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iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1196 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-03 00:29:46
November 03 2018 00:29 GMT
#61
It only counts if you get the same units out at the same time, not only the workers. For obvious reasons, if you need the units, you need the units.

Post a replay actually doing the exact same unit timings with a lot more workers and people will take you seriously
Kurao
Profile Joined April 2018
215 Posts
November 03 2018 00:40 GMT
#62
The graphs are cool and all, (certainly filled with data), but I don't exactly see how this would be practical for a learning player or a pro to utilize in an actual game.

Maybe OP could enlighten me, but I feel like comparing an AI's "perfect" gameplay and implementing that straight to the human's play isn't optimal or the best approach. Not saying you can't learn from it, but I wouldn't go as far as saying this is going to be ground-breaking. We're all humans, after all.
Yanokabo
Profile Joined October 2018
268 Posts
November 03 2018 01:06 GMT
#63
I guess the Mathematica point here is to not cut workers, since everybody does this at some point. But players know they need to protect themselves with units and army which can come at a high cost. Idle workers is never good and we already knew that from a mathematical point.
Moataz
Profile Joined January 2018
Egypt267 Posts
November 03 2018 01:18 GMT
#64
On November 03 2018 09:40 Kurao wrote:
The graphs are cool and all, (certainly filled with data), but I don't exactly see how this would be practical for a learning player or a pro to utilize in an actual game.

Maybe OP could enlighten me, but I feel like comparing an AI's "perfect" gameplay and implementing that straight to the human's play isn't optimal or the best approach. Not saying you can't learn from it, but I wouldn't go as far as saying this is going to be ground-breaking. We're all humans, after all.

Ok I'll enlight you, you see that it's not practical because, you didn't try it, as simple as that, many of the people that are talking here are just talking about it, with a very few knowledge about what they're talking about, while they mightn't gave it a 5 mins tryout. fair enough to judge?
On November 03 2018 08:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
You still don't understand. You haven't proved that you can have 10 Probes more than Bisu from that specific base-timing, because you haven't followed that specific base-timing at all. In fact you haven't followed any timing at all except the nexus timings. Do you know what tech, units and buildings he is aiming to have? Maybe there is leeway in his build to wait and scout and respond to his opponent? Do you have his tech, his units, his production? No you don't all; you have is cyber core and a gateway and a dragoon.

You have no idea what Best is trying to acheive, what timings he is trying to hit all before 9 mins and beyond, and how neccessary it is to cut probes or not, nor do you seem to have any idea what probe count he is trying to hit. Heck for all we know, he might had hit all his timing exactly and he was aiming to have exactly 63 probes at 9 mins and never makes anymore drones for the rest of the game.

All you know is that he cut workers, but you don't know why, yet you assume that he was aiming to make as many workers as possible at the expense of everything else. You got a massive knowledge gap which I am telling you exactly what you are lacking, but you are refusing to acknowledge it.

I know if I made the exact replay with same & more units, more supply, more workers , some of you would still argue, Its up to guys, not the CoachAI (even if Bisu coachs someone that isn't ambitious enough, it won't help)

And you're saying "Best" again while I've told you here that he is Bisu, you're also confusing Probes with Drones, whatever. It doesn't matter why they cut workers, at least that's not the CoachAI job, you have eyes, and can conclude.

Mission accomplished.


On November 03 2018 08:43 fazek42 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2018 08:16 Moataz wrote:
I didn't say its complete remake, it was just to prove that a player other than Flash could have ~20 workers more, you can try to mimic the build exactly but that is not the point.

And you're analyzing the replay strategically, while the purpose is to look at the macro only.

And unfortunately, you didn't answer "how can anyone have ~20 workers more than Flash, is it some kind of cheat/hack ?"

Lastly, did you look @the game time @9:00 and see 73 SCV ?



xD

I think we can clearly say that we are getting trolled hard based on this response :D Nice thread

Yes, it is nice thread, it tells how many argumentative/destructive/envy/spiteful persons in this world, thanks for clarifying that more, I'm out of this thread, as you suggest, but will continue to develop the CoachAI, if you don't mind.

I just remember a similar dead topic in TL that has less than tithe the features that in the CoachAI, this topic has +300 comment and all guys there are looking at it as a miracle ! Sorry, I could only fix bugs, but not envy/grudge.

Please also note that I'm taking about Korean pros in this topic, not the poor guys below, but even if a Korean pro denied that this tool might help him and that he has all the focus in game nevertheless and he doesn't need any statistical info about his games !, other players may use this against him and see what he can't, and it would still be a helper tool for them, Bye
"All who believe in Allah and the last day, either say good or be silent." Muhammad
Chrysanthemum
Profile Blog Joined October 2017
55 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-03 01:38:33
November 03 2018 01:36 GMT
#65
I don't think it's wrong to suggest that these are things even pros could be better at, even things as "basic" as worker macro. I think OP's tool is too blunt, but I presume his point is that a perfect AI could make 10, 15, 30 more workers over the course of a game while carrying out exactly the same timings as a human because the AI could calculate the margins and squeeze in workers every single time the mineral count went above 50 in a way that didn't deviate from the human's actual timings. Let's say you're on an X mineral patch map with Z scvs saving for 200 to make a factory. A computer could calculate exactly how long it would take Z scvs mining X mineral patches and their pathing to those patches to get some multiple of 8 above 200 minerals and exactly when to send the worker out from the mineral line to arrive right at that time. A human can't; even if their timing looks right it'd still be microseconds off. And let's say the human gets distracted for 1 second microing his SCV in the opponent's base, and when he makes the fac he's actually at 250+ minerals. That means, technically, he could have made an SCV before even starting to save for the fac and probably had it out and mining by the time the fac actually started. Over the course of the next 5 minutes that SCV would bring in a lot of money. But that's just the reality of human abilities; they're not machines. And because real people don't have 10,000 APM and can't control multiple things literally simultaneously, they prioritize certain things over others. The 1 second of saving the SCV might yield valuable scouting information that then negates the minor disadvantage of having not made that extra SCV. Who knows. SC is a game of variables and prioritization. Obviously perfection is the goal but it's unattainable.
TL+ Member
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland631 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-03 02:17:38
November 03 2018 02:04 GMT
#66
Moataz, I understand your point of view, so please understand players' point of view:
- we have no map hack, we often skip worker production because we don't feel safe, we don't want to die, so we prioritize safety over greed
- and the other way around, sometimes we want to make as many units as possible, to hit a certain timing, hoping the opponent is gonna over-macro

If your intention is to say that we are mistaken to cut worker production due to safety, timings etc, you are WRONG
If your intention is to make us pay more attention during the game to not skip worker production BY ACCIDENT, you are helping. But then again, sometimes it's hard to distinguish a human's error from a safety precaution.

So it's mostly about decision making.


Also, I would find it more helpful if you posted a couple of tables with calculations how much minerals we ended up behind when continuosly making workers, but not sending them to minerals right away. For example if I have made 5 idle probes, and send them to minerals with the 6th one just popping out. A table depending on how many probes I currently have in the mineral line and how many mineral fields are in the base. That would be some valueable knowledge for me.
Kau *
Profile Joined March 2007
Canada3502 Posts
November 03 2018 03:09 GMT
#67
On November 03 2018 08:16 Moataz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2018 07:17 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
Ok I looked into it, and I have to say it gave me a laugh.

It's not a remake if the player isn't building the same things, at the same time. For example, you took your first gas at 30+ supply, while Flash does it at 16. That means you have 3 extra workers on minerals for a few minutes. You're also building less things, which means less workers busy building stuff, and more mining.

You also didn't do any of the deliberate worker cuts he did, so obviously you're gonna have more stuff.
For example he makes his CC at 13, then makes a worker with the next 50 minerals, whereas you make the worker first and delay the CC.

Lastly, you take the second CC at the natural position, whereas Flash takes it in his main, as part of a wall. That means you have access to seven more mineral patches, which will increase your mining rate considerably.

Here's a cool thread about mining efficiency
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/111203-wandering-and-worker-saturation

I didn't say its complete remake, it was just to prove that a player other than Flash could have ~20 workers more, you can try to mimic the build exactly but that is not the point.

And you're analyzing the replay strategically, while the purpose is to look at the macro only.

And unfortunately, you didn't answer "how can anyone have ~20 workers more than Flash, is it some kind of cheat/hack ?"

Lastly, did you look @the game time @9:00 and see 73 SCV ?


Wouldn't you always just straight up lose the game if you don't build a refinery until 30 supply?
Moderator
Cheesefome
Profile Joined May 2016
320 Posts
November 03 2018 06:39 GMT
#68
I appreciate anything that people like you do to keep the BW scene fresh@Moataz and i can see why the negative feedback can offend you, it's work and time you put in but don't take it personal. I wasn't trying to come off as mean spirite. In my opinion I just think it's more complex than " macro better "
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10405 Posts
November 03 2018 09:52 GMT
#69
On November 03 2018 10:18 Moataz wrote:
Please also note that I'm taking about Korean pros in this topic, not the poor guys below, but even if a Korean pro denied that this tool might help him and that he has all the focus in game nevertheless and he doesn't need any statistical info about his games !, other players may use this against him and see what he can't, and it would still be a helper tool for them, Bye

Did you need help sticking your head this far up your own ass, or did you achieve it all on your own?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
iCCup.Trent
Profile Joined May 2005
Argentina469 Posts
November 03 2018 12:11 GMT
#70
That's pretty cool stuff, Moataz! It's nice to have some replay analysis tools like this. Make sure you blogpost on your findings; it'll look good on a dev cv. Keep it up, and don't listen to the naysayers.
LetaBot
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
Netherlands557 Posts
November 03 2018 15:05 GMT
#71
If you want to improve your macro, just do the tricks I outlined here:

https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/484849-improving-mineral-gathering-rate-in-brood-war

Now that is how you improve your macro. Does require quite some apm though...
If you cannot win with 100 apm, win with 100 cpm.
wslkgmlk
Profile Joined November 2014
Australia38 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-03 18:31:45
November 03 2018 18:03 GMT
#72
What some people might find useful is to add a feature that splits the idle time of a Nexus/CC/Hatchery into two categories:

  • "Calculated" (deliberate) idle time
  • "Wasted" (unnecessary) idle time

Essentially what you would do is detect when players build something other than a worker and determine if it is a deliberate worker cut or if the player fucked up. This would allow players to pinpoint moments where worker production halted because of a distraction or a mistake and not because of the build order they were following in that game. It would be up to the player to determine which worker production halts were for good reason (e.g. there was a massive battle happening somewhere at that time) and which were because they messed stuff up. That would give players a good idea on what to focus and work on during their following games.

I've included below some pseudocode to give you an idea of what it should look like, there might be a few bugs so a bit of tweaking would be required in that case:


Is the player currently making a worker?
Yes > OK
No >
Does the player currently have enough minerals to make a worker?
No > OK
Yes >
Since the player isn't currently making a worker and has the minerals to do so, there are two possible scenarios going on:
a) The player is cutting worker production in order to make something else as part of their build order ("Calculated" Idle Time).
b) The player forgot/is distracted/sucks ("Wasted" Idle Time).
Set boolean flag isPlayerCuttingWorkersOnPurpose = false
Do the following until the player makes another worker
{
Did the player build/train/research something other than a worker?
Yes (e.g. the player made a Gateway) >
After deducting the cost of building/training/researching, did the player have 50 or more minerals left over?
No > OK (this means the player is following a precise build order and a calculated cut in worker production):
Set isPlayerCuttingWorkersOnPurpose = true
Calculate time between minerals > 50 and now, add this time to "calculated" idle time
Yes > The player fucked up, add idle time to "wasted" idle time (this means that the player could have made a worker anyways).
No (e.g. the player made a Probe) >
Did the player cut workers before this in order to build/train/research something else?
Yes (isPlayerCuttingWorkersOnPurpose == true) >
Did the player have more than 50 minerals when making the worker?
No > OK (no "wasted" idle time)
Yes > The player fucked up, calculate time between minerals > 50 and now, add this time to "wasted" idle time.
No (isPlayerCuttingWorkersOnPurpose == false) >
The player fucked up, calculate time between minerals > 50 and now, add this time to "wasted" idle time.
}
aka-Moataz
Profile Joined December 2018
Egypt3 Posts
December 22 2018 13:37 GMT
#73
On November 03 2018 06:15 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Actually at the Italy event when foreigners asked FBH for advice FBH told them unironically to work on constant worker production and quickly sending them to mine and that it was something even he and other pros can improve on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh why didn't I see that early,

So if I've FBH's fame/skill when I've made this topic, that would make much sense ? really ?, I mean rarely anyone would disagree with famous casters (because if someone does: How dare u, stupid newbie, these guys understand the game more than anyone else, what do u know kid ?),

Also, I'm not giving or asking game/strategic advises here, I'm just a programmer, so the talk about (why) players cut workers or the amount of tasks the player need to do isn't relevant/useful, it doesn't help/harm what the tool does, and doesn't lessen the discovery.

Thanks FBH for trying to help, theoretically.

CoachAI v3.24:
  • workerCutLimit, you can set this to 120 (as a goal/target), this will end the game immediately if you cut workers for 2 minutes in the default 1st 9 minutes, and you'll get the message: "WorkerCut too high !"
  • When you enable the custom countdownTimer (dontDrift value) and it reaches 00:15, visual/sound warning will start (this helped me remembering to save the game-state @lets say 6:00), in order to master the game-phases/tasks partially 1st, then as a whole.
  • Minerals-threshold sound warning "Spend more minerals", if 500-750 every 3s, if > 750 every 1s, until 15 minutes of the game.
So wise guys, ahem ahem... "Lets agree to disagree"

TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10890 Posts
December 22 2018 14:48 GMT
#74
There is a reason behind cutting workers at specific times in those builds Bisu / Best / Flash were doing, please believe that they know a lot more about the feel / what is going on exactly in the game more so than you do, there are reasonings behind cutting workers around 9 minutes, interesting post but yet again, just another wild Moataz Theory.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10405 Posts
December 22 2018 18:34 GMT
#75
The new era of alt spamming ban evasion has begun.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
December 22 2018 19:05 GMT
#76
I love how he is still plugging his idea that Bisu is bad at macro because he has 120 seconds of idle time totalled across 3 nexus at 9 mins, instead of that Bisu simply had enough probes by that time.
Rodya
Profile Joined January 2018
546 Posts
December 22 2018 19:18 GMT
#77
A lot of people here keep rehashing the same point: that people intentionally cut worker production. Congratulations on being smart enough to notice that, but not being patient enough to realize that the OP now undertands this. That doesn't mean that your worker production is optimized. I feel like this tool could be really useful for coming up with new builds.

If there were still pro teams, then coaches would take this tool seriously and try to see if there was a way they could exploit it to improve team performance. And that is really all the OP is saying: "here I made a flexible tool with many features, try to see what use you can make of it, and let me know how it goes!". Once you realize this, many of the responses in this thread are perplexing.
Banned for saying "zerg players are by far the biggest whiners in sc2 history" despite the fact that this forum is full of such posts about Terrans. Foreigner Elitists in control!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10405 Posts
December 22 2018 19:32 GMT
#78
On December 23 2018 04:18 Rodya wrote:
A lot of people here keep rehashing the same point: that people intentionally cut worker production. Congratulations on being smart enough to notice that, but not being patient enough to realize that the OP now undertands this. That doesn't mean that your worker production is optimized. I feel like this tool could be really useful for coming up with new builds.

If there were still pro teams, then coaches would take this tool seriously and try to see if there was a way they could exploit it to improve team performance. And that is really all the OP is saying: "here I made a flexible tool with many features, try to see what use you can make of it, and let me know how it goes!". Once you realize this, many of the responses in this thread are perplexing.

What about the point that making workers and sending them to mine when there are more pressing things to attend to is an inevitable part of Brood War even at pro level, thus having constant worker production/sending to mine as a foundation for some super optimized build is unrealistic and demonstrated the lack of perspective that Moataz has?

What if I made a bot that had superhuman Probe micro, maybe pro coaches would realize that Probe rush is the best strategy in the game and that pros should just micro their Probes better? Or that we can skip Corsair for scouting because if your Probe micro is so good that it can't ever be killed by slow lings... Maybe pro Protoss need to just focus on microing their Probe in the Zerg main over anything else, like how Moataz suggests that pros need to just make and send workers to mine over anything else? After all, even 70 apm player can do that right?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Failure
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2 Posts
December 22 2018 20:42 GMT
#79
I logged into this account for the first time in years to post this as my now only comment that you are an idiot who needs to L2P, everyone who is telling you that your head is up your ass and your idea/tool sucks is 100% correct and all the people in here supporting you are also hopeless idiots. Bye forever!
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2358 Posts
December 22 2018 21:00 GMT
#80
this is a good tool for low level players, i don't get all the hate.
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