EPTFantasy and Parting into the RO16.
If you would have told me this 1-3 years ago I would have rolled on the floor laughing my ass off.
[GSL 2019] Season 2 - Ro32 Group G - Page 7
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
Fantasy and Parting into the RO16. If you would have told me this 1-3 years ago I would have rolled on the floor laughing my ass off. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2661 Posts
On May 08 2019 21:42 Durnuu wrote: Though to be fair, in the end it only boils down to one, maybe two upsets (Patience obviously, and some people would argue Hurricane to be an upset). Everything else was expected An 8/3/3 split doesn't happens just because of 1-2 upsets. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On May 08 2019 21:52 Penev wrote: A 9P 4T 3Z RO16 looks likely.. As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do  | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On May 08 2019 22:45 deacon.frost wrote: As we read multiple times, everything is fine, Cyber Forest is fine, everybody needs to play better as Protoss players do Hahaha I needed this. People thinking the game is balanced are wild. And what bothers me is that if people admit there are balance issues it's just TvP. Zerg has a 35.3% win rate against Terran in this GSL (!) Zerg has a 40% winrate against Protoss (!) TvP is actually the most balanced matchup lmao | ||
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Elentos
55586 Posts
On May 08 2019 22:27 Lexender wrote: An 8/3/3 split doesn't happens just because of 1-2 upsets. 2 different outcomes and it's 6/4/4, which would be fine since the ideal race distribution in Ro16 is 6/5/5. Though since it's unlikely sOs is eliminated in groups, we're technically 3 upsets (let's blame Patience, Hurricane and PartinG) away from balanced distribution. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On May 08 2019 23:20 Elentos wrote: 2 different outcomes and it's 6/4/4, which would be fine since the ideal race distribution in Ro16 is 6/5/5. Though since it's unlikely sOs is eliminated in groups, we're technically 3 upsets (let's blame Patience, Hurricane and PartinG) away from balanced distribution. While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Zerg had 1 upset this RO32 with Impact topping his group while Rogue and Solar got knocked out. Terran had 1 upset this RO32 with Fantasy while Maru and Cure got knocked out. No terran topped his group. Protoss had 3 upsets this RO 32 with Patience, Hurricane and Parting. Zest got knocked out, in 5/7 groups protoss topped their group. Also the argument "only" three upsets makes it sound like Trap and herO were very favored in group F against Scarlett and Keen. I don't really think thats correct, I would say that was a very open group and Scarlett very well could have advanced. It just so happens protoss seems to win almost every group and they seem to knock all the other races out. Sure it could be pure chance, maybe Patience, Hurricane and Parting are hitting their peak but you know what, this isn't the first tournament we see this pattern. For some reason the universe seems to make protoss get full house on pure chance 10 times in a row, no problem though guys, its just luck. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
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Elentos
55586 Posts
On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote: While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Well, what we see as an upset is a result of our biases so it's not a great measure to begin with. Scarlett beating Trap would have been a huge upset to me, but to you not as much. And I'm not gonna say whether there is or isn't something wrong with Protoss. Statistically it definitely looks that way. But I also don't want to absolve the players who got eliminated from all the mistakes they made by simply saying "Well Protoss". | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On May 09 2019 00:24 xelnaga_empire wrote: Wow, at least 8 Protoss will be in the Round of 16. This is after 7 Protoss out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals. Protoss is doing really well in the last few months. 9th inc with sOs | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7312 Posts
Now that we clarified that, I feel like as Z and T, one (big) mistake like a bad engagement costs you the game while Protoss are more like cats with 7 lives and you can always comeback with WP micro, some zealot runby or other stuff | ||
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Moonerz
United States464 Posts
Ro16 possible 9/16 Toss won't be great, but maybe there will be an all toss group so we can see some diversity in the Ro8. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 09 2019 00:11 Elentos wrote: Well, what we see as an upset is a result of our biases so it's not a great measure to begin with. Scarlett beating Trap would have been a huge upset to me, but to you not as much. And I'm not gonna say whether there is or isn't something wrong with Protoss. Statistically it definitely looks that way. But I also don't want to absolve the players who got eliminated from all the mistakes they made by simply saying "Well Protoss". According to Aligulac, Scarlett beating Trap or herO definitely wouldn't have been a "huge upset", considering her ZvP rating is 2647 and their PvZ rating respectively are 2658 and 2630(factoring in yesterday's results); if Scarlett played better against Keen she could have advanced over herO with decent odds. Trap is looking quite strong now that his PvP has improved; he should have reasonably advanced, as he did in fact. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On May 09 2019 01:35 Xain0n wrote: According to Aligulac, Scarlett beating Trap or herO definitely wouldn't have been a "huge upset", considering her ZvP rating is 2647 and their PvZ rating respectively are 2658 and 2630(factoring in yesterday's results); if Scarlett played better against Keen she could have advanced over herO with decent odds. Trap is looking quite strong now that his PvP has improved, he should have reasonably advanced, as he did in fact. according to Aligulac, the 2 best players in the world aren't in Code S + Show Spoiler + but I guess it's still in line with your head canon  | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16084 Posts
On May 09 2019 00:24 xelnaga_empire wrote: Wow, at least 8 Protoss will be in the Round of 16. This is after 7 Protoss out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals. Protoss is doing really well in the last few months. Protoss just has more top tier players in korea. Terran has 4 top tier players (Maru, Inno, TY, Gumiho) as well as Zerg (Solar, soO, Rogue, Dark). Protoss however has 7 top tier players (Zest, Stats, Classic, sOs, herO, Dear, Trap) so it's only natural that they're more represented in tournaments. it doesn't always have to be because of balance. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote: + Show Spoiler + While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Zerg had 1 upset this RO32 with Impact topping his group while Rogue and Solar got knocked out. Terran had 1 upset this RO32 with Fantasy while Maru and Cure got knocked out. No terran topped his group. Protoss had 3 upsets this RO 32 with Patience, Hurricane and Parting. Zest got knocked out, in 5/7 groups protoss topped their group. Also the argument "only" three upsets makes it sound like Trap and herO were very favored in group F against Scarlett and Keen. I don't really think thats correct, I would say that was a very open group and Scarlett very well could have advanced. It just so happens protoss seems to win almost every group and they seem to knock all the other races out. Sure it could be pure chance, maybe Patience, Hurricane and Parting are hitting their peak but you know what, this isn't the first tournament we see this pattern. For some reason the universe seems to make protoss get full house on pure chance 10 times in a row, no problem though guys, its just luck I don't want to go into W/R in Code S since this is really low sample and I would rather go into the fact that Zerg had 4 Zs in the last RO16 and now it will be worse. On May 09 2019 00:11 Elentos wrote: Well, what we see as an upset is a result of our biases so it's not a great measure to begin with. Scarlett beating Trap would have been a huge upset to me, but to you not as much. And I'm not gonna say whether there is or isn't something wrong with Protoss. Statistically it definitely looks that way. But I also don't want to absolve the players who got eliminated from all the mistakes they made by simply saying "Well Protoss". But this is after IEM where we had ZvPCraft. This is after the GSL ST1 where we had 2 Terrans in RO16(one of whom was an invite) and 7 Protoss 1 Terran in RO8. We can see a clear trend in more than just "the TvP". On the top Blizzard removes every map except the most imbalanced one(I don't think any other map has 63 % win rate like Cyber Forest) and adds a gimicky one... seriously. On May 09 2019 01:51 Charoisaur wrote: Protoss just has more top tier players in korea. Terran has 4 top tier players (Maru, Inno, TY, Gumiho) as well as Zerg (Solar, soO, Rogue, Dark). Protoss however has 7 top tier players (Zest, Stats, Classic, sOs, herO, Dear, Trap) so it's only natural that they're more represented in tournaments. it doesn't always have to be because of balance. Let's evaluate these top tier players Maru - out of Code S from RO32, no good result at IEM or GSL ST1, but I will give you Maru as 4 times repeated Code S champ and GOAT. Rogue - out of Code S from RO32, no good result at IEM or GSL ST1 Solar - out of Code S from RO32, no good result at IEM(RO8 for the TOP TIER?  ) or GSL ST1The top tier, ladies and gentle-people Although the results aren't there exactly.I don't know, maybe it's not just missing top tier players... but what do i know xD Edit> And to be frank TY didn't look so sharp recently(well, being the only T at IEM RO12 ... nah). No offense, but this "they don't play good enough" is nonsense when you have balance issues at map winrantes(e.g. the cyber forest) and when you have tournaments with significantly more Protosses and when the top tier players(please read in Jim Sterling "AAA" voice) don't deliver good results except Protoss players. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 09 2019 01:38 Ej_ wrote: according to Aligulac, the 2 best players in the world aren't in Code S + Show Spoiler + but I guess it's still in line with your head canon Yeah, this can't be stressed enough: in the current state when Korean-foreigner interactions are severely limited, Aligulac is not useful for comparing those two, there is simply no way this ever balances into a single pool of rankings. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 08 2019 23:34 Shuffleblade wrote: While you are right, I wonder how come there were three upsets where "lesser" protoss players knocked out "superior" players whom were terran, zerg and terran. Zerg had 1 upset this RO32 with Impact topping his group while Rogue and Solar got knocked out. Terran had 1 upset this RO32 with Fantasy while Maru and Cure got knocked out. No terran topped his group. Protoss had 3 upsets this RO 32 with Patience, Hurricane and Parting. Zest got knocked out, in 5/7 groups protoss topped their group. Also the argument "only" three upsets makes it sound like Trap and herO were very favored in group F against Scarlett and Keen. I don't really think thats correct, I would say that was a very open group and Scarlett very well could have advanced. It just so happens protoss seems to win almost every group and they seem to knock all the other races out. Sure it could be pure chance, maybe Patience, Hurricane and Parting are hitting their peak but you know what, this isn't the first tournament we see this pattern. For some reason the universe seems to make protoss get full house on pure chance 10 times in a row, no problem though guys, its just luck. PartinG beating Cure isn't really an upset and the idea he would be peaking in 2019 is hilarious while Patience has been playing better than usual the whole year, he seems to be slowly regaining his 2016's shape; Hurricane's victories against Rogue and Solar came unexpected but we can say he deserved to advance. Protoss have been overperforming in the last month, slaughtering Terran in the qualifiers of the Super Tournament(not so much in the event going 8-9 in maps overall) and, especially, Zerg on the main stage(4-0 in series). In Code S, they are having a quite impressive conversion rate into the ro16 at the expense of both Terran and Zerg; however, as Charoisaur says, Korea in 2019 is a Protoss heavy environment, simply looking at the field we could have reasonably expected seven Protoss to make it to the ro16. Zerg having problems in Code S is hardly a surprise but they are struggling too much with PvZ in comparison to the past(not to mention cheese and timing pushes are increased so that the matchup is faster, more brutal and, to my tastes at least, less enjoyable to watch); Terran are at least winning quite often in TvZ in this tournament while Zerg are just underwhelming(so weird I instead mostly see people complaining of how broken TvP is in their opinion). If this trend goes on(it has to be noted foreign Protoss didn't have comparably strong showings) probably some balance revision is due(Warp prism/Immortal range, maybe?); however, it's not like we come from a period of Protoss domination like the constant balance whine would suggest. | ||
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PsiOnic14
United States47 Posts
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Moonerz
United States464 Posts
On May 09 2019 03:01 Xain0n wrote: PartinG beating Cure isn't really an upset and the idea he would be peaking in 2019 is hilarious while Patience has been playing better than usual the whole year, he seems to be slowly regaining his 2016's shape; Hurricane's victories against Rogue and Solar came unexpected but we can say he deserved to advance. Protoss have been overperforming in the last month, slaughtering Terran in the qualifiers of the Super Tournament(not so much in the event going 8-9 in maps overall) and, especially, Zerg on the main stage(4-0 in series). In Code S, they are having a quite impressive conversion rate into the ro16 at the expense of both Terran and Zerg; however, as Charoisaur says, Korea in 2019 is a Protoss heavy environment, simply looking at the field we could have reasonably expected seven Protoss to make it to the ro16. Zerg having problems in Code S is hardly a surprise but they are struggling too much with PvZ in comparison to the past(not to mention cheese and timing pushes are increased so that the matchup is faster, more brutal and, to my tastes at least, less enjoyable to watch); Terran are at least winning quite often in TvZ in this tournament while Zerg are just underwhelming(so weird I instead mostly see people complaining of how broken TvP is in their opinion). If this trend goes on(it has to be noted foreign Protoss didn't have comparably strong showings) probably some balance revision is due(Warp prism/Immortal range, maybe?); however, it's not like we come from a period of Protoss domination like the constant balance whine would suggest. I dont know why you always revert to saying "it's not a period of Protoss domination". They have a big patch at the end of the year and since then we have seen these types of results. Past patch/years balance means nothing in this discussion | ||
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