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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 10 2019 05:22 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 04:58 deacon.frost wrote:On May 10 2019 04:52 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 03:22 Ej_ wrote:On May 10 2019 01:25 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p That's usually what happens sadly, if zerg gets any options of aggression they are instantly getting nerfed. On the other hand protoss has 15 different builds and terran has a couple at least I don't think there was much wrong with nerfing nydus (which was ridiculous tbh and builds like mass nydus SH off 2 bases stil exist) or removing the Guru build. However, I am curious as to when Blizzard will realize how ridiculous of a change was reducing robo facility cost :D E: actually I'm surprised they haven't nerfed cannon rush vs Zerg yet, as it would be within their process of roughlessly eliminating easily executed strategies that are fun to one player only (like mine drops or nydus all-ins). Yeah but overlord drop also got removed etc. I actually think that both Nydus and Ovie drops were too powerfull and they didn't find any way how to do them less powerfull but nerf them into the ground. No offense, but immortal nydus was an utter nonsense. (edit> similarly nydus getting killed by probes was an utter BS) Sure but how is warp prism not utter nonsense
It became way too strong, I agree.
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As a person who came recently in SC2, but with plenty of BW experience, there are some mechanics/things in the game that I genuine cannot understand why do they have to be in at all. The two that share my personal number one are the prism pull up from distance and the zerg creep vision. What these two actually bring to the game? Because the zerg doesnt have probably the strongest means until now to cover map movements and maintain vision cough..overlords..cough, so the creep also has vision now, why? And the prism one, what does protoss lack so its allowed to have risk free harass and army micro? My confusion is not about balance at all, they ll probably find a way to balance it if we assume that its not balanced at the moment, but why do we have one sided not interactive mechanics its a different story, but as I said I am still new, perhaps I am missing critical view points on these.
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Bisutopia19350 Posts
On May 10 2019 06:07 Wombat_NI wrote:
Pickup range is just silly, I don’t think it needs pulled back THAT much, but people can get away with relative sloppiness in warp prism positioning and still benefit from the lift micro.
I actually really like some of the juggling it’s pretty cool, but if it was made that bit harder it’d make those pushes harder to execute and easier to appreciate.
I can’t see the top Protoss players actually struggling to micro with a change, but I think it may add an extra difficulty when it comes to taking the camera away from the push too.
I dunno, it’s the proposed change I’d want to see first, the prism gives so many divergent aggressive and hard to prepare for pressures vT, and pushes vZ that even Zergs that know it’s coming struggle to stop.
If pickup range was an upgrade, maybe combo with speed, it would nerf the push timing and still be worthwhile to get. Range is great to see but it is what makes the immortals stay alive forever so early in PvZ.
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Northern Ireland26784 Posts
On May 10 2019 08:01 M2 wrote:
As a person who came recently in SC2, but with plenty of BW experience, there are some mechanics/things in the game that I genuine cannot understand why do they have to be in at all. The two that share my personal number one are the prism pull up from distance and the zerg creep vision. What these two actually bring to the game? Because the zerg doesnt have probably the strongest means until now to cover map movements and maintain vision cough..overlords..cough, so the creep also has vision now, why? And the prism one, what does protoss lack so its allowed to have risk free harass and army micro? My confusion is not about balance at all, they ll probably find a way to balance it if we assume that its not balanced at the moment, but why do we have one sided not interactive mechanics its a different story, but as I said I am still new, perhaps I am missing critical view points on these.
I quite like creep and vision, maybe I’m just used to it I just feel it fits Zerg being this ever-expanding organism, so I feel it kind of fits.
Point on balance absolutely taken though I know you’re not talking about that, but Zerg can’t stop some timings when they see it move out 3/4 of the map away, they’re really going to have a rough time
Warp prism I don’t like because there isn’t counter-play. Creep I like that players have to actively push it out and clear out t, there’s something going on there.
I love both games, game flow, gradual buildup vs fast maxes, 12 unit selection vs unlimited, they’re just so massively different in how they play out. Brood War has its share of completely insanely overpowered abilities, they’re just very hard to deploy to their full power. Maelstrom/storm, storm in general, stasis and recall, swarm, etc etc would be crazy frustratingly broken if directly transposed into SC2 too.
I really love all of BW, SC2 and WC3 for different reasons.
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On May 10 2019 08:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 08:01 M2 wrote:
As a person who came recently in SC2, but with plenty of BW experience, there are some mechanics/things in the game that I genuine cannot understand why do they have to be in at all. The two that share my personal number one are the prism pull up from distance and the zerg creep vision. What these two actually bring to the game? Because the zerg doesnt have probably the strongest means until now to cover map movements and maintain vision cough..overlords..cough, so the creep also has vision now, why? And the prism one, what does protoss lack so its allowed to have risk free harass and army micro? My confusion is not about balance at all, they ll probably find a way to balance it if we assume that its not balanced at the moment, but why do we have one sided not interactive mechanics its a different story, but as I said I am still new, perhaps I am missing critical view points on these. I quite like creep and vision, maybe I’m just used to it I just feel it fits Zerg being this ever-expanding organism, so I feel it kind of fits. Point on balance absolutely taken though I know you’re not talking about that, but Zerg can’t stop some timings when they see it move out 3/4 of the map away, they’re really going to have a rough time Warp prism I don’t like because there isn’t counter-play. Creep I like that players have to actively push it out and clear out t, there’s something going on there. I love both games, game flow, gradual buildup vs fast maxes, 12 unit selection vs unlimited, they’re just so massively different in how they play out. Brood War has its share of completely insanely overpowered abilities, they’re just very hard to deploy to their full power. Maelstrom/storm, storm in general, stasis and recall, swarm, etc etc would be crazy frustratingly broken if directly transposed into SC2 too. I really love all of BW, SC2 and WC3 for different reasons.
Agree I don't think there's much point comparing BW mechanics to SC2 mechanics anymore. They're two completely different games and the centre of balance is so far away. WC3 is closer to BW than SC2 is.
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will agree that warp prism does feel too strong right now. The micro players did before they gave it the range was super cool and i truly miss that
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On May 10 2019 08:01 M2 wrote:
As a person who came recently in SC2, but with plenty of BW experience, there are some mechanics/things in the game that I genuine cannot understand why do they have to be in at all. The two that share my personal number one are the prism pull up from distance and the zerg creep vision. What these two actually bring to the game? Because the zerg doesnt have probably the strongest means until now to cover map movements and maintain vision cough..overlords..cough, so the creep also has vision now, why? And the prism one, what does protoss lack so its allowed to have risk free harass and army micro? My confusion is not about balance at all, they ll probably find a way to balance it if we assume that its not balanced at the moment, but why do we have one sided not interactive mechanics its a different story, but as I said I am still new, perhaps I am missing critical view points on these.
Creep is pretty awesome actually:
You have to both extend and deny creep respectively. If Terran turtles up, creep will be at the front door and pushing becomes really hard. The other way around, when Zerg sees a Terran / Protoss army first while it is all setup at their front door, defending becomes impossible. Creep keeps both players honest and adds a lot of dynamic to ZvT/P
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On May 10 2019 18:15 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 08:01 M2 wrote:
As a person who came recently in SC2, but with plenty of BW experience, there are some mechanics/things in the game that I genuine cannot understand why do they have to be in at all. The two that share my personal number one are the prism pull up from distance and the zerg creep vision. What these two actually bring to the game? Because the zerg doesnt have probably the strongest means until now to cover map movements and maintain vision cough..overlords..cough, so the creep also has vision now, why? And the prism one, what does protoss lack so its allowed to have risk free harass and army micro? My confusion is not about balance at all, they ll probably find a way to balance it if we assume that its not balanced at the moment, but why do we have one sided not interactive mechanics its a different story, but as I said I am still new, perhaps I am missing critical view points on these. Creep is pretty awesome actually: You have to both extend and deny creep respectively. If Terran turtles up, creep will be at the front door and pushing becomes really hard. The other way around, when Zerg sees a Terran / Protoss army first while it is all setup at their front door, defending becomes impossible. Creep keeps both players honest and adds a lot of dynamic to ZvT/P
No, you did not understand me, I like the creep and its design and the bonuses it gives, I think its a pretty neat concept. I only disapprove the vision part, somehow I feel that its not aligned with starcraft core concepts. More so since zerg actually has means (overlords) to see and intercept T&P movements, however, in comparison with the creep, the overlords need planning&timing, they are at risk and require a trade off to spread around the map, additionally, they can be outplayed and worked around.
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On May 10 2019 18:57 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 18:15 Harris1st wrote:On May 10 2019 08:01 M2 wrote:
As a person who came recently in SC2, but with plenty of BW experience, there are some mechanics/things in the game that I genuine cannot understand why do they have to be in at all. The two that share my personal number one are the prism pull up from distance and the zerg creep vision. What these two actually bring to the game? Because the zerg doesnt have probably the strongest means until now to cover map movements and maintain vision cough..overlords..cough, so the creep also has vision now, why? And the prism one, what does protoss lack so its allowed to have risk free harass and army micro? My confusion is not about balance at all, they ll probably find a way to balance it if we assume that its not balanced at the moment, but why do we have one sided not interactive mechanics its a different story, but as I said I am still new, perhaps I am missing critical view points on these. Creep is pretty awesome actually: You have to both extend and deny creep respectively. If Terran turtles up, creep will be at the front door and pushing becomes really hard. The other way around, when Zerg sees a Terran / Protoss army first while it is all setup at their front door, defending becomes impossible. Creep keeps both players honest and adds a lot of dynamic to ZvT/P No, you did not understand me, I like the creep and its design and the bonuses it gives, I think its a pretty neat concept. I only disapprove the vision part, somehow I feel that its not aligned with starcraft core concepts. More so since zerg actually has means (overlords) to see and intercept T&P movements, however, in comparison with the creep, the overlords need planning&timing, they are at risk and require a trade off to spread around the map, additionally, they can be outplayed and worked around.
Ah okay I think I understand what you mean. I have to disagree regardless:
Reason beeing:
Terran has Scan. Can't do shit about it (besides proxy / hiding structures)
Protoss has Hallucination. Sure you can kill them, but they can send an almost endless wave of Hallu Phoenix at you.
Zerg has Overlord/ Overseer. Overlords are denied pretty easy before speed upgrade. Overseer are expensive
Edit: Scans and Halluc can follow army movement. Overlords can't. Thats where creep comes in
Edit2: Also Protoss has Oracle -> Reveal
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Something else I wonder regarding the prism and zerg, arent couple infestors with the tentacle upgrade be able to interrupt/steal the prism or the immortals, mostly the prism?
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On May 10 2019 21:24 M2 wrote:
Something else I wonder regarding the prism and zerg, arent couple infestors with the tentacle upgrade be able to interrupt/steal the prism or the immortals, mostly the prism?
They could. But that tech is waaaaaay down the line and nowhere near ready when 2-base/3 base pushes normally kill you
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 10 2019 20:32 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 18:57 M2 wrote:On May 10 2019 18:15 Harris1st wrote:On May 10 2019 08:01 M2 wrote:
As a person who came recently in SC2, but with plenty of BW experience, there are some mechanics/things in the game that I genuine cannot understand why do they have to be in at all. The two that share my personal number one are the prism pull up from distance and the zerg creep vision. What these two actually bring to the game? Because the zerg doesnt have probably the strongest means until now to cover map movements and maintain vision cough..overlords..cough, so the creep also has vision now, why? And the prism one, what does protoss lack so its allowed to have risk free harass and army micro? My confusion is not about balance at all, they ll probably find a way to balance it if we assume that its not balanced at the moment, but why do we have one sided not interactive mechanics its a different story, but as I said I am still new, perhaps I am missing critical view points on these. Creep is pretty awesome actually: You have to both extend and deny creep respectively. If Terran turtles up, creep will be at the front door and pushing becomes really hard. The other way around, when Zerg sees a Terran / Protoss army first while it is all setup at their front door, defending becomes impossible. Creep keeps both players honest and adds a lot of dynamic to ZvT/P No, you did not understand me, I like the creep and its design and the bonuses it gives, I think its a pretty neat concept. I only disapprove the vision part, somehow I feel that its not aligned with starcraft core concepts. More so since zerg actually has means (overlords) to see and intercept T&P movements, however, in comparison with the creep, the overlords need planning&timing, they are at risk and require a trade off to spread around the map, additionally, they can be outplayed and worked around. Ah okay I think I understand what you mean. I have to disagree regardless: Reason beeing: Terran has Scan. Can't do shit about it (besides proxy / hiding structures) Protoss has Hallucination. Sure you can kill them, but they can send an almost endless wave of Hallu Phoenix at you. Zerg has Overlord/ Overseer. Overlords are denied pretty easy before speed upgrade. Overseer are expensive Edit: Scans and Halluc can follow army movement. Overlords can't. Thats where creep comes in Edit2: Also Protoss has Oracle -> Reveal
There's nothing about balancing. Creep vision is a legal maphack and nothing else. Scan costs 320 minerals, back with the old economics it was a viable strat to lose a DT to a scan if Terran was one-basing(WoL maps mostly) because - surprise surprise, it was worth it. There's a reason why Terrans try to use the reaper scout as much as possible... compared to other scouting methods scan is probably the most expensive.
If you use the observer - you lose the robo time(which is the biggest cost of observer similarly to scan being a MULE). On the other hand you can get huge information and it's hard to miss something, especially now with the siege technology. If you scan 2 pylons out of 3 and the tech is at the 3rd, well, sad story, really.
You can scout shit ton with even slow ovies - nat timing, add ons, gas timings at natural, most of these are pretty safe scouts.
Hallucination - probably the best scout. Force field - awesome think to have at most of the game. Guardian shield - same. So the only price you pay is bad scouting at the early game to baneling bust(e.g.)
Zerg has changelings... but most importantly, Zerg has speedlings, just place one speedling in the key locations, BAM, now you know they're doing something there.
Not that I want to nerf it, but Zergs can safely play without the vission, the issues are elsewhere(also if the creep tumors will alarm about their clearing as they do now why do you need the vision? Who is stupid enough to stand 3 miles into the creep and attack?  )
On May 10 2019 21:24 M2 wrote:
Something else I wonder regarding the prism and zerg, arent couple infestors with the tentacle upgrade be able to interrupt/steal the prism or the immortals, mostly the prism?
Before you get it you die.
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EPT
