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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51453 Posts
Poll: Who Advances?Solar & Classic (11) 58% Hurricane & Classic (8) 42% Classic & TRUE (0) 0% Solar & Hurricane (0) 0% TRUE & Solar (0) 0% Hurricane & TRUE (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: Who Advances? (Vote): Classic & TRUE
(Vote): Solar & Hurricane
(Vote): Hurricane & Classic
(Vote): TRUE & Solar
(Vote): Solar & Classic
(Vote): Hurricane & TRUE
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So Classic has pretty much the best Oracle micro in the world for 5 years right?
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Its oddly quiet in here huh?
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I'm glad progamers are constantly improving, otherwise I'd think TRUE got a lot worse since his GSL Ro4/WCS win days!
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Classic just took TRUE behind the shed and shot him in the head with green lasers.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and claim Classic is better than TRUE
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Classic looks really good at the moment.
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On May 01 2019 18:51 Penev wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and claim Classic is better than TRUE
Armani might be better than TRUE too
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Wow that looked easy... Classic gonna win GSL for sure!
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Hopefully Solar vs Hurricane can be more competitive 
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Well that first match definitely wasn't a Renaissance of any kind.
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Solar is still the last Zerg to win a Starleague in Korea.
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is this the weakest group?
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On May 01 2019 18:59 IshinShishi wrote:
is this the weakest group?
There's a group with Cure, DRG and PartinG.
Solar by the way has failed in the Ro32 of GSL in LotV 6 times in 9 attempts. Wonderful.
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Protoss just wrecks through everything xD
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first time I see someone using hallucinated zealots, looked quite interesting
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On May 01 2019 18:46 Morbidius wrote:
Its oddly quiet in here huh?
I suspect that's because there are no Terran in this group.
Korean Zerg seem to be in deep crysis(even more than usual), if Solar loses this it should be the fifth consecutive ZvP loss in a bo3 since Super Tournament.
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On May 01 2019 19:09 Xain0n wrote:I suspect that's because there are no Terran in this group. Korean Zerg seem to be in deep crysis(even more than usual), if Solar loses this it should be the fifth consecutive ZvP loss in a bo3 since Super Tournament.
I doubt people would care more if KeeN were to replace TRUE in this group.
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On May 01 2019 19:09 Xain0n wrote:I suspect that's because there are no Terran in this group. Korean Zerg seem to be in deep crysis(even more than usual), if Solar loses this it should be the fifth consecutive ZvP loss in a bo3 since Super Tournament.
Just play like Impact
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Real question, what broke ZvP in toss favor?
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Two bases immortal sentry=> free win vs Zerg
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bring serral so zerg can look competitive in the GSL lmao
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 01 2019 19:16 Tyrhanius wrote:
Two bases immortal sentry=> free win vs Zerg
WoL, WoL never changes.
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as a person who recently came into SC2 from BW, one of the things that I genuine cannot understand yet is how Protosses win vs Zergs with 30 supply less mid game with timings attacks without any kind of splash damage. Without splash damage being the key element, I would understand if they are able to trade, even trade favorably, its a different game, its not BW, but straight forward killing the Zergs,really looks odd to me
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On May 01 2019 19:16 Morbidius wrote:
Real question, what broke ZvP in toss favor?
seems like toss figured out strong timings they can do with the cheaper robo
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How ZvP goes:
This Zerg is clearly miles ahead of his protoss opponent, he should read his allin and easily deflect it.
Zerg reads the allin, still gets rolled as if he droned to 88.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 01 2019 19:10 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:09 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 18:46 Morbidius wrote:
Its oddly quiet in here huh? I suspect that's because there are no Terran in this group. Korean Zerg seem to be in deep crysis(even more than usual), if Solar loses this it should be the fifth consecutive ZvP loss in a bo3 since Super Tournament. I doubt people would care more if KeeN were to replace TRUE in this group. .
An army of enraged whiners would be crying out loud demanding Protoss to be removed from the game.
Uh ye, I was forgetting Impact, the true savior of korean Zerg!
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 01 2019 19:17 M2 wrote:
as a person who recently came into SC2 from BW, one of the things that I genuine cannot understand yet is how Protosses win vs Zergs with 30 supply less mid game with timings attacks without any kind of splash damage. Without splash damage being the key element, I would understand if they are able to trade, even trade favorably, its a different game, its not BW, but straight forward killing the Zergs,really looks odd to me
Because Zerg units are garbage?
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On May 01 2019 19:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:16 Morbidius wrote:
Real question, what broke ZvP in toss favor? seems like toss figured out strong timings they can do with the cheaper robo
should it warrant an immortal nerf?
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On May 01 2019 19:16 Morbidius wrote:
Real question, what broke ZvP in toss favor?
Probably the fact that due to overlord drop nerf, nyndus nerf, Protoss can go right into robo first without any fear and attack at a timing where zerg can't have anything else than roach/ravager.
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Both Classic vs. TRUE and Solar vs. Hurricane were very one-sided. Hoping for more competitive matches.
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On May 01 2019 19:17 M2 wrote:
as a person who recently came into SC2 from BW, one of the things that I genuine cannot understand yet is how Protosses win vs Zergs with 30 supply less mid game with timings attacks without any kind of splash damage. Without splash damage being the key element, I would understand if they are able to trade, even trade favorably, its a different game, its not BW, but straight forward killing the Zergs,really looks odd to me
My understanding of BW is superficial but I think Protoss supply in sc2 work like Zerg's in BW, they almost always appear to be lower than the opponents(especially in PvZ).
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On May 01 2019 19:19 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:18 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Morbidius wrote:
Real question, what broke ZvP in toss favor? seems like toss figured out strong timings they can do with the cheaper robo should it warrant an immortal nerf?
Immortal nerf would affect every stage of the matchup though, not just the early-game.
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This looks like 2012 all over again, Zerg knows the allin is coming and still loses to it.
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On May 01 2019 19:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:19 Penev wrote:On May 01 2019 19:18 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Morbidius wrote:
Real question, what broke ZvP in toss favor? seems like toss figured out strong timings they can do with the cheaper robo should it warrant an immortal nerf? Immortal nerf would affect every stage of the matchup though, not just the early-game.
Sure. But it seems just silly strong atm. With the prism juggling and all.
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reduce both force field and immortal shields duration
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On May 01 2019 19:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:16 Morbidius wrote:
Real question, what broke ZvP in toss favor? seems like toss figured out strong timings they can do with the cheaper robo
True, Nydus nerf surely has a huge part in this new meta.
I actually loved 2018-early 2019 ZvP, Nydus made it seem too strong in Zerg favor but now those timing pushes appear so hard to hold for Zerg, it's kind of boring to watch them 24/7.
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On May 01 2019 19:19 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:16 Morbidius wrote:
Real question, what broke ZvP in toss favor? Probably the fact that due to overlord drop nerf, nyndus nerf, Protoss can go right into robo first without any fear and attack at a timing where zerg can't have anything else than roach/ravager.
Nydus is actually better vs stargate than vs robo so I don't see how that one had anything to with immortals lol
Whiner
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Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both.
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On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both.
remove shields
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/s4cM0r0.png)
Lol good to know not to bother watching the vods for this group
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On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both.
Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens.
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On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens.
Foreign Protoss players may not even play this style though as most of them play much more conservative compared to korean ones.
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On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens.
GSL vs the World is still a while away.
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On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens.
Non Korean Zergs are the new standard for good zerg play. We need he who must not be named back.
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On May 01 2019 19:34 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens. Non Korean Zergs are the new standard for good zerg play. We need he who must not be named back.
sniper?
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even though it might be a little offtopic here. Does anyone know why they put this weird GSL Cobalt map in this season?
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On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens.
What's a non korean Zerg? A fake collective noun for Serral? Reynor lost to Creator in IEM qualifier, Scarlett lost to herO twice in Code S season 1.. Other non-korean zergs getting slaughtered in ZvP in international tournaments is just common sense
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On May 01 2019 19:37 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens. What's a non korean Zerg? A fake collective noun for Serral? Reynor lost to Creator in IEM qualifier, Scarlett lost to herO twice in Code S season 1.. Other non-korean zergs getting slaughtered in ZvP in international tournaments is just common sense
you hit the nail right on the head
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Hurricane holds the attack like a god and then falls apart to 3 adepts
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On May 01 2019 19:37 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens. What's a non korean Zerg? A fake collective noun for Serral? Reynor lost to Creator in IEM qualifier, Scarlett lost to herO twice in Code S season 1.. Other non-korean zergs getting slaughtered in ZvP in international tournaments is just common sense
Serral winning of course. When he doesn't win he clearly has the black plague or something so its not relevant.
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On May 01 2019 19:37 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens. What's a non korean Zerg? A fake collective noun for Serral? Reynor lost to Creator in IEM qualifier, Scarlett lost to herO twice in Code S season 1.. Other non-korean zergs getting slaughtered in ZvP in international tournaments is just common sense
Nerchio?
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pretty funny game, classic lost every big engagement but came back ahead through harass
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On May 01 2019 19:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:37 Need wrote:On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens. What's a non korean Zerg? A fake collective noun for Serral? Reynor lost to Creator in IEM qualifier, Scarlett lost to herO twice in Code S season 1.. Other non-korean zergs getting slaughtered in ZvP in international tournaments is just common sense Nerchio?
He's destroying those koreans in the LR!
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soft wind got a big advantage 3 times in that game and Classic still won through split army + harass shenanigans, what a weird game
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Incredible pylon placement.
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Why did he cancel the pylon instead of the shield battery? Is 39 supply block part of the build?
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On May 01 2019 19:48 Elentos wrote:
Why did he cancel the pylon instead of the shield battery? Is 39 supply block part of the build?
Wasn't that classics pylon?
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Classic is so good at Oracle control...
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South Korea2105 Posts
samsung players have always been more entertaining than their skt rivals
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Hurricane didn't even see the stargate until the traitor stalker showed it
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On May 01 2019 19:51 Ziggy wrote:
samsung players have always been more entertaining than their skt rivals
They've also always been bigger losers.
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Will we see a 4th base for either player?
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Hurricane up in workers, chases Classic and makes sure to fight before he has +2 vs +1
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95% of the fight without +2. feelsbadman
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I think it was hurricane who thought his halluc archons were real.
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How did Classic win that fight? Better concave?
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That was an awesome game. Hurricane showing he can be a force in the future. Classic still pulling ahead though. He's going to be a force in the next round.
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feels like hurricane could've tried to retreat, Classic did that 3 times in g1 after losing battles just like that and still won
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On May 01 2019 19:58 pdd wrote:
How did Classic win that fight? Better concave?
Better micro, unit control. Specifically targetting
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On May 01 2019 19:58 pdd wrote:
How did Classic win that fight? Better concave?
Bigger army, better angle, Hurricane engaged before +2 and Classic's army didn't waste attacks on the hallucinations unlike Hurricane's.
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Something else that I cannot fully understand as a BW player in SC2 ZvP is why the Zerg has only 2 types of units within 130-140+ limit where also one of the units is a derivative of the other. They cant squeeze different tech until they are maxed out on roaches or what? because the protosses usually attack with 5-6 different type of units at that moment
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On May 01 2019 19:37 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:30 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:26 Morbidius wrote:
Now all that we need is for Zergs and Terrans to come together and suggest a nerf to protoss that benefits them both. Before seriously asking for a Protoss nerf I need to see non korean Zerg slaughtered in ZvP at international tournaments. I hope effective builds to counter these pushes will be found before this happens. What's a non korean Zerg? A fake collective noun for Serral? Reynor lost to Creator in IEM qualifier, Scarlett lost to herO twice in Code S season 1.. Other non-korean zergs getting slaughtered in ZvP in international tournaments is just common sense
I can't feel but surprised every time I realize you are still among us on TL.
Nydus meta is of no interest here(and you are omitting Scarlett beating Dear).
Scarlett herself is playing next week in a group with herO and Trap, let's see if she advances and how she fares against the timing pushes.
It's obvious Serral is the paragon of non korean Zerg, but I am interested to see how every single one of them play against korean Protoss in a moment korean Zerg seem to have no clue.
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On May 01 2019 20:04 M2 wrote:
Something else that I cannot fully understand as a BW player in SC2 ZvP is why the Zerg has only 2 types of units within 130-140+ limit where also one of the units is a derivative of the other. They cant squeeze different tech until they are maxed out on roaches or what? because the protosses usually attack with 5-6 different type of units at that moment
I'm just coming back into the scene again, but from the few games I've watched thus far, hydras are quite common, but generally need to be supported by roaches because of how squishy they are.
Swarm hosts are also quite common to snipe bases when paired with Nyduses.
There are also other niche strategies like ling-baneling drops and ling-baneling-muta (as a tech switch option, but is uncommon nowadays because of how common stargate is in PvZ).
EDIT: yesterday Impact won with Lurkers
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On May 01 2019 20:04 M2 wrote:
Something else that I cannot fully understand as a BW player in SC2 ZvP is why the Zerg has only 2 types of units within 130-140+ limit where also one of the units is a derivative of the other. They cant squeeze different tech until they are maxed out on roaches or what? because the protosses usually attack with 5-6 different type of units at that moment
Short answer: no
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this is when TRUE finds his true.. self, gets out of the group and proceeds to win the whole thing
no?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Is TRUE still playing in WCS?
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On May 01 2019 20:20 deacon.frost wrote:
Is TRUE still playing in WCS?
He was way better when he was playing in WCS.
Saddening to see him cry as well to observe the decline in his play; what happened to you, TRUE?
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Losers game was painful to watch. I wanted to see True put up more of a fight than that. ZvZ is a volatile match up still. Both in BW and SC2.
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Remember a few years back when True broke through and smashed polt with some attractive, aggressive starcraft?
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On May 01 2019 20:30 NoS-Craig wrote:
Losers game was painful to watch. I wanted to see True put up more of a fight than that. ZvZ is a volatile match up still. Both in BW and SC2.
ZvZ is way less volatile in Sc2, Ling Bane as a build definitely is.
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Canada8988 Posts
I was there when True stormed in the WCS world at Montreal, first event ai ever attended, sad to see him these days.
I think he's done and he knows it.
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solar watched soft wind's game vs classic and realized that he cant handle shit everywhere
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I feel like roach ravager Bane (as Solar is doing now) could bei strong vs those toss styles but i never See it vs the timings :/
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hurricane just lost a healthy immortal doing god knows what, pretty sure this was a massive throw
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Hurricane had to pull his probes xd
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On May 01 2019 20:49 IshinShishi wrote:
hurricane just lost a healthy immortal doing god knows what, pretty sure this was a massive throw
shouldn't have wasted the disruptor shots on the spine.
if he hits those on the drones he wins
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That was some below average micro
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idk feels like hurricane has more potential to upset a big name than Solar
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On May 01 2019 20:58 IshinShishi wrote:
idk feels like hurricane has more potential to upset a big name than Solar
Solar's ZvT is deadly, tho.
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On May 01 2019 20:52 Elentos wrote:
Can Solar make it 4/10?
I bet zerg patience to get out together with classic
so no
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His untouchable status as a Ro8 Zerg who gets eliminated in the Ro32 two thirds of the time, Tasteless.
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On May 01 2019 21:00 Elentos wrote:
His untouchable status as a Ro8 Zerg who gets eliminated in the Ro32 two thirds of the time, Tasteless.
seems like he thinks Solar is RO8gue
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look at solar's vision, hurricane could've gotten a third and a hidden base and he would never know, he doesnt even care at this point tbh, its just about figuring out which all-in hurricane is gonna do haha
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hurricane keeping solar alive
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Why is he constanly out on the map its 3 vs 3 base and your ahead..
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Wow. I can't believe Solar got Hurricane to pull back. Hurricane's siege was so scary.
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Why on earth did Solar push out instead of just taking his 4th and teching up?
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On May 01 2019 21:15 amasposu wrote:
Wow. I can't believe Solar got Hurricane to pull back. Hurricane's siege was so scary.
what happened to your main account?
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that's just sad. he did so well to get hurricane out and then decided to push into an open location... i just don't get solar sometimes
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On May 01 2019 21:16 pdd wrote:
Why on earth did Solar push out instead of just taking his 4th and teching up?
this was a game of many mysteries
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Hurricane storming through to the next stage. Grats on the great win.
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Northern Ireland24310 Posts
Hurricane answering my questions like a true gent, posted a in Protoss Help Me Thread why Collosus and Disruptors aren’t so common in PvZ and he throws in some example games for me to look at
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solar couldn't just try to take a 4th on the back of lurker tech, no upgrades and 50 drones, he never holds an attack if he goes for that.
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Eliminated in the Ro32 of GSL in 7 out of 10 attempts in LotV. Solar you madman.
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why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2?
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On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2?
Spire and mutas is very expensive and slow. Making a spire when your opponent is all-in has killed Zergs more often than they'd like to admit.
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I think solar was 100% sure that he wouldn't lose if just held the initial push and just went on defense mode on the back of a poor economy, is it reall an all-in when your opponent isn't even ahead in economy? 50 drones can't saturate 3 bases.. Hurricane was mostly in control the entire time when you think about it
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On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2?
Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600
Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute.
Let's not even talk about corruptors.
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On May 01 2019 21:20 IshinShishi wrote:
solar couldn't just try to take a 4th on the back of lurker tech, no upgrades and 50 drones, he never holds an attack if he goes for that.
Hurricane was down to 30 workers, his attack was being contained pretty well by Solar's lurkers and zergling's runbys were being effective. It's not like Solar had a significant army advantage, trying to end the game seemed one unnecessary gamble to me.
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On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors.
Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air
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On May 01 2019 21:20 Elentos wrote:
Eliminated in the Ro32 of GSL in 7 out of 10 attempts in LotV. Solar you madman.
Every korean Zerg is specialized at choking in a different round of Code S: Solar in ro32, Rogue in ro8, Dark in ro4, soO in the grand final. Very cute, if you ask me!
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GSL signs kr
GSL stuck in the same cast for eternity
GSL Classic interview
GSL Artosis old internet vs new internet
GSL sign Hurricane rebellion to the protoss itself
GSL Audience non kr
GSL Artosis and Tasteless casting for a long time
GSL Tasteless home alone
GSL Artosis hydraulic press
GSL Artosis bm
GSL Artosis and Tasteless glue
GSL Tasteles eliminate solar or true dies
GSL cheer non kr hurricane
GSL Tastosis hmm
GSL Tastosis aliens Hurricane
GSL Cheer signs kr
GSL Hurricane interview
GSL Tasteless guitar story
GSL Tasteless guitar story 2
GSL Tasteless guitar story 3
GSL Tasteless guitar story 4
GSL Tasteless guitar story 5
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On May 01 2019 21:40 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:20 Elentos wrote:
Eliminated in the Ro32 of GSL in 7 out of 10 attempts in LotV. Solar you madman. Every korean Zerg is specialized at choking in a different round of Code S: Solar in ro32, Rogue in ro8, Dark in ro4, soO in the grand final. Very cute, if you ask me!
So I guess Impact's aspiring to be the guy who fails the Ro16.
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On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air
Well, guess who has map control most of the time though?
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On May 01 2019 22:10 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air Well, guess who has map control most of the time though?
Is it the Zerg, coz for what I see, both protoss and terran, but especially protoss are walking around the map whenever they want
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On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air
Zerg absolutely can fight for air superiority, but they can't do it with mutas. That's a good thing as mutas are annoying enough currently to be a significant reason why Protoss pretty much always open Stargate. If Mutas could win air fights, Protoss would be forced into one macro build or suffer a build order loss to any Zerg player going Spire.
The problem with Corruptors is unless you're playing someone going multi-stargate phoenix, you kill whatever air they have then you have a bunch of basically dead supply until you get Broodlords.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Why not snipe the observer? It was in front of the army and in the "siege" mode? Was there another one around?
On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air
LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually.
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On May 01 2019 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:
LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually.
The funny thing about that is the race with the worst hasn't been seriously touched in any of the redesign patches.
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Zergs and doing poorly in GSL. Name a more iconic duo.
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On May 01 2019 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:Why not snipe the observer? It was in front of the army and in the "siege" mode? Was there another one around? Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually.
Spire is indeed too slow to stop the harass; Queens should be able to deal with Oracles, at worst you could build Spores.
Air superiority does not seem integral in early game ZvP as long as you can defend, after that for everything else there is Mast...I mean there are Hydralisks.
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On May 01 2019 23:03 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:
LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually. The funny thing about that is the race with the worst hasn't been seriously touched in any of the redesign patches.
which race are you talking about?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 01 2019 23:03 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:
LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually. The funny thing about that is the race with the worst hasn't been seriously touched in any of the redesign patches.
Yeah, Zergs really need that. The omnipotent queen reminds me a lot MSC
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On May 01 2019 23:07 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 23:03 Boggyb wrote:On May 01 2019 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:
LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually. The funny thing about that is the race with the worst hasn't been seriously touched in any of the redesign patches. Yeah, Zergs really need that. The omnipotent queen reminds me a lot MSC
It should since it is a band aid patch that keeps together a flawed race. The Queen also fits more in WC3 design philosophy in that it is both an economic and military unit which makes it a giant aberration in SC2.
The redesign Zerg needed:
Delete Queen (combine that with deleting mules and chrono)
Remove vision from creep
Make whatever other changes are needed to make that playable (probably involves making Hydras tier 1)
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36949 Posts
On May 01 2019 21:40 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:20 Elentos wrote:
Eliminated in the Ro32 of GSL in 7 out of 10 attempts in LotV. Solar you madman. Every Korean Zerg is specialized at choking in a different round of Code S: Solar in ro32, Rogue in ro8, Dark in ro4, soO in the grand final. Very cute, if you ask me!
Don’t forget Impact in Ro16.
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On May 01 2019 23:46 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:40 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 21:20 Elentos wrote:
Eliminated in the Ro32 of GSL in 7 out of 10 attempts in LotV. Solar you madman. Every Korean Zerg is specialized at choking in a different round of Code S: Solar in ro32, Rogue in ro8, Dark in ro4, soO in the grand final. Very cute, if you ask me! Don’t forget Impact in Ro16.
He hasn't reached their level yet, he should be 3-3(or 3-2) between ro32 and ro16 exits if I remember correctly; he has the right potential, we can believe in him.
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On May 01 2019 23:46 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:40 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 21:20 Elentos wrote:
Eliminated in the Ro32 of GSL in 7 out of 10 attempts in LotV. Solar you madman. Every Korean Zerg is specialized at choking in a different round of Code S: Solar in ro32, Rogue in ro8, Dark in ro4, soO in the grand final. Very cute, if you ask me! Don’t forget Impact in Ro16.
It's not like Impact should finish higher than Ro16 honestly.
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On May 02 2019 00:26 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 23:46 Seeker wrote:On May 01 2019 21:40 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 21:20 Elentos wrote:
Eliminated in the Ro32 of GSL in 7 out of 10 attempts in LotV. Solar you madman. Every Korean Zerg is specialized at choking in a different round of Code S: Solar in ro32, Rogue in ro8, Dark in ro4, soO in the grand final. Very cute, if you ask me! Don’t forget Impact in Ro16. It's not like Impact should finish higher than Ro16 honestly.
Most likely but we are speaking of results here as Solar, Dark, Rogue and soO are all potentially worth more than the placements they seem perpetually condmened tho; on the other hand, Impact looks like ro16 material but he is not stuck there every time(until now, at least).
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On May 02 2019 00:49 starkiller123 wrote:
Any decent games today?
Zerg went 1-6 against Protoss, so, yes, there were 6.
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On May 01 2019 23:04 argonautdice wrote:
Zergs and doing poorly in GSL. Name a more iconic duo.
BoggyB and whining about Zerg, regardless of the tournament in question.
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On May 02 2019 02:07 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 23:04 argonautdice wrote:
Zergs and doing poorly in GSL. Name a more iconic duo. BoggyB and whining about Zerg, regardless of the tournament in question.
I had no problem with Zerg's performance in the Super Tournament or WCS Winter: Americas.
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On May 01 2019 23:42 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 23:07 deacon.frost wrote:On May 01 2019 23:03 Boggyb wrote:On May 01 2019 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:
LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually. The funny thing about that is the race with the worst hasn't been seriously touched in any of the redesign patches. Yeah, Zergs really need that. The omnipotent queen reminds me a lot MSC It should since it is a band aid patch that keeps together a flawed race. The Queen also fits more in WC3 design philosophy in that it is both an economic and military unit which makes it a giant aberration in SC2. The redesign Zerg needed: Delete Queen (combine that with deleting mules and chrono) Remove vision from creep Make whatever other changes are needed to make that playable (probably involves making Hydras tier 1)
I completely agree, but they will never delete the queen and remove vision from creep at this point in the game
the best they can do is fix zerg's weakness of being stuck with garbage ass roaches for so long
i don't even know why roaches are in the game tbh. they didnt need to make hydras stronger in SC2 at the cost of them coming later and being more expensive. the roach was a failure for zerg design wise since its inception in wol when its gimmick was the extremely fast HP regeneration.
all roaches do is give terran and protoss players MORE micro potential against zerg. it's absolutely idiotic that a well placed siege tank or a couple of micro'd immortal can kill droves of roaches, the supposed meat shield of zerg. and now you see protoss players like hurricane, instead of going stargate heavy, getting more muscle on the ground to build up and hold off high roach numbers until robo units are available (meanwhile zest stuck with phoenix openers and got rocked). and of course terran players continue to stomp zerg players.
Maybe the roach should be replaced with a nerfed ravager and i think the game would be better if zerg t1 comp would be something like ravager hydra (both weakened). make ravager somewhat more vulnerable while its bile is going off (like diruptor can't move while nova is en route). cheaper t1 hydra but lower hp and damage a bit so it doesnt shred every single gateway unit, and give it bonus damage to armor so zerg still has a way to fight air/robo/mech
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Interesting thoughts on design, guys. Really agree with BerserkSword. Roaches are just so, so crappy.
Honestly I'd like queens to stay, but Zerg really needs 4 larva per inject back. That's what I think.
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On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air
what he said is not true though.
there have been plenty of games where the zerg commits to muta and just steamrolls the protoss. phoenix counter mutas on paper of course but there are a few things to take into consideration
1) zerg tech switches are much faster. if you only just got out 1 phoenix when 8 mutas are flying to your base you have a major problem.
2) going off the back of zerg tech switching, if the zerg decides to commit to more mutas, then the onus is on the protoss to properly respond. most protoss will not blindly pump phoenix after the first wave of mutas is fended off/contained because phoenix will be dead supply against the ground army zerg can pop out at that point
4) archons destroy mutas on paper but they are slow and clunky while mutas are fast af and can even magic box. so while your archon is busy trying to get past your wall in or trying to rush through bases, the mutas can be ransacking the mineral line
3) if youre talking about fighting for air superiority, zerg actually have the advantage because they have the corruptors, which can keep the phonix away from mutas.
late game zerg has the advantage as well, as the carrier was heavily nerfed and zerg casters are really good at that point
all I'm saying is that zerg can contest protoss with air units, and it happens in pro games
As for why solar didnt make mutas against hurricane? it's because hurricane was stalker and sentry heavy instead of the more conventional immortal archon chargelot comp (which is what mutas really screw over). you cannot blindside a protoss players with mutas when the protoss players has that much anti air, and zerg cannot beat stalker immortal sentry comps without hydra/lurkers
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On May 02 2019 04:29 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air what he said is not true though. there have been plenty of games where the zerg commits to muta and just steamrolls the protoss. phoenix counter mutas on paper of course but there are a few things to take into consideration 1) zerg tech switches are much faster. if you only just got out 1 phoenix when 8 mutas are flying to your base you have a major problem. 2) going off the back of zerg tech switching, if the zerg decides to commit to more mutas, then the onus is on the protoss to properly respond. most protoss will not blindly pump phoenix after the first wave of mutas is fended off/contained because phoenix will be dead supply against the ground army zerg can pop out at that point 4) archons destroy mutas on paper but they are slow and clunky while mutas are fast af and can even magic box. so while your archon is busy trying to get past your wall in or trying to rush through bases, the mutas can be ransacking the mineral line 3) if youre talking about fighting for air superiority, zerg actually have the advantage because they have the corruptors, which can keep the phonix away from mutas. late game zerg has the advantage as well, as the carrier was heavily nerfed and zerg casters are really good at that point all I'm saying is that zerg can contest protoss with air units, and it happens in pro games As for why solar didnt make mutas against hurricane? it's because hurricane was stalker and sentry heavy instead of the more conventional immortal archon chargelot comp (which is what mutas really screw over). you cannot blindside a protoss players with mutas when the protoss players has that much anti air, and zerg cannot beat stalker immortal sentry comps without hydra/lurkers
Honestly, thats how I understand zerg as well, mutas are not there to fight toe to toe with archons or other anti-air. However, what I find kind of odd is the fact that both terran and protoss (especially protoss) can fly a shuttle over the zerg continuously and endlessly until the end of the game, 1 shuttle can keep the zerg honest for unlimited period of time and the zerg has no counterplay besides of running around like a fool, trying to chase the winds xDD. Where is the Scourge equivalent from BW that allows them to shut air harass and force the other races to actually have to outplay the zerg to be able to hurt their economy?
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On May 02 2019 04:55 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 04:29 BerserkSword wrote:On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air what he said is not true though. there have been plenty of games where the zerg commits to muta and just steamrolls the protoss. phoenix counter mutas on paper of course but there are a few things to take into consideration 1) zerg tech switches are much faster. if you only just got out 1 phoenix when 8 mutas are flying to your base you have a major problem. 2) going off the back of zerg tech switching, if the zerg decides to commit to more mutas, then the onus is on the protoss to properly respond. most protoss will not blindly pump phoenix after the first wave of mutas is fended off/contained because phoenix will be dead supply against the ground army zerg can pop out at that point 4) archons destroy mutas on paper but they are slow and clunky while mutas are fast af and can even magic box. so while your archon is busy trying to get past your wall in or trying to rush through bases, the mutas can be ransacking the mineral line 3) if youre talking about fighting for air superiority, zerg actually have the advantage because they have the corruptors, which can keep the phonix away from mutas. late game zerg has the advantage as well, as the carrier was heavily nerfed and zerg casters are really good at that point all I'm saying is that zerg can contest protoss with air units, and it happens in pro games As for why solar didnt make mutas against hurricane? it's because hurricane was stalker and sentry heavy instead of the more conventional immortal archon chargelot comp (which is what mutas really screw over). you cannot blindside a protoss players with mutas when the protoss players has that much anti air, and zerg cannot beat stalker immortal sentry comps without hydra/lurkers Honestly, thats how I understand zerg as well, mutas are not there to fight toe to toe with archons or other anti-air. However, what I find kind of odd is the fact that both terran and protoss (especially protoss) can fly a shuttle over the zerg continuously and endlessly until the end of the game, 1 shuttle can keep the zerg honest for unlimited period of time and the zerg has no counterplay besides of running around like a fool, trying to chase the winds xDD. Where is the Scourge equivalent from BW that allows them to shut air harass and force the other races to actually have to outplay the zerg to be able to hurt their economy?
I'm glad that you used the expression "keep the Zerg honest". The reason Zerg doesn't have something easily accessible without a major trade off that lets them shut down harassment is their win rates would hit 100% if they did.
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On May 02 2019 04:55 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 04:29 BerserkSword wrote:On May 01 2019 21:37 M2 wrote:On May 01 2019 21:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2019 21:22 M2 wrote:
why solar (and zergs overall) not going for spire to get rid of shuttle/oracle harass? its not good in SC2? Because protoss makes phoenix and, congratulations, you've just wasted 600/600 Sometimes it can be done vs dt drop opening (as they have trouble defending a few mutas) but even without stargate it's risky since protoss can just come with archons and kill you while mutalisks try to be cute. Let's not even talk about corruptors. Well this sounds like a huge design flaw for zerg if they cannot fight for air priority at all. Not only air priority but also not having the tools to shut down air harass and make it actually risky for the opponent to fly things over the zerg base, different than the risk of not looking and fly over a ground anti-air what he said is not true though. there have been plenty of games where the zerg commits to muta and just steamrolls the protoss. phoenix counter mutas on paper of course but there are a few things to take into consideration 1) zerg tech switches are much faster. if you only just got out 1 phoenix when 8 mutas are flying to your base you have a major problem. 2) going off the back of zerg tech switching, if the zerg decides to commit to more mutas, then the onus is on the protoss to properly respond. most protoss will not blindly pump phoenix after the first wave of mutas is fended off/contained because phoenix will be dead supply against the ground army zerg can pop out at that point 4) archons destroy mutas on paper but they are slow and clunky while mutas are fast af and can even magic box. so while your archon is busy trying to get past your wall in or trying to rush through bases, the mutas can be ransacking the mineral line 3) if youre talking about fighting for air superiority, zerg actually have the advantage because they have the corruptors, which can keep the phonix away from mutas. late game zerg has the advantage as well, as the carrier was heavily nerfed and zerg casters are really good at that point all I'm saying is that zerg can contest protoss with air units, and it happens in pro games As for why solar didnt make mutas against hurricane? it's because hurricane was stalker and sentry heavy instead of the more conventional immortal archon chargelot comp (which is what mutas really screw over). you cannot blindside a protoss players with mutas when the protoss players has that much anti air, and zerg cannot beat stalker immortal sentry comps without hydra/lurkers Honestly, thats how I understand zerg as well, mutas are not there to fight toe to toe with archons or other anti-air. However, what I find kind of odd is the fact that both terran and protoss (especially protoss) can fly a shuttle over the zerg continuously and endlessly until the end of the game, 1 shuttle can keep the zerg honest for unlimited period of time and the zerg has no counterplay besides of running around like a fool, trying to chase the winds xDD
What does "keeping the zerg honest" mean though?
making the zerg player pay attention and move around queens and roaches?
the zerg player then has an army that can overwhelm the protoss army in a straight up fight....then what.
the reason why protoss needs to keep "zerg honest" is because if they don't the zerg just outgrows them and steamrolls them.
this is the crux of stargate + archon drop harass. Protoss players use this to try and even the odds when it comes to expansion/map control vs zerg. this is what zest tried to do and it failed miserably because queens have a range of 8 and the zerg player just has to pay attention to keep the archons from killing nothing more than a queen, overloard, and or a few lings. and oracles and phoenix cant fend off a midgame zerg ground army
that's why you see players like hurricane who are not confident in their relative skill/later game play just say fuck it and go for two base timing attacks. he decided to live or die on the two base attack. and to be honest, solar threw game 3 and gifted hurricane the win, because hurricane had the weaker economy and did not have the unit composition to break a lurker wall on creep. solar just needed to sit back and get the bigger army he eventually would have
against terran it's a completely different story because it's ridiculously difficult for midgame zerg armies to break terran bases, while terran can project so much power for so little supply
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All right I dont argue about that, as I said I am new to the game, so I would assume that its like you are explaining it and if zerg cannot be pressured like that they will become too strong. If this is the trade off, I am fine with it, I just found it odd since my understandings about the game dynamics are mostly from another game atm
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On May 02 2019 04:04 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 23:42 Boggyb wrote:On May 01 2019 23:07 deacon.frost wrote:On May 01 2019 23:03 Boggyb wrote:On May 01 2019 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:
LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually. The funny thing about that is the race with the worst hasn't been seriously touched in any of the redesign patches. Yeah, Zergs really need that. The omnipotent queen reminds me a lot MSC It should since it is a band aid patch that keeps together a flawed race. The Queen also fits more in WC3 design philosophy in that it is both an economic and military unit which makes it a giant aberration in SC2. The redesign Zerg needed: Delete Queen (combine that with deleting mules and chrono) Remove vision from creep Make whatever other changes are needed to make that playable (probably involves making Hydras tier 1) I completely agree, but they will never delete the queen and remove vision from creep at this point in the game the best they can do is fix zerg's weakness of being stuck with garbage ass roaches for so long i don't even know why roaches are in the game tbh. they didnt need to make hydras stronger in SC2 at the cost of them coming later and being more expensive. the roach was a failure for zerg design wise since its inception in wol when its gimmick was the extremely fast HP regeneration. all roaches do is give terran and protoss players MORE micro potential against zerg. it's absolutely idiotic that a well placed siege tank or a couple of micro'd immortal can kill droves of roaches, the supposed meat shield of zerg. and now you see protoss players like hurricane, instead of going stargate heavy, getting more muscle on the ground to build up and hold off high roach numbers until robo units are available (meanwhile zest stuck with phoenix openers and got rocked). and of course terran players continue to stomp zerg players. Maybe the roach should be replaced with a nerfed ravager and i think the game would be better if zerg t1 comp would be something like ravager hydra (both weakened). make ravager somewhat more vulnerable while its bile is going off (like diruptor can't move while nova is en route). cheaper t1 hydra but lower hp and damage a bit so it doesnt shred every single gateway unit, and give it bonus damage to armor so zerg still has a way to fight air/robo/mech
Roaches are bad because... they don't received any buffs since WOL.
The problem isn't roach or zerg design, it's the way they introduce some gamebreaking patch like 70 dmg for tank while they don't balance at all the rest. When you decide to nerf zerg eco, don't buff some zerg units, and give massive buffs to their counter, they become simply bad, that's intended.
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Northern Ireland24310 Posts
On May 02 2019 07:12 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 04:04 BerserkSword wrote:On May 01 2019 23:42 Boggyb wrote:On May 01 2019 23:07 deacon.frost wrote:On May 01 2019 23:03 Boggyb wrote:On May 01 2019 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:
LotV has many design flaws which were made more glaring lately. You get used to it eventually. The funny thing about that is the race with the worst hasn't been seriously touched in any of the redesign patches. Yeah, Zergs really need that. The omnipotent queen reminds me a lot MSC It should since it is a band aid patch that keeps together a flawed race. The Queen also fits more in WC3 design philosophy in that it is both an economic and military unit which makes it a giant aberration in SC2. The redesign Zerg needed: Delete Queen (combine that with deleting mules and chrono) Remove vision from creep Make whatever other changes are needed to make that playable (probably involves making Hydras tier 1) I completely agree, but they will never delete the queen and remove vision from creep at this point in the game the best they can do is fix zerg's weakness of being stuck with garbage ass roaches for so long i don't even know why roaches are in the game tbh. they didnt need to make hydras stronger in SC2 at the cost of them coming later and being more expensive. the roach was a failure for zerg design wise since its inception in wol when its gimmick was the extremely fast HP regeneration. all roaches do is give terran and protoss players MORE micro potential against zerg. it's absolutely idiotic that a well placed siege tank or a couple of micro'd immortal can kill droves of roaches, the supposed meat shield of zerg. and now you see protoss players like hurricane, instead of going stargate heavy, getting more muscle on the ground to build up and hold off high roach numbers until robo units are available (meanwhile zest stuck with phoenix openers and got rocked). and of course terran players continue to stomp zerg players. Maybe the roach should be replaced with a nerfed ravager and i think the game would be better if zerg t1 comp would be something like ravager hydra (both weakened). make ravager somewhat more vulnerable while its bile is going off (like diruptor can't move while nova is en route). cheaper t1 hydra but lower hp and damage a bit so it doesnt shred every single gateway unit, and give it bonus damage to armor so zerg still has a way to fight air/robo/mech Roaches are bad because... they don't received any buffs since WOL. The problem isn't roach or zerg design, it's the way they introduce some gamebreaking patch like 70 dmg for tank while they don't balance at all the rest. When you decide to nerf zerg eco, don't buff some zerg units, and give massive buffs to their counter, they become simply bad, that's intended.
Surely Zerg design does play a big part too though? Whatever units they do have they tend to have a lot of them, so any changes will have a big effect, also Zergs have really good map vision and other tools that make changes really dicey to make, in PvZ especially.
Perhaps some tweaking is needed I wouldn’t necessarily dispute that either, it’s a bloody hard game to balance because they kept just adding more flashy stuff to avoid doing more fundamental alterations back in the day.
The warp prism in its current state is a bit of a case in point, it is really bloody strong both in pickup micro and augmenting pushes, but also just flying into bases. But without it Protoss is boned as things stand.
I’d at least lower the pickup range so there’s more counter-micro against it that’s possible. I like my flashy micro but not when it’s very difficult to counteract from the other player.
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congratz to Hurricane 
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EPT
2019 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S
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