Post a replay actually doing the exact same unit timings with a lot more workers and people will take you seriously
The new era of macro has begun 00:01 - Page 4
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iopq
United States813 Posts
Post a replay actually doing the exact same unit timings with a lot more workers and people will take you seriously | ||
Kurao
215 Posts
Maybe OP could enlighten me, but I feel like comparing an AI's "perfect" gameplay and implementing that straight to the human's play isn't optimal or the best approach. Not saying you can't learn from it, but I wouldn't go as far as saying this is going to be ground-breaking. We're all humans, after all. | ||
Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Moataz
Egypt267 Posts
On November 03 2018 09:40 Kurao wrote: The graphs are cool and all, (certainly filled with data), but I don't exactly see how this would be practical for a learning player or a pro to utilize in an actual game. Maybe OP could enlighten me, but I feel like comparing an AI's "perfect" gameplay and implementing that straight to the human's play isn't optimal or the best approach. Not saying you can't learn from it, but I wouldn't go as far as saying this is going to be ground-breaking. We're all humans, after all. Ok I'll enlight you, you see that it's not practical because, you didn't try it, as simple as that, many of the people that are talking here are just talking about it, with a very few knowledge about what they're talking about, while they mightn't gave it a 5 mins tryout. fair enough to judge? On November 03 2018 08:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You still don't understand. You haven't proved that you can have 10 Probes more than Bisu from that specific base-timing, because you haven't followed that specific base-timing at all. In fact you haven't followed any timing at all except the nexus timings. Do you know what tech, units and buildings he is aiming to have? Maybe there is leeway in his build to wait and scout and respond to his opponent? Do you have his tech, his units, his production? No you don't all; you have is cyber core and a gateway and a dragoon. You have no idea what Best is trying to acheive, what timings he is trying to hit all before 9 mins and beyond, and how neccessary it is to cut probes or not, nor do you seem to have any idea what probe count he is trying to hit. Heck for all we know, he might had hit all his timing exactly and he was aiming to have exactly 63 probes at 9 mins and never makes anymore drones for the rest of the game. All you know is that he cut workers, but you don't know why, yet you assume that he was aiming to make as many workers as possible at the expense of everything else. You got a massive knowledge gap which I am telling you exactly what you are lacking, but you are refusing to acknowledge it. I know if I made the exact replay with same & more units, more supply, more workers , some of you would still argue, Its up to guys, not the CoachAI (even if Bisu coachs someone that isn't ambitious enough, it won't help) And you're saying "Best" again while I've told you here that he is Bisu, you're also confusing Probes with Drones, whatever. It doesn't matter why they cut workers, at least that's not the CoachAI job, you have eyes, and can conclude. Mission accomplished. On November 03 2018 08:43 fazek42 wrote: xD I think we can clearly say that we are getting trolled hard based on this response :D Nice thread Yes, it is nice thread, it tells how many argumentative/destructive/envy/spiteful persons in this world, thanks for clarifying that more, I'm out of this thread, as you suggest, but will continue to develop the CoachAI, if you don't mind. I just remember a similar dead topic in TL that has less than tithe the features that in the CoachAI, this topic has +300 comment and all guys there are looking at it as a miracle ! Sorry, I could only fix bugs, but not envy/grudge. Please also note that I'm taking about Korean pros in this topic, not the poor guys below, but even if a Korean pro denied that this tool might help him and that he has all the focus in game nevertheless and he doesn't need any statistical info about his games !, other players may use this against him and see what he can't, and it would still be a helper tool for them, Bye | ||
Chrysanthemum
55 Posts
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Bonyth
Poland512 Posts
- we have no map hack, we often skip worker production because we don't feel safe, we don't want to die, so we prioritize safety over greed - and the other way around, sometimes we want to make as many units as possible, to hit a certain timing, hoping the opponent is gonna over-macro If your intention is to say that we are mistaken to cut worker production due to safety, timings etc, you are WRONG If your intention is to make us pay more attention during the game to not skip worker production BY ACCIDENT, you are helping. But then again, sometimes it's hard to distinguish a human's error from a safety precaution. So it's mostly about decision making. Also, I would find it more helpful if you posted a couple of tables with calculations how much minerals we ended up behind when continuosly making workers, but not sending them to minerals right away. For example if I have made 5 idle probes, and send them to minerals with the 6th one just popping out. A table depending on how many probes I currently have in the mineral line and how many mineral fields are in the base. That would be some valueable knowledge for me. | ||
Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On November 03 2018 08:16 Moataz wrote: I didn't say its complete remake, it was just to prove that a player other than Flash could have ~20 workers more, you can try to mimic the build exactly but that is not the point. And you're analyzing the replay strategically, while the purpose is to look at the macro only. And unfortunately, you didn't answer "how can anyone have ~20 workers more than Flash, is it some kind of cheat/hack ?" Lastly, did you look @the game time @9:00 and see 73 SCV ? Wouldn't you always just straight up lose the game if you don't build a refinery until 30 supply? | ||
Cheesefome
307 Posts
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Jealous
10079 Posts
On November 03 2018 10:18 Moataz wrote: Please also note that I'm taking about Korean pros in this topic, not the poor guys below, but even if a Korean pro denied that this tool might help him and that he has all the focus in game nevertheless and he doesn't need any statistical info about his games !, other players may use this against him and see what he can't, and it would still be a helper tool for them, Bye Did you need help sticking your head this far up your own ass, or did you achieve it all on your own? | ||
iCCup.Trent
Argentina450 Posts
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/484849-improving-mineral-gathering-rate-in-brood-war Now that is how you improve your macro. Does require quite some apm though... | ||
wslkgmlk
Australia38 Posts
Essentially what you would do is detect when players build something other than a worker and determine if it is a deliberate worker cut or if the player fucked up. This would allow players to pinpoint moments where worker production halted because of a distraction or a mistake and not because of the build order they were following in that game. It would be up to the player to determine which worker production halts were for good reason (e.g. there was a massive battle happening somewhere at that time) and which were because they messed stuff up. That would give players a good idea on what to focus and work on during their following games. I've included below some pseudocode to give you an idea of what it should look like, there might be a few bugs so a bit of tweaking would be required in that case:
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aka-Moataz
Egypt3 Posts
On November 03 2018 06:15 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Actually at the Italy event when foreigners asked FBH for advice FBH told them unironically to work on constant worker production and quickly sending them to mine and that it was something even he and other pros can improve on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Oh why didn't I see that early, So if I've FBH's fame/skill when I've made this topic, that would make much sense ? really ?, I mean rarely anyone would disagree with famous casters (because if someone does: How dare u, stupid newbie, these guys understand the game more than anyone else, what do u know kid ?), Also, I'm not giving or asking game/strategic advises here, I'm just a programmer, so the talk about (why) players cut workers or the amount of tasks the player need to do isn't relevant/useful, it doesn't help/harm what the tool does, and doesn't lessen the discovery. Thanks FBH for trying to help, theoretically. CoachAI v3.24:
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TelecoM
United States10632 Posts
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Jealous
10079 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Rodya
546 Posts
If there were still pro teams, then coaches would take this tool seriously and try to see if there was a way they could exploit it to improve team performance. And that is really all the OP is saying: "here I made a flexible tool with many features, try to see what use you can make of it, and let me know how it goes!". Once you realize this, many of the responses in this thread are perplexing. | ||
Jealous
10079 Posts
On December 23 2018 04:18 Rodya wrote: A lot of people here keep rehashing the same point: that people intentionally cut worker production. Congratulations on being smart enough to notice that, but not being patient enough to realize that the OP now undertands this. That doesn't mean that your worker production is optimized. I feel like this tool could be really useful for coming up with new builds. If there were still pro teams, then coaches would take this tool seriously and try to see if there was a way they could exploit it to improve team performance. And that is really all the OP is saying: "here I made a flexible tool with many features, try to see what use you can make of it, and let me know how it goes!". Once you realize this, many of the responses in this thread are perplexing. What about the point that making workers and sending them to mine when there are more pressing things to attend to is an inevitable part of Brood War even at pro level, thus having constant worker production/sending to mine as a foundation for some super optimized build is unrealistic and demonstrated the lack of perspective that Moataz has? What if I made a bot that had superhuman Probe micro, maybe pro coaches would realize that Probe rush is the best strategy in the game and that pros should just micro their Probes better? Or that we can skip Corsair for scouting because if your Probe micro is so good that it can't ever be killed by slow lings... Maybe pro Protoss need to just focus on microing their Probe in the Zerg main over anything else, like how Moataz suggests that pros need to just make and send workers to mine over anything else? After all, even 70 apm player can do that right? | ||
Failure
United States2 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2179 Posts
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