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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 02 2019 00:26 Elentos wrote: It's not like Impact should finish higher than Ro16 honestly. Most likely but we are speaking of results here as Solar, Dark, Rogue and soO are all potentially worth more than the placements they seem perpetually condmened tho; on the other hand, Impact looks like ro16 material but he is not stuck there every time(until now, at least). | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On May 02 2019 00:49 starkiller123 wrote: Any decent games today? Zerg went 1-6 against Protoss, so, yes, there were 6. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On May 01 2019 23:04 argonautdice wrote: Zergs and doing poorly in GSL. Name a more iconic duo. BoggyB and whining about Zerg, regardless of the tournament in question. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On May 02 2019 02:07 Ej_ wrote: BoggyB and whining about Zerg, regardless of the tournament in question. I had no problem with Zerg's performance in the Super Tournament or WCS Winter: Americas. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 01 2019 23:42 Boggyb wrote: It should since it is a band aid patch that keeps together a flawed race. The Queen also fits more in WC3 design philosophy in that it is both an economic and military unit which makes it a giant aberration in SC2. The redesign Zerg needed: Delete Queen (combine that with deleting mules and chrono) Remove vision from creep Make whatever other changes are needed to make that playable (probably involves making Hydras tier 1) I completely agree, but they will never delete the queen and remove vision from creep at this point in the game the best they can do is fix zerg's weakness of being stuck with garbage ass roaches for so long i don't even know why roaches are in the game tbh. they didnt need to make hydras stronger in SC2 at the cost of them coming later and being more expensive. the roach was a failure for zerg design wise since its inception in wol when its gimmick was the extremely fast HP regeneration. all roaches do is give terran and protoss players MORE micro potential against zerg. it's absolutely idiotic that a well placed siege tank or a couple of micro'd immortal can kill droves of roaches, the supposed meat shield of zerg. and now you see protoss players like hurricane, instead of going stargate heavy, getting more muscle on the ground to build up and hold off high roach numbers until robo units are available (meanwhile zest stuck with phoenix openers and got rocked). and of course terran players continue to stomp zerg players. Maybe the roach should be replaced with a nerfed ravager and i think the game would be better if zerg t1 comp would be something like ravager hydra (both weakened). make ravager somewhat more vulnerable while its bile is going off (like diruptor can't move while nova is en route). cheaper t1 hydra but lower hp and damage a bit so it doesnt shred every single gateway unit, and give it bonus damage to armor so zerg still has a way to fight air/robo/mech | ||
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SoupedUpHellion
20 Posts
Honestly I'd like queens to stay, but Zerg really needs 4 larva per inject back. That's what I think. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote: Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air what he said is not true though. there have been plenty of games where the zerg commits to muta and just steamrolls the protoss. phoenix counter mutas on paper of course but there are a few things to take into consideration 1) zerg tech switches are much faster. if you only just got out 1 phoenix when 8 mutas are flying to your base you have a major problem. 2) going off the back of zerg tech switching, if the zerg decides to commit to more mutas, then the onus is on the protoss to properly respond. most protoss will not blindly pump phoenix after the first wave of mutas is fended off/contained because phoenix will be dead supply against the ground army zerg can pop out at that point 4) archons destroy mutas on paper but they are slow and clunky while mutas are fast af and can even magic box. so while your archon is busy trying to get past your wall in or trying to rush through bases, the mutas can be ransacking the mineral line 3) if youre talking about fighting for air superiority, zerg actually have the advantage because they have the corruptors, which can keep the phonix away from mutas. late game zerg has the advantage as well, as the carrier was heavily nerfed and zerg casters are really good at that point all I'm saying is that zerg can contest protoss with air units, and it happens in pro games As for why solar didnt make mutas against hurricane? it's because hurricane was stalker and sentry heavy instead of the more conventional immortal archon chargelot comp (which is what mutas really screw over). you cannot blindside a protoss players with mutas when the protoss players has that much anti air, and zerg cannot beat stalker immortal sentry comps without hydra/lurkers | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4129 Posts
On May 02 2019 04:29 BerserkSword wrote: what he said is not true though. there have been plenty of games where the zerg commits to muta and just steamrolls the protoss. phoenix counter mutas on paper of course but there are a few things to take into consideration 1) zerg tech switches are much faster. if you only just got out 1 phoenix when 8 mutas are flying to your base you have a major problem. 2) going off the back of zerg tech switching, if the zerg decides to commit to more mutas, then the onus is on the protoss to properly respond. most protoss will not blindly pump phoenix after the first wave of mutas is fended off/contained because phoenix will be dead supply against the ground army zerg can pop out at that point 4) archons destroy mutas on paper but they are slow and clunky while mutas are fast af and can even magic box. so while your archon is busy trying to get past your wall in or trying to rush through bases, the mutas can be ransacking the mineral line 3) if youre talking about fighting for air superiority, zerg actually have the advantage because they have the corruptors, which can keep the phonix away from mutas. late game zerg has the advantage as well, as the carrier was heavily nerfed and zerg casters are really good at that point all I'm saying is that zerg can contest protoss with air units, and it happens in pro games As for why solar didnt make mutas against hurricane? it's because hurricane was stalker and sentry heavy instead of the more conventional immortal archon chargelot comp (which is what mutas really screw over). you cannot blindside a protoss players with mutas when the protoss players has that much anti air, and zerg cannot beat stalker immortal sentry comps without hydra/lurkers Honestly, thats how I understand zerg as well, mutas are not there to fight toe to toe with archons or other anti-air. However, what I find kind of odd is the fact that both terran and protoss (especially protoss) can fly a shuttle over the zerg continuously and endlessly until the end of the game, 1 shuttle can keep the zerg honest for unlimited period of time and the zerg has no counterplay besides of running around like a fool, trying to chase the winds xDD. Where is the Scourge equivalent from BW that allows them to shut air harass and force the other races to actually have to outplay the zerg to be able to hurt their economy? | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On May 02 2019 04:55 M2 wrote: Honestly, thats how I understand zerg as well, mutas are not there to fight toe to toe with archons or other anti-air. However, what I find kind of odd is the fact that both terran and protoss (especially protoss) can fly a shuttle over the zerg continuously and endlessly until the end of the game, 1 shuttle can keep the zerg honest for unlimited period of time and the zerg has no counterplay besides of running around like a fool, trying to chase the winds xDD. Where is the Scourge equivalent from BW that allows them to shut air harass and force the other races to actually have to outplay the zerg to be able to hurt their economy? I'm glad that you used the expression "keep the Zerg honest". The reason Zerg doesn't have something easily accessible without a major trade off that lets them shut down harassment is their win rates would hit 100% if they did. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 02 2019 04:55 M2 wrote: Honestly, thats how I understand zerg as well, mutas are not there to fight toe to toe with archons or other anti-air. However, what I find kind of odd is the fact that both terran and protoss (especially protoss) can fly a shuttle over the zerg continuously and endlessly until the end of the game, 1 shuttle can keep the zerg honest for unlimited period of time and the zerg has no counterplay besides of running around like a fool, trying to chase the winds xDD What does "keeping the zerg honest" mean though? making the zerg player pay attention and move around queens and roaches? the zerg player then has an army that can overwhelm the protoss army in a straight up fight....then what. the reason why protoss needs to keep "zerg honest" is because if they don't the zerg just outgrows them and steamrolls them. this is the crux of stargate + archon drop harass. Protoss players use this to try and even the odds when it comes to expansion/map control vs zerg. this is what zest tried to do and it failed miserably because queens have a range of 8 and the zerg player just has to pay attention to keep the archons from killing nothing more than a queen, overloard, and or a few lings. and oracles and phoenix cant fend off a midgame zerg ground army that's why you see players like hurricane who are not confident in their relative skill/later game play just say fuck it and go for two base timing attacks. he decided to live or die on the two base attack. and to be honest, solar threw game 3 and gifted hurricane the win, because hurricane had the weaker economy and did not have the unit composition to break a lurker wall on creep. solar just needed to sit back and get the bigger army he eventually would have against terran it's a completely different story because it's ridiculously difficult for midgame zerg armies to break terran bases, while terran can project so much power for so little supply | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4129 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On May 02 2019 04:04 BerserkSword wrote: I completely agree, but they will never delete the queen and remove vision from creep at this point in the game the best they can do is fix zerg's weakness of being stuck with garbage ass roaches for so long i don't even know why roaches are in the game tbh. they didnt need to make hydras stronger in SC2 at the cost of them coming later and being more expensive. the roach was a failure for zerg design wise since its inception in wol when its gimmick was the extremely fast HP regeneration. all roaches do is give terran and protoss players MORE micro potential against zerg. it's absolutely idiotic that a well placed siege tank or a couple of micro'd immortal can kill droves of roaches, the supposed meat shield of zerg. and now you see protoss players like hurricane, instead of going stargate heavy, getting more muscle on the ground to build up and hold off high roach numbers until robo units are available (meanwhile zest stuck with phoenix openers and got rocked). and of course terran players continue to stomp zerg players. Maybe the roach should be replaced with a nerfed ravager and i think the game would be better if zerg t1 comp would be something like ravager hydra (both weakened). make ravager somewhat more vulnerable while its bile is going off (like diruptor can't move while nova is en route). cheaper t1 hydra but lower hp and damage a bit so it doesnt shred every single gateway unit, and give it bonus damage to armor so zerg still has a way to fight air/robo/mech Roaches are bad because... they don't received any buffs since WOL. The problem isn't roach or zerg design, it's the way they introduce some gamebreaking patch like 70 dmg for tank while they don't balance at all the rest. When you decide to nerf zerg eco, don't buff some zerg units, and give massive buffs to their counter, they become simply bad, that's intended. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25930 Posts
On May 02 2019 07:12 Tyrhanius wrote: Roaches are bad because... they don't received any buffs since WOL. The problem isn't roach or zerg design, it's the way they introduce some gamebreaking patch like 70 dmg for tank while they don't balance at all the rest. When you decide to nerf zerg eco, don't buff some zerg units, and give massive buffs to their counter, they become simply bad, that's intended. Surely Zerg design does play a big part too though? Whatever units they do have they tend to have a lot of them, so any changes will have a big effect, also Zergs have really good map vision and other tools that make changes really dicey to make, in PvZ especially. Perhaps some tweaking is needed I wouldn’t necessarily dispute that either, it’s a bloody hard game to balance because they kept just adding more flashy stuff to avoid doing more fundamental alterations back in the day. The warp prism in its current state is a bit of a case in point, it is really bloody strong both in pickup micro and augmenting pushes, but also just flying into bases. But without it Protoss is boned as things stand. I’d at least lower the pickup range so there’s more counter-micro against it that’s possible. I like my flashy micro but not when it’s very difficult to counteract from the other player. | ||
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Topin
Peru10086 Posts
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