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On May 09 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 08:37 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do  Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol. Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size? Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players. I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game. This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame). You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested. Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure. Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf. Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf. This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments. I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion. Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that. I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards. What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches? Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves? Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills? Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors? Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S.
I just think it's cherry picking a bit, you're willing to overlook all 2nd place GSLs and other victories, effectively claiming "winning GSL is the only metric that matters".
Taking that argument to the extreme your claim is basically synonymous that "balance is determined by one match each season (GSL finals outcome)".
Further you can't argue the above and simultaneously use evidence at an incredibly micro level like individual hand-picked games that aren't GSL finals anyway to back up that view..
As mentioned before I personally think the Hydra just needs to become more of a standard unit in earlier parts of the game. Zerg actually have a good advantage in this sense because you can get a single hydra den and then just have access to the unit if you need it early, or not use it for a relatively cheap investment. The way hatch larva work you can make a bunch of them very quickly, whereas Terrance/Protoss would need multiple tech buildings to pump out a single unit in high volumes.
I do think probably Zerg is a little underpowered at the moment but it's far from clear cut and the fact they haven't won a GSL is probably about the worst metric you could use for a balance patch that affects gameplay at every level in my opinion.
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Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments?
Yes, it's fine if their tournament representation and winrates are healthy everywhere else. Balancing solely around the top 16 players in Korea is incredibly myopic.
[As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S.
Serral never played in Code S, nor did he attempt to qualify.
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Northern Ireland26450 Posts
On May 09 2019 12:01 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 10:19 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 09 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 08:37 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:[quote] As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol. Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size? Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players. I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game. This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame). You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested. Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure. Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf. Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf. This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments. I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion. Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that. I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards. What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches? Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves? Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills? Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors? Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S. Everything can seem unfair if one phrased it like that. Scarlett’s unit composition was extremely iffy against Keen that game, casters and myself felt so long before that engagement and it proved to be a misjudgment. Dark really botched that game against Gumiho pretty hardcore, although I do love Gumiho so as a fan I was OK with that. SC2 even more than BW is full of extremely brutal unit interactions and you have to be on top of your game to avoid getting into them, it’s what separates the bad from the decent, the decent from the good and the good from from the great. Zerg have plenty of tools themselves, I’ll be interested to see what Dark especially can show in this GSL given how good he is at controlling those really technical lategame armies. It does seem an issue for sure that Zergs kind of suck most when they have to rely on roaches though. It’s not like bio in terms of microability and its hard counters counter it really hard. This isn’t new alas and I’m not sure what any solution would look lioe. Which scarlett game are you referring to? g1 or g3? g1 i dont think her decision to move in and attack keen was iify at all. Scarlett had just obliterated many of keen's expensive units and got herself a 40 supply advantage. The attack was smacked down thanks to thors and then it was over for scarlett. This is despite the fact that keen threw away the bulk of his army not once but twice. In g3 scarlett completely outplayed keen. she was macroing out of her mind. creep spread was insane and she was instantly rebuilding drones. unfortunately for her, the terran mech army was able to wipe her maxed out army out twice over, and she lost the game. the constant theme we are seeing is that when zerg is forced to fight a unit composition full of tanky heavy hitters (thor and immortal) they just crumble. especially when there is splash damage support. I dont think Dark threw that game against gumiho at all either. Dark had a crazy economic advantage, was up one or two bases including a gold base, double workers, and had a ball of hydras, viper, brood lord tech. Gumiho simply turtled, rebuilt an army, then killed Dark lol
She had a comp that wasn’t particularly well suited to engaging head on, especially the location she ended up hitting, she lost an insane amount of mutas and subsequent reinforcements weren’t enough to kill what Keen eventually pushed with.
Was a good set of games thought they were pretty close in form on the day, Scarlett made a bit of a strategic error in that game though IMO and I don’t think it’s that relevant as to Zergs and their struggles (whatever those may be)
She had a solid economy, great creep spread and a really mobile but squishy army, she could have whittled Keen down gradually instead of attacking in to a really well-defended position, tech up behind it etc. If Keen aggressively pushes out then yeah you’ll have to attack into Thors with Mutas eventually but I don’t think that was the time to do it
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 09 2019 12:35 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +
Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments?
Yes, it's fine if their tournament representation and winrates are healthy everywhere else. Balancing solely around the top 16 players in Korea is incredibly myopic. Serral never played in Code S, nor did he attempt to qualify.
So what you're saying is - fuck zergs in Korea? Or that we let them play at WCS? Not sure what you mean now...
Edit> Also if you insist on the global scale, we need to give huge buffs to Terrans because of WCS and because of GSL  Good times ahead
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On May 09 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 08:37 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol. Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size? Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players. I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game. This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame). You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested. Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure. Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf. Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf. This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments. I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion. Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that. I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards. What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches? Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves? Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills? Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors? Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S.
That a zerg player hasn't won code S says nothing about balance, it really doesn't, just drop that weird argument.
Zerg is struggling however and I agree that the problem is probably the roach being to "weak", on the other hand I hated how it was before the queen nerf when zerg just built queens, defended, macroed up and won. Defence was too cheap and easy for zerg back then, I don't really believe hydras is the answer but having zerg tech up SHOULD be the answer, it makes the most sense. Both protoss and terrans gets lair level tech structures and units super early compared to the zerg in standard none all-in games.
Could anyone imagine protoss staying on gateways and twilight in standard games for as long as zerg takes before building a tier 2 structure that requires lair? Or Terran staying on only barracks.....
As zerg plays today they defend terran and protoss high tech compositions (compared to zerg hatchery tech) with lings, bling and roach while using the queen as a crutch defensively. My guess is that the problem is that most lair tech (mutas/SH/hydras) requires a high amount of units (critical mass) to make a big difference while compared with medivacs, tanks, mines, immortals or archons, a few can really make a big difference. Since for zerg they need many putting a lot of economy into tech but not having time to get many only makes it less likely you will be able to defend or attack successfully.
On the other land logically zerg unlike other races only need 1 tech structure to open up the possiblity to make a lot of units at the same time, it should be a relatively cheap thing to do. The problem is that its not worth it even if it isn't that expensive.
The second problem is that zerg units especially are prone to be hardcountered while their units generally don't hardcounter the other races units. This makes it hard for zerg to have the "right" compositions and intead they have to focus on "not having the wrong composition".
Lastly I will add that I don't think tanks are overpowered, they are incredibly clunky to use and hard to move around, they have plenty of weakness to make up for their strength against for example the roach. You nention Fantasies window mines, fantasy played great those games and if a terran just plants WM without putting pressure on the zerg on other parts of the map a WM can end up just killing a ling if the zerg is good. Fantasy forced mistakes and e played better than the zerg in that example. Unlike other interactions, like thor vs muts for example, WM is a unit that doesn't really hardcounter anything if the zerg player is good and microes.
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Northern Ireland26450 Posts
On May 09 2019 18:01 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 08:37 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 07:50 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 06:45 Dave4 wrote:On May 09 2019 05:42 BerserkSword wrote:On May 09 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 08 2019 23:18 TentativePanda wrote:On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote:On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote:
A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao Btw winrates from individual tournaments are prone to small sample bias. The reason Zergs aren't doing great in my opinion is that the game is currently in a state of high flux and meta shift. Everyone is doing different stuff so it's very unpredictable. As the typically reactionary race, Zerg tends to do worse during those periods because they need to be able to work out what's going on to counter it. It's not a balance issue it's just healthy meta variation. Completely disagree. First of all, the sample size is small but it's really the only one that matters, at least to a lot of people. Second of all, I think the Zerg players are struggling because the Zerg midgame is way too weak after the queen nerf. Zerg just seems to crumble to 2 base timings from Protoss, and non-stop harassment from terran which is ridiculously easy and rewarding to do (both in my experience and every time i watch top koreans play). the immortal and siege tank are simply way too potent against the roach, which is what zerg is expect to rely upon at that point in the game. of course this spills over into the whole queen situation too, because when the P/T player is doing his immortal/tank push, it is the queens that are the only thing capable of absorbing those hits...except they do so much less effectively now. Battlecruiser and Thor buffs were ridiculous vs Zerg too. The BC rush is devastating and Thors massacre zerg air compositions now, meaning zerg got their late game composition neutered as well (creep nerf hurts too). Just look at Scarlett v Keen g1 and g3 for an example of how thor-based armies slaughter the zerg (thor is like the immortal in that it just super tanks anything the zerg throws at it....see a trend here) Fantasy vs Leenock was very telling about the state of TvZ as well. Fantasy took g1 because a small drop with only 2 tanks and a handful of marines did what turned out to be fatal damage. the second game Fantasy won by abusing bio drops and mines, which is related to the creep nerf and widow mine buff, and marauder buff Even small things like cheaper hyperflight rotors magnifies the queen nerf....banshees were already very potent before the buff. the changes to protoss changed the whole PvZ strategy it seems. Protoss players are probably too scared to go lategame vs zerg, as carriers are useless now and feedback got nerfed. That, combined with the cheaper robo , which means faster immortals, probably enticed them to rely heavily on these 2 base pushes, as opposed to last year where stargate play was all the rage since it allowed them to better defend a 3rd base at the expense of muscle (that would be needed to push into the zerg bases as well as defend a huge roach/ravager and/or hydra army from steamrolling them) How many of those games were cheeses 🤔 High build variation and low sample means you shouldn't reject the null hypothesis that the game is balanced. RE nerfs/buffs I think the meta needs a bit of time to sort it out. Basically all of these just increase the need to mix in some hydras, which are a very powerful core unit. People trying to play without hydra tech should be viewed as risky because that's the central all-rounder for Zerg. Itd be like Terran playing without medivacs. Edit: also queens can't be that bad, Dark just rushed cure with them twice lol. Zerg has won literally zero Code S in the entirety of LotV. how about we take that for sample size? Do you know what this means? Zerg has been proven over and over again, each and every single time, to be incapable of winning the tournament with the most talented players. I understand that various patches have been introduced during this time period, but the balance issue I am talking about is a design flaw that has been present for the entirety of the game - the design of zergs being forced to rely on roaches and queens in the zerg early to mid game. This is the reason I don't think the current issue is merely a "let the metagame settle" kind of thing. It's because the latest patch took the Zerg's weakness and exacerbated it, while nerfing their strengths (creep and lategame). You're right about the hydra being an all rounder unit that can level the playing field. The problem is that the hydra is lair tech and getting them faster opens up the zerg to just get run over by simple bio/gateway pushes. I actually gave my thoughts on hydra tech here https://tl.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/546693-gsl-2019-season-2-ro32-group-c?page=8#146 if you're interested. Dark vs Cure is the one outlier. Dark is in another league compared to cure. Look at Fantasy vs Rogue g1, where Rogue's queen + ling defense got pummeled by two tanks and a handful of marines. It was 2 tanks, 16 marines vs 7 queens and like 20 lings. Rogue ended up losing 4 queens, all the lings, and like 12 drones. Even fantasy vs rogue g2, rogue couldnt fend off 2 bcs with 6 queens and 1 spore colony then there was fantasy vs leenock g1. where fantasy essentially killed leenock with like 2-3 banshees basically lol. The queens were gunned down so fast thanks to the transfusion nerf. Then there are all the PvZs with those new timing attacks. For example, g1 stats vs leenock, when stats made his game ending push, 3 of the 5 queens defending his base died in the first few second lol. You also see more queens dying from wwarp prism harass than before the queen nerf. This leads into the next problem zerg faces - even if zerg survives the early/mid game aggression protoss/terran throw at them, the zerg cannot hope to touch the protoss/terran bases in retaliation. Siege tanks, widow mines, Immortals, shield batteries, force fields, etc, make it ridiculously hard for the zerg to project power with armies composed mostly of lowly roaches. To add even more to this, creep and nydus got nerfed......and those were some of the equalizers zerg had to project power onto the map I think you'll probably get your wish and Blizzard will make some changes, but I do think it's far from proven that the meta is broken yet. RE Zerg not winning GSL that's correct but they have made finals and lost very narrowly - while winning plenty of other tournaments. I don't mind either way I'm impartial but looking at it objectively I see a lot of volatility and traditionally Zerg always struggles in those periods because they are the reactionary race. That in itself is probably a core issue in some ways - it's part of why Zerg were so dominant at the end of WOL and HOTS when it was 'figured out' in my opinion. Generally I think Zerg do have the tools available but just need some time to work out when to use them. I understand your frustration with that. I am not really frustrated lol. I play terran, and I used to main protoss. I'm just a big starcraft nut, brood war is my favorite game ever, and I don't want to see starcraft in general spiral downwards. What tools do they have? The results disagree with you - they don't have the tools to win the hardest tournament How is it fair that 2 immortals and one warp prism can fight sever times the amount of supply of roaches? Or a couple of siege tanks can mow down roaches in droves? Or when Fantasy's widow mines, which are basically "set and forget" units" each have 15+ kills? Or when Scarlett wipes out Keen's expensive mech army twice, only to lose the game because a few thors supertank everything zerg can throw at them and a-move across zerg territory? Or when Scarlett's 35 mutas are just simply deleted by like 6 thors Or when Dark is up on gumiho 70 supply and double workers and a high tech broodlord viper army, but still loses because gumiho has some thors? Zerg players have won none-code S tournaments, but what does that truly mean? Is it okay that Zerg players shouldnt be able to win the hardest tournaments? As good as serral was last year, he hasnt won a code S. That a zerg player hasn't won code S says nothing about balance, it really doesn't, just drop that weird argument. Zerg is struggling however and I agree that the problem is probably the roach being to "weak", on the other hand I hated how it was before the queen nerf when zerg just built queens, defended, macroed up and won. Defence was too cheap and easy for zerg back then, I don't really believe hydras is the answer but having zerg tech up SHOULD be the answer, it makes the most sense. Both protoss and terrans gets lair level tech structures and units super early compared to the zerg in standard none all-in games. Could anyone imagine protoss staying on gateways and twilight in standard games for as long as zerg takes before building a tier 2 structure that requires lair? Or Terran staying on only barracks..... As zerg plays today they defend terran and protoss high tech compositions (compared to zerg hatchery tech) with lings, bling and roach while using the queen as a crutch defensively. My guess is that the problem is that most lair tech (mutas/SH/hydras) requires a high amount of units (critical mass) to make a big difference while compared with medivacs, tanks, mines, immortals or archons, a few can really make a big difference. Since for zerg they need many putting a lot of economy into tech but not having time to get many only makes it less likely you will be able to defend or attack successfully. On the other land logically zerg unlike other races only need 1 tech structure to open up the possiblity to make a lot of units at the same time, it should be a relatively cheap thing to do. The problem is that its not worth it even if it isn't that expensive. The second problem is that zerg units especially are prone to be hardcountered while their units generally don't hardcounter the other races units. This makes it hard for zerg to have the "right" compositions and intead they have to focus on "not having the wrong composition". Lastly I will add that I don't think tanks are overpowered, they are incredibly clunky to use and hard to move around, they have plenty of weakness to make up for their strength against for example the roach. You nention Fantasies window mines, fantasy played great those games and if a terran just plants WM without putting pressure on the zerg on other parts of the map a WM can end up just killing a ling if the zerg is good. Fantasy forced mistakes and e played better than the zerg in that example. Unlike other interactions, like thor vs muts for example, WM is a unit that doesn't really hardcounter anything if the zerg player is good and microes.
Yeah largely agree with that, especially on Zerg tech/finesse units needing either critical mass or support to get anything done, like Protoss or Terran can do with single/a few tech units like Oracles or Libs
That said I quite like Zerg not having those units at least in terms of how the race feels swarmy. I’d be intrigued to see how the rest of this GSL pans out anyway, soO did win Katowice and they still have some good players in this GSL, Rogue just played pretty badly for him.
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I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, Protoss has topped nearly every GSL ro32 group, I don't expect any Zerg to make it (maybe 1), I won't be watching any games ;p
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On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p
That's usually what happens sadly, if zerg gets any options of aggression they are instantly getting nerfed. On the other hand protoss has 15 different builds and terran has a couple at least
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On May 10 2019 01:25 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p That's usually what happens sadly, if zerg gets any options of aggression they are instantly getting nerfed. On the other hand protoss has 15 different builds and terran has a couple at least
I don't think there was much wrong with nerfing nydus (which was ridiculous tbh and builds like mass nydus SH off 2 bases stil exist) or removing the Guru build.
However, I am curious as to when Blizzard will realize how ridiculous of a change was reducing robo facility cost :D
E: actually I'm surprised they haven't nerfed cannon rush vs Zerg yet, as it would be within their process of roughlessly eliminating easily executed strategies that are fun to one player only (like mine drops or nydus all-ins).
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On May 10 2019 03:22 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 01:25 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p That's usually what happens sadly, if zerg gets any options of aggression they are instantly getting nerfed. On the other hand protoss has 15 different builds and terran has a couple at least I don't think there was much wrong with nerfing nydus (which was ridiculous tbh and builds like mass nydus SH off 2 bases stil exist) or removing the Guru build. However, I am curious as to when Blizzard will realize how ridiculous of a change was reducing robo facility cost :D E: actually I'm surprised they haven't nerfed cannon rush vs Zerg yet, as it would be within their process of roughlessly eliminating easily executed strategies that are fun to one player only (like mine drops or nydus all-ins).
Yeah but overlord drop also got removed etc.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 10 2019 04:52 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:22 Ej_ wrote:On May 10 2019 01:25 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p That's usually what happens sadly, if zerg gets any options of aggression they are instantly getting nerfed. On the other hand protoss has 15 different builds and terran has a couple at least I don't think there was much wrong with nerfing nydus (which was ridiculous tbh and builds like mass nydus SH off 2 bases stil exist) or removing the Guru build. However, I am curious as to when Blizzard will realize how ridiculous of a change was reducing robo facility cost :D E: actually I'm surprised they haven't nerfed cannon rush vs Zerg yet, as it would be within their process of roughlessly eliminating easily executed strategies that are fun to one player only (like mine drops or nydus all-ins). Yeah but overlord drop also got removed etc.
I actually think that both Nydus and Ovie drops were too powerfull and they didn't find any way how to do them less powerfull but nerf them into the ground. No offense, but immortal nydus was an utter nonsense. (edit> similarly nydus getting killed by probes was an utter BS)
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On May 10 2019 04:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 04:52 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 03:22 Ej_ wrote:On May 10 2019 01:25 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p That's usually what happens sadly, if zerg gets any options of aggression they are instantly getting nerfed. On the other hand protoss has 15 different builds and terran has a couple at least I don't think there was much wrong with nerfing nydus (which was ridiculous tbh and builds like mass nydus SH off 2 bases stil exist) or removing the Guru build. However, I am curious as to when Blizzard will realize how ridiculous of a change was reducing robo facility cost :D E: actually I'm surprised they haven't nerfed cannon rush vs Zerg yet, as it would be within their process of roughlessly eliminating easily executed strategies that are fun to one player only (like mine drops or nydus all-ins). Yeah but overlord drop also got removed etc. I actually think that both Nydus and Ovie drops were too powerfull and they didn't find any way how to do them less powerfull but nerf them into the ground. No offense, but immortal nydus was an utter nonsense. (edit> similarly nydus getting killed by probes was an utter BS)
Sure but how is warp prism not utter nonsense
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On May 10 2019 05:22 Nerchio wrote:
Sure but how is warp prism not utter nonsense
I think this is actually becoming a talking point at long last. The Warp Prism is just way too good in every situation.
-Amazing harass/drop play, can pick units up from 3 miles away so the prism is rarely at risk. You don't even need to load units into it so if it gets shot down it's just 200 minerals lost.
-Amazing in conjunction with a frontal attack as you can instantly reinforce your main army and it also adds huge micro ability to the army. (See 2 immortals killing a crazy amount of supply of roaches)
-Cost 200 minerals.
I'm not sure what the changes should be, but one I can think of off the top of my head is make the extended pick up range into an upgrade on the Robo Bay?
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On May 10 2019 04:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 04:52 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 03:22 Ej_ wrote:On May 10 2019 01:25 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p That's usually what happens sadly, if zerg gets any options of aggression they are instantly getting nerfed. On the other hand protoss has 15 different builds and terran has a couple at least I don't think there was much wrong with nerfing nydus (which was ridiculous tbh and builds like mass nydus SH off 2 bases stil exist) or removing the Guru build. However, I am curious as to when Blizzard will realize how ridiculous of a change was reducing robo facility cost :D E: actually I'm surprised they haven't nerfed cannon rush vs Zerg yet, as it would be within their process of roughlessly eliminating easily executed strategies that are fun to one player only (like mine drops or nydus all-ins). Yeah but overlord drop also got removed etc. I actually think that both Nydus and Ovie drops were too powerfull and they didn't find any way how to do them less powerfull but nerf them into the ground. No offense, but immortal nydus was an utter nonsense. (edit> similarly nydus getting killed by probes was an utter BS)
Nyndus was a compensation for big zerg nerfs on queens, creep, small nerf on hydras and big buffs for terran on BC, thors, cyclon. Of course, they finally revert the buff, so they have actually just nerfed Zerg and buff Terran.
It's a pattern for zerg : they remove something, give you something in exchange, but they immediatly revert the buff, but you keep all the nerfs and the other race keep all their buffs.
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On May 10 2019 05:31 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 05:22 Nerchio wrote:
Sure but how is warp prism not utter nonsense I think this is actually becoming a talking point at long last. The Warp Prism is just way too good in every situation. -Amazing harass/drop play, can pick units up from 3 miles away so the prism is rarely at risk. You don't even need to load units into it so if it gets shot down it's just 200 minerals lost. -Amazing in conjunction with a frontal attack as you can instantly reinforce your main army and it also adds huge micro ability to the army. (See 2 immortals killing a crazy amount of supply of roaches) -Cost 200 minerals. I'm not sure what the changes should be, but one I can think of off the top of my head is make the extended pick up range into an upgrade on the Robo Bay?
Yeah warp prisms drop juggling with its range now is quite strong.
Perhaps Zerg need to look back to mutalisk strategies a little more? They are quite good against most of the current pushing strategies from protoss and allow for strong harassment as well. I know that this is weaker since shield batteries though.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 10 2019 05:39 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 05:31 Moonerz wrote:On May 10 2019 05:22 Nerchio wrote:
Sure but how is warp prism not utter nonsense I think this is actually becoming a talking point at long last. The Warp Prism is just way too good in every situation. -Amazing harass/drop play, can pick units up from 3 miles away so the prism is rarely at risk. You don't even need to load units into it so if it gets shot down it's just 200 minerals lost. -Amazing in conjunction with a frontal attack as you can instantly reinforce your main army and it also adds huge micro ability to the army. (See 2 immortals killing a crazy amount of supply of roaches) -Cost 200 minerals. I'm not sure what the changes should be, but one I can think of off the top of my head is make the extended pick up range into an upgrade on the Robo Bay? Yeah warp prisms drop juggling with its range now is quite strong. Perhaps Zerg need to look back to mutalisk strategies a little more? They are quite good against most of the current pushing strategies from protoss and allow for strong harassment as well. I know that this is weaker since shield batteries though.
If Protoss goes for the archon drop - going mutas is almost an autoloss on the pro level, because archons counter mutas so hard it's not funny and with the prism micro they can chase them.
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On May 10 2019 05:49 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 05:39 Dave4 wrote:On May 10 2019 05:31 Moonerz wrote:On May 10 2019 05:22 Nerchio wrote:
Sure but how is warp prism not utter nonsense I think this is actually becoming a talking point at long last. The Warp Prism is just way too good in every situation. -Amazing harass/drop play, can pick units up from 3 miles away so the prism is rarely at risk. You don't even need to load units into it so if it gets shot down it's just 200 minerals lost. -Amazing in conjunction with a frontal attack as you can instantly reinforce your main army and it also adds huge micro ability to the army. (See 2 immortals killing a crazy amount of supply of roaches) -Cost 200 minerals. I'm not sure what the changes should be, but one I can think of off the top of my head is make the extended pick up range into an upgrade on the Robo Bay? Yeah warp prisms drop juggling with its range now is quite strong. Perhaps Zerg need to look back to mutalisk strategies a little more? They are quite good against most of the current pushing strategies from protoss and allow for strong harassment as well. I know that this is weaker since shield batteries though. If Protoss goes for the archon drop - going mutas is almost an autoloss on the pro level, because archons counter mutas so hard it's not funny and with the prism micro they can chase them.
If Protoss goes 2-base all-in and you go mutas you die almost every time. 2-base all-ins have become exceedingly common so I don't think you can risk that in this meta. In a longer game mutas can be good as a surprise sometimes but the Korean meta is refusing standard games.
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Bisutopia19316 Posts
On May 10 2019 05:22 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 04:58 deacon.frost wrote:On May 10 2019 04:52 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 03:22 Ej_ wrote:On May 10 2019 01:25 Nerchio wrote:On May 10 2019 01:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I just want to point out, that before Super Tournament Zerg had a really strong nydus, that also got nerfed.
So now Zerg has less options, and is significantly nerfed from 2018 (hydra/queen/creep).
You can expect 5-7 Protosses in the ro8, I don't expect any Zerg to make it, I won't be watching any games ;p That's usually what happens sadly, if zerg gets any options of aggression they are instantly getting nerfed. On the other hand protoss has 15 different builds and terran has a couple at least I don't think there was much wrong with nerfing nydus (which was ridiculous tbh and builds like mass nydus SH off 2 bases stil exist) or removing the Guru build. However, I am curious as to when Blizzard will realize how ridiculous of a change was reducing robo facility cost :D E: actually I'm surprised they haven't nerfed cannon rush vs Zerg yet, as it would be within their process of roughlessly eliminating easily executed strategies that are fun to one player only (like mine drops or nydus all-ins). Yeah but overlord drop also got removed etc. I actually think that both Nydus and Ovie drops were too powerfull and they didn't find any way how to do them less powerfull but nerf them into the ground. No offense, but immortal nydus was an utter nonsense. (edit> similarly nydus getting killed by probes was an utter BS) Sure but how is warp prism not utter nonsense
In several other threads many of us agree warp prism is too strong. If it had warp as an upgrade or ranged pick up as an upgrade the problem would be solved.
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Northern Ireland26450 Posts
Pickup range is just silly, I don’t think it needs pulled back THAT much, but people can get away with relative sloppiness in warp prism positioning and still benefit from the lift micro.
I actually really like some of the juggling it’s pretty cool, but if it was made that bit harder it’d make those pushes harder to execute and easier to appreciate.
I can’t see the top Protoss players actually struggling to micro with a change, but I think it may add an extra difficulty when it comes to taking the camera away from the push too.
I dunno, it’s the proposed change I’d want to see first, the prism gives so many divergent aggressive and hard to prepare for pressures vT, and pushes vZ that even Zergs that know it’s coming struggle to stop.
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