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On December 14 2021 21:40 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2021 16:53 NinjaNight wrote:On December 13 2021 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On December 13 2021 01:13 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:49 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:42 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 01:28 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Fwiw (can't escape these without a good ol' Aligulac balance quote)
PvZ - 55% (lmfao)
TvZ - 54%
PvT - 46.6%
http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly. Thats why observation, logic, and actual in game experience with the races at a high level are important instead of just being a pure data nerd. You hear that all the time there's not enough data to tell this, not enough data to claim that... There's no level of observation or logic that will allow you to answer this type of question, and if you've ever heard 80% of pros talk you know that in game experience increases your bias rather than the quality of your data. That I can't agree with, there's almost always a way to answer anything correctly that we can directly experience. Wombat and Fanatic Templar had very good posts to counter you. Also the simplest strong evidence of protoss's weakness in this matchup is Serral. I'm watching him 4-0 Trap right now in TSL 8, the only protoss who has been very successful this year. Serral almost always absolutely demolishes protoss in particular while he struggles plenty vs terran and zerg. He shows just how helpless protoss is when zerg plays correctly. I don't know what argument you think you're answering but it's not the argument I have. It is obvious that protoss is by miles the weakest race at the very highest level of play. This doesn't answer the question of whether it happens because protoss is weak or because the few people who have enough skill to be at the highest level of play, let's say 5 or 6 people, just coincidentally all happened to not pick protoss at the start of the game years ago. This is a question that can't be answered. We cannot directly experience a world in which Serral chose to play protoss instead of zerg. That's the entirety of the issue. Maybe if Serral was protoss and Trap was zerg Serral would still have 4-0ed in this match, and we would be having a thread about how zerg can't win at the top level. Or maybe not. It's impossible to say. We don't have to say it, however, since either way the end result is that protoss is not winning, and you and I are rooting for protoss. As a consequence, I once again did the sane thing this afternoon and I didn't watch Trap play vs Serral, which means I had a much happier afternoon than you  First of all if a race is strong enough its extremely unlikely the good people just decided not to pick it, generally player strength will average out pretty closely with similarly strong races. There's too large of a player pool for that. We don't need to directly experience such a world, the player who is taking 70% of protoss tournament wins (Trap) consistently being crushed like a bronze league noob demonstrates the race is just bad. Not really true, because we're talking about a very limited sample size of players. But again I'm not sure why you're so invested in the difference between the two, it weakens your argument for no discernable gain.
Isn't there at least some merit to what he's saying though? Yea Rogue, Serral and Dark are crushing but it's not like any of them switched to Zerg because they suddenly realized Zerg is so dominant at the top, they've all been playing Zerg since the beginning.
The majority of this issue doesn't stem from Warp Gate (which I hate from a design stand point) it stems from Blizzard not leaving one damn person in charge of implementing simple/common sense balance patches even twice a year. Not that I think buffing Protoss or nerfing Zerg would be easy, this games top level of balance is imo balanced on the razor edge of a knife.
Not saying that invalidates this discussion but it does kind of put a dent in the, "Well all the pro players will clearly choose to play X race because it's stronger vs. Y race because that would be a waste of their time."
1st edit just to take out meaningless statements like Zerg wasn't always dominant not really relevant after rereading
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Actually if blizzard left someone to patch after 2020 then protoss would be in even worse shape now because for sure voids or something would have get nerfs after a couple of Trap wins and with deeply fueled hate for toss in this community.
Exactly this happened mid 2019 with prism nerfs.
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Of course there's some merit to what he's saying, it's one of the possibilities. That possibility has a certain percentage chance of being true, I would say over 50% for sure, in my heart it's like 90% or something but we don't care about my estimation since I root for protoss and I'm biased in favor of protoss players. In the context of this thread eliminating the distinction between the two allows us to remove our bias from the equation and look at the hope of protoss in the future based on the data alone, and that's what we should be doing.
Contrast that with other people in the thread (some of them dishonest, sure) who think we've just been unlucky, or that terran is the weakest race because Elusory lost to Byul 0-3 today or whatever. We don't need to know why we're weak in order to estimate our hope for the future.
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Northern Ireland25701 Posts
On December 15 2021 00:40 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2021 21:40 Nebuchad wrote:On December 14 2021 16:53 NinjaNight wrote:On December 13 2021 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On December 13 2021 01:13 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:49 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:42 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:[quote] http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly. Thats why observation, logic, and actual in game experience with the races at a high level are important instead of just being a pure data nerd. You hear that all the time there's not enough data to tell this, not enough data to claim that... There's no level of observation or logic that will allow you to answer this type of question, and if you've ever heard 80% of pros talk you know that in game experience increases your bias rather than the quality of your data. That I can't agree with, there's almost always a way to answer anything correctly that we can directly experience. Wombat and Fanatic Templar had very good posts to counter you. Also the simplest strong evidence of protoss's weakness in this matchup is Serral. I'm watching him 4-0 Trap right now in TSL 8, the only protoss who has been very successful this year. Serral almost always absolutely demolishes protoss in particular while he struggles plenty vs terran and zerg. He shows just how helpless protoss is when zerg plays correctly. I don't know what argument you think you're answering but it's not the argument I have. It is obvious that protoss is by miles the weakest race at the very highest level of play. This doesn't answer the question of whether it happens because protoss is weak or because the few people who have enough skill to be at the highest level of play, let's say 5 or 6 people, just coincidentally all happened to not pick protoss at the start of the game years ago. This is a question that can't be answered. We cannot directly experience a world in which Serral chose to play protoss instead of zerg. That's the entirety of the issue. Maybe if Serral was protoss and Trap was zerg Serral would still have 4-0ed in this match, and we would be having a thread about how zerg can't win at the top level. Or maybe not. It's impossible to say. We don't have to say it, however, since either way the end result is that protoss is not winning, and you and I are rooting for protoss. As a consequence, I once again did the sane thing this afternoon and I didn't watch Trap play vs Serral, which means I had a much happier afternoon than you First of all if a race is strong enough its extremely unlikely the good people just decided not to pick it, generally player strength will average out pretty closely with similarly strong races. There's too large of a player pool for that. We don't need to directly experience such a world, the player who is taking 70% of protoss tournament wins (Trap) consistently being crushed like a bronze league noob demonstrates the race is just bad. Not really true, because we're talking about a very limited sample size of players. But again I'm not sure why you're so invested in the difference between the two, it weakens your argument for no discernable gain. Isn't there at least some merit to what he's saying though? Yea Rogue, Serral and Dark are crushing but it's not like any of them switched to Zerg because they suddenly realized Zerg is so dominant at the top, they've all been playing Zerg since the beginning. I think we all have to remember that Zerg is dominant now, not always. The majority of this issue doesn't stem from Warp Gate (which I hate from a design stand point) it stems from Blizzard not leaving one damn person in charge of implementing simple/common sense balance patches even twice a year. Not that I think buffing Protoss or nerfing Zerg would be easy, this games top level of balance is imo balanced on the razor edge of a knife. Not saying that invalidates this discussion but it does kind of put a dent in the, "Well all the pro players will clearly choose to play X race because it's stronger vs. Y race because that would be a waste of their time."
I think neglected in the conversation is that races play differently and suit differing skill sets, plus they’re pretty aesthetically different so plenty of folks will play the race that suits how they want to play, or simply for coolness.
I could envisage Stats, if he’d wanted being a very good Zerg player, given how he tries to play Protoss. Whereas I don’t think herO’s strengths would suit playing them. Conversely, I don’t think Serral stylistically would mesh that well with Protoss
I don’t think a race’s strength is that big an influence in terms of who plays what race.
Where I think it maybe would be a factor is when a gifted amateur playing at a level where transitioning to going full-time professional is on the cards, and whether they choose to do that or not, especially in a scene where the future is uncertain
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 15 2021 00:40 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2021 21:40 Nebuchad wrote:On December 14 2021 16:53 NinjaNight wrote:On December 13 2021 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:On December 13 2021 01:13 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:49 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:42 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 02:35 Nebuchad wrote:On December 12 2021 02:33 NinjaNight wrote:On December 12 2021 01:41 Nebuchad wrote:[quote] http://aligulac.com/periods/The answer to your question is there. Protoss is doing bad at the best level because the top 5 of the race has done consistently worse than the top 5 of the other two races since 2018. You obviously don't care about that, but it's getting tiresome that you guys keep pretending you don't know what you're talking about. I think the problem for protoss is just being bad against zerg... its fine vs terran if not better, but I think very few people who believe the race is strong enough versus zerg play protoss at a high level. Also the fast expanding nature of LOTV just helps zerg imo thats what the race is designed to do. There's not even enough data to say that. It could also be that the very top of zerg players is just better than the very top of protoss players at the game. We cannot positively state that if Serral had chosen protoss instead of zerg he wouldn't be dominating, there's no direct evidence of that. All we can state is that there's not a ton of hope and that we should behave accordingly. Thats why observation, logic, and actual in game experience with the races at a high level are important instead of just being a pure data nerd. You hear that all the time there's not enough data to tell this, not enough data to claim that... There's no level of observation or logic that will allow you to answer this type of question, and if you've ever heard 80% of pros talk you know that in game experience increases your bias rather than the quality of your data. That I can't agree with, there's almost always a way to answer anything correctly that we can directly experience. Wombat and Fanatic Templar had very good posts to counter you. Also the simplest strong evidence of protoss's weakness in this matchup is Serral. I'm watching him 4-0 Trap right now in TSL 8, the only protoss who has been very successful this year. Serral almost always absolutely demolishes protoss in particular while he struggles plenty vs terran and zerg. He shows just how helpless protoss is when zerg plays correctly. I don't know what argument you think you're answering but it's not the argument I have. It is obvious that protoss is by miles the weakest race at the very highest level of play. This doesn't answer the question of whether it happens because protoss is weak or because the few people who have enough skill to be at the highest level of play, let's say 5 or 6 people, just coincidentally all happened to not pick protoss at the start of the game years ago. This is a question that can't be answered. We cannot directly experience a world in which Serral chose to play protoss instead of zerg. That's the entirety of the issue. Maybe if Serral was protoss and Trap was zerg Serral would still have 4-0ed in this match, and we would be having a thread about how zerg can't win at the top level. Or maybe not. It's impossible to say. We don't have to say it, however, since either way the end result is that protoss is not winning, and you and I are rooting for protoss. As a consequence, I once again did the sane thing this afternoon and I didn't watch Trap play vs Serral, which means I had a much happier afternoon than you First of all if a race is strong enough its extremely unlikely the good people just decided not to pick it, generally player strength will average out pretty closely with similarly strong races. There's too large of a player pool for that. We don't need to directly experience such a world, the player who is taking 70% of protoss tournament wins (Trap) consistently being crushed like a bronze league noob demonstrates the race is just bad. Not really true, because we're talking about a very limited sample size of players. But again I'm not sure why you're so invested in the difference between the two, it weakens your argument for no discernable gain. Isn't there at least some merit to what he's saying though? Yea Rogue, Serral and Dark are crushing but it's not like any of them switched to Zerg because they suddenly realized Zerg is so dominant at the top, they've all been playing Zerg since the beginning. I think we all have to remember that Zerg is dominant now, not always. The majority of this issue doesn't stem from Warp Gate (which I hate from a design stand point) it stems from Blizzard not leaving one damn person in charge of implementing simple/common sense balance patches even twice a year. Not that I think buffing Protoss or nerfing Zerg would be easy, this games top level of balance is imo balanced on the razor edge of a knife. Not saying that invalidates this discussion but it does kind of put a dent in the, "Well all the pro players will clearly choose to play X race because it's stronger vs. Y race because that would be a waste of their time."
Dude, we can't even come to terms on a single change and you expect one random dude doing sensible changes? Seriously?
If you fuck up the basic principles of a building no matter how many small repairs you do, it will still be fucked up. What we needed was the identification of all the biggest design flaws and their change. If you keep warp gate as an early game tech, you cannot boost gateway units, you have to keep very strong tech units in robo and SG and as such it's hard to break some stereotypes. E.g. people don't like deathballs. Well, suck it up, because to undeathball Protoss, you have to give power to other units than the chosen few. And that's the issue. Most of the gateway units are support units and meatshields for the tech units which do the damage. Now imagine bio being just a meatshield for tanks... but that's not how it works, bio does shitload of damage, tanks support bio. bio doesn't support liberators or medevacs, they support bio. It's all about these low tech units being supported by tech units. Protoss is the other way around. If you look at the Zerg it's the same way. Zerg doesn't have a designated power units like Protoss, all the casters are supports for the main army(and Queens  ) to do the damage.
Protoss is like a dam with holes which were fixed with bandaids. Now some of them are simply not holding because they got too wet and are peeling off. Aplying another bandaid requires a person with them bandaids to check the dam regurarly and re-apply the "fixes". But we both know this is a vitious circle and eventually the damn will collapse.
Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that.
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Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that.
This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder.
I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently.
Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced.
Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least.
You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that.
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On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that.
Back when adaptive talons dropped it was balanced, because Lurkers had 9 max range and not 10
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On December 15 2021 03:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that. Back when adaptive talons dropped it was balanced, because Lurkers had 9 max range and not 10
Wow I did not know that, good knowledge!
I actually wouldn't mind something like Lurker range being nerfed, but I still think the bigger issue is how positionally forgiving the Lurker is because of Talons. They should be able to hold ground strongly, it's part of their unit identity. Being able to move and reposition fast however? Not so much, takes alot of the skill out of the unit.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 15 2021 03:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that. Back when adaptive talons dropped it was balanced, because Lurkers had 9 max range and not 10
Back then maybe, nowadays it would most probably ruin the TvZ lategame. Which is the issue. Ironically I think this needs to go as it makes lurkers insanely fast and if a siege unit is chasing a retreating army. It. Is. Wrong. But then we can talk about the fact that Queens are marching across the map so it seems like Zerg is the stereotype breaker anyway
The point I'm trying to make is - it's not an easy balance fix/update. The easieast solution would be to buff some Protoss units via a cyber core upgrade. Thus Protoss has to choose between stronger units and delayed warp gate, or warp gate and stronger units later. It doesn't have to be anything big - slight movement speed bonus so Protoss actually can micro them units and can be aggressive at early game while not forced to glaves. I would even go as far as making the phase mode of warp prism an upgrade. Which would delay any strong timing pushes with warpgate AND strong warp gate units.
There are options to do stuff, also there's a reason why BW has some of them upgrades on the CC =)
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Just gonna throw this one out there, not super well thought out but what if storm just did 2x damage to burrowed units or something. It would really only touch this particular interaction HT vs Lurker and make it so lurkers actually die to storm in a reasonable time frame.
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On December 15 2021 09:17 Moonerz wrote:
Just gonna throw this one out there, not super well thought out but what if storm just did 2x damage to burrowed units or something. It would really only touch this particular interaction HT vs Lurker and make it so lurkers actually die to storm in a reasonable time frame.
It's not elegant but at this point man I would take any balance change lol
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On December 15 2021 09:54 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 09:17 Moonerz wrote:
Just gonna throw this one out there, not super well thought out but what if storm just did 2x damage to burrowed units or something. It would really only touch this particular interaction HT vs Lurker and make it so lurkers actually die to storm in a reasonable time frame. It's not elegant but at this point man I would take any balance change lol
Needs some lore explanation why being underground gets more damaged by an aerial attack. Maybe because of soil erosion and collapsing debris...
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 15 2021 14:31 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 09:54 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 15 2021 09:17 Moonerz wrote:
Just gonna throw this one out there, not super well thought out but what if storm just did 2x damage to burrowed units or something. It would really only touch this particular interaction HT vs Lurker and make it so lurkers actually die to storm in a reasonable time frame. It's not elegant but at this point man I would take any balance change lol Needs some lore explanation why being underground gets more damaged by an aerial attack. Maybe because of soil erosion and collapsing debris...
Well, electricity is attracted to the ground, thus if you're underground you enjoy it more
Also would make more damage to mines
Edit> just to be clear - one of the issues of lurkers isn't that storm doesn't kill them, but that they're bulky like queens and storm doesn't hit enough of them at the same time. Also with double damage it leaves them with 40 HP? It would be an interesting thing to try.
Edit edit> also gimme a lore explanation for burrow roached and infestor burrowing through lowered depot while leaving a trail on the ground. While my grounding exaplantion is top level nonsense, it's still better than roach not headbutting the lowered depot
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On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that.
Protoss isn't dominant on ladder, if anything more people just play protoss compared to Terran and Zerg.
With your logic you could would nerf something because more people play 1 race.
It's similar situation in league where people play a champ called Darius for example because he REKS noobs and you can abuse his power in 1v1 lane, but as soon as you get to a certain level people don't pick him anymore because he is easily countered and his silly shenanigan's dont work anymore.
So you all hate on Protoss because well lets be honest YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME WELL.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 15 2021 18:39 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that. Protoss isn't dominant on ladder, if anything more people just play protoss compared to Terran and Zerg. With your logic you could would nerf something because more people play 1 race. It's similar situation in league where people play a champ called Darius for example because he REKS noobs and you can abuse his power in 1v1 lane, but as soon as you get to a certain level people don't pick him anymore because he is easily countered and his silly shenanigan's dont work anymore. So you all hate on Protoss because well lets be honest YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME WELL.
Is this a trolling post? You do realize there's like 100 Protoss accounts in the EU GM? I would say that GM players are pretty good in the game consideirng they're the top players in the region. Sure, plenty of them aren't nowhere near the best players, but they're still pretty good.
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On December 15 2021 18:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 18:39 Drahkn wrote:On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that. Protoss isn't dominant on ladder, if anything more people just play protoss compared to Terran and Zerg. With your logic you could would nerf something because more people play 1 race. It's similar situation in league where people play a champ called Darius for example because he REKS noobs and you can abuse his power in 1v1 lane, but as soon as you get to a certain level people don't pick him anymore because he is easily countered and his silly shenanigan's dont work anymore. So you all hate on Protoss because well lets be honest YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME WELL. Is this a trolling post? You do realize there's like 100 Protoss accounts in the EU GM? I would say that GM players are pretty good in the game consideirng they're the top players in the region. Sure, plenty of them aren't nowhere near the best players, but they're still pretty good.
GM players are pretty good at abusing some sort of 1 trick pony builds, then you have a small group of GMS who can stay GM while practicing macro games and stopping all the bullshit that gets thrown at you at GM level. Protoss has very good one trick pony playstyles that work great in BO1s, powered even more by barcodes. This is how a lot of people like to get their GM title, abuse a Protoss 1 trick pony build. Add on top of this the amount of Pro's in europe that play protoss and the amount of smurfs GM accounts they have because they cant practise builds on ladder if people know who they are cause you get predictable in tournaments.
We have quite a few protoss pro's in Europe, they are all nicely tucked underneath all the Zergs and Terrans of the region go figure.
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France12901 Posts
On December 15 2021 19:26 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 18:41 deacon.frost wrote:On December 15 2021 18:39 Drahkn wrote:On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that. Protoss isn't dominant on ladder, if anything more people just play protoss compared to Terran and Zerg. With your logic you could would nerf something because more people play 1 race. It's similar situation in league where people play a champ called Darius for example because he REKS noobs and you can abuse his power in 1v1 lane, but as soon as you get to a certain level people don't pick him anymore because he is easily countered and his silly shenanigan's dont work anymore. So you all hate on Protoss because well lets be honest YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME WELL. Is this a trolling post? You do realize there's like 100 Protoss accounts in the EU GM? I would say that GM players are pretty good in the game consideirng they're the top players in the region. Sure, plenty of them aren't nowhere near the best players, but they're still pretty good. GM players are pretty good at abusing some sort of 1 trick pony builds, then you have a small group of GMS who can stay GM while practicing macro games and stopping all the bullshit that gets thrown at you at GM level. Protoss has very good one trick pony playstyles that work great in BO1s, powered even more by barcodes. This is how a lot of people like to get their GM title, abuse a Protoss 1 trick pony build. Add on top of this the amount of Pro's in europe that play protoss and the amount of smurfs GM accounts they have because they cant practise builds on ladder if people know who they are cause you get predictable in tournaments. We have quite a few protoss pro's in Europe, they are all nicely tucked underneath all the Zergs and Terrans of the region go figure.
That's not the case though? When you watch uThermal ladder statistics, he played like 40-50 games against Z/T and 150 games against protoss. Despite getting far more practice against protoss, his TvP winrate is still below his other winrates. The simple fact that there are more protoss in GM is a proof that they are successful on ladder -> they take spots from others with higher MMR. You could also see over the months some protoss spiking in MMR.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 15 2021 19:26 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 18:41 deacon.frost wrote:On December 15 2021 18:39 Drahkn wrote:On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that. Protoss isn't dominant on ladder, if anything more people just play protoss compared to Terran and Zerg. With your logic you could would nerf something because more people play 1 race. It's similar situation in league where people play a champ called Darius for example because he REKS noobs and you can abuse his power in 1v1 lane, but as soon as you get to a certain level people don't pick him anymore because he is easily countered and his silly shenanigan's dont work anymore. So you all hate on Protoss because well lets be honest YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME WELL. Is this a trolling post? You do realize there's like 100 Protoss accounts in the EU GM? I would say that GM players are pretty good in the game consideirng they're the top players in the region. Sure, plenty of them aren't nowhere near the best players, but they're still pretty good. GM players are pretty good at abusing some sort of 1 trick pony builds, then you have a small group of GMS who can stay GM while practicing macro games and stopping all the bullshit that gets thrown at you at GM level. Protoss has very good one trick pony playstyles that work great in BO1s, powered even more by barcodes. This is how a lot of people like to get their GM title, abuse a Protoss 1 trick pony build. Add on top of this the amount of Pro's in europe that play protoss and the amount of smurfs GM accounts they have because they cant practise builds on ladder if people know who they are cause you get predictable in tournaments. We have quite a few protoss pro's in Europe, they are all nicely tucked underneath all the Zergs and Terrans of the region go figure.
So what you say Protoss dominates the ladder with abusing BO1 builds? So you contradict yourself about "protoss isn't dominating the ladder, more people play it"? I just want to be clear, are Protoss dominating or not? xD Please check your posts before answering xD
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I agree with the lurkers being pretty bulky so storm isnt as effective, regardless of damage, as it is against like marines or banes for example. But i struggle to think of another toss unit (besides maybe a sentry rework or something.) that is even moderately equipped to deal with lurkers. Archon/Immortal reminds me of the Broodlord vs Thor interaction, theoretically Archon/Immortal should be able to somewhat deal with them but theyre just too bulky and slow.
People don't really seem to like air toss but unless something on the ground can deal with lurkers there really isn't an alternative.
Ps; only took us about 20 pages to get to the true degen balance whines
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On December 15 2021 18:39 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2021 01:39 Beelzebub1 wrote:Edit> Also we need to find a fix which is suited for the top 20 players, because the ladder is full of Protosses. Which makes it even harder, because what the community right now wants is to nerf and buff Protoss at the same time. Good luck with that. This is definitely a difficult spot I've already harped on a bit. It would be pretty tough to find an acceptable set of balance changes that would only impact the power of Protoss at the top level of play and not make Protoss even more dominant on the ladder. I disagree that there couldn't be some common sense changes, the person in charge would just have to actually do their job properly, not just sit there and make changes at random. Get lots of pro player feedback, community feedback as well, test maps, actually watch the games consistently. Imo Adaptive Talons is a perfect example. Back when LoTV first dropped, nobody touched Lurkers, and when they did it looked bad. There needed to be an incentive to play with Lurkers, something to make them feel strong. So back in the day, Adaptive Talons were pretty balanced. Now you can just watch really any series of Zerg vs. anything (even Zerg) and unless you are blind you would be able to see that the Lurker simply does it's job too well, and it's ability to be hyper mobile whilst holding ground like a champion is obviously not very balanced. There is to me at least, no real reason that such a powerful positional unit needs to be so nimble, not anymore at least. You shouldn't have to be some mathematician/meta knowledge wizard to see obvious things such as that. Protoss isn't dominant on ladder, if anything more people just play protoss compared to Terran and Zerg. With your logic you could would nerf something because more people play 1 race. It's similar situation in league where people play a champ called Darius for example because he REKS noobs and you can abuse his power in 1v1 lane, but as soon as you get to a certain level people don't pick him anymore because he is easily countered and his silly shenanigan's dont work anymore. So you all hate on Protoss because well lets be honest YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME WELL.
You didn't even read my post did you? You just saw the words nerf and Protoss in the same post and flipped your shit hu?
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