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On November 03 2018 05:13 Moataz wrote:
What I really think is waste of time, is when you try to explain tool to someone who is not intended to buy it, or even test it for free, and then he comes to complain with very few infos he knows, and you have to correct some misunderstanding for him, when you're also have written some good manual of what this tool does.
You're right, my bad. We're all idiots here who don't understand the magnitude, the sheer impact, of what you have accomplished. Sorry for wasting your time.
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Actually at the Italy event when foreigners asked FBH for advice FBH told them unironically to work on constant worker production and quickly sending them to mine and that it was something even he and other pros can improve on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I think you can actually make this tool much better by improving the algorithm in the following ways:
1. Always check if the player has enough minerals to make a worker(not just in the beginning)
2. If the minerals go above 50, check what the player spends it on next, and how much is left afterwards. For example if a player accumulates 220 minerals and then makes a Factory, it means this was a deliberate cut.
3. Implement a threshold variable, so people can change it from 50 to a different number, to account for uneven mining rates and other factors.
4. Make the program check for available larva. This would make it useful to Zerg users as well.
With this I believe your numbers would be a lot more accurate.
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another key thing to go along with "perfect macro" is that theres no such thing after a certain point in a game. there are way too many factors, you can pump as many workers as you want but if you dont have a cc or nexus to assign them to then whats the point? in fact they are detrimental to you, you'd rather not even have them, they're taking up much needed supply, what happens if you're getting hydra all inned and you need to cut probes for cannons and zealots? that would go against "perfect macro" but if you dont cut probes and defend then you die, i could make a long list of why the tool is obsolete but if you want to think that its going to change the way people macro then you should be the one to prove it. sorry you clearly have skills in making these types of programs, but this particular one has no use or very little to me and many others
EDIT: people are coming off as harsh because the title gives the impression that you made a program that is going to revolutionize the way people macro and potentially change the game, which is far from the truth, sorry but this is the reality of it
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On November 03 2018 06:17 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
I think you can actually make this tool much better by improving the algorithm in the following ways:
1. Always check if the player has enough minerals to make a worker(not just in the beginning)
2. If the minerals go above 50, check what the player spends it on next, and how much is left afterwards. For example if a player accumulates 220 minerals and then makes a Factory, it means this was a deliberate cut.
3. Implement a threshold variable, so people can change it from 50 to a different number, to account for uneven mining rates and other factors.
4. Make the program check for available larva. This would make it useful to Zerg users as well.
With this I believe your numbers would be a lot more accurate.
Most importantly, make programs compatible with remastered.
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On November 03 2018 02:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Mostaza u re 3/3 in useless threads grats !
xD Eloquently put!
Moataz, you need to re-read the comments because based on your replies it seems as though you have a hard time understanding what the more experienced players are telling you (a common theme with you).
1) Yes, you are right, even the very best players are still human. Artosis and Tasteless say that they are 'gods' because it's their job as sports commentators to get excited and to get everyone watching excited as well.
If you listen to them, you know that they also mention that it's impossible to play a 'perfect' game of Starcraft. The idea is that you decide which mistakes you make, and which mistakes you avoid. That's the tricky thing to master, and that's what these players are insanely good at
2) Yes, sometimes chosing to make the mistake of not making a worker is the right choice
3) Yes, probably a lot of situations of which you think they are mistakenly not making workers are intentional and your algorithm doesn't account for the complexity of that
edit1:
On November 03 2018 06:15 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Actually at the Italy event when foreigners asked FBH for advice FBH told them unironically to work on constant worker production and quickly sending them to mine and that it was something even he and other pros can improve on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
True. And we have acknowledged as much:
On November 03 2018 06:07 Sero wrote:
This "tool" does one thing: tells us progamers don't have literally perfect macro. We know... no one thinks they did, because that's impossible. What stunning discovery will your next thread contain?
But the thing is guys... It's awesome that new people are tearing apart games and replays to figure out how things work. Maybe it's nothing new for us, but it's awesome that Moataz put in the effort. He thought he discovered something new... And this is why this game is so awesome, because we can always dig in and discover new things. So congrats Moataz and keep on digging! BW is a wonderful and complex game.
edit2: And don't let your enthusiasm be curbed just because your discoveries are not actually as revolutionary as you have thought. This game is is old, people have been thinking about it for 20 years...  Maybe one day you'll discover something people will be amazed at, and write a tool people will love!
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On November 03 2018 06:15 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Actually at the Italy event when foreigners asked FBH for advice FBH told them unironically to work on constant worker production and quickly sending them to mine and that it was something even he and other pros can improve on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
honestly man he probably saw alot of noobs playing in that event and realized that they first need to learn how to macro and play mechanically before they start learning more in depth strategy and that was the best advice to give them on the spot. i dont know many mid-high level italian players, there are a few i guess but i dont even see any in BSL this season
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On November 03 2018 06:07 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 05:13 Moataz wrote:
What I really think is waste of time, is when you try to explain tool to someone who is not intended to buy it, or even test it for free, and then he comes to complain with very few infos he knows, and you have to correct some misunderstanding for him, when you're also have written some good manual of what this tool does. You're right, my bad. We're all idiots here who don't understand the magnitude, the sheer impact, of what you have accomplished. Sorry for wasting your time.
Exactly! That's all he's trying to say, we're just idiots.
Another quality thread by Moataz.
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On November 03 2018 04:45 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
I can tell you right now if Bisu is not making workers when the only thing he has are Dragoons shooting a bunker, he probably has a very good reason to do so.
Thread would be a lot better if you posted the exact replays you used so people can look into it themselves. You're basically holding back the most important piece of evidence.
I just looked into the Flash vs Free replay, and here's the breakdown of the first 9 minutes.
1. Flash goes for CC first, as he does in every game of this pack
2. He then cuts to make his rax at 15 supply. This is deliberate as he needs to adjust the timing of his marines to compensate for the extra economy
3. Another small cut after getting the refinery down
4. Another cut to afford a bunker and a factory at the same time. Again, priorities.
5. Another cut when his e-bay finishes, to get turrets up
6. Another cut to afford an Academy
7. Yet another one to make a second Factory
8. Another when he makes an Armory
During this, he does lose a few seconds between cycles, due to:
1. Microing his scout
2. Microing his army when he scans the DT at the natural
3. Microing his army to take a third base
4. Scanning Free's base
I'd say that adds up to a total of under 20 seconds (as opposed to the 225s you arrived at). He also loses a second here and there waiting for 100 minerals, in order to start SCVs in both CCs at the same time, which is a common macro technique used to make things smoother.
Beware though, that even some of the cuts while microing are unavoidable, as micro is something that often requires you to react to what the opponent is doing, so it can't be streamlined the same way as macro can.
For example when he scans the DT, Free may try to run away in a number of directions, or he may try to attack his marines, all of which require different inputs by Flash to optimize the exchange. That's not to say he couldn't have made a worker there, but that it's not that simple.
It's an interesting initiative your have, but what you're going for has a level of complexity eons higher than you seem to think. If I had your skills I'd make a bot that allows people to tell the computer what to do. Something similar to the training stage in Street Fighter, where you can control the AI character, press Record, do a move or combo, then go back to your own character and practice against that move over and over.
Something like this would be very useful to create micro scenarios on the fly, instead of having to deal with map editing and triggers, not to mention the limitations of both of those things.
Thanks rand0MPrecisi0n for taking the time to write this, Bisu replay was already there in the OP from start, and this the FPV (if you're interested).
Can I ask you what tool you're using for analyzing replays?
Can you look @remake of Flash replay @9:00 and tell us how can anyone have ~20 workers more than Flash, is it some kind of cheat/hack ?
The answer is simple, just click this, and search the page for the word "tripled".
I'm not good @c++, and the lowest BWAPI developer might've more knowledge than me, they're just crazy people fighting each other the whole day (I'm kidding, nobody tells them, or they won't help me again)
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On November 03 2018 06:48 Moataz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 04:45 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
I can tell you right now if Bisu is not making workers when the only thing he has are Dragoons shooting a bunker, he probably has a very good reason to do so.
Thread would be a lot better if you posted the exact replays you used so people can look into it themselves. You're basically holding back the most important piece of evidence.
I just looked into the Flash vs Free replay, and here's the breakdown of the first 9 minutes.
1. Flash goes for CC first, as he does in every game of this pack
2. He then cuts to make his rax at 15 supply. This is deliberate as he needs to adjust the timing of his marines to compensate for the extra economy
3. Another small cut after getting the refinery down
4. Another cut to afford a bunker and a factory at the same time. Again, priorities.
5. Another cut when his e-bay finishes, to get turrets up
6. Another cut to afford an Academy
7. Yet another one to make a second Factory
8. Another when he makes an Armory
During this, he does lose a few seconds between cycles, due to:
1. Microing his scout
2. Microing his army when he scans the DT at the natural
3. Microing his army to take a third base
4. Scanning Free's base
I'd say that adds up to a total of under 20 seconds (as opposed to the 225s you arrived at). He also loses a second here and there waiting for 100 minerals, in order to start SCVs in both CCs at the same time, which is a common macro technique used to make things smoother.
Beware though, that even some of the cuts while microing are unavoidable, as micro is something that often requires you to react to what the opponent is doing, so it can't be streamlined the same way as macro can.
For example when he scans the DT, Free may try to run away in a number of directions, or he may try to attack his marines, all of which require different inputs by Flash to optimize the exchange. That's not to say he couldn't have made a worker there, but that it's not that simple.
It's an interesting initiative your have, but what you're going for has a level of complexity eons higher than you seem to think. If I had your skills I'd make a bot that allows people to tell the computer what to do. Something similar to the training stage in Street Fighter, where you can control the AI character, press Record, do a move or combo, then go back to your own character and practice against that move over and over.
Something like this would be very useful to create micro scenarios on the fly, instead of having to deal with map editing and triggers, not to mention the limitations of both of those things. Thanks rand0MPrecisi0n for taking the time to write this, Bisu replay was already there in the OP from start, and this the FPV (if you're interested). Can I ask you what tool you're using for analyzing replays? Can you look @remake of Flash replay @9:00 and tell us how can anyone have ~20 workers more than Flash, is it some kind of cheat/hack ? The answer is simple, just click this, and search the page for the word " tripled". I'm not good @c++, and the lowest BWAPI developer might've more knowledge than me, they're just crazy people fighting each other the whole day (I'm kidding, nobody tells them, or they won't help me again)
I didn't use any tool besides the game itself. I'll have a look at the remake
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On November 03 2018 04:24 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 03:48 LML wrote:On November 02 2018 11:30 Jealous wrote:
Before I jump to conclusions, have you verified that they weren't saving money for something more important than Probes, or that they simply don't have money for the Probe? For example, it is necessary to stop Probe production for a short amount of time after placing 11 Assimilator in PvT While I agree that there are many situations where you cut workers in order to use minerals for something else, placing your assimilator at 11 supply in PvT is not one of them. You can easily place the assimilator at 11 without ever having zero probes in your Nexus after your 6th probe. Maybe I'm just bad at splitting or deciding which mineral to send new Probes to, but it seems that when the 11th Probe finishes I always have 30-40 minerals and have to wait a tick or two to start the next one.
Or do you scout very early? That also has an impact on minerals and probe production early on.
There are so many factors that play into everything, pros definitely have their build orders calculated down to a lot of those things that we just do by intuition.
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I don't even visit much anymore but I do know when I see a Moataz thread it's going to be amazing
That's some effort you've put in!
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Ok I looked into it, and I have to say it gave me a laugh.
It's not a remake if the player isn't building the same things, at the same time. For example, you took your first gas at 30+ supply, while Flash does it at 16. That means you have 3 extra workers on minerals for a few minutes. You're also building less things, which means less workers busy building stuff, and more mining.
You also didn't do any of the deliberate worker cuts he did, so obviously you're gonna have more stuff.
For example he makes his CC at 13, then makes a worker with the next 50 minerals, whereas you make the worker first and delay the CC.
Lastly, you take the second CC at the natural position, whereas Flash takes it in his main, as part of a wall. That means you have access to seven more mineral patches, which will increase your mining rate considerably.
Here's a cool thread about mining efficiency
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/111203-wandering-and-worker-saturation
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On November 03 2018 00:02 Moataz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2018 22:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If the responses seem overwhelmingly negative it's because most of us had seen this misconception that you "have" to continuously produce workers many times before. Also that clickbait title and the sheer presumptioness probably doesn't help either.
"Continuously build workers" is a great heuristic to learn the game and improve yourself, but once you can continuously make workers automatically, you should throw it away and it's not to be used to analyse pro replays anyways. From your picture, 9 mins into the game Best has 3 mining bases and 63 probes. That's actually already over the "optimal" number of mining probes.
Does he need an extra 10 probes when he already have enough probes for 3 bases 9 mins into the game? Probes aren't free to make. Those 10 cut probes? Pretty much guaranteed they were cut so to make units, nexus, production buildings and tech up to hit certain important timings or simply not die. Maybe he is massing gateways in preparation for a big push to deny the third, or just straight up tech to carriers and arbiters.
Props to you though if you actually made an AI that perfectly copies the build with the the same tech and buildings and units and still came out 10 probes ahead though, that would be amazing. But it doesn't seem to do that. You mean Bisu replay, the 9mins isn't imperative, you can change it to whatever you like, if this is over the "optimal" number of mining probes, the player can take 4th base, or better, only build, for example, 2nd base and test to see what the optimal time to reach 50 workers from a specific 2nd base-timing (maybe it 7mins, not 9). I think its more than doable that a human (not even AI) can imitate same Bisu build taking the economy 1st approach, and have a bigger army/tech, but he (might) want to delay some things few seconds especially early on when he doesn't have the money to make everything. Edit: I think I'm exaggerating on the topic title, but sometimes you need to do this to make people listen, I hope I didn't deceive anyone.
It's not about X amount of probes at X amount of times in a vacuum. You are under the assumption that probes are free to make. If probes are free to make, you would be absolutely right, that those probes not made should had absolutely been made, but they are not, and so you are wrong. If you think 9 mins is not the right time, that's the time in your pic and written examples; it's up to you to go choose another time.
I just watched your replay with your AI program. All your AI does is making probes continuously and no other unit, but a single dragoon (lol) 9 mins into the game. You are under the assumption that probes are free to make. They are not. You can't say your AI build is better, when you would just die to anything attacking you.
Probes aren't free to make so you can't just make a 4th base, because that too costs 400 minerals. It's like TvZ, you have to cut marines instead of scvs if you want to 19-20CC as opposed to 21 CC for a better macro later. Same with protoss. Sometimes the build in early P requires you to wait for the pylon to finish and you can't build another probe, but that means you can make units immediately after and not die to an unexpected push. Now imagine that with waiting to gather enough minerals for various production buildings, for pylons, for units, for tech ups, there will be plenty of time that Best will be forced to wait if he want those buildings and production at certain timings.
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On November 03 2018 06:07 Sero wrote:
This "tool" does one thing: tells us progamers don't have literally perfect macro. We know... no one thinks they did, because that's impossible. What stunning discovery will your next thread contain?
Thanks, I don't know yet What stunning discovery will my next thread contain?, stay tuned.
On November 03 2018 06:07 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 05:13 Moataz wrote:
What I really think is waste of time, is when you try to explain tool to someone who is not intended to buy it, or even test it for free, and then he comes to complain with very few infos he knows, and you have to correct some misunderstanding for him, when you're also have written some good manual of what this tool does. You're right, my bad. We're all idiots here who don't understand the magnitude, the sheer impact, of what you have accomplished. Sorry for wasting your time.
No problem.
On November 03 2018 06:18 castleeMg wrote:
another key thing to go along with "perfect macro" is that theres no such thing after a certain point in a game. there are way too many factors, you can pump as many workers as you want but if you dont have a cc or nexus to assign them to then whats the point? in fact they are detrimental to you, you'd rather not even have them, they're taking up much needed supply, what happens if you're getting hydra all inned and you need to cut probes for cannons and zealots? that would go against "perfect macro" but if you dont cut probes and defend then you die, i could make a long list of why the tool is obsolete but if you want to think that its going to change the way people macro then you should be the one to prove it. sorry you clearly have skills in making these types of programs, but this particular one has no use or very little to me and many others
EDIT: people are coming off as harsh because the title gives the impression that you made a program that is going to revolutionize the way people macro and potentially change the game, which is far from the truth, sorry but this is the reality of it
I'm not crazy to the degree that I would say "build workers even when you're dying", these specific cases you guys talking about is certainly wiser in it, to cut workers, but I'm talking about normal games, like Bisu or Flash one, Bisu was not doing much micro other than attacking Bunkers.
On November 03 2018 06:19 Cheesefome wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 06:17 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
I think you can actually make this tool much better by improving the algorithm in the following ways:
1. Always check if the player has enough minerals to make a worker(not just in the beginning)
2. If the minerals go above 50, check what the player spends it on next, and how much is left afterwards. For example if a player accumulates 220 minerals and then makes a Factory, it means this was a deliberate cut.
3. Implement a threshold variable, so people can change it from 50 to a different number, to account for uneven mining rates and other factors.
4. Make the program check for available larva. This would make it useful to Zerg users as well.
With this I believe your numbers would be a lot more accurate. Most importantly, make programs compatible with remastered.
Unfortunately, this is up to Blizzard, but you can still use both SCR & 1.16, if you want.
On November 03 2018 06:42 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 06:07 Jealous wrote:On November 03 2018 05:13 Moataz wrote:
What I really think is waste of time, is when you try to explain tool to someone who is not intended to buy it, or even test it for free, and then he comes to complain with very few infos he knows, and you have to correct some misunderstanding for him, when you're also have written some good manual of what this tool does. You're right, my bad. We're all idiots here who don't understand the magnitude, the sheer impact, of what you have accomplished. Sorry for wasting your time. Exactly! That's all he's trying to say, we're just idiots. Another quality thread by Moataz.
I didn't say that.
On November 03 2018 07:06 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
I don't even visit much anymore but I do know when I see a Moataz thread it's going to be amazing
That's some effort you've put in!
Well, this might be even more popular, stay tuned, share it, like it, subscribe, etc, everything you do will help the thread, whether you've logic or not, it doesn't matters.
On November 03 2018 07:17 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:Ok I looked into it, and I have to say it gave me a laugh. It's not a remake if the player isn't building the same things, at the same time. For example, you took your first gas at 30+ supply, while Flash does it at 16. That means you have 3 extra workers on minerals for a few minutes. You're also building less things, which means less workers busy building stuff, and more mining. You also didn't do any of the deliberate worker cuts he did, so obviously you're gonna have more stuff. For example he makes his CC at 13, then makes a worker with the next 50 minerals, whereas you make the worker first and delay the CC. Lastly, you take the second CC at the natural position, whereas Flash takes it in his main, as part of a wall. That means you have access to seven more mineral patches, which will increase your mining rate considerably. Here's a cool thread about mining efficiency https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/111203-wandering-and-worker-saturation
I didn't say its complete remake, it was just to prove that a player other than Flash could have ~20 workers more, you can try to mimic the build exactly but that is not the point.
And you're analyzing the replay strategically, while the purpose is to look at the macro only.
And unfortunately, you didn't answer "how can anyone have ~20 workers more than Flash, is it some kind of cheat/hack ?"
Lastly, did you look @the game time @9:00 and see 73 SCV ?
On November 03 2018 07:29 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 00:02 Moataz wrote:On November 02 2018 22:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If the responses seem overwhelmingly negative it's because most of us had seen this misconception that you "have" to continuously produce workers many times before. Also that clickbait title and the sheer presumptioness probably doesn't help either.
"Continuously build workers" is a great heuristic to learn the game and improve yourself, but once you can continuously make workers automatically, you should throw it away and it's not to be used to analyse pro replays anyways. From your picture, 9 mins into the game Best has 3 mining bases and 63 probes. That's actually already over the "optimal" number of mining probes.
Does he need an extra 10 probes when he already have enough probes for 3 bases 9 mins into the game? Probes aren't free to make. Those 10 cut probes? Pretty much guaranteed they were cut so to make units, nexus, production buildings and tech up to hit certain important timings or simply not die. Maybe he is massing gateways in preparation for a big push to deny the third, or just straight up tech to carriers and arbiters.
Props to you though if you actually made an AI that perfectly copies the build with the the same tech and buildings and units and still came out 10 probes ahead though, that would be amazing. But it doesn't seem to do that. You mean Bisu replay, the 9mins isn't imperative, you can change it to whatever you like, if this is over the "optimal" number of mining probes, the player can take 4th base, or better, only build, for example, 2nd base and test to see what the optimal time to reach 50 workers from a specific 2nd base-timing (maybe it 7mins, not 9). I think its more than doable that a human (not even AI) can imitate same Bisu build taking the economy 1st approach, and have a bigger army/tech, but he (might) want to delay some things few seconds especially early on when he doesn't have the money to make everything. Edit: I think I'm exaggerating on the topic title, but sometimes you need to do this to make people listen, I hope I didn't deceive anyone. It's not about X amount of probes at X amount of times in a vacuum. You are under the assumption that probes are free to make. If probes are free to make, you would be absolutely right, that those probes not made should had absolutely been made, but they are not, and so you are wrong. If you think 9 mins is not the right time, it's up to you to go choose another time. I just watched your replay with your AI program. All your AI does is making probes continuously and no other unit, but a single dragoon (lol) 9 mins into the game. You are under the assumption that probes are free to make. They are not. You can't say your AI build is better, when you would just die to anything attacking you. Probes aren't free to make so you can't just make a 4th base, because that too costs 400 minerals. It's like TvZ, you have to cut marines instead of scvs if you want to 19-20CC as opposed to 21 CC for a better macro later. Same with protoss. Sometimes the build in early P requires you to wait for the pylon to finish and you can't build another probe, but that means you can make units immediately after and not die to an unexpected push. Now imagine that with waiting to gather enough minerals for various production buildings, for pylons, for units, for tech ups, there will be plenty of time that Best will be forced to wait if he want those buildings and production at certain timings.
The replay was just to prove that you (can) have 10 Probes more than Bisu from that specific base-timing, he wasn't microing heavily, so I guess the only reason for him not to macro better, is that he doesn't know that he could macro better.
I don't have the time to mimic the build exactly, but you might, I'm sure its doable to have the same units/buildings/tech as Bisu in 9:00 and more workers and more everything, because Bisu himself in some reply I don't remember right now was only 1:30 WorkerCut @9:00.
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On November 03 2018 07:06 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
I don't even visit much anymore but I do know when I see a Moataz thread it's going to be amazing
That's some effort you've put in!
I totally agree, every thread he's made has encouraged LONG time lurkers to finally make an account and comment.
He has the ability to generate 3 pages of content in less than a day, it's more activity than some semi-final threads :o
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You still don't understand. You haven't proved that you can have 10 Probes more than Bisu from that specific base-timing, because you haven't followed that specific base-timing at all. In fact you haven't followed any timing at all except the nexus timings. Do you know what tech, units and buildings he is aiming to have? Maybe there is leeway in his build to wait and scout and respond to his opponent? Do you have his tech, his units, his production? No you don't; all you have is a cyber core and a gateway and a dragoon.
You have no idea what Best is trying to acheive, what timings he is trying to hit all before the 9 mins and beyond the 9 mins, and how neccessary it is to cut probes or not, nor do you seem to have any idea what probe count he is trying to hit. Heck for all we know, he might had hit all his timing exactly and he was aiming to have exactly 63 probes at 9 mins and never makes anymore probes for the rest of the game.
All you know is that he cut workers, but you don't know why, yet you assume that he was aiming to make as many workers as possible at the expense of everything else. You got a massive knowledge gap which I am telling you exactly what you are lacking, but you are refusing to acknowledge it.
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On November 03 2018 08:16 Moataz wrote:
I didn't say its complete remake, it was just to prove that a player other than Flash could have ~20 workers more, you can try to mimic the build exactly but that is not the point.
And you're analyzing the replay strategically, while the purpose is to look at the macro only.
And unfortunately, you didn't answer "how can anyone have ~20 workers more than Flash, is it some kind of cheat/hack ?"
Lastly, did you look @the game time @9:00 and see 73 SCV ?
xD
I think we can clearly say that we are getting trolled hard based on this response :D Nice thread
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This entire post and all the responses you've given just sound super condescending and makes me think you don't really play the game that much. The title itself makes me roll my eyes. Nobody plays this game perfectly. If you had just left it as "this is a way to help you practice making SCVs in a no-rush 15 game" then I would've accepted it and moved it. But to say shit like
On November 03 2018 08:16 Moataz wrote:
The replay was just to prove that you (can) have 10 Probes more than Bisu from that specific base-timing, he wasn't microing heavily, so I guess the only reason for him not to macro better, is that he doesn't know that he could macro better.
is just irritating. You really think that Bisu, a guy who is actually good at Starcraft doesn't know he could always macro better?
Also,
On November 03 2018 08:16 Moataz wrote:
I didn't say its complete remake, it was just to prove that a player other than Flash could have ~20 workers more, you can try to mimic the build exactly but that is not the point.
And you're analyzing the replay strategically, while the purpose is to look at the macro only
Sorry, but Starcraft isn't a game where you can just macro and be done with it. Corners are cut for a reason. If you're going to look at somebody's macro, you need context.
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EPT
