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On December 19 2021 09:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2021 03:48 kingism wrote:
The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea GM being absolutely chock full of Protoss players isn’t a good thing, at all. You might not care, but it doesn’t change that It genuinely baffles me that anyone posting in this thread can view either Protoss sucking at winning big tournaments or dominating ladder numbers as good/bad in isolation. They’re both bad, in an ideal world close to parity is the idea. The scene is a whole ecosystem, and yes some people may only post on TL/watch premier tournaments, like myself. Some play the game for a living, some play for pure fun. Anyone who says ‘fuck ladder/fuck tournament results I don’t care’ is being, in my less than humble opinion, a complete myopic idiot. It’s not 2010 anymore, there’s still a pretty healthy scene but if this is to be the last real patch, the scene withers if it’s grossly imbalanced. As to the specific reasons why, let’s have some debate sure. Or how pronounced issues are but people saying such daft things confuses me. Serral and Rogue are supremely talented, but so are players from all the factions. We’re not really close to Zerg dominance we’ve seen in other eras, BL/Infestor was a dominant comp both in vP and vT At least at the very top I’m not seeing much evidence that Zerg is an issue outside of vP. Maru’s just won Super Tournament and broke Rogue’s Bo7 mastery, Clem’s went from competing solidly with Serral and Reynor to trading wins with regularity and beating them.
Regarding you comment about that Zerg dominance... i think it says a lot when one have to write something like that as a positive thing, since the essence is, sort of, "Sure, Zerg is dominating, but at least zerg is not a complete op-joke"...
I think this is the problem when looking ahead, As some people have pointed out before, toss has suffered alot when there has been balance patches. A lot of tweaking in the strategy has been forced upon toss more than the other races, and that, after a while, T and in particular Z, toss is being understood and T and Z have less problem with toss. Which is a huge issue now since there will by no serious patching. So, slowly, from a position when toss only have had Trap, and zest in a way, the last period as the only serious contenders, toss will have even more problem in the future.
I fear the dominance of Z in ZvP will be even greater in the future.
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On December 19 2021 17:14 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2021 20:00 Nebuchad wrote:On December 18 2021 17:17 NinjaNight wrote:On December 18 2021 00:21 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 17:55 NinjaNight wrote:On December 17 2021 05:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 03:47 NinjaNight wrote:On December 16 2021 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 10:57 MarianoSC2 wrote:On December 16 2021 06:26 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
No the fact that many people are posting in this thread isn't evidence of anything, you're getting desperate to prove something that you don't need to prove and I don't know why you're doing it. He was right in his last post though. There is clear evidence that at the highest level, specifically talking about ZvP if both play perfectly, there is not chance for Protoss to win, no matter how they play. Toss can only rely on the Zerg to make a mistake in the perception of the game. Take Trap vs Reynor and Trap vs Serral as examples I think that tells the whole story. Trap won against Reynor because he caught him off guard with timing attacks which the Zerg didnt anticipate properly = Zergs mistake, well punished. But against Serral, a lot more solid player with perfect game awareness, he looked like a diamond scrub, and he didnt necesarily even have to play trash, just he didnt manage to outsmart the Zerg. Is this how they game is supposed to be? When both players play solid one race is clearly superior by design so they auto-win if they other race does not surprise them? Its bullshit, but its how it is. I remember times in SC2 when even ZvT was eft up... Just get them before ultras or get them before brood/infestor. Those kind of things are just unfair because on the highest level where least mistakes are made they always favor the race which is the most forgiving and with the most macro potential. Now in current state of the game ZvT is okay, but ZvP is a joke and everyone sees that. There is no protoss in the world who can beat a Zerg if both are highest level and both play an even game, no one. And its not like Serral is unbeatable, its just that in ZvP by design and macro mechanics its a requirement for Protoss to surprise this kind of player because they are playing at a disadvantage for most of the game. Its stupid. Will it ever change? No, but why close our eyes against it? To sum it up in RTS I think that on the highest level if one player has better tools at their disposal then the other, its a problem and clear inbalance and its what ZvP has been for ages. Those two races are polar opposites and while there are tactics the Protoss can use to exploit this in their advantages, they are less and less effective the higher level your opponent is. That is why there is such a huge discrepancy between standard ladder and top players. The skill cap of the Zerg is just too high compared to Protoss.... It is extremely obvious that at the top level of play protoss doesn't win, I've been saying that throughout the thread and it's the reason why I'm not watching Starcraft. This guy is trying to demonstrate to me that this can only be due to race and not to the fact that 5 or 6 people at the highest level are just better than the rest and happen to not play protoss, which he doesn't need to do and he obviously doesn't have evidence for because there's no way to have evidence for that. I think almost every single one of my posts in this thread contains the idea that protoss is weak at top level, it is kind of impressive that you would manage to miss that. Your refusal to accept anything as evidence doesn't mean evidence doesn't exist. You always ignore the Trap vs Serral conundrum for instance and cherry pick anything else to detract from the overall idea. Here you have a similarly skilled player getting demolished, it IS evidence even if its not perfect proof. Evidence doesn't mean the same thing as complete proof maybe thats your problem. As he said there's plenty of clear evidence that protoss relies on the zerg to make major mistakes in perception otherwise zerg will pretty much always win. If you don't have complete proof do you acknowledge that there's a possibility that the other scenario is right? Yes I wouldn't say its impossible but it should be very unlikely, and if you understand the game well you can tell from watching high level PvZs that its not purely inferior player skill and zerg truly does have the advantage. I see, so in summary when I said it was possible and you went after me for saying that for several pages, I was right and you were wrong? No I'm still saying we can tell its clearly not just player skill making it the weakest race, that doesn't mean it was impossible for that to happen. I'm just saying it is possible to see that this is not what's happening. And I don't mean to go after you I just strongly disagree with your viewpoint and enjoy discussing it. You're trying to have it both ways, arguing that we can clearly tell one is the correct answer and also that the other answer could be the correct one at the same time. A simpler way of describing this is just that both are possible and you think one is more likely than the other. I don't know why you take issue with this. Basically I don't see it as contradictory because I believe its possible but it doesn't matter that its possible because its clearly not what's really happening. I said I think it should be very unlikely but my reasoning isn't just based on that, also by observation we can use reality to confirm thats not whats happening. I only take issue with the concept that its impossible for anyone to see if protoss weakness is caused by lack of player skill or not, I don't think it is anywhere near impossible. You probably think so just because there's no obvious way to concretely measure that.
There's no real way to "use reality" to confirm that's not what's happening, and there's also no "we". Zergs probably think that zerg is slightly too strong right now but it's not a big deal, and remember that terrans think terran is underpowered every single time any terran loses any game.
Also if we could use reality to confirm that's not what's happening, then it would follow that it is impossible :p that's how words work. What we're saying is very similar but you insist on using a weaker framing for it.
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Entire quote: + Show Spoiler +On December 19 2021 03:48 kingism wrote:
The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea
Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg.
It isn't gold league that is the problem, it is the highest possible ladder. The new pro players are to come from that Protoss filled mess. The Protoss oversaturation makes the ladder experience less enjoyable for everyone. A variation is needed for the players to enjoy playing a lot.
If ladder is not fun, players will play less. This is detrimental in several ways.
- less engagement in the community
- longer wait times when playing ladder, which also leads to bigger discrepancies in skill level in ladder games
- fewer players practicing enough to go pro, which leads to fewer new players on the pro scene
Having a lot of 1 race in GM is bad. It doesn't matter which race it is that dominates. The above is true nonetheless.
I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered
I suspect that you do not mean what you wrote since the corollary of this is that there should exist a strategy that protoss can use which wins even if the zerg make all preparations they can.
People complained about the soul train that PartinG used to win. That was a build that won even if the Zerg knew it was coming (fitting that it was a PvZ build). The soul train fits your indicated wish. PartinG won more than he lost with the soul train, so that build was used by him vs every Zerg because it was better than having variety.
Another example is less general and more map dependent, but sOs was winning every PvZ in Proleague for quite some time. He cannon rushed every game. After a while the Zergs started blind countering, but he kept winning. He had 100% wins PvZ on a few maps. This also fits the "Zerg can know but not defend".
You are mentioning that Zerg can scout everything. To me, this makes it more likely that the ability to scout is too easily available rather than the ability to adapt to the scouting information being the issue.
If you know everything and you do everything correctly you should be able to defend an attack every time. Attacks are investments. They are losing you something in exchange for damage to your opponent. If the opponent know everything and do everything correctly then they have both defenders advantage and the ability to make units that counter the units of the attacker.
My opinion is that there should be builds and strategies that are hard to scout and the response should be costly for the Zerg. This would disallow the Zerg from cutting corners and invest a lot into macro.
You lift the ladder and say it isn't an issue. This is flat out, objectively wrong. It is an issue, but it is not the same issue as Protoss being weak in the absolute top.
You also mention Zerg ability to defend, and I disagree with your assessment. I think that scouting is the issue, not the adapting to the scouting.
How to adress scouting is not something I know how to do. Slower Overlords? Stronger Stalkers vs Overlords? Different map layout to help hiding? Different map layout to aide variance in Protoss attacks? Please help with this!
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On December 19 2021 22:01 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2021 17:14 NinjaNight wrote:On December 18 2021 20:00 Nebuchad wrote:On December 18 2021 17:17 NinjaNight wrote:On December 18 2021 00:21 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 17:55 NinjaNight wrote:On December 17 2021 05:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 17 2021 03:47 NinjaNight wrote:On December 16 2021 21:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 16 2021 10:57 MarianoSC2 wrote:
[quote]
He was right in his last post though. There is clear evidence that at the highest level, specifically talking about ZvP if both play perfectly, there is not chance for Protoss to win, no matter how they play. Toss can only rely on the Zerg to make a mistake in the perception of the game. Take Trap vs Reynor and Trap vs Serral as examples I think that tells the whole story.
Trap won against Reynor because he caught him off guard with timing attacks which the Zerg didnt anticipate properly = Zergs mistake, well punished. But against Serral, a lot more solid player with perfect game awareness, he looked like a diamond scrub, and he didnt necesarily even have to play trash, just he didnt manage to outsmart the Zerg.
Is this how they game is supposed to be? When both players play solid one race is clearly superior by design so they auto-win if they other race does not surprise them? Its bullshit, but its how it is.
I remember times in SC2 when even ZvT was eft up... Just get them before ultras or get them before brood/infestor. Those kind of things are just unfair because on the highest level where least mistakes are made they always favor the race which is the most forgiving and with the most macro potential.
Now in current state of the game ZvT is okay, but ZvP is a joke and everyone sees that. There is no protoss in the world who can beat a Zerg if both are highest level and both play an even game, no one. And its not like Serral is unbeatable, its just that in ZvP by design and macro mechanics its a requirement for Protoss to surprise this kind of player because they are playing at a disadvantage for most of the game. Its stupid.
Will it ever change? No, but why close our eyes against it?
To sum it up in RTS I think that on the highest level if one player has better tools at their disposal then the other, its a problem and clear inbalance and its what ZvP has been for ages. Those two races are polar opposites and while there are tactics the Protoss can use to exploit this in their advantages, they are less and less effective the higher level your opponent is. That is why there is such a huge discrepancy between standard ladder and top players. The skill cap of the Zerg is just too high compared to Protoss....
It is extremely obvious that at the top level of play protoss doesn't win, I've been saying that throughout the thread and it's the reason why I'm not watching Starcraft. This guy is trying to demonstrate to me that this can only be due to race and not to the fact that 5 or 6 people at the highest level are just better than the rest and happen to not play protoss, which he doesn't need to do and he obviously doesn't have evidence for because there's no way to have evidence for that. I think almost every single one of my posts in this thread contains the idea that protoss is weak at top level, it is kind of impressive that you would manage to miss that. Your refusal to accept anything as evidence doesn't mean evidence doesn't exist. You always ignore the Trap vs Serral conundrum for instance and cherry pick anything else to detract from the overall idea. Here you have a similarly skilled player getting demolished, it IS evidence even if its not perfect proof. Evidence doesn't mean the same thing as complete proof maybe thats your problem. As he said there's plenty of clear evidence that protoss relies on the zerg to make major mistakes in perception otherwise zerg will pretty much always win. If you don't have complete proof do you acknowledge that there's a possibility that the other scenario is right? Yes I wouldn't say its impossible but it should be very unlikely, and if you understand the game well you can tell from watching high level PvZs that its not purely inferior player skill and zerg truly does have the advantage. I see, so in summary when I said it was possible and you went after me for saying that for several pages, I was right and you were wrong? No I'm still saying we can tell its clearly not just player skill making it the weakest race, that doesn't mean it was impossible for that to happen. I'm just saying it is possible to see that this is not what's happening. And I don't mean to go after you I just strongly disagree with your viewpoint and enjoy discussing it. You're trying to have it both ways, arguing that we can clearly tell one is the correct answer and also that the other answer could be the correct one at the same time. A simpler way of describing this is just that both are possible and you think one is more likely than the other. I don't know why you take issue with this. Basically I don't see it as contradictory because I believe its possible but it doesn't matter that its possible because its clearly not what's really happening. I said I think it should be very unlikely but my reasoning isn't just based on that, also by observation we can use reality to confirm thats not whats happening. I only take issue with the concept that its impossible for anyone to see if protoss weakness is caused by lack of player skill or not, I don't think it is anywhere near impossible. You probably think so just because there's no obvious way to concretely measure that. There's no real way to "use reality" to confirm that's not what's happening, and there's also no "we". Zergs probably think that zerg is slightly too strong right now but it's not a big deal, and remember that terrans think terran is underpowered every single time any terran loses any game. Also if we could use reality to confirm that's not what's happening, then it would follow that it is impossible :p that's how words work. What we're saying is very similar but you insist on using a weaker framing for it.
No they don't. Go on reddit.
All Zergs do is complain about how "skytoss is too strong!!!!" "the game needs a balance patch to fix how broken Protoss is!!!"
Zergs are used to being overpowered. They aren't happy unless they stay that way in really blatant and obvious ways.
It isn't obvious except on TL.net that Protoss is struggling at the pro level. The rest of the community either doesn't notice or doesn't care.
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I went on reddit and couldn't find any balance complaints from anyone. Can you be more specific?
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On December 19 2021 23:37 InfCereal wrote:
I went on reddit and couldn't find any balance complaints from anyone. Can you be more specific?
How is he supposed to post anecdotal opinions if you're sitting there asking for specifics?
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On December 19 2021 23:37 InfCereal wrote:
I went on reddit and couldn't find any balance complaints from anyone. Can you be more specific?
Try this one.
https://old.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/r6f7ii/has_there_been_any_news_on_a_balance_patch/
Just look for the Zerg responses.
Since this thread is about 2 weeks old, the balance whine posts have gotten rightfully downvoted but I was commenting when this thread was brand new and I got to see all sorts of dumb shit that was just Zergs whining that about Skytoss on ladder; ignoring what was the bigger picture in the pro scene.
I'm sure there are still a lot of Terrans who hate shit like the Void Ray/Battery all in (rightfully so IMO, that build is bullshit), but they aren't as active on reddit.
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On December 19 2021 23:18 Drfilip wrote:Entire quote: + Show Spoiler +On December 19 2021 03:48 kingism wrote:
The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea Show nested quote +Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. It isn't gold league that is the problem, it is the highest possible ladder. The new pro players are to come from that Protoss filled mess. The Protoss oversaturation makes the ladder experience less enjoyable for everyone. A variation is needed for the players to enjoy playing a lot. If ladder is not fun, players will play less. This is detrimental in several ways. - less engagement in the community - longer wait times when playing ladder, which also leads to bigger discrepancies in skill level in ladder games - fewer players practicing enough to go pro, which leads to fewer new players on the pro scene Having a lot of 1 race in GM is bad. It doesn't matter which race it is that dominates. The above is true nonetheless. Show nested quote +I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered I suspect that you do not mean what you wrote since the corollary of this is that there should exist a strategy that protoss can use which wins even if the zerg make all preparations they can. People complained about the soul train that PartinG used to win. That was a build that won even if the Zerg knew it was coming (fitting that it was a PvZ build). The soul train fits your indicated wish. PartinG won more than he lost with the soul train, so that build was used by him vs every Zerg because it was better than having variety. Another example is less general and more map dependent, but sOs was winning every PvZ in Proleague for quite some time. He cannon rushed every game. After a while the Zergs started blind countering, but he kept winning. He had 100% wins PvZ on a few maps. This also fits the "Zerg can know but not defend". You are mentioning that Zerg can scout everything. To me, this makes it more likely that the ability to scout is too easily available rather than the ability to adapt to the scouting information being the issue. If you know everything and you do everything correctly you should be able to defend an attack every time. Attacks are investments. They are losing you something in exchange for damage to your opponent. If the opponent know everything and do everything correctly then they have both defenders advantage and the ability to make units that counter the units of the attacker. My opinion is that there should be builds and strategies that are hard to scout and the response should be costly for the Zerg. This would disallow the Zerg from cutting corners and invest a lot into macro. You lift the ladder and say it isn't an issue. This is flat out, objectively wrong. It is an issue, but it is not the same issue as Protoss being weak in the absolute top. You also mention Zerg ability to defend, and I disagree with your assessment. I think that scouting is the issue, not the adapting to the scouting. How to adress scouting is not something I know how to do. Slower Overlords? Stronger Stalkers vs Overlords? Different map layout to help hiding? Different map layout to aide variance in Protoss attacks? Please help with this!
I think the problem is that with many of the toss attacks on the highest level it feels like the outcome is mostly in the zergs hand, if the zerg doesnt react well he loses, and if he does he wins. With the soul train if the toss was really good at it (like parting) the zerg would lose even if he scouted it because the toss also has an effect on the outcome, with stuff like adept pushes etc it doesn't seem like that.
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On December 20 2021 00:11 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2021 23:18 Drfilip wrote:Entire quote: + Show Spoiler +On December 19 2021 03:48 kingism wrote:
The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. It isn't gold league that is the problem, it is the highest possible ladder. The new pro players are to come from that Protoss filled mess. The Protoss oversaturation makes the ladder experience less enjoyable for everyone. A variation is needed for the players to enjoy playing a lot. If ladder is not fun, players will play less. This is detrimental in several ways. - less engagement in the community - longer wait times when playing ladder, which also leads to bigger discrepancies in skill level in ladder games - fewer players practicing enough to go pro, which leads to fewer new players on the pro scene Having a lot of 1 race in GM is bad. It doesn't matter which race it is that dominates. The above is true nonetheless. I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered I suspect that you do not mean what you wrote since the corollary of this is that there should exist a strategy that protoss can use which wins even if the zerg make all preparations they can. People complained about the soul train that PartinG used to win. That was a build that won even if the Zerg knew it was coming (fitting that it was a PvZ build). The soul train fits your indicated wish. PartinG won more than he lost with the soul train, so that build was used by him vs every Zerg because it was better than having variety. Another example is less general and more map dependent, but sOs was winning every PvZ in Proleague for quite some time. He cannon rushed every game. After a while the Zergs started blind countering, but he kept winning. He had 100% wins PvZ on a few maps. This also fits the "Zerg can know but not defend". You are mentioning that Zerg can scout everything. To me, this makes it more likely that the ability to scout is too easily available rather than the ability to adapt to the scouting information being the issue. If you know everything and you do everything correctly you should be able to defend an attack every time. Attacks are investments. They are losing you something in exchange for damage to your opponent. If the opponent know everything and do everything correctly then they have both defenders advantage and the ability to make units that counter the units of the attacker. My opinion is that there should be builds and strategies that are hard to scout and the response should be costly for the Zerg. This would disallow the Zerg from cutting corners and invest a lot into macro. You lift the ladder and say it isn't an issue. This is flat out, objectively wrong. It is an issue, but it is not the same issue as Protoss being weak in the absolute top. You also mention Zerg ability to defend, and I disagree with your assessment. I think that scouting is the issue, not the adapting to the scouting. How to adress scouting is not something I know how to do. Slower Overlords? Stronger Stalkers vs Overlords? Different map layout to help hiding? Different map layout to aide variance in Protoss attacks? Please help with this! I think the problem is that with many of the toss attacks on the highest level it feels like the outcome is mostly in the zergs hand, if the zerg doesnt react well he loses, and if he does he wins. With the soul train if the toss was really good at it (like parting) the zerg would lose even if he scouted it because the toss also has an effect on the outcome, with stuff like adept pushes etc it doesn't seem like that.
Rather than making timing pushes stronger/undefendable I'd prefer to see Toss being able to going toe to toe with Zerg in macro. Which they sometimes can, it's a hyperbole to say Protoss can never touch Zerg in a macrogame, they just need a little boost to make it a more regular occurence imo
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On December 20 2021 00:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 00:11 darklycid wrote:On December 19 2021 23:18 Drfilip wrote:Entire quote: + Show Spoiler +On December 19 2021 03:48 kingism wrote:
The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. It isn't gold league that is the problem, it is the highest possible ladder. The new pro players are to come from that Protoss filled mess. The Protoss oversaturation makes the ladder experience less enjoyable for everyone. A variation is needed for the players to enjoy playing a lot. If ladder is not fun, players will play less. This is detrimental in several ways. - less engagement in the community - longer wait times when playing ladder, which also leads to bigger discrepancies in skill level in ladder games - fewer players practicing enough to go pro, which leads to fewer new players on the pro scene Having a lot of 1 race in GM is bad. It doesn't matter which race it is that dominates. The above is true nonetheless. I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered I suspect that you do not mean what you wrote since the corollary of this is that there should exist a strategy that protoss can use which wins even if the zerg make all preparations they can. People complained about the soul train that PartinG used to win. That was a build that won even if the Zerg knew it was coming (fitting that it was a PvZ build). The soul train fits your indicated wish. PartinG won more than he lost with the soul train, so that build was used by him vs every Zerg because it was better than having variety. Another example is less general and more map dependent, but sOs was winning every PvZ in Proleague for quite some time. He cannon rushed every game. After a while the Zergs started blind countering, but he kept winning. He had 100% wins PvZ on a few maps. This also fits the "Zerg can know but not defend". You are mentioning that Zerg can scout everything. To me, this makes it more likely that the ability to scout is too easily available rather than the ability to adapt to the scouting information being the issue. If you know everything and you do everything correctly you should be able to defend an attack every time. Attacks are investments. They are losing you something in exchange for damage to your opponent. If the opponent know everything and do everything correctly then they have both defenders advantage and the ability to make units that counter the units of the attacker. My opinion is that there should be builds and strategies that are hard to scout and the response should be costly for the Zerg. This would disallow the Zerg from cutting corners and invest a lot into macro. You lift the ladder and say it isn't an issue. This is flat out, objectively wrong. It is an issue, but it is not the same issue as Protoss being weak in the absolute top. You also mention Zerg ability to defend, and I disagree with your assessment. I think that scouting is the issue, not the adapting to the scouting. How to adress scouting is not something I know how to do. Slower Overlords? Stronger Stalkers vs Overlords? Different map layout to help hiding? Different map layout to aide variance in Protoss attacks? Please help with this! I think the problem is that with many of the toss attacks on the highest level it feels like the outcome is mostly in the zergs hand, if the zerg doesnt react well he loses, and if he does he wins. With the soul train if the toss was really good at it (like parting) the zerg would lose even if he scouted it because the toss also has an effect on the outcome, with stuff like adept pushes etc it doesn't seem like that. Rather than making timing pushes stronger/undefendable I'd prefer to see Toss being able to going toe to toe with Zerg in macro. Which they sometimes can, it's a hyperbole to say Protoss can never touch Zerg in a macrogame, they just need a little boost to make it a more regular occurence imo
The problem is always the same.
How do you make Protoss better in a macro game without making them broken when they are in an All In?
The problem there is Warp Gate.
It really is the root of all of Protoss' problems. I've been saying it for years. You can't just leave a nearly instant distanceless reinforcement mechanic like that exist if you want a race to have a regular macro game.
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On December 20 2021 00:45 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 00:22 Charoisaur wrote:On December 20 2021 00:11 darklycid wrote:On December 19 2021 23:18 Drfilip wrote:Entire quote: + Show Spoiler +On December 19 2021 03:48 kingism wrote:
The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. It isn't gold league that is the problem, it is the highest possible ladder. The new pro players are to come from that Protoss filled mess. The Protoss oversaturation makes the ladder experience less enjoyable for everyone. A variation is needed for the players to enjoy playing a lot. If ladder is not fun, players will play less. This is detrimental in several ways. - less engagement in the community - longer wait times when playing ladder, which also leads to bigger discrepancies in skill level in ladder games - fewer players practicing enough to go pro, which leads to fewer new players on the pro scene Having a lot of 1 race in GM is bad. It doesn't matter which race it is that dominates. The above is true nonetheless. I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered I suspect that you do not mean what you wrote since the corollary of this is that there should exist a strategy that protoss can use which wins even if the zerg make all preparations they can. People complained about the soul train that PartinG used to win. That was a build that won even if the Zerg knew it was coming (fitting that it was a PvZ build). The soul train fits your indicated wish. PartinG won more than he lost with the soul train, so that build was used by him vs every Zerg because it was better than having variety. Another example is less general and more map dependent, but sOs was winning every PvZ in Proleague for quite some time. He cannon rushed every game. After a while the Zergs started blind countering, but he kept winning. He had 100% wins PvZ on a few maps. This also fits the "Zerg can know but not defend". You are mentioning that Zerg can scout everything. To me, this makes it more likely that the ability to scout is too easily available rather than the ability to adapt to the scouting information being the issue. If you know everything and you do everything correctly you should be able to defend an attack every time. Attacks are investments. They are losing you something in exchange for damage to your opponent. If the opponent know everything and do everything correctly then they have both defenders advantage and the ability to make units that counter the units of the attacker. My opinion is that there should be builds and strategies that are hard to scout and the response should be costly for the Zerg. This would disallow the Zerg from cutting corners and invest a lot into macro. You lift the ladder and say it isn't an issue. This is flat out, objectively wrong. It is an issue, but it is not the same issue as Protoss being weak in the absolute top. You also mention Zerg ability to defend, and I disagree with your assessment. I think that scouting is the issue, not the adapting to the scouting. How to adress scouting is not something I know how to do. Slower Overlords? Stronger Stalkers vs Overlords? Different map layout to help hiding? Different map layout to aide variance in Protoss attacks? Please help with this! I think the problem is that with many of the toss attacks on the highest level it feels like the outcome is mostly in the zergs hand, if the zerg doesnt react well he loses, and if he does he wins. With the soul train if the toss was really good at it (like parting) the zerg would lose even if he scouted it because the toss also has an effect on the outcome, with stuff like adept pushes etc it doesn't seem like that. Rather than making timing pushes stronger/undefendable I'd prefer to see Toss being able to going toe to toe with Zerg in macro. Which they sometimes can, it's a hyperbole to say Protoss can never touch Zerg in a macrogame, they just need a little boost to make it a more regular occurence imo The problem is always the same. How do you make Protoss better in a macro game without making them broken when they are in an All In? The problem there is Warp Gate. It really is the root of all of Protoss' problems. I've been saying it for years. You can't just leave a nearly instant distanceless reinforcement mechanic like that exist if you want a race to have a regular macro game.
I'd guess some late game ground upgrades locked behind later tech or smth.
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On December 20 2021 00:48 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 00:45 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 20 2021 00:22 Charoisaur wrote:On December 20 2021 00:11 darklycid wrote:On December 19 2021 23:18 Drfilip wrote:Entire quote: + Show Spoiler +On December 19 2021 03:48 kingism wrote:
The biggest problem with the design of starcraft is that zerg is supposed to be reactive and protoss the active one who decides the flow of the game. However, blizzard also decided that there shouldn't be a strategy by protoss (or terran) which is not deterministically defendable by zerg, meaning that, there MUST always be a way to defend a certain protoss attack strategy, otherwise protoss will be considered OP (and zerg bois will be crying OP).
The flipside of this is that the top zergs (who can always scout perfectly by sending in a few speed overlords) will always be able to defend wtever comes their way. Given that zerg's economy and production is miles ahead of protoss, I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered, at least in the highest level where no mistakes are made, unfortunately.
Zerg fanbois, stop giving us the bullsh*t about some scrub league's protoss representation being higher than zerg. Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. Zerg fanbois who keep saying that zerg is not OP and that Trap is just pure trash in talent comparing to Serral or Rogue, how about you tell us a build order, that even when scouted, can still deterministically beat someone like Serral? Write it down please? Because if you can't, that means that zerg is actually OP, because someone like Serral and Rogue, who has the protoss' playbook memorized, can then always defend the early and midgame attacks and come out ahead, given zerg's far superior economy (we all know how rediculous larva mechanics and zerg economy is, if you can't deal damage and slow them down early game, its game over).
Stop falttering yourselves that whenever Serral / Rogue or whichever bullsh*t zerg wins a game, its because they r supremely talented, instead of the obvious fact that zerg is just rediculuously overpowered. Honestly, you should just turn starcraft into a zvz game - how fun is it to see two players spamming larva and queens going at it against each other LOL woohoooo 200 supply vs 200 supply in 8 minutes, queens can defend everything early game, lets spam vipers and lurkersss, wt a joke of a race
Please, I would love a reply from a zerg fanboi. I bet you again hes gonna avoid the topic head on, and say that OHH BUT EUROPE GM IS FULL OF PROTOSS lol, like anyone of us f cares. Just turn professional strarcraft into zvz already yea Seriously no one gives a crap about Europe's gold league noobs playing protoss more than zerg. It isn't gold league that is the problem, it is the highest possible ladder. The new pro players are to come from that Protoss filled mess. The Protoss oversaturation makes the ladder experience less enjoyable for everyone. A variation is needed for the players to enjoy playing a lot. If ladder is not fun, players will play less. This is detrimental in several ways. - less engagement in the community - longer wait times when playing ladder, which also leads to bigger discrepancies in skill level in ladder games - fewer players practicing enough to go pro, which leads to fewer new players on the pro scene Having a lot of 1 race in GM is bad. It doesn't matter which race it is that dominates. The above is true nonetheless. I would argue then that if any strategy, if scouted, can always be defended, then protoss is underpowered and zerg is overpowered I suspect that you do not mean what you wrote since the corollary of this is that there should exist a strategy that protoss can use which wins even if the zerg make all preparations they can. People complained about the soul train that PartinG used to win. That was a build that won even if the Zerg knew it was coming (fitting that it was a PvZ build). The soul train fits your indicated wish. PartinG won more than he lost with the soul train, so that build was used by him vs every Zerg because it was better than having variety. Another example is less general and more map dependent, but sOs was winning every PvZ in Proleague for quite some time. He cannon rushed every game. After a while the Zergs started blind countering, but he kept winning. He had 100% wins PvZ on a few maps. This also fits the "Zerg can know but not defend". You are mentioning that Zerg can scout everything. To me, this makes it more likely that the ability to scout is too easily available rather than the ability to adapt to the scouting information being the issue. If you know everything and you do everything correctly you should be able to defend an attack every time. Attacks are investments. They are losing you something in exchange for damage to your opponent. If the opponent know everything and do everything correctly then they have both defenders advantage and the ability to make units that counter the units of the attacker. My opinion is that there should be builds and strategies that are hard to scout and the response should be costly for the Zerg. This would disallow the Zerg from cutting corners and invest a lot into macro. You lift the ladder and say it isn't an issue. This is flat out, objectively wrong. It is an issue, but it is not the same issue as Protoss being weak in the absolute top. You also mention Zerg ability to defend, and I disagree with your assessment. I think that scouting is the issue, not the adapting to the scouting. How to adress scouting is not something I know how to do. Slower Overlords? Stronger Stalkers vs Overlords? Different map layout to help hiding? Different map layout to aide variance in Protoss attacks? Please help with this! I think the problem is that with many of the toss attacks on the highest level it feels like the outcome is mostly in the zergs hand, if the zerg doesnt react well he loses, and if he does he wins. With the soul train if the toss was really good at it (like parting) the zerg would lose even if he scouted it because the toss also has an effect on the outcome, with stuff like adept pushes etc it doesn't seem like that. Rather than making timing pushes stronger/undefendable I'd prefer to see Toss being able to going toe to toe with Zerg in macro. Which they sometimes can, it's a hyperbole to say Protoss can never touch Zerg in a macrogame, they just need a little boost to make it a more regular occurence imo The problem is always the same. How do you make Protoss better in a macro game without making them broken when they are in an All In? The problem there is Warp Gate. It really is the root of all of Protoss' problems. I've been saying it for years. You can't just leave a nearly instant distanceless reinforcement mechanic like that exist if you want a race to have a regular macro game. I'd guess some late game ground upgrades locked behind later tech or smth.
Yea, that's what I would do, that's what any REASONABLE person would do.
But Warp Gate as it exists now is locked behind the fucking Cybernetics Core. It's as high tech as fucking Stim Pack for Terran. Think about that. Stim Pack vs Warp Gate, think how important one is for one race vs the other. And then realize that Warp Gate research time has been nerfed like 5 times because of the OTHER Protoss mechanic: Chronoboost.
It's completely ridiculous.
If Warp Gate was locked the way Arbiters used to be, then it would make so much more sense. You could make Gateway units so much stronger because the reinforcement of them would be so much more late game and difficult. But as it is now, the game is STILL balanced around the oldest of Protoss builds which is the 4 gate. Once an attack starts from a Protoss it never stops. The units are instantly in your face and you can reinforce onto high ground or behind you or anything.
It's such a powerful mechanic, that it makes you think, NO WONDER pure Gateway armies are garbage if the enemy has a real army to defend you. No WONDER that's how it works. Protoss armies NEED support from Robotics or Stargates because those units can't be reinforced that way. It all makes sense when you realize that, that is the fundamental mechanic that guides everything that they do. If you moved that deeper into their tech tree which is where it SHOULD be both lore wise and gameplay wise, you could make Protoss units what they were in Brood War which would open the race to so many things that currently they are locked to because of that ONE mechanic.
I've been saying it for years. I will keep saying it. Warp Gate is the problem.
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I'm fine with every protoss build, if scouted, deals 0 damage to zerg, IF zerg and protoss have the same level economy and unit production. At the moment, zerg's economy and unit production is far stronger than protoss. If protoss doesn't deal enough damage to zerg early to mid game, zerg will get to 200 supply with a disgusting number of drones and 6+ bases when protoss is still at 130 supply and 3 bases. We all know what happens next lol.
So zerg bois want 1) to have far superior economy and unit production 2) to easily defend every possible protoss attack. LOL why don't you guys just turn starcraft into a zvz already. What a joke.
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On December 20 2021 03:57 kingism wrote:
I'm fine with every protoss build, if scouted, deals 0 damage to zerg, IF zerg and protoss have the same level economy and unit production. At the moment, zerg's economy and unit production is far stronger than protoss. If protoss doesn't deal enough damage to zerg early to mid game, zerg will get to 200 supply with a disgusting number of drones and 6+ bases when protoss is still at 130 supply and 3 bases. We all know what happens next lol.
So zerg bois want 1) to have far superior economy and unit production 2) to easily defend every possible protoss attack. LOL why don't you guys just turn starcraft into a zvz already. What a joke.
I am glad that you loosened the hyperbole somewhat. A lot of the discussion in this thread is about what is making ZvP imbalanced at top level (and why the imbalance is opposite at slightly lower level).
Letting Protoss have a strong army that is a threat (via a warp gate nerf to stymie early game all ins) is one repeated argument. With a stronger Protoss army the Zerg would be forced to invest more into army and less into economy. The Protoss unit production is unchanged, but the Zerg economy is heavily affected.
My suggestion of making scouting weaker to empower Protoss attacking potential would give a similar effect, with the downside of more "1 fight to end it all" games. Rather than raising the skill ceiling of Protoss this would lower the skill ceiling of Zerg.
My suggestion was more bad than good in retrospect.
You keep saying "zerg bois" or something similar. Who are they? The opinions you attribute to them are not opinions I've seen being used by more than you. Are you building a straw man in order to be upset or are they hiding some other place than this thread?
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On December 20 2021 04:43 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 03:57 kingism wrote:
I'm fine with every protoss build, if scouted, deals 0 damage to zerg, IF zerg and protoss have the same level economy and unit production. At the moment, zerg's economy and unit production is far stronger than protoss. If protoss doesn't deal enough damage to zerg early to mid game, zerg will get to 200 supply with a disgusting number of drones and 6+ bases when protoss is still at 130 supply and 3 bases. We all know what happens next lol.
So zerg bois want 1) to have far superior economy and unit production 2) to easily defend every possible protoss attack. LOL why don't you guys just turn starcraft into a zvz already. What a joke. I am glad that you loosened the hyperbole somewhat. A lot of the discussion in this thread is about what is making ZvP imbalanced at top level (and why the imbalance is opposite at slightly lower level). Letting Protoss have a strong army that is a threat (via a warp gate nerf to stymie early game all ins) is one repeated argument. With a stronger Protoss army the Zerg would be forced to invest more into army and less into economy. The Protoss unit production is unchanged, but the Zerg economy is heavily affected. My suggestion of making scouting weaker to empower Protoss attacking potential would give a similar effect, with the downside of more "1 fight to end it all" games. Rather than raising the skill ceiling of Protoss this would lower the skill ceiling of Zerg. My suggestion was more bad than good in retrospect. You keep saying "zerg bois" or something similar. Who are they? The opinions you attribute to them are not opinions I've seen being used by more than you. Are you building a straw man in order to be upset or are they hiding some other place than this thread?
Zerg bois is everybody who disaggrees with this poster. I would ignore him if I were you 
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On December 20 2021 04:45 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 04:43 Drfilip wrote:On December 20 2021 03:57 kingism wrote:
I'm fine with every protoss build, if scouted, deals 0 damage to zerg, IF zerg and protoss have the same level economy and unit production. At the moment, zerg's economy and unit production is far stronger than protoss. If protoss doesn't deal enough damage to zerg early to mid game, zerg will get to 200 supply with a disgusting number of drones and 6+ bases when protoss is still at 130 supply and 3 bases. We all know what happens next lol.
So zerg bois want 1) to have far superior economy and unit production 2) to easily defend every possible protoss attack. LOL why don't you guys just turn starcraft into a zvz already. What a joke. I am glad that you loosened the hyperbole somewhat. A lot of the discussion in this thread is about what is making ZvP imbalanced at top level (and why the imbalance is opposite at slightly lower level). Letting Protoss have a strong army that is a threat (via a warp gate nerf to stymie early game all ins) is one repeated argument. With a stronger Protoss army the Zerg would be forced to invest more into army and less into economy. The Protoss unit production is unchanged, but the Zerg economy is heavily affected. My suggestion of making scouting weaker to empower Protoss attacking potential would give a similar effect, with the downside of more "1 fight to end it all" games. Rather than raising the skill ceiling of Protoss this would lower the skill ceiling of Zerg. My suggestion was more bad than good in retrospect. You keep saying "zerg bois" or something similar. Who are they? The opinions you attribute to them are not opinions I've seen being used by more than you. Are you building a straw man in order to be upset or are they hiding some other place than this thread? Zerg bois is everybody who disaggrees with this poster. I would ignore him if I were you
Imo posters like this is what you get when the general protoss hostility meets the results protoss are producing recently.
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The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore?
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On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore?
Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor?
Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are.
Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament.
Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player.
Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have.
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Again, make mothership immune to abduct and the lategame PvZ is solved without affecting PvT.
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On December 20 2021 11:58 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 11:50 WaesumNinja wrote:
The "maybe protoss players are just worse" or "protoss just doesn't have a strong top contender right now" arguments just don't hold, and it's baffling that this rhetoric keeps coming up after all this time. If protoss are underrepresented at the highest level of play then that is a very strong indication that something is not right.
Yeah sure Protoss has less mechanically demanding compositions which means that below pro level protoss will be more popular but I don't see why this somehow makes it fair that stronger players should have less tools? Like it's some sort of "ladder revenge".
Why are gateway units (barring early game trickery?) still garbage? Sure people like to whine about protoss aoe and mass air but what other options do they have since "midgame" is barely a thing anymore? Go ahead and name a Protoss player that you think is as skilled as Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral or Reynor? Go ahead and name someone that is consistently a top performer as those 5 are. Trap is the only name that comes close and he has nerves that are made of glass. He's demonstrated that in tournament after tournament. Zest is the only champion caliber Protoss out there and even a casual fan can tell that he is in a horrific slump right now because that's what he does. He is a feast or famine streaky player. Protoss DOES NOT have a consistent performer right now. They just don't. You can't name a player that you can say without embarassing yourself that has shown to have the same level of skill that those 5 players I mentioned have.
I think this is half of the problem, the other problem is power creep. Simply put, Zerg got alot of new tools as time went on while Protoss were kind of limited long term due to Warp Gate.
I still think a targeted nerf of the Lurker would go a long way to improving ZvP as a whole. A smart poster in here recommended Psi Storm doing extra damage to burrowed units, and while I think it's an inelegant solution, I think the Lurker is specifically overpowered vs. Protoss compared to Terran.
Lurkers are powerful in ZvT as well, but they don't seem to put Terran on a timer the way they do to Protoss, Terran has at least semi consistent ways of dealing with them, even if using mass snipe is an APM/mechanical nightmare.
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EPT
