid game PvT and winning an early/midgame technical skirmish can snowball, which is where Trap gets a lot of joy.
You don’t get that so much in PvZ, it’s commitment into pressure from a numbers deficit, or playing for the late game. Or resolutely defending
Speaking broad brush but you get me, Trap gets a lot of wins from turning an even game into a favoured game with solid defence and midgame small skirmishes and riding that advantage out. It’s really kind of hard to skirmish a Zerg into a real deficit in which you can quickly kill them.
This isn’t to say PvZ is unwinnable or crazy unfair, I don’t think it suits Trap’s primarily skillset even though he has great scalps to his name
Maru’s chops, or Clem’s chops in the same domain of snowballing advantages via risk and execution absolutely does transfer over to TvZ because you can consistently trade well and wear them down in a way Protoss cannot do
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On December 22 2021 08:09 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 07:15 neveranexit wrote:
Bring back Mothership Core, make 3rd bases with chokes, eliminate negative space behind main bases. The balance is so easy. As a BW player, I'm so sick of every SC2 map feeling the exact same for 5 years
BW map makers solved all these problems back in 2007 No it isn’t some trivial thing It’s a different game, there are lessons to be learned from how maps are designed and rolled out. If SC2 has a problem it’s that maps are samey, which is a consequence of the general mapmaking philosophy that every map has to be balanced across all the interracial matchups. In this regard SC2 map makers have done a rather good job, albeit it’s very monotonous. BW has had the benefit of third party ladders and integrating all sorts of interesting maps, SC2 has one ladder where outside of custom practices I would assume 99%+ of competitively minded players play their games. If mapmakers got their shackles loosened from trying to design a standard SC2 map that attempts to be balanced in all matchups, I’m certain we’d see some great maps and it would freshen things up. I’d like to see what a specialist PvZ/TvZ/TvP map would look like but as of now there’s no actual pipeline to get such a project much playtime with a ladder that’s under lock and key by Blizz In general I’m pretty sure, may be corrected by someone more knowledgable, SC2 maps are better balanced across matchups than in either BW or WC3. The flip side of that coin is maps being extremely similar which breeds fatigue
but the maps are not balanced though. that's the problem. all SC2 maps are Z/T favored. It's really that simple imo. If you elevate the 3rd base location with a ramp or create a wall with a tight choke entering the 3rd base, Protoss winrates would increase immediately. Similar situation with the negative space designed for widow mine drops/liberators.
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Northern Ireland26092 Posts
On December 22 2021 11:16 neveranexit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 08:09 WombaT wrote:On December 22 2021 07:15 neveranexit wrote:
Bring back Mothership Core, make 3rd bases with chokes, eliminate negative space behind main bases. The balance is so easy. As a BW player, I'm so sick of every SC2 map feeling the exact same for 5 years
BW map makers solved all these problems back in 2007 No it isn’t some trivial thing It’s a different game, there are lessons to be learned from how maps are designed and rolled out. If SC2 has a problem it’s that maps are samey, which is a consequence of the general mapmaking philosophy that every map has to be balanced across all the interracial matchups. In this regard SC2 map makers have done a rather good job, albeit it’s very monotonous. BW has had the benefit of third party ladders and integrating all sorts of interesting maps, SC2 has one ladder where outside of custom practices I would assume 99%+ of competitively minded players play their games. If mapmakers got their shackles loosened from trying to design a standard SC2 map that attempts to be balanced in all matchups, I’m certain we’d see some great maps and it would freshen things up. I’d like to see what a specialist PvZ/TvZ/TvP map would look like but as of now there’s no actual pipeline to get such a project much playtime with a ladder that’s under lock and key by Blizz In general I’m pretty sure, may be corrected by someone more knowledgable, SC2 maps are better balanced across matchups than in either BW or WC3. The flip side of that coin is maps being extremely similar which breeds fatigue but the maps are not balanced though. that's the problem. all SC2 maps are Z/T favored. It's really that simple imo. If you elevate the 3rd base location with a ramp or create a wall with a tight choke entering the 3rd base, Protoss winrates would increase immediately. Similar situation with the negative space designed for widow mine drops/liberators.
Not perfectly they’re pretty good, across the board you’re talking 2-3% differentials, for the most part. A really, really race favoured map in a particular matchup is hitting like, 55% tops
A third base choke may have some benefits for Protoss, it’s not all good. I could see it being purely beneficial PvZ, in PvT depending on where it’s located and whatnot a third base choke sounds a nice invitation to nasty Terran tank timings being better.
How do you clear a tank push to the third, which is common enough and effective enough even with a third that’s relatively open now, if your Zealots are getting funnelled into a choke it’s trickier
Likewise dead air space is actually 100% good for Protoss in PvZ who are going for committed oracle openers, also decent for void ray pokes, also gives extra space for prisms to manoeuvre
In PvZ it’s a negative against mutas but generally you either have picked it and have counter-measures in place, or you don’t, so the dead space is not a huge factor
You say it’s simple but IMO you’re neglecting a ton of stuff
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On December 22 2021 11:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 11:16 neveranexit wrote:On December 22 2021 08:09 WombaT wrote:On December 22 2021 07:15 neveranexit wrote:
Bring back Mothership Core, make 3rd bases with chokes, eliminate negative space behind main bases. The balance is so easy. As a BW player, I'm so sick of every SC2 map feeling the exact same for 5 years
BW map makers solved all these problems back in 2007 No it isn’t some trivial thing It’s a different game, there are lessons to be learned from how maps are designed and rolled out. If SC2 has a problem it’s that maps are samey, which is a consequence of the general mapmaking philosophy that every map has to be balanced across all the interracial matchups. In this regard SC2 map makers have done a rather good job, albeit it’s very monotonous. BW has had the benefit of third party ladders and integrating all sorts of interesting maps, SC2 has one ladder where outside of custom practices I would assume 99%+ of competitively minded players play their games. If mapmakers got their shackles loosened from trying to design a standard SC2 map that attempts to be balanced in all matchups, I’m certain we’d see some great maps and it would freshen things up. I’d like to see what a specialist PvZ/TvZ/TvP map would look like but as of now there’s no actual pipeline to get such a project much playtime with a ladder that’s under lock and key by Blizz In general I’m pretty sure, may be corrected by someone more knowledgable, SC2 maps are better balanced across matchups than in either BW or WC3. The flip side of that coin is maps being extremely similar which breeds fatigue but the maps are not balanced though. that's the problem. all SC2 maps are Z/T favored. It's really that simple imo. If you elevate the 3rd base location with a ramp or create a wall with a tight choke entering the 3rd base, Protoss winrates would increase immediately. Similar situation with the negative space designed for widow mine drops/liberators. Not perfectly they’re pretty good, across the board you’re talking 2-3% differentials, for the most part. A really, really race favoured map in a particular matchup is hitting like, 55% tops A third base choke may have some benefits for Protoss, it’s not all good. I could see it being purely beneficial PvZ, in PvT depending on where it’s located and whatnot a third base choke sounds a nice invitation to nasty Terran tank timings being better. How do you clear a tank push to the third, which is common enough and effective enough even with a third that’s relatively open now, if your Zealots are getting funnelled into a choke it’s trickier Likewise dead air space is actually 100% good for Protoss in PvZ who are going for committed oracle openers, also decent for void ray pokes, also gives extra space for prisms to manoeuvre In PvZ it’s a negative against mutas but generally you either have picked it and have counter-measures in place, or you don’t, so the dead space is not a huge factor You say it’s simple but IMO you’re neglecting a ton of stuff
Completely agree with this, I'm not sold on this, "maps are bad for Protoss" theory at all. I would need to see proof in the numbers before I got on board with that.
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Northern Ireland26092 Posts
On December 22 2021 11:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 11:40 WombaT wrote:On December 22 2021 11:16 neveranexit wrote:On December 22 2021 08:09 WombaT wrote:On December 22 2021 07:15 neveranexit wrote:
Bring back Mothership Core, make 3rd bases with chokes, eliminate negative space behind main bases. The balance is so easy. As a BW player, I'm so sick of every SC2 map feeling the exact same for 5 years
BW map makers solved all these problems back in 2007 No it isn’t some trivial thing It’s a different game, there are lessons to be learned from how maps are designed and rolled out. If SC2 has a problem it’s that maps are samey, which is a consequence of the general mapmaking philosophy that every map has to be balanced across all the interracial matchups. In this regard SC2 map makers have done a rather good job, albeit it’s very monotonous. BW has had the benefit of third party ladders and integrating all sorts of interesting maps, SC2 has one ladder where outside of custom practices I would assume 99%+ of competitively minded players play their games. If mapmakers got their shackles loosened from trying to design a standard SC2 map that attempts to be balanced in all matchups, I’m certain we’d see some great maps and it would freshen things up. I’d like to see what a specialist PvZ/TvZ/TvP map would look like but as of now there’s no actual pipeline to get such a project much playtime with a ladder that’s under lock and key by Blizz In general I’m pretty sure, may be corrected by someone more knowledgable, SC2 maps are better balanced across matchups than in either BW or WC3. The flip side of that coin is maps being extremely similar which breeds fatigue but the maps are not balanced though. that's the problem. all SC2 maps are Z/T favored. It's really that simple imo. If you elevate the 3rd base location with a ramp or create a wall with a tight choke entering the 3rd base, Protoss winrates would increase immediately. Similar situation with the negative space designed for widow mine drops/liberators. Not perfectly they’re pretty good, across the board you’re talking 2-3% differentials, for the most part. A really, really race favoured map in a particular matchup is hitting like, 55% tops A third base choke may have some benefits for Protoss, it’s not all good. I could see it being purely beneficial PvZ, in PvT depending on where it’s located and whatnot a third base choke sounds a nice invitation to nasty Terran tank timings being better. How do you clear a tank push to the third, which is common enough and effective enough even with a third that’s relatively open now, if your Zealots are getting funnelled into a choke it’s trickier Likewise dead air space is actually 100% good for Protoss in PvZ who are going for committed oracle openers, also decent for void ray pokes, also gives extra space for prisms to manoeuvre In PvZ it’s a negative against mutas but generally you either have picked it and have counter-measures in place, or you don’t, so the dead space is not a huge factor You say it’s simple but IMO you’re neglecting a ton of stuff Completely agree with this, I'm not sold on this, "maps are bad for Protoss" theory at all. I would need to see proof in the numbers before I got on board with that.
I’ve said that I would like map pools that have specific maps for matchups, many times.
I’m honestly not sure what a good PvZ map even looks like. Outside of exploitable cannon/battery positions.
The WoL/HoTS rule of thumb was chokes, or at least tight enough areas that forcefields can carve up further, with ravagers that’s way less of a factor
Big maps = Zerg just explodes with expansions and creep. Small maps don’t really favour Protoss either. Scouting what they’re doing is easier and for all the flaws of warp gate and how it impacts other things, shrinking the map doesn’t really affect Protoss pushing in the same way as the other two races. Their pushes can hit quicker on smaller maps, Protoss it’s reasonably similar
I think a good PvZ map would consist of various paths, the quicker paths being relatively large, open areas and begging for a Zerg surround, and the slower paths would be tighter, travel distance being unnecessarily elongated
As Protoss is on something of a timer on hitting Zergs at certain points, you could create an interesting dynamic between pushing quickly and risking, or safely and a bit slower
You could also introduce some defensive/retreat potential if you could navigate back after seeing your push won’t work through Protoss favoured terrain
A map with this architecture though would be basically broken in PvT, if you’re forcing bio through all sorts of chokes or tight areas against AoE
Hence my advocacy for more experimentation and matchup specific maps, it opens a lot of scope for experimentation
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On December 22 2021 10:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 09:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 22 2021 07:21 WombaT wrote:
Is 2350 a good score? I’m not from the States so I’m not super familiar what scores correlate with what, but from what I’m reading here it seems 2350 indicates an inability to read and form responses to what other people are actually saying.
Do SATs measure obnoxiousness?
@drFilip, 100%, I don’t understand why Trap is tagged as inconsistent, or what would possibly be considered consistent given the last few years he’s put together.
Doesn’t mean he’s the best necessarily, I can’t think of anyone besides Serral who’s been as consistent in maintaining a certain level over this 3 year span.
Before this sparks any ‘but x are better than Trap and Serral’ that’s not what I said.
In terms of relative level of ability and coming close to hitting it most times is what I’m talking about. I’d put Heromarine as a similarly very consistent player In terms of results Trap is surely consistent but he also sometimes has series where he just can't deliver and makes a lot of unforced errors. Whether that's because of his race or not I don't know, but the other top players don't really have that. Maru and Rogue winning a lot of tier 2 events lately on top of their feats in the big leagues kind of masks that historically they’ve frequently bombed out early in smaller tournies, or even had the odd flub in Code S They’ve (recently) added relentless consistency, but prior to that they’ve been characterised as much by baffling lows as soaring highs, especially Rogue Trap has, iirc by a few seasons the record for consecutive GSL playoffs, he’s won what 5 tournaments this year, he’s made 3 GSL finals His first two GSL finals I think he plays them 10 times over and doesn’t win, Dark and Rogue are great players and they had a litany of tools in that meta. I think Trap played considerably better in some of those games than his third loss, in a less brutal meta. Last Katowice was a big failure and he didn’t show up against Cure last GSL, with a non-Zerg bracket that was a great opportunity for him. Aside from that I can’t recall many instances of Trap just failing in a tournament, and we’re talking a few years Because he’s Protoss people maybe don’t recognise it/respect it, I don’t know. He’s stylistically a lot like Maru, especially his PvT. He lives on the razor’s edge and pulling off miracles with judgement and crazy execution. He gets an edge by really pushing it, and if he executes well no non-Zerg can live with it. Like Maru he can accomplish miracles with weird, technical to control unit sets and just pounce when he scents blood. I’ve seen him deflect an attack and then move out on the map with a handful of gateway units, a prism and one immortal with my head in my hands going ‘this is stupid’ with 100% knows be of the game state only for him to encounter the bio squad and, somehow kill it. In PvZ I don’t think a Protoss can really prosper in the same way. There’s a relatively even eco/supply in early to mid game PvT and winning an early/midgame technical skirmish can snowball, which is where Trap gets a lot of joy. You don’t get that so much in PvZ, it’s commitment into pressure from a numbers deficit, or playing for the late game. Or resolutely defending Speaking broad brush but you get me, Trap gets a lot of wins from turning an even game into a favoured game with solid defence and midgame small skirmishes and riding that advantage out. It’s really kind of hard to skirmish a Zerg into a real deficit in which you can quickly kill them. This isn’t to say PvZ is unwinnable or crazy unfair, I don’t think it suits Trap’s primarily skillset even though he has great scalps to his name Maru’s chops, or Clem’s chops in the same domain of snowballing advantages via risk and execution absolutely does transfer over to TvZ because you can consistently trade well and wear them down in a way Protoss cannot do
Maybe you're right and I'm overexaggerating his inconsistency but that's just what sticks out to me when I think of him. Stats and Classic didn't really have such poor performances when they were the best Protoss players. You can also add his latest GSL finals vs Dark to the series where he didn't deliver (overcommited for no reason in one game, lost vs a Nydus he had all the tools to defend and knew it was coming because he missed a changeling) and in TSL 6 he also lost in the first round vs Ragnarok.
yeah and for Rogue you're right that he's incosistent but he delivered when it really counted so it seemed to be more of a motivational thing than a mental thing and Maru only really had those poor performances in foreign tournaments because he struggles with adapting to jetlag/travelling
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Northern Ireland26092 Posts
On December 22 2021 18:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 10:39 WombaT wrote:On December 22 2021 09:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 22 2021 07:21 WombaT wrote:
Is 2350 a good score? I’m not from the States so I’m not super familiar what scores correlate with what, but from what I’m reading here it seems 2350 indicates an inability to read and form responses to what other people are actually saying.
Do SATs measure obnoxiousness?
@drFilip, 100%, I don’t understand why Trap is tagged as inconsistent, or what would possibly be considered consistent given the last few years he’s put together.
Doesn’t mean he’s the best necessarily, I can’t think of anyone besides Serral who’s been as consistent in maintaining a certain level over this 3 year span.
Before this sparks any ‘but x are better than Trap and Serral’ that’s not what I said.
In terms of relative level of ability and coming close to hitting it most times is what I’m talking about. I’d put Heromarine as a similarly very consistent player In terms of results Trap is surely consistent but he also sometimes has series where he just can't deliver and makes a lot of unforced errors. Whether that's because of his race or not I don't know, but the other top players don't really have that. Maru and Rogue winning a lot of tier 2 events lately on top of their feats in the big leagues kind of masks that historically they’ve frequently bombed out early in smaller tournies, or even had the odd flub in Code S They’ve (recently) added relentless consistency, but prior to that they’ve been characterised as much by baffling lows as soaring highs, especially Rogue Trap has, iirc by a few seasons the record for consecutive GSL playoffs, he’s won what 5 tournaments this year, he’s made 3 GSL finals His first two GSL finals I think he plays them 10 times over and doesn’t win, Dark and Rogue are great players and they had a litany of tools in that meta. I think Trap played considerably better in some of those games than his third loss, in a less brutal meta. Last Katowice was a big failure and he didn’t show up against Cure last GSL, with a non-Zerg bracket that was a great opportunity for him. Aside from that I can’t recall many instances of Trap just failing in a tournament, and we’re talking a few years Because he’s Protoss people maybe don’t recognise it/respect it, I don’t know. He’s stylistically a lot like Maru, especially his PvT. He lives on the razor’s edge and pulling off miracles with judgement and crazy execution. He gets an edge by really pushing it, and if he executes well no non-Zerg can live with it. Like Maru he can accomplish miracles with weird, technical to control unit sets and just pounce when he scents blood. I’ve seen him deflect an attack and then move out on the map with a handful of gateway units, a prism and one immortal with my head in my hands going ‘this is stupid’ with 100% knows be of the game state only for him to encounter the bio squad and, somehow kill it. In PvZ I don’t think a Protoss can really prosper in the same way. There’s a relatively even eco/supply in early to mid game PvT and winning an early/midgame technical skirmish can snowball, which is where Trap gets a lot of joy. You don’t get that so much in PvZ, it’s commitment into pressure from a numbers deficit, or playing for the late game. Or resolutely defending Speaking broad brush but you get me, Trap gets a lot of wins from turning an even game into a favoured game with solid defence and midgame small skirmishes and riding that advantage out. It’s really kind of hard to skirmish a Zerg into a real deficit in which you can quickly kill them. This isn’t to say PvZ is unwinnable or crazy unfair, I don’t think it suits Trap’s primarily skillset even though he has great scalps to his name Maru’s chops, or Clem’s chops in the same domain of snowballing advantages via risk and execution absolutely does transfer over to TvZ because you can consistently trade well and wear them down in a way Protoss cannot do Maybe you're right and I'm overexaggerating his inconsistency but that's just what sticks out to me when I think of him. Stats and Classic didn't really have such poor performances when they were the best Protoss players. You can also add his latest GSL finals vs Dark to the series where he didn't deliver (overcommited for no reason in one game, lost vs a Nydus he had all the tools to defend and knew it was coming because he missed a changeling) and in TSL 6 he also lost in the first round vs Ragnarok. yeah and for Rogue you're right that he's incosistent but he delivered when it really counted so it seemed to be more of a motivational thing than a mental thing and Maru only really had those poor performances in foreign tournaments because he struggles with adapting to jetlag/travelling
He’s not inconsistent :p I will die on this hill!
Now Zest, on the other hand mixes pretty mediocre results with making Katowice finals and a GSL finals, I’d say of the two players who’ve been carrying Protoss he’s the dazzling highs and the crushing lows player, and Trap is the guy who keeps to a high baseline without much deviation.
Note this consistency works in both the under AND over performing directions, it doesn’t mean they’re a better player. Heromarine is an example of a player who is resolutely consistent, he beats the players he should, he rarely beats the players above him in the pecking order.
Outside of Gemini, and I’m a fan too, does anyone have Trap as anything other than an underdog against a Rogue or a Dark?
Be it due to perceptions of the player skill, or the state of PvZ, or a combination thereof.
If Trap isn’t consistent basically nobody in the scene is, or has ever been. He is missing a big prestige prize, whether that’s due to a mentality problem and not performing, or him just not quite being of that level, or his race being a ceiling. That is certainly true, but that’s more in the realm of stepping into being a great versus being a consistently excellent player
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On December 23 2021 00:22 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 18:35 Charoisaur wrote:On December 22 2021 10:39 WombaT wrote:On December 22 2021 09:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 22 2021 07:21 WombaT wrote:
Is 2350 a good score? I’m not from the States so I’m not super familiar what scores correlate with what, but from what I’m reading here it seems 2350 indicates an inability to read and form responses to what other people are actually saying.
Do SATs measure obnoxiousness?
@drFilip, 100%, I don’t understand why Trap is tagged as inconsistent, or what would possibly be considered consistent given the last few years he’s put together.
Doesn’t mean he’s the best necessarily, I can’t think of anyone besides Serral who’s been as consistent in maintaining a certain level over this 3 year span.
Before this sparks any ‘but x are better than Trap and Serral’ that’s not what I said.
In terms of relative level of ability and coming close to hitting it most times is what I’m talking about. I’d put Heromarine as a similarly very consistent player In terms of results Trap is surely consistent but he also sometimes has series where he just can't deliver and makes a lot of unforced errors. Whether that's because of his race or not I don't know, but the other top players don't really have that. Maru and Rogue winning a lot of tier 2 events lately on top of their feats in the big leagues kind of masks that historically they’ve frequently bombed out early in smaller tournies, or even had the odd flub in Code S They’ve (recently) added relentless consistency, but prior to that they’ve been characterised as much by baffling lows as soaring highs, especially Rogue Trap has, iirc by a few seasons the record for consecutive GSL playoffs, he’s won what 5 tournaments this year, he’s made 3 GSL finals His first two GSL finals I think he plays them 10 times over and doesn’t win, Dark and Rogue are great players and they had a litany of tools in that meta. I think Trap played considerably better in some of those games than his third loss, in a less brutal meta. Last Katowice was a big failure and he didn’t show up against Cure last GSL, with a non-Zerg bracket that was a great opportunity for him. Aside from that I can’t recall many instances of Trap just failing in a tournament, and we’re talking a few years Because he’s Protoss people maybe don’t recognise it/respect it, I don’t know. He’s stylistically a lot like Maru, especially his PvT. He lives on the razor’s edge and pulling off miracles with judgement and crazy execution. He gets an edge by really pushing it, and if he executes well no non-Zerg can live with it. Like Maru he can accomplish miracles with weird, technical to control unit sets and just pounce when he scents blood. I’ve seen him deflect an attack and then move out on the map with a handful of gateway units, a prism and one immortal with my head in my hands going ‘this is stupid’ with 100% knows be of the game state only for him to encounter the bio squad and, somehow kill it. In PvZ I don’t think a Protoss can really prosper in the same way. There’s a relatively even eco/supply in early to mid game PvT and winning an early/midgame technical skirmish can snowball, which is where Trap gets a lot of joy. You don’t get that so much in PvZ, it’s commitment into pressure from a numbers deficit, or playing for the late game. Or resolutely defending Speaking broad brush but you get me, Trap gets a lot of wins from turning an even game into a favoured game with solid defence and midgame small skirmishes and riding that advantage out. It’s really kind of hard to skirmish a Zerg into a real deficit in which you can quickly kill them. This isn’t to say PvZ is unwinnable or crazy unfair, I don’t think it suits Trap’s primarily skillset even though he has great scalps to his name Maru’s chops, or Clem’s chops in the same domain of snowballing advantages via risk and execution absolutely does transfer over to TvZ because you can consistently trade well and wear them down in a way Protoss cannot do Maybe you're right and I'm overexaggerating his inconsistency but that's just what sticks out to me when I think of him. Stats and Classic didn't really have such poor performances when they were the best Protoss players. You can also add his latest GSL finals vs Dark to the series where he didn't deliver (overcommited for no reason in one game, lost vs a Nydus he had all the tools to defend and knew it was coming because he missed a changeling) and in TSL 6 he also lost in the first round vs Ragnarok. yeah and for Rogue you're right that he's incosistent but he delivered when it really counted so it seemed to be more of a motivational thing than a mental thing and Maru only really had those poor performances in foreign tournaments because he struggles with adapting to jetlag/travelling Outside of Gemini, and I’m a fan too, does anyone have Trap as anything other than an underdog against a Rogue or a Dark?
During his title winning streak I would've picked him as the favourite against anyone. In a tier 2 tournament at least.
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I have two comments. The first is that this problem is really just a very top of the pro scene problem.
The second is that many people are completely underestimating the scale of the problem at the top.
On Aligulac Serral is currently sitting at 404 ELO points ahead of MaxPax, who is currently the highest ranked Protoss.
To put that in perspective, according to ELO Rattata is more likely to beat MaxPax than MaxPax is to beat Serral. So if you are a Zerg trying to understand why Protosses are whining, imagine if you were told that Rattatta was your great hope for beating MaxPax, Trap and Zest and then you would understand the despair that the Protoss fans have.
At the same time we need to recognize that by the time you start comparing the 5th best Protoss to the 5th best Zerg and Terran then everyone is within 100 ELO so the problem is greatly diminished.
Rattatta is the 11th best Zerg, but there are 12 Protosses ahead of him so once you get out of top 30 in the world, then Protoss is actually even or slightly better than Zerg. So we are not losing on ladder because Protoss is underpowered.
This is purely a viewership problem at the very top of professional Starcraft 2.
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Comparing MaxPax to serral is disingenuous. Serral is much better than MaxPax.
When you make the comparison to solar, reynor, etc. It's much more comparable. I can see MaxPax taking series off of them, even rogue/dark depending on the day. (and I say "even", because rogue/dark have a history of overperforming. If they played 100 series, I don't think the win/loss would be more than 5-8% in either direction)
Serral is genuinely an outlier.
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Who should he be comparing to Serral instead of Maxpax?
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On December 22 2021 09:40 Nebuchad wrote:
I'd be a little more cautious on that, you may be right but it's also true that protoss errors are often much easier to spot than terran or zerg errors.
I watched the ESL cup finals where Maxpax 3-0ed Reynor recently, it was commented by Lambo on Rotti's stream, and during the airtoss game Lambo pointed out that at one point Reynor took a very bad fight at his triangle base that ultimately allowed Maxpax to win this game. I could not tell you what was bad about that fight (Lambo didn't specify). I also watched it on o'gaming's stream out of curiosity and they didn't make any relevant comments about the fight outside of play by play.
Interesting point, BUT if protoss mistakes are so easy to notice, shouldn't that mean that protoss players have easier time to fix them.
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On December 23 2021 04:50 Elantris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 09:40 Nebuchad wrote:
I'd be a little more cautious on that, you may be right but it's also true that protoss errors are often much easier to spot than terran or zerg errors.
I watched the ESL cup finals where Maxpax 3-0ed Reynor recently, it was commented by Lambo on Rotti's stream, and during the airtoss game Lambo pointed out that at one point Reynor took a very bad fight at his triangle base that ultimately allowed Maxpax to win this game. I could not tell you what was bad about that fight (Lambo didn't specify). I also watched it on o'gaming's stream out of curiosity and they didn't make any relevant comments about the fight outside of play by play. Interesting point, BUT if protoss mistakes are so easy to notice, shouldn't that mean that protoss players have easier time to fix them.
Not really imo. At high level you don't really make mistakes because you don't know that you shouldn't be doing something, you make mistakes because a lot of things happen at the same time and it's hard.
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On December 23 2021 04:50 Elantris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2021 09:40 Nebuchad wrote:
I'd be a little more cautious on that, you may be right but it's also true that protoss errors are often much easier to spot than terran or zerg errors.
I watched the ESL cup finals where Maxpax 3-0ed Reynor recently, it was commented by Lambo on Rotti's stream, and during the airtoss game Lambo pointed out that at one point Reynor took a very bad fight at his triangle base that ultimately allowed Maxpax to win this game. I could not tell you what was bad about that fight (Lambo didn't specify). I also watched it on o'gaming's stream out of curiosity and they didn't make any relevant comments about the fight outside of play by play. Interesting point, BUT if protoss mistakes are so easy to notice, shouldn't that mean that protoss players have easier time to fix them.
I don't think he means easier for players to spot but rather for viewers. A pro will know they made a mistake in a situation where most of us wouldn't recognize one.
Also just because a mistake is easy to spot doesn't mean its easy to correct. For example zealot moving out of the wall to let robo units through and then going back but not on hold position or whatever the case might be. Easy to spot, but that doesn't mean that it's any easier to correct. Every toss knows how bad that can be but you can get caught up in the game and just miss it once and its gg even if you did it correctly 10 other times in that same game.
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On December 23 2021 05:33 Moonerz wrote:
For example zealot moving out of the wall to let robo units through and then going back but not on hold position or whatever the case might be. Easy to spot, but that doesn't mean that it's any easier to correct. Every toss knows how bad that can be but you can get caught up in the game and just miss it once and its gg even if you did it correctly 10 other times in that same game.
That's why smartest men build robo at third.
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On December 23 2021 04:24 InfCereal wrote:
Comparing MaxPax to serral is disingenuous. Serral is much better than MaxPax.
When you make the comparison to solar, reynor, etc. It's much more comparable. I can see MaxPax taking series off of them, even rogue/dark depending on the day. (and I say "even", because rogue/dark have a history of overperforming. If they played 100 series, I don't think the win/loss would be more than 5-8% in either direction)
Serral is genuinely an outlier.
You think Serral is outlier because he is 150 ELO ahead of Reynor but he is over 400 ELO ahead of anyone playing the Protoss race. Even Reynor is 254 ELO higher than any Protoss player.
Dark is 228 ELO higher than any Protoss player.
Rogue is 197 ELO higher than any Protoss player.
Do you see the problem here? What you call an outlier is actually the entirety of high level professional ZvP right now.
If you don't like me comparing to MaxPax I can compare to someone else.
Trap is 442 ELO behind Serral. If you drop down another 442 ELO you get to Cham.
If someone told you it was balanced and not to worry because Cham is the great hope to beat MaxPax, Zest, Parting and Trap would you feel like there was something wrong? Would you lack confidence that Cham would take that best of 7 off of Trap? Would lack hope that it even might happen?
That is what it is like to watch high level ZvP right now.
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EPT
