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On May 09 2019 03:22 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 03:01 Xain0n wrote:On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 08 2019 23:20 Elentos wrote:On May 08 2019 22:27 Lexender wrote:On May 08 2019 21:42 Durnuu wrote:On May 08 2019 21:40 Argonauta wrote:
8 tosses out of 12.. maybe 9 out of 12.... Though to be fair, in the end it only boils down to one, maybe two upsets (Patience obviously, and some people would argue Hurricane to be an upset). Everything else was expected An 8/3/3 split doesn't happens just because of 1-2 upsets. 2 different outcomes and it's 6/4/4, which would be fine since the ideal race distribution in Ro16 is 6/5/5. Though since it's unlikely sOs is eliminated in groups, we're technically 3 upsets (let's blame Patience, Hurricane and PartinG) away from balanced distribution. While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Zerg had 1 upset this RO32 with Impact topping his group while Rogue and Solar got knocked out. Terran had 1 upset this RO32 with Fantasy while Maru and Cure got knocked out. No terran topped his group. Protoss had 3 upsets this RO 32 with Patience, Hurricane and Parting. Zest got knocked out, in 5/7 groups protoss topped their group. Also the argument "only" three upsets makes it sound like Trap and herO were very favored in group F against Scarlett and Keen. I don't really think thats correct, I would say that was a very open group and Scarlett very well could have advanced. It just so happens protoss seems to win almost every group and they seem to knock all the other races out. Sure it could be pure chance, maybe Patience, Hurricane and Parting are hitting their peak but you know what, this isn't the first tournament we see this pattern. For some reason the universe seems to make protoss get full house on pure chance 10 times in a row, no problem though guys, its just luck. PartinG beating Cure isn't really an upset and the idea he would be peaking in 2019 is hilarious while Patience has been playing better than usual the whole year, he seems to be slowly regaining his 2016's shape; Hurricane's victories against Rogue and Solar came unexpected but we can say he deserved to advance. Protoss have been overperforming in the last month, slaughtering Terran in the qualifiers of the Super Tournament(not so much in the event going 8-9 in maps overall) and, especially, Zerg on the main stage(4-0 in series). In Code S, they are having a quite impressive conversion rate into the ro16 at the expense of both Terran and Zerg; however, as Charoisaur says, Korea in 2019 is a Protoss heavy environment, simply looking at the field we could have reasonably expected seven Protoss to make it to the ro16. Zerg having problems in Code S is hardly a surprise but they are struggling too much with PvZ in comparison to the past(not to mention cheese and timing pushes are increased so that the matchup is faster, more brutal and, to my tastes at least, less enjoyable to watch); Terran are at least winning quite often in TvZ in this tournament while Zerg are just underwhelming(so weird I instead mostly see people complaining of how broken TvP is in their opinion). If this trend goes on(it has to be noted foreign Protoss didn't have comparably strong showings) probably some balance revision is due(Warp prism/Immortal range, maybe?); however, it's not like we come from a period of Protoss domination like the constant balance whine would suggest. I dont know why you always revert to saying "it's not a period of Protoss domination". They have a big patch at the end of the year and since then we have seen these types of results. Past patch/years balance means nothing in this discussion
Because I find important to remark people have always complained about Protoss being too strong, even when there was no reason at all to do so.
This year Protoss won Super Tournament and WCS Winter NA; again, not exactly a dominating performance and not a single PvP final; recently they seem a little too strong in Korea but I would personally wait before nerfing them.
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On May 09 2019 03:58 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 03:22 Moonerz wrote:On May 09 2019 03:01 Xain0n wrote:On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 08 2019 23:20 Elentos wrote:On May 08 2019 22:27 Lexender wrote:On May 08 2019 21:42 Durnuu wrote:On May 08 2019 21:40 Argonauta wrote:
8 tosses out of 12.. maybe 9 out of 12.... Though to be fair, in the end it only boils down to one, maybe two upsets (Patience obviously, and some people would argue Hurricane to be an upset). Everything else was expected An 8/3/3 split doesn't happens just because of 1-2 upsets. 2 different outcomes and it's 6/4/4, which would be fine since the ideal race distribution in Ro16 is 6/5/5. Though since it's unlikely sOs is eliminated in groups, we're technically 3 upsets (let's blame Patience, Hurricane and PartinG) away from balanced distribution. While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Zerg had 1 upset this RO32 with Impact topping his group while Rogue and Solar got knocked out. Terran had 1 upset this RO32 with Fantasy while Maru and Cure got knocked out. No terran topped his group. Protoss had 3 upsets this RO 32 with Patience, Hurricane and Parting. Zest got knocked out, in 5/7 groups protoss topped their group. Also the argument "only" three upsets makes it sound like Trap and herO were very favored in group F against Scarlett and Keen. I don't really think thats correct, I would say that was a very open group and Scarlett very well could have advanced. It just so happens protoss seems to win almost every group and they seem to knock all the other races out. Sure it could be pure chance, maybe Patience, Hurricane and Parting are hitting their peak but you know what, this isn't the first tournament we see this pattern. For some reason the universe seems to make protoss get full house on pure chance 10 times in a row, no problem though guys, its just luck. PartinG beating Cure isn't really an upset and the idea he would be peaking in 2019 is hilarious while Patience has been playing better than usual the whole year, he seems to be slowly regaining his 2016's shape; Hurricane's victories against Rogue and Solar came unexpected but we can say he deserved to advance. Protoss have been overperforming in the last month, slaughtering Terran in the qualifiers of the Super Tournament(not so much in the event going 8-9 in maps overall) and, especially, Zerg on the main stage(4-0 in series). In Code S, they are having a quite impressive conversion rate into the ro16 at the expense of both Terran and Zerg; however, as Charoisaur says, Korea in 2019 is a Protoss heavy environment, simply looking at the field we could have reasonably expected seven Protoss to make it to the ro16. Zerg having problems in Code S is hardly a surprise but they are struggling too much with PvZ in comparison to the past(not to mention cheese and timing pushes are increased so that the matchup is faster, more brutal and, to my tastes at least, less enjoyable to watch); Terran are at least winning quite often in TvZ in this tournament while Zerg are just underwhelming(so weird I instead mostly see people complaining of how broken TvP is in their opinion). If this trend goes on(it has to be noted foreign Protoss didn't have comparably strong showings) probably some balance revision is due(Warp prism/Immortal range, maybe?); however, it's not like we come from a period of Protoss domination like the constant balance whine would suggest. I dont know why you always revert to saying "it's not a period of Protoss domination". They have a big patch at the end of the year and since then we have seen these types of results. Past patch/years balance means nothing in this discussion Because I find important to remark people have always complained about Protoss being too strong, even when there was no reason at all to do so. This year Protoss won Super Tournament and WCS Winter NA; again, not exactly a dominating performance and not a single PvP final; recently they seem a little too strong in Korea but I would personally wait before nerfing them.
Winning tournaments isn't all there is to having a "dominating performance" 7/8 top 8 Super Tournament is pretty dominant to me. I guess your definition is a little different.
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On May 09 2019 02:04 deacon.frost wrote:
But this is after IEM where we had ZvPCraft. This is after the GSL ST1 where we had 2 Terrans in RO16(one of whom was an invite) and 7 Protoss 1 Terran in RO8.
We can see a clear trend in more than just "the TvP". On the top Blizzard removes every map except the most imbalanced one(I don't think any other map has 63 % win rate like Cyber Forest) and adds a gimicky one... seriously.
I didn't say there wasn't a clear trend (quite the opposite). But I also think some of the players who got "upset" in the Ro32 didn't play very well and just blaming balance wouldn't do that justice. Even premier Terran whiner INnoVation said he didn't play well against Patience.
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On May 09 2019 04:05 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 03:58 Xain0n wrote:On May 09 2019 03:22 Moonerz wrote:On May 09 2019 03:01 Xain0n wrote:On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 08 2019 23:20 Elentos wrote:On May 08 2019 22:27 Lexender wrote:On May 08 2019 21:42 Durnuu wrote:On May 08 2019 21:40 Argonauta wrote:
8 tosses out of 12.. maybe 9 out of 12.... Though to be fair, in the end it only boils down to one, maybe two upsets (Patience obviously, and some people would argue Hurricane to be an upset). Everything else was expected An 8/3/3 split doesn't happens just because of 1-2 upsets. 2 different outcomes and it's 6/4/4, which would be fine since the ideal race distribution in Ro16 is 6/5/5. Though since it's unlikely sOs is eliminated in groups, we're technically 3 upsets (let's blame Patience, Hurricane and PartinG) away from balanced distribution. While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Zerg had 1 upset this RO32 with Impact topping his group while Rogue and Solar got knocked out. Terran had 1 upset this RO32 with Fantasy while Maru and Cure got knocked out. No terran topped his group. Protoss had 3 upsets this RO 32 with Patience, Hurricane and Parting. Zest got knocked out, in 5/7 groups protoss topped their group. Also the argument "only" three upsets makes it sound like Trap and herO were very favored in group F against Scarlett and Keen. I don't really think thats correct, I would say that was a very open group and Scarlett very well could have advanced. It just so happens protoss seems to win almost every group and they seem to knock all the other races out. Sure it could be pure chance, maybe Patience, Hurricane and Parting are hitting their peak but you know what, this isn't the first tournament we see this pattern. For some reason the universe seems to make protoss get full house on pure chance 10 times in a row, no problem though guys, its just luck. PartinG beating Cure isn't really an upset and the idea he would be peaking in 2019 is hilarious while Patience has been playing better than usual the whole year, he seems to be slowly regaining his 2016's shape; Hurricane's victories against Rogue and Solar came unexpected but we can say he deserved to advance. Protoss have been overperforming in the last month, slaughtering Terran in the qualifiers of the Super Tournament(not so much in the event going 8-9 in maps overall) and, especially, Zerg on the main stage(4-0 in series). In Code S, they are having a quite impressive conversion rate into the ro16 at the expense of both Terran and Zerg; however, as Charoisaur says, Korea in 2019 is a Protoss heavy environment, simply looking at the field we could have reasonably expected seven Protoss to make it to the ro16. Zerg having problems in Code S is hardly a surprise but they are struggling too much with PvZ in comparison to the past(not to mention cheese and timing pushes are increased so that the matchup is faster, more brutal and, to my tastes at least, less enjoyable to watch); Terran are at least winning quite often in TvZ in this tournament while Zerg are just underwhelming(so weird I instead mostly see people complaining of how broken TvP is in their opinion). If this trend goes on(it has to be noted foreign Protoss didn't have comparably strong showings) probably some balance revision is due(Warp prism/Immortal range, maybe?); however, it's not like we come from a period of Protoss domination like the constant balance whine would suggest. I dont know why you always revert to saying "it's not a period of Protoss domination". They have a big patch at the end of the year and since then we have seen these types of results. Past patch/years balance means nothing in this discussion Because I find important to remark people have always complained about Protoss being too strong, even when there was no reason at all to do so. This year Protoss won Super Tournament and WCS Winter NA; again, not exactly a dominating performance and not a single PvP final; recently they seem a little too strong in Korea but I would personally wait before nerfing them. Winning tournaments isn't all there is to having a "dominating performance" 7/8 top 8 Super Tournament is pretty dominant to me. I guess your definition is a little different.
Protoss did not dominate Code S S1 and shared IEM Katowice with Zerg; there was no korean Protoss at WESG. In WCS Winter, they did well in NA but not kind of bad in EU.
Super Tournament is just one tournament, not to mention 7/8 P in ro8 produced a PvT final.
Let's see what happens in Code S ro16.
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Czech Republic12125 Posts
On May 09 2019 04:31 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 02:04 deacon.frost wrote:
But this is after IEM where we had ZvPCraft. This is after the GSL ST1 where we had 2 Terrans in RO16(one of whom was an invite) and 7 Protoss 1 Terran in RO8.
We can see a clear trend in more than just "the TvP". On the top Blizzard removes every map except the most imbalanced one(I don't think any other map has 63 % win rate like Cyber Forest) and adds a gimicky one... seriously.
I didn't say there wasn't a clear trend (quite the opposite). But I also think some of the players who got "upset" in the Ro32 didn't play very well and just blaming balance wouldn't do that justice. Even premier Terran whiner INnoVation said he didn't play well against Patience.
I don't want to blame balance on shitty map pool. First we need to fix maps and maybe with better map pool we will see more balanced outcome.
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On May 09 2019 03:01 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 08 2019 23:20 Elentos wrote:On May 08 2019 22:27 Lexender wrote:On May 08 2019 21:42 Durnuu wrote:On May 08 2019 21:40 Argonauta wrote:
8 tosses out of 12.. maybe 9 out of 12.... Though to be fair, in the end it only boils down to one, maybe two upsets (Patience obviously, and some people would argue Hurricane to be an upset). Everything else was expected An 8/3/3 split doesn't happens just because of 1-2 upsets. 2 different outcomes and it's 6/4/4, which would be fine since the ideal race distribution in Ro16 is 6/5/5. Though since it's unlikely sOs is eliminated in groups, we're technically 3 upsets (let's blame Patience, Hurricane and PartinG) away from balanced distribution. While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Zerg had 1 upset this RO32 with Impact topping his group while Rogue and Solar got knocked out. Terran had 1 upset this RO32 with Fantasy while Maru and Cure got knocked out. No terran topped his group. Protoss had 3 upsets this RO 32 with Patience, Hurricane and Parting. Zest got knocked out, in 5/7 groups protoss topped their group. Also the argument "only" three upsets makes it sound like Trap and herO were very favored in group F against Scarlett and Keen. I don't really think thats correct, I would say that was a very open group and Scarlett very well could have advanced. It just so happens protoss seems to win almost every group and they seem to knock all the other races out. Sure it could be pure chance, maybe Patience, Hurricane and Parting are hitting their peak but you know what, this isn't the first tournament we see this pattern. For some reason the universe seems to make protoss get full house on pure chance 10 times in a row, no problem though guys, its just luck. PartinG beating Cure isn't really an upset and the idea he would be peaking in 2019 is hilarious while Patience has been playing better than usual the whole year, he seems to be slowly regaining his 2016's shape; Hurricane's victories against Rogue and Solar came unexpected but we can say he deserved to advance. Protoss have been overperforming in the last month, slaughtering Terran in the qualifiers of the Super Tournament(not so much in the event going 8-9 in maps overall) and, especially, Zerg on the main stage(4-0 in series). In Code S, they are having a quite impressive conversion rate into the ro16 at the expense of both Terran and Zerg; however, as Charoisaur says, Korea in 2019 is a Protoss heavy environment, simply looking at the field we could have reasonably expected seven Protoss to make it to the ro16. Zerg having problems in Code S is hardly a surprise but they are struggling too much with PvZ in comparison to the past(not to mention cheese and timing pushes are increased so that the matchup is faster, more brutal and, to my tastes at least, less enjoyable to watch); Terran are at least winning quite often in TvZ in this tournament while Zerg are just underwhelming(so weird I instead mostly see people complaining of how broken TvP is in their opinion). If this trend goes on(it has to be noted foreign Protoss didn't have comparably strong showings) probably some balance revision is due(Warp prism/Immortal range, maybe?); however, it's not like we come from a period of Protoss domination like the constant balance whine would suggest.
There is so much you are saying I disagree with.
1) For one Parting beating Cure is a huge upset, Parting has shown good result in 1!!! tournament, he got semi finals at super tournament. Meanwhile some players get semfinals multiple times and are seen as weak and underpferforming, Parting shows decent result once and all of a sudden he is S tier. He got to the semifinals beating Ragnarok and Hurricane, wow......
Parting DID beat Innovation in the qualifiers though and I am loving his play and to see him back but this senseless overhype from one result is just not reasonable.
2) We ARE in a period of utter protoss domination, I guess there was that one time all the zerg players peaked at the same time, that time gomtvt period where all terran players peaked and now we got this time when all protoss players are peaking. Definitely only because all of the protoss players got good at the same time, nothing to do with balance.
3) The fact who wins a tournament, or the fact that Gumi did make it to the finals even though he was 1 terran among 7 protoss in top 8 says absolutely nothing about balance. If it was 31 protoss and 1 terran in the RO32 but the terran player won it would still be an insane indicator of inbalance. Stop going on about who wins in the end, it doesn't matter, Maru can win forever while no other terran ever gets past RO16 and you know what that doesn't mean terran is OP, quite the opposite.
Korea doesn't have more protoss players than zerg or terran players, looking at code S and the korean professional players that were either seeded or attempted the qualifiers for this season of code S. 13 protoss, 11 terran, 11 zerg, sure there are 2 more protoss players. Doesn't explain while so many protoss players all of a sudden is doing so well while the other races are struggling, even some of the top players.
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On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do  Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao
Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias.
The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it.
It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation.
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On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation.
Completely disagree.
First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people.
Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now.
Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here)
Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff
Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff.
the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them)
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On May 09 2019 05:17 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 03:01 Xain0n wrote:On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On May 08 2019 23:20 Elentos wrote:On May 08 2019 22:27 Lexender wrote:On May 08 2019 21:42 Durnuu wrote:On May 08 2019 21:40 Argonauta wrote:
8 tosses out of 12.. maybe 9 out of 12.... Though to be fair, in the end it only boils down to one, maybe two upsets (Patience obviously, and some people would argue Hurricane to be an upset). Everything else was expected An 8/3/3 split doesn't happens just because of 1-2 upsets. 2 different outcomes and it's 6/4/4, which would be fine since the ideal race distribution in Ro16 is 6/5/5. Though since it's unlikely sOs is eliminated in groups, we're technically 3 upsets (let's blame Patience, Hurricane and PartinG) away from balanced distribution. While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Zerg had 1 upset this RO32 with Impact topping his group while Rogue and Solar got knocked out. Terran had 1 upset this RO32 with Fantasy while Maru and Cure got knocked out. No terran topped his group. Protoss had 3 upsets this RO 32 with Patience, Hurricane and Parting. Zest got knocked out, in 5/7 groups protoss topped their group. Also the argument "only" three upsets makes it sound like Trap and herO were very favored in group F against Scarlett and Keen. I don't really think thats correct, I would say that was a very open group and Scarlett very well could have advanced. It just so happens protoss seems to win almost every group and they seem to knock all the other races out. Sure it could be pure chance, maybe Patience, Hurricane and Parting are hitting their peak but you know what, this isn't the first tournament we see this pattern. For some reason the universe seems to make protoss get full house on pure chance 10 times in a row, no problem though guys, its just luck. PartinG beating Cure isn't really an upset and the idea he would be peaking in 2019 is hilarious while Patience has been playing better than usual the whole year, he seems to be slowly regaining his 2016's shape; Hurricane's victories against Rogue and Solar came unexpected but we can say he deserved to advance. Protoss have been overperforming in the last month, slaughtering Terran in the qualifiers of the Super Tournament(not so much in the event going 8-9 in maps overall) and, especially, Zerg on the main stage(4-0 in series). In Code S, they are having a quite impressive conversion rate into the ro16 at the expense of both Terran and Zerg; however, as Charoisaur says, Korea in 2019 is a Protoss heavy environment, simply looking at the field we could have reasonably expected seven Protoss to make it to the ro16. Zerg having problems in Code S is hardly a surprise but they are struggling too much with PvZ in comparison to the past(not to mention cheese and timing pushes are increased so that the matchup is faster, more brutal and, to my tastes at least, less enjoyable to watch); Terran are at least winning quite often in TvZ in this tournament while Zerg are just underwhelming(so weird I instead mostly see people complaining of how broken TvP is in their opinion). If this trend goes on(it has to be noted foreign Protoss didn't have comparably strong showings) probably some balance revision is due(Warp prism/Immortal range, maybe?); however, it's not like we come from a period of Protoss domination like the constant balance whine would suggest. There is so much you are saying I disagree with. 1) For one Parting beating Cure is a huge upset, Parting has shown good result in 1!!! tournament, he got semi finals at super tournament. Meanwhile some players get semfinals multiple times and are seen as weak and underpferforming, Parting shows decent result once and all of a sudden he is S tier. He got to the semifinals beating Ragnarok and Hurricane, wow...... Parting DID beat Innovation in the qualifiers though and I am loving his play and to see him back but this senseless overhype from one result is just not reasonable. 2) We ARE in a period of utter protoss domination, I guess there was that one time all the zerg players peaked at the same time, that time gomtvt period where all terran players peaked and now we got this time when all protoss players are peaking. Definitely only because all of the protoss players got good at the same time, nothing to do with balance. 3) The fact who wins a tournament, or the fact that Gumi did make it to the finals even though he was 1 terran among 7 protoss in top 8 says absolutely nothing about balance. If it was 31 protoss and 1 terran in the RO32 but the terran player won it would still be an insane indicator of inbalance. Stop going on about who wins in the end, it doesn't matter, Maru can win forever while no other terran ever gets past RO16 and you know what that doesn't mean terran is OP, quite the opposite. Korea doesn't have more protoss players than zerg or terran players, looking at code S and the korean professional players that were either seeded or attempted the qualifiers for this season of code S. 13 protoss, 11 terran, 11 zerg, sure there are 2 more protoss players. Doesn't explain while so many protoss players all of a sudden is doing so well while the other races are struggling, even some of the top players.
Aligulac doesn't tell us everything but it generally is a good indicator of how proficient someone is at a certain matchup(especially against people playing in the same circuit): before their match today, PartinG was 2476 in TvP and Cure 2491 in PvT; they proceeded to evenly share maps and series, PartinG just won the second one.
What is your idea of utter domination? Take a look at what happened in the first five months of 2014, then tell me.
I agree Protoss might indeed be a little too strong at the moment, especially because Zerg are not finding proper answers to WP-Immortal(probably Classic's builds against Rogue and Dark showed the other Protoss the way).
The race distribution of one single tournament doesn't say anything regarding balance.
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I can't believe PartinG qualifying over Cure is considered a huge upset...
Parting at his peak is arguably the greatest micro'er of all time. There's a literal GSL award named after him. And it's not like he stomped Cure. he went 3-3 vs Cure and only got to advance because Parting got to play DRG while Cure had to play Dark. Parting underperformed imo
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On May 09 2019 05:53 BerserkSword wrote:
I can't believe PartinG qualifying over Cure is considered a huge upset...
Parting at his peak is arguably the greatest micro'er of all time. There's a literal GSL award named after him. And it's not like he stomped Cure. he went 3-3 vs Cure and only got to advance because Parting got to play DRG while Cure had to play Dark. Parting underperformed imo
So nowadays we are considering what the players were like at their peak when we look at if someone is favored? That really doesn't make sense, DGR and Taeja aren't doing so hot right now and neither were Parting until super tournament.
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On May 09 2019 06:04 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 05:53 BerserkSword wrote:
I can't believe PartinG qualifying over Cure is considered a huge upset...
Parting at his peak is arguably the greatest micro'er of all time. There's a literal GSL award named after him. And it's not like he stomped Cure. he went 3-3 vs Cure and only got to advance because Parting got to play DRG while Cure had to play Dark. Parting underperformed imo So nowadays we are considering what the players were like at their peak when we look at if someone is favored? That really doesn't make sense, DGR and Taeja aren't doing so hot right now and neither were Parting until super tournament.
It's not the only factor, but I believe it does play a role.
You cannot reach the pinnacle of the game at any point in time without excellent understanding of the game and/or phenomenal mechanics.
Parting never left for the military like Taeja and DRG did. When he was away from SC2 he was playing games still. His micor didn't fall off a cliff, and the mind that led him to win a world championship didnt disappear. He's been involved in sc2 and gaming more than DRG and Taeja, who were completely cut off and only recently got back.
and the fact that he got far in the last super tournament is just a further testament that he shouldnt be an underdog compared to cure. It probably means he is getting back in form
he was far from the underdog in my eyes and that's why i had him advancing in my liquibets. Parting's caliber showed itself with that double warp prism archon dt drop which won him g1. Cure is just another cookie cutter terran player
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Northern Ireland23287 Posts
I’ve watched every game, rewatching quite a few series too of quite a lot of recent tournaments, I’m not seeing a huge amount that actually concerns me massively about balance.
At least nothing glaring, or anything that I could envisage tweaking without big knock-on effects, maybe a prism range nerf would be worth looking at.
WP Parting, he actually played really damn well against Cure in the decider in a real standard kind of game that he executed really well too.
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On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them)
How many of those games were cheeses 🤔
High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced.
RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs.
Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol.
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On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol.
Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size?
Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players.
I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game.
This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame).
You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested.
Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure.
Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony
then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf.
Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf.
This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map
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On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol. Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size? Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players. I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game. This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame). You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested. Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure. Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf. Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf. This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map
I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments.
I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion.
Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that.
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The other issue is there are only 3 legit Zerg contenders in the GSL and they also unfortunately tend to be chokers. Rogue played abysmally the other night, and no need to talk about soO and Dark.
I think part of that also comes back to being the reactionary race - its hard to think clearly and be the move-taker when you're in a pressured situation.
But Serral is a good example of how dominant the race can be if you can play clear minded and read your opponents moves.
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On May 09 2019 08:37 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol. Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size? Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players. I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game. This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame). You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested. Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure. Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf. Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf. This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments. I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion. Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that.
I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards.
What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament
How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches?
Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves?
Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills?
Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors
Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors?
Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S.
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Northern Ireland23287 Posts
On May 09 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 08:37 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol. Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size? Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players. I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game. This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame). You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested. Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure. Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf. Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf. This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments. I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion. Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that. I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards. What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches? Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves? Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills? Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors? Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S.
Everything can seem unfair if one phrased it like that. Scarlett’s unit composition was extremely iffy against Keen that game, casters and myself felt so long before that engagement and it proved to be a misjudgment.
Dark really botched that game against Gumiho pretty hardcore, although I do love Gumiho so as a fan I was OK with that.
SC2 even more than BW is full of extremely brutal unit interactions and you have to be on top of your game to avoid getting into them, it’s what separates the bad from the decent, the decent from the good and the good from from the great.
Zerg have plenty of tools themselves, I’ll be interested to see what Dark especially can show in this GSL given how good he is at controlling those really technical lategame armies.
It does seem an issue for sure that Zergs kind of suck most when they have to rely on roaches though. It’s not like bio in terms of microability and its hard counters counter it really hard. This isn’t new alas and I’m not sure what any solution would look lioe.
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On May 09 2019 10:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 08:37 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol. Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size? Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players. I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game. This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame). You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested. Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure. Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf. Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf. This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments. I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion. Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that. I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards. What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches? Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves? Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills? Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors? Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S. Everything can seem unfair if one phrased it like that. Scarlett’s unit composition was extremely iffy against Keen that game, casters and myself felt so long before that engagement and it proved to be a misjudgment. Dark really botched that game against Gumiho pretty hardcore, although I do love Gumiho so as a fan I was OK with that. SC2 even more than BW is full of extremely brutal unit interactions and you have to be on top of your game to avoid getting into them, it’s what separates the bad from the decent, the decent from the good and the good from from the great. Zerg have plenty of tools themselves, I’ll be interested to see what Dark especially can show in this GSL given how good he is at controlling those really technical lategame armies. It does seem an issue for sure that Zergs kind of suck most when they have to rely on roaches though. It’s not like bio in terms of microability and its hard counters counter it really hard. This isn’t new alas and I’m not sure what any solution would look lioe.
Which scarlett game are you referring to? g1 or g3? g1 i dont think her decision to move in and attack keen was iify at all. Scarlett had just obliterated many of keen's expensive units and got herself a 40 supply advantage. The attack was smacked down thanks to thors and then it was over for scarlett. This is despite the fact that keen threw away the bulk of his army not once but twice.
In g3 scarlett completely outplayed keen. she was macroing out of her mind. creep spread was insane and she was instantly rebuilding drones. unfortunately for her, the terran mech army was able to wipe her maxed out army out twice over, and she lost the game.
the constant theme we are seeing is that when zerg is forced to fight a unit composition full of tanky heavy hitters (thor and immortal) they just crumble. especially when there is splash damage support. I dont think Dark threw that game against gumiho at all either. Dark had a crazy economic advantage, was up one or two bases including a gold base, double workers, and had a ball of hydras, viper, brood lord tech. Gumiho simply turtled, rebuilt an army, then killed Dark lol
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