[GSL 2019] Season 2 - Ro32 Group G

On May 08 2019 18:40 Toua wrote:
that last bane

On May 08 2019 18:42 Durnuu wrote:

so he's the GOAT now?

On May 08 2019 19:12 Durnuu wrote:
This is the worst game I've seen since FanTaSy vs Leenock

On May 08 2019 19:24 Pandemona wrote:
This is absolutely awful what is going on lol

On May 08 2019 19:29 Pandemona wrote:

I don't watch SC2 outside of GSL and BlizzCon so i can't comment on that xD

On May 08 2019 19:36 NoS-Craig wrote:
I love Liberators. Cure made a lot of them that game to. Helped carry him that game.

On May 08 2019 19:52 InfCereal wrote:
I hope parting got a lot of money for that, because that was embarrassing.

On May 08 2019 19:10 NExt wrote:
The meta is sooo crazy right now. Everyone is making crazy moves

On May 08 2019 20:54 IshinShishi wrote:
that didnt look good for zerg, I wonder what Serral would do

On May 08 2019 20:56 Ej_ wrote:

Hello haha

On May 08 2019 21:02 IshinShishi wrote:
its better if parting goes through, he has worse mechanics than Cure, but way more upset potential with shenanigans

On May 08 2019 21:10 Penev wrote:
we're a bit heavy on Protosses already though

On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely..

On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:

As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do

On May 09 2019 00:24 xelnaga_empire wrote:
Wow, at least 8 Protoss will be in the Round of 16. This is after 7 Protoss out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals. Protoss is doing really well in the last few months.

On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +.

On May 09 2019 00:11 Elentos wrote:

Well, what we see as an upset is a result of our biases so it's not a great measure to begin with. Scarlett beating Trap would have been a huge upset to me, but to you not as much. And I'm not gonna say whether there is or isn't something wrong with Protoss. Statistically it definitely looks that way.

But I also don't want to absolve the players who got eliminated from all the mistakes they made by simply saying "Well Protoss".

On May 09 2019 01:51 Charoisaur wrote:

Protoss just has more top tier players in korea.
Terran has 4 top tier players (Maru, Inno, TY, Gumiho) as well as Zerg (Solar, soO, Rogue, Dark).
Protoss however has 7 top tier players (Zest, Stats, Classic, sOs, herO, Dear, Trap) so it's only natural that they're more represented in tournaments.
it doesn't always have to be because of balance.

On May 09 2019 01:38 Ej_ wrote:

according to Aligulac, the 2 best players in the world aren't in Code S
+ Show Spoiler +

On May 09 2019 04:31 Elentos wrote:

I didn't say there wasn't a clear trend (quite the opposite). But I also think some of the players who got "upset" in the Ro32 didn't play very well and just blaming balance wouldn't do that justice. Even premier Terran whiner INnoVation said he didn't play well against Patience.

On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:


Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP.

Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!)
Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!)

TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao

On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:

Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias.

The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it.

It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation.

On May 09 2019 06:04 Shuffleblade wrote:

So nowadays we are considering what the players were like at their peak when we look at if someone is favored? That really doesn't make sense, DGR and Taeja aren't doing so hot right now and neither were Parting until super tournament.

On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:


Completely disagree.

First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people.

Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now.

Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here)

Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff

Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff.

the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them)

On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:

How many of those games were cheeses 🤔

High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced.

RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs.

Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol.

On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:


Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size?

Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players.

I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game.

This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame).

You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested.

Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure.

Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony

then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf.

Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf.


This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map

On May 09 2019 08:37 Dave4 wrote:

I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments.

I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion.

Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that.

On May 09 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:


I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards.

What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament

How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches?

Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves?

Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills?

Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors

Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors?

Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S.

On May 09 2019 10:19 Wombat_NI wrote:

Everything can seem unfair if one phrased it like that. Scarlett’s unit composition was extremely iffy against Keen that game, casters and myself felt so long before that engagement and it proved to be a misjudgment.

Dark really botched that game against Gumiho pretty hardcore, although I do love Gumiho so as a fan I was OK with that.

SC2 even more than BW is full of extremely brutal unit interactions and you have to be on top of your game to avoid getting into them, it’s what separates the bad from the decent, the decent from the good and the good from from the great.

Zerg have plenty of tools themselves, I’ll be interested to see what Dark especially can show in this GSL given how good he is at controlling those really technical lategame armies.

It does seem an issue for sure that Zergs kind of suck most when they have to rely on roaches though. It’s not like bio in terms of microability and its hard counters counter it really hard. This isn’t new alas and I’m not sure what any solution would look lioe.

On May 09 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:


I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards.

What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament

How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches?

Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves?

Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills?

Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors

Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors?

Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S.

Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments?

[As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S.

On May 09 2019 12:01 BerserkSword wrote:


Which scarlett game are you referring to? g1 or g3? g1 i dont think her decision to move in and attack keen was iify at all. Scarlett had just obliterated many of keen's expensive units and got herself a 40 supply advantage. The attack was smacked down thanks to thors and then it was over for scarlett. This is despite the fact that keen threw away the bulk of his army not once but twice.

In g3 scarlett completely outplayed keen. she was macroing out of her mind. creep spread was insane and she was instantly rebuilding drones. unfortunately for her, the terran mech army was able to wipe her maxed out army out twice over, and she lost the game.

the constant theme we are seeing is that when zerg is forced to fight a unit composition full of tanky heavy hitters (thor and immortal) they just crumble. especially when there is splash damage support. I dont think Dark threw that game against gumiho at all either. Dark had a crazy economic advantage, was up one or two bases including a gold base, double workers, and had a ball of hydras, viper, brood lord tech. Gumiho simply turtled, rebuilt an army, then killed Dark lol

On May 09 2019 12:35 Athenau wrote:

Yes, it's fine if their tournament representation and winrates are healthy everywhere else. Balancing solely around the top 16 players in Korea is incredibly myopic.


Serral never played in Code S, nor did he attempt to qualify.

On May 09 2019 18:01 Shuffleblade wrote:

That a zerg player hasn't won code S says nothing about balance, it really doesn't, just drop that weird argument.

Zerg is struggling however and I agree that the problem is probably the roach being to "weak", on the other hand I hated how it was before the queen nerf when zerg just built queens, defended, macroed up and won. Defence was too cheap and easy for zerg back then, I don't really believe hydras is the answer but having zerg tech up SHOULD be the answer, it makes the most sense. Both protoss and terrans gets lair level tech structures and units super early compared to the zerg in standard none all-in games.

Could anyone imagine protoss staying on gateways and twilight in standard games for as long as zerg takes before building a tier 2 structure that requires lair? Or Terran staying on only barracks.....

As zerg plays today they defend terran and protoss high tech compositions (compared to zerg hatchery tech) with lings, bling and roach while using the queen as a crutch defensively. My guess is that the problem is that most lair tech (mutas/SH/hydras) requires a high amount of units (critical mass) to make a big difference while compared with medivacs, tanks, mines, immortals or archons, a few can really make a big difference. Since for zerg they need many putting a lot of economy into tech but not having time to get many only makes it less likely you will be able to defend or attack successfully.

On the other land logically zerg unlike other races only need 1 tech structure to open up the possiblity to make a lot of units at the same time, it should be a relatively cheap thing to do. The problem is that its not worth it even if it isn't that expensive.

The second problem is that zerg units especially are prone to be hardcountered while their units generally don't hardcounter the other races units. This makes it hard for zerg to have the "right" compositions and intead they have to focus on "not having the wrong composition".

Lastly I will add that I don't think tanks are overpowered, they are incredibly clunky to use and hard to move around, they have plenty of weakness to make up for their strength against for example the roach. You nention Fantasies window mines, fantasy played great those games and if a terran just plants WM without putting pressure on the zerg on other parts of the map a WM can end up just killing a ling if the zerg is good. Fantasy forced mistakes and e played better than the zerg in that example. Unlike other interactions, like thor vs muts for example, WM is a unit that doesn't really hardcounter anything if the zerg player is good and microes.

On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.

So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).

You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p

On May 10 2019 03:22 Ej_ wrote:

I don't think there was much wrong with nerfing nydus (which was ridiculous tbh and builds like mass nydus SH off 2 bases stil exist) or removing the Guru build.
However, I am curious as to when Blizzard will realize how ridiculous of a change was reducing robo facility cost :D

E: actually I'm surprised they haven't nerfed cannon rush vs Zerg yet, as it would be within their process of roughlessly eliminating easily executed strategies that are fun to one player only (like mine drops or nydus all-ins).

On May 10 2019 04:52 Nerchio wrote:

Yeah but overlord drop also got removed etc.

On May 10 2019 04:58 deacon.frost wrote:

I actually think that both Nydus and Ovie drops were too powerfull and they didn't find any way how to do them less powerfull but nerf them into the ground. No offense, but immortal nydus was an utter nonsense. (edit> similarly nydus getting killed by probes was an utter BS)

On May 10 2019 04:58 deacon.frost wrote:

I actually think that both Nydus and Ovie drops were too powerfull and they didn't find any way how to do them less powerfull but nerf them into the ground. No offense, but immortal nydus was an utter nonsense. (edit> similarly nydus getting killed by probes was an utter BS)

On May 10 2019 05:31 Moonerz wrote:


I think this is actually becoming a talking point at long last. The Warp Prism is just way too good in every situation.

-Amazing harass/drop play, can pick units up from 3 miles away so the prism is rarely at risk. You don't even need to load units into it so if it gets shot down it's just 200 minerals lost.

-Amazing in conjunction with a frontal attack as you can instantly reinforce your main army and it also adds huge micro ability to the army. (See 2 immortals killing a crazy amount of supply of roaches)

-Cost 200 minerals.

I'm not sure what the changes should be, but one I can think of off the top of my head is make the extended pick up range into an upgrade on the Robo Bay?

On May 10 2019 05:39 Dave4 wrote:

Yeah warp prisms drop juggling with its range now is quite strong.

Perhaps Zerg need to look back to mutalisk strategies a little more? They are quite good against most of the current pushing strategies from protoss and allow for strong harassment as well. I know that this is weaker since shield batteries though.

On May 10 2019 05:22 Nerchio wrote:

Sure but how is warp prism not utter nonsense

On May 10 2019 08:01 M2 wrote:
As a person who came recently in SC2, but with plenty of BW experience, there are some mechanics/things in the game that I genuine cannot understand why do they have to be in at all. The two that share my personal number one are the prism pull up from distance and the zerg creep vision. What these two actually bring to the game? Because the zerg doesnt have probably the strongest means until now to cover map movements and maintain vision cough..overlords..cough, so the creep also has vision now, why? And the prism one, what does protoss lack so its allowed to have risk free harass and army micro? My confusion is not about balance at all, they ll probably find a way to balance it if we assume that its not balanced at the moment, but why do we have one sided not interactive mechanics its a different story, but as I said I am still new, perhaps I am missing critical view points on these.

On May 10 2019 08:19 Wombat_NI wrote:

I quite like creep and vision, maybe I’m just used to it I just feel it fits Zerg being this ever-expanding organism, so I feel it kind of fits.

Point on balance absolutely taken though I know you’re not talking about that, but Zerg can’t stop some timings when they see it move out 3/4 of the map away, they’re really going to have a rough time

Warp prism I don’t like because there isn’t counter-play. Creep I like that players have to actively push it out and clear out t, there’s something going on there.

I love both games, game flow, gradual buildup vs fast maxes, 12 unit selection vs unlimited, they’re just so massively different in how they play out. Brood War has its share of completely insanely overpowered abilities, they’re just very hard to deploy to their full power. Maelstrom/storm, storm in general, stasis and recall, swarm, etc etc would be crazy frustratingly broken if directly transposed into SC2 too.

I really love all of BW, SC2 and WC3 for different reasons.

On May 10 2019 18:15 Harris1st wrote:


Creep is pretty awesome actually:

You have to both extend and deny creep respectively. If Terran turtles up, creep will be at the front door and pushing becomes really hard. The other way around, when Zerg sees a Terran / Protoss army first while it is all setup at their front door, defending becomes impossible. Creep keeps both players honest and adds a lot of dynamic to ZvT/P