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OP, I know what you're getting at here but your research is unfinished. Here's what you need to do from here:
* Use your tools to map out where certain builds stand on the aggression-eco axis (difficult to gauge when early harass occurs)
* Have a bot follow said build orders with variations, map those as well
* Compare with the real data, to see if the used builds really are optimal, maybe some of the tradeoffs are not worth it and there's a better build that does the same thing just around the corner. Look for tech timings, specific army compositions, and economy size. ( hey, maybe there's a reaver build that's just three seconds later with much better eco behind it, unlikely but who knows )
* Fish out the most interesting alternatives to the pro builds. Study the builds beforehand so that you know what their intent is.
* Nicely ask some people with better game knowledge to go over said alternatives, as they will know what the caveats are.
* Understand that builds are map bound, subject to entropy as game time progresses, and in general just a guideline. Knowing what to focus on is a more important skill than trimming your probe timing by a few miliseconds.
Your time would probably be better spent just trying to write a good AI.
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What's your source for claiming that these pros don't know off the top of their heads how many workers they would have at a given point in a game? Especially, LOL, since you proceed to do a simple arithmetic calculation to arrive at that number?
A way more interesting and useful endeavour would be to find out what happens if one player gets ahead on workers which are subsequently lost. For example, say in a PvP mirror one player gets their expansion down way faster, transfers probes and starts producing more off both Nexus's, then a short while later loses 8 probes to a reaver drop. For the sake of simplicity say they were also 8 probes ahead at that time. How much ahead are they still after losing those probes? Sure, both players may be even on probes again, but then the player who temporarily had more probes should still be ahead for having mined out more resources. BUT how much ahead? And obviously in this scenario there are lots of variables and things to be tested. But you're not gonna do that, you're gonna dick around telling us a Nexus gives 9 supply and that pros cut workers.
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As people have mentioned already, pros cut workers intentionally as part of their build order. The thesis of this thread seems to be "make as many workers as possible," which isn't the only factor to winning a game.
This thread reminds me of SC2 where it was theory crafted that building CC's was more efficient than building depots for supply lol
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Mostaza u re 3/3 in useless threads grats !
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On November 03 2018 01:29 badpenny wrote:
What's your source for claiming that these pros don't know off the top of their heads how many workers they would have at a given point in a game? Especially, LOL, since you proceed to do a simple arithmetic calculation to arrive at that number?
A way more interesting and useful endeavour would be to find out what happens if one player gets ahead on workers which are subsequently lost. For example, say in a PvP mirror one player gets their expansion down way faster, transfers probes and starts producing more off both Nexus's, then a short while later loses 8 probes to a reaver drop. For the sake of simplicity say they were also 8 probes ahead at that time. How much ahead are they still after losing those probes? Sure, both players may be even on probes again, but then the player who temporarily had more probes should still be ahead for having mined out more resources. BUT how much ahead? And obviously in this scenario there are lots of variables and things to be tested. But you're not gonna do that, you're gonna dick around telling us a Nexus gives 9 supply and that pros cut workers.
My source is the replays. simple arithmetic calculation? that's funny, actually, I didn't see any other tool that even shows how much idle workers you have, not even in SCR.
Your case of PvP doesn't interfere with the usefulness of this WorkerCut standard, you can just compare the 2 players macro.
And your 8 Probe theory is also off topic, the player should secure his workers, you are trying to prove that WorkerCut measure is not useful but you failed, because your only lead is hate, you can try again, don't lose hope.
On November 03 2018 01:51 deathgod6 wrote:
As people have mentioned already, pros cut workers intentionally as part of their build order. The thesis of this thread seems to be "make as many workers as possible," which isn't the only factor to winning a game.
This thread reminds me of SC2 where it was theory crafted that building CC's was more efficient than building depots for supply lol
Some people would say pros do their best that no other human can physically do, or that they cut workers on purpose (even if they're cutting workers intentionally, that would still be counted against them), the truth is: they don't focus optimally or they just follow a non-optimal BO.
And its not "make as many workers as possible," but don't be -1 worker for no reason, got it ?
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This whole thread is a little odd, it seems you have good intentions to create a program and help the community which people should appreciate. You also seem to be very knowledgeable in making such a program by yourself which I’m sure many of us can’t do, but I really get the impression that you’re lacking essential game knowledge and seriously underestimating pros and even high level foreigners ability to multitask and keep a healthy consistent economy as well as modifying their builds accordingly to adapt to certain strategies.
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Please provide some good examples comparing your method and the "normal" method for different build order. Also I guess this is not zerg oriented?
I find this thing interesting, knowing the perfect drone count for each build order, meaning you can't make more unit in X amount of time having n number of drones, but it needs deep analyse before I take it into account. I have low knowledge in maths but it sounds like some optimization algorithms and this could get highly complex. Is it really worth it?
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On November 03 2018 02:43 Moataz wrote:
Some people would say pros do their best that no other human can physically do, or that they cut workers on purpose (even if they're cutting workers intentionally, that would still be counted against them), the truth is: they don't focus optimally or they just follow a non-optimal BO.
And its not "make as many workers as possible," but don't be -1 worker for no reason, got it ?
I think you're still not understanding what people are telling you because you're probably not that great at the game, thus can't put yourself in the shoes of a higher level player. I'm not saying that I can completely understand what they do and why they do it either, but there are some posters in this thread like eonzerg that are worth listening to. Let me try to explain in more simple terms.
Let's say we are in the middle of a PvZ game, Protoss just moved out with a timing attack and is trying to establish their 3rd. Let's see what they need to do in the next 1-2 minutes.
What are the Protoss's priorities at this time?
1. Move army in such a way that Templar aren't exposed or too far behind the rest of the units. Losing your army or even getting a bad engagement could be fatal. (Checking every few seconds, potentially having to focus on this for longer during the engagement)
2. Harassing/scouting with Corsair and not getting hit by Scourge. Losing Corsair makes you vulnerable to Mutalisk, prevents you from scouting well, diminishes your harass potential. (Checking every few seconds)
3. Save 400 for Nexus, place Pylon for Cannon, place Nexus, make Cannons when Pylon finishes, send Probes to new minerals. (This would potentially result in "lost mining time" for you, no? Only a few actions here, so let's say that this is a spread of 5+ separate seconds out of the next minute)*
4. Maintaining unit production after Nexus. (This is also done relatively quickly, so let's say it's a few more seconds in the next minute; this could also force Probe cuts because it is more important to re-supply your army so that if your attack doesn't go well, you have enough units to hold your new 3rd and defend your natural).
5. Adding Gateways to coincide with third saturation. (A few seconds)
6. Making Probes.
7. Sending Probes to minerals.
8. Possibly other stuff I can't come up with right now.
*Now that I think about it, wouldn't 8 Probes transferring from main to natural result in 8x the amount of time spent traveling being counted as lost mining time? And from Main + Nat to 3rd, wouldn't this result in even more? Or did you find some way to overcome this?
While the above order is definitely arguable, I don't think anyone would argue that making Probes and sending them to minerals is more important than any of the actions above it. Thus, if sending a Probe to a mineral happens at the same time as the engagement, doesn't it make more sense to focus on the engagement and send the Probe after you have completed the engagement? Your counter would still consider this as "lost mining time" and you chide the progamer for "not having focus" but his decision to prioritize the engagement over sending a Probe to a mineral was correct because if he had looked away at that specific moment to handle the Probe, he could have missed an opportunity to Storm, gotten his Templar sniped, etc.?
How about if his Corsairs are harassing Overlords in the natural of the Zerg, and he sees a big swarm of Scourge, all nicely spread out and cloned, coming for his Corsairs. Oops! My Probe just finished, I have to go back to send him to the minerals! *Looks back* Where did my Corsairs go?
In other words, at any point in time, if the need to send a Probe to a mineral overlaps with the need to do something else, almost always the pro player will correctly choose to ignore the Probe until a more pressing issue is handled.
This is all, of course, ignoring the obvious cases where cutting Probes is necessary to make a build/timing work, etc. This is why people in this thread are saying that you've wasted your time with this approach.
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On November 02 2018 11:30 Jealous wrote:
Before I jump to conclusions, have you verified that they weren't saving money for something more important than Probes, or that they simply don't have money for the Probe? For example, it is necessary to stop Probe production for a short amount of time after placing 11 Assimilator in PvT
While I agree that there are many situations where you cut workers in order to use minerals for something else, placing your assimilator at 11 supply in PvT is not one of them. You can easily place the assimilator at 11 without ever having zero probes in your Nexus after your 6th probe.
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I agree with what Jealous said. Pros are the best because they know what to prioritize and when. You simply can't be perfectly macroing at all times while also managing your army, scouting, harassing etc. And the player who does those latter things well will crush the player who just perfectly macros in their base at the expense of everything else. If the game were as simple as "more units automatically wins" then perhaps perfect macro would make sense. But so much depends on how well you use those units that you've made.
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As said, there are plenty of reasons why workers are not building all the time. But that does not mean that Flash doesn't know how many scvs it's possible to have.
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On November 03 2018 03:48 LML wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2018 11:30 Jealous wrote:
Before I jump to conclusions, have you verified that they weren't saving money for something more important than Probes, or that they simply don't have money for the Probe? For example, it is necessary to stop Probe production for a short amount of time after placing 11 Assimilator in PvT While I agree that there are many situations where you cut workers in order to use minerals for something else, placing your assimilator at 11 supply in PvT is not one of them. You can easily place the assimilator at 11 without ever having zero probes in your Nexus after your 6th probe.
Maybe I'm just bad at splitting or deciding which mineral to send new Probes to, but it seems that when the 11th Probe finishes I always have 30-40 minerals and have to wait a tick or two to start the next one.
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On November 03 2018 02:43 Moataz wrote:
My source is the replays. simple arithmetic calculation? that's funny, actually, I didn't see any other tool that even shows how much idle workers you have, not even in SCR.
From your original post:
"even top players like Flash, don't know the max number of workers he can get from 2:02 CC, 7:07 CC @9:00"
"if 1 base is idle for 12.5s, 2 bases idle for 6s or 3 bases idle for 4s that means -1 worker"
"Flash replay (@9:00 workersCut=4:07, #workers=53)
Flash replay remake (@9:00 workersCut=0:22, #workers=73) 04:07-00:22= 225s/12.5= Flash was behind by 18 workers"
Looks like you're doing arithmetic to me. Anyone with basic math knowledge can use the knowledge that 1 worker takes 12.5 second to produce, calculate the total time that a player had 3 completed town halls by 9 minutes in a game, and thus the ideal number of workers they could produce in 9 minutes with that particular 2nd and third town hall timing. After all, isn't that exactly how you (using this program) come to the conclusion that "Flash is behind by 18 workers" despite the fact also that 73-53=20 ???
Also how do those replays indicate what Flash actually knows and not just what he did in that particular game?
Edit: I also see on your graphic that you write "you can divide 3:36 by 12.5s (worker train time) to get the ideal amount of workers". That would be a simple arithmetic calculation in my books buddy.
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I can tell you right now if Bisu is not making workers when the only thing he has are Dragoons shooting a bunker, he probably has a very good reason to do so.
Thread would be a lot better if you posted the exact replays you used so people can look into it themselves. You're basically holding back the most important piece of evidence.
I just looked into the Flash vs Free replay, and here's the breakdown of the first 9 minutes.
1. Flash goes for CC first, as he does in every game of this pack
2. He then cuts to make his rax at 15 supply. This is deliberate as he needs to adjust the timing of his marines to compensate for the extra economy
3. Another small cut after getting the refinery down
4. Another cut to afford a bunker and a factory at the same time. Again, priorities.
5. Another cut when his e-bay finishes, to get turrets up
6. Another cut to afford an Academy
7. Yet another one to make a second Factory
8. Another when he makes an Armory
During this, he does lose a few seconds between cycles, due to:
1. Microing his scout
2. Microing his army when he scans the DT at the natural
3. Microing his army to take a third base
4. Scanning Free's base
I'd say that adds up to a total of under 20 seconds (as opposed to the 225s you arrived at). He also loses a second here and there waiting for 100 minerals, in order to start SCVs in both CCs at the same time, which is a common macro technique used to make things smoother.
Beware though, that even some of the cuts while microing are unavoidable, as micro is something that often requires you to react to what the opponent is doing, so it can't be streamlined the same way as macro can.
For example when he scans the DT, Free may try to run away in a number of directions, or he may try to attack his marines, all of which require different inputs by Flash to optimize the exchange. That's not to say he couldn't have made a worker there, but that it's not that simple.
It's an interesting initiative your have, but what you're going for has a level of complexity eons higher than you seem to think. If I had your skills I'd make a bot that allows people to tell the computer what to do. Something similar to the training stage in Street Fighter, where you can control the AI character, press Record, do a move or combo, then go back to your own character and practice against that move over and over.
Something like this would be very useful to create micro scenarios on the fly, instead of having to deal with map editing and triggers, not to mention the limitations of both of those things.
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On November 03 2018 03:04 castleeMg wrote:
This whole thread is a little odd, it seems you have good intentions to create a program and help the community which people should appreciate. You also seem to be very knowledgeable in making such a program by yourself which I’m sure many of us can’t do, but I really get the impression that you’re lacking essential game knowledge and seriously underestimating pros and even high level foreigners ability to multitask and keep a healthy consistent economy as well as modifying their builds accordingly to adapt to certain strategies.
I'm not underestimating anyone, I'm a newbie @mechanics & multitasking BTW, I'm just trying to say there is a level up for everyone, no one even Top pro-games has reached the end of the perfection road yet, but they're certainly the best.
On November 03 2018 03:09 iFU.pauline wrote:
Please provide some good examples comparing your method and the "normal" method for different build order. Also I guess this is not zerg oriented?
I find this thing interesting, knowing the perfect drone count for each build order, meaning you can't make more unit in X amount of time having n number of drones, but it needs deep analyse before I take it into account. I have low knowledge in maths but it sounds like some optimization algorithms and this could get highly complex. Is it really worth it?
I don't understand "comparing your method and the "normal" method for different build order", unfortunately, there are fewer features for Zerg, there is no WorkerCut measure for them. as their way of producing is different, there is no queue for the production or certain structure that is as easy as the 2 other races.
On November 03 2018 04:14 Piste wrote:
As said, there are plenty of reasons why workers are not building all the time. But that does not mean that Flash doesn't know how many scvs it's possible to have.
So how much SCVs Flash can get from 4:00 CC, 8:00 CC, (note that the 8:00 CC will be ready after the default 9mins)
Can we make Flash comment on this, or answer this simple question, or how much time can Flash take to answer this?
On November 03 2018 03:19 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 02:43 Moataz wrote:
Some people would say pros do their best that no other human can physically do, or that they cut workers on purpose (even if they're cutting workers intentionally, that would still be counted against them), the truth is: they don't focus optimally or they just follow a non-optimal BO.
And its not "make as many workers as possible," but don't be -1 worker for no reason, got it ? I think you're still not understanding what people are telling you because you're probably not that great at the game, thus can't put yourself in the shoes of a higher level player. I'm not saying that I can completely understand what they do and why they do it either, but there are some posters in this thread like eonzerg that are worth listening to. Let me try to explain in more simple terms. Let's say we are in the middle of a PvZ game, Protoss just moved out with a timing attack and is trying to establish their 3rd. Let's see what they need to do in the next 1-2 minutes. What are the Protoss's priorities at this time? 1. Move army in such a way that Templar aren't exposed or too far behind the rest of the units. Losing your army or even getting a bad engagement could be fatal. (Checking every few seconds, potentially having to focus on this for longer during the engagement) 2. Harassing/scouting with Corsair and not getting hit by Scourge. Losing Corsair makes you vulnerable to Mutalisk, prevents you from scouting well, diminishes your harass potential. (Checking every few seconds) 3. Save 400 for Nexus, place Pylon for Cannon, place Nexus, make Cannons when Pylon finishes, send Probes to new minerals. (This would potentially result in "lost mining time" for you, no? Only a few actions here, so let's say that this is a spread of 5+ separate seconds out of the next minute)* 4. Maintaining unit production after Nexus. (This is also done relatively quickly, so let's say it's a few more seconds in the next minute; this could also force Probe cuts because it is more important to re-supply your army so that if your attack doesn't go well, you have enough units to hold your new 3rd and defend your natural). 5. Adding Gateways to coincide with third saturation. (A few seconds) 6. Making Probes. 7. Sending Probes to minerals. 8. Possibly other stuff I can't come up with right now. *Now that I think about it, wouldn't 8 Probes transferring from main to natural result in 8x the amount of time spent traveling being counted as lost mining time? And from Main + Nat to 3rd, wouldn't this result in even more? Or did you find some way to overcome this?While the above order is definitely arguable, I don't think anyone would argue that making Probes and sending them to minerals is more important than any of the actions above it. Thus, if sending a Probe to a mineral happens at the same time as the engagement, doesn't it make more sense to focus on the engagement and send the Probe after you have completed the engagement? Your counter would still consider this as "lost mining time" and you chide the progamer for "not having focus" but his decision to prioritize the engagement over sending a Probe to a mineral was correct because if he had looked away at that specific moment to handle the Probe, he could have missed an opportunity to Storm, gotten his Templar sniped, etc.? How about if his Corsairs are harassing Overlords in the natural of the Zerg, and he sees a big swarm of Scourge, all nicely spread out and cloned, coming for his Corsairs. Oops! My Probe just finished, I have to go back to send him to the minerals! *Looks back* Where did my Corsairs go? In other words, at any point in time, if the need to send a Probe to a mineral overlaps with the need to do something else, almost always the pro player will correctly choose to ignore the Probe until a more pressing issue is handled. This is all, of course, ignoring the obvious cases where cutting Probes is necessary to make a build/timing work, etc. This is why people in this thread are saying that you've wasted your time with this approach.
I'm not saying these standards should be meaningful the whole game, the default 9min of WorkerCut isn't imperative, you can change it to whatever you like.
I know that there is a lot of tasks need to be done, but 2 games (Flash, Bisu, not Best) from what I mentioned, there were no heavy micro happening, the most noticeable thing for Bisu replay was, attacking the Bunkers with Dragoons, and Bisu was late by 10 workers as I said.
I'm not going to tell you when its suitable for you to build workers, whether you want to Storm efficiently, or run away with your Corsair, it is up to u when to make workers, I'm just saying don't forget, cause every second count.
I'm not chiding anyone for no reason. please tell me when I was chiding anyone? if you mean when I said Blah, Blah, Blah in the OP, that was for the casters and others that say: "Pro players aren't humans, but Gods".
What I really think is waste of time, is when you try to explain tool to someone who is not intended to buy it, or even test it for free, and then he comes to complain with very few infos he knows, and you have to correct some misunderstanding for him, when you're also have written some good manual of what this tool does.
On November 03 2018 04:36 badpenny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 02:43 Moataz wrote:
My source is the replays. simple arithmetic calculation? that's funny, actually, I didn't see any other tool that even shows how much idle workers you have, not even in SCR.
From your original post: "even top players like Flash, don't know the max number of workers he can get from 2:02 CC, 7:07 CC @9:00" "if 1 base is idle for 12.5s, 2 bases idle for 6s or 3 bases idle for 4s that means -1 worker" "Flash replay (@9:00 workersCut=4:07, #workers=53) Flash replay remake (@9:00 workersCut=0:22, #workers=73) 04:07-00:22= 225s/12.5= Flash was behind by 18 workers" Looks like you're doing arithmetic to me. Anyone with basic math knowledge can use the knowledge that 1 worker takes 12.5 second to produce, calculate the total time that a player had 3 completed town halls by 9 minutes in a game, and thus the ideal number of workers they could produce in 9 minutes with that particular 2nd and third town hall timing. After all, isn't that exactly how you (using this program) come to the conclusion that "Flash is behind by 18 workers" despite the fact also that 73-53=20 ??? Also how do those replays indicate what Flash actually knows and not just what he did in that particular game? Edit: I also see on your graphic that you write "you can divide 3:36 by 12.5s (worker train time) to get the ideal amount of workers". That would be a simple arithmetic calculation in my books buddy.
What you're saying is "ink on papers" the execution is slightly harder (just like StarCraft1), if that easy as you've said why nobody has made it before? Why don't you try to help with ideas or code or specific algorithm, btw you can fork the CoachAI (its open source), or make a similar tool from scratch? but that is not as easy as you think.
FYI Flash lost 2 SCVs before 9mins in the mentioned replay, I hope this answers your question.
BTW, thanks for being slightly nice this time.
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On November 03 2018 03:04 castleeMg wrote:
This whole thread is a little odd, it seems you have good intentions to create a program and help the community which people should appreciate. You also seem to be very knowledgeable in making such a program by yourself which I’m sure many of us can’t do, but I really get the impression that you’re lacking essential game knowledge and seriously underestimating pros and even high level foreigners ability to multitask and keep a healthy consistent economy as well as modifying their builds accordingly to adapt to certain strategies.
This ^^
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On November 03 2018 03:19 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 02:43 Moataz wrote:
Some people would say pros do their best that no other human can physically do, or that they cut workers on purpose (even if they're cutting workers intentionally, that would still be counted against them), the truth is: they don't focus optimally or they just follow a non-optimal BO.
And its not "make as many workers as possible," but don't be -1 worker for no reason, got it ? I think you're still not understanding what people are telling you because you're probably not that great at the game, thus can't put yourself in the shoes of a higher level player. I'm not saying that I can completely understand what they do and why they do it either, but there are some posters in this thread like eonzerg that are worth listening to. Let me try to explain in more simple terms. Let's say we are in the middle of a PvZ game, Protoss just moved out with a timing attack and is trying to establish their 3rd. Let's see what they need to do in the next 1-2 minutes. What are the Protoss's priorities at this time? 1. Move army in such a way that Templar aren't exposed or too far behind the rest of the units. Losing your army or even getting a bad engagement could be fatal. (Checking every few seconds, potentially having to focus on this for longer during the engagement) 2. Harassing/scouting with Corsair and not getting hit by Scourge. Losing Corsair makes you vulnerable to Mutalisk, prevents you from scouting well, diminishes your harass potential. (Checking every few seconds) 3. Save 400 for Nexus, place Pylon for Cannon, place Nexus, make Cannons when Pylon finishes, send Probes to new minerals. (This would potentially result in "lost mining time" for you, no? Only a few actions here, so let's say that this is a spread of 5+ separate seconds out of the next minute)* 4. Maintaining unit production after Nexus. (This is also done relatively quickly, so let's say it's a few more seconds in the next minute; this could also force Probe cuts because it is more important to re-supply your army so that if your attack doesn't go well, you have enough units to hold your new 3rd and defend your natural). 5. Adding Gateways to coincide with third saturation. (A few seconds) 6. Making Probes. 7. Sending Probes to minerals. 8. Possibly other stuff I can't come up with right now. *Now that I think about it, wouldn't 8 Probes transferring from main to natural result in 8x the amount of time spent traveling being counted as lost mining time? And from Main + Nat to 3rd, wouldn't this result in even more? Or did you find some way to overcome this?While the above order is definitely arguable, I don't think anyone would argue that making Probes and sending them to minerals is more important than any of the actions above it. Thus, if sending a Probe to a mineral happens at the same time as the engagement, doesn't it make more sense to focus on the engagement and send the Probe after you have completed the engagement? Your counter would still consider this as "lost mining time" and you chide the progamer for "not having focus" but his decision to prioritize the engagement over sending a Probe to a mineral was correct because if he had looked away at that specific moment to handle the Probe, he could have missed an opportunity to Storm, gotten his Templar sniped, etc.? How about if his Corsairs are harassing Overlords in the natural of the Zerg, and he sees a big swarm of Scourge, all nicely spread out and cloned, coming for his Corsairs. Oops! My Probe just finished, I have to go back to send him to the minerals! *Looks back* Where did my Corsairs go? In other words, at any point in time, if the need to send a Probe to a mineral overlaps with the need to do something else, almost always the pro player will correctly choose to ignore the Probe until a more pressing issue is handled. This is all, of course, ignoring the obvious cases where cutting Probes is necessary to make a build/timing work, etc. This is why people in this thread are saying that you've wasted your time with this approach.
and... this ^^ Basically summarizes why people are giving you negative feedback.
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On November 03 2018 05:32 Cheesefome wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 03:19 Jealous wrote:On November 03 2018 02:43 Moataz wrote:
Some people would say pros do their best that no other human can physically do, or that they cut workers on purpose (even if they're cutting workers intentionally, that would still be counted against them), the truth is: they don't focus optimally or they just follow a non-optimal BO.
And its not "make as many workers as possible," but don't be -1 worker for no reason, got it ? I think you're still not understanding what people are telling you because you're probably not that great at the game, thus can't put yourself in the shoes of a higher level player. I'm not saying that I can completely understand what they do and why they do it either, but there are some posters in this thread like eonzerg that are worth listening to. Let me try to explain in more simple terms. Let's say we are in the middle of a PvZ game, Protoss just moved out with a timing attack and is trying to establish their 3rd. Let's see what they need to do in the next 1-2 minutes. What are the Protoss's priorities at this time? 1. Move army in such a way that Templar aren't exposed or too far behind the rest of the units. Losing your army or even getting a bad engagement could be fatal. (Checking every few seconds, potentially having to focus on this for longer during the engagement) 2. Harassing/scouting with Corsair and not getting hit by Scourge. Losing Corsair makes you vulnerable to Mutalisk, prevents you from scouting well, diminishes your harass potential. (Checking every few seconds) 3. Save 400 for Nexus, place Pylon for Cannon, place Nexus, make Cannons when Pylon finishes, send Probes to new minerals. (This would potentially result in "lost mining time" for you, no? Only a few actions here, so let's say that this is a spread of 5+ separate seconds out of the next minute)* 4. Maintaining unit production after Nexus. (This is also done relatively quickly, so let's say it's a few more seconds in the next minute; this could also force Probe cuts because it is more important to re-supply your army so that if your attack doesn't go well, you have enough units to hold your new 3rd and defend your natural). 5. Adding Gateways to coincide with third saturation. (A few seconds) 6. Making Probes. 7. Sending Probes to minerals. 8. Possibly other stuff I can't come up with right now. *Now that I think about it, wouldn't 8 Probes transferring from main to natural result in 8x the amount of time spent traveling being counted as lost mining time? And from Main + Nat to 3rd, wouldn't this result in even more? Or did you find some way to overcome this?While the above order is definitely arguable, I don't think anyone would argue that making Probes and sending them to minerals is more important than any of the actions above it. Thus, if sending a Probe to a mineral happens at the same time as the engagement, doesn't it make more sense to focus on the engagement and send the Probe after you have completed the engagement? Your counter would still consider this as "lost mining time" and you chide the progamer for "not having focus" but his decision to prioritize the engagement over sending a Probe to a mineral was correct because if he had looked away at that specific moment to handle the Probe, he could have missed an opportunity to Storm, gotten his Templar sniped, etc.? How about if his Corsairs are harassing Overlords in the natural of the Zerg, and he sees a big swarm of Scourge, all nicely spread out and cloned, coming for his Corsairs. Oops! My Probe just finished, I have to go back to send him to the minerals! *Looks back* Where did my Corsairs go? In other words, at any point in time, if the need to send a Probe to a mineral overlaps with the need to do something else, almost always the pro player will correctly choose to ignore the Probe until a more pressing issue is handled. This is all, of course, ignoring the obvious cases where cutting Probes is necessary to make a build/timing work, etc. This is why people in this thread are saying that you've wasted your time with this approach. and... this ^^ Basically summarizes why people are giving you negative feedback.
I have commented on both guys here, thanks.
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On November 03 2018 05:13 Moataz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 03:04 castleeMg wrote:
This whole thread is a little odd, it seems you have good intentions to create a program and help the community which people should appreciate. You also seem to be very knowledgeable in making such a program by yourself which I’m sure many of us can’t do, but I really get the impression that you’re lacking essential game knowledge and seriously underestimating pros and even high level foreigners ability to multitask and keep a healthy consistent economy as well as modifying their builds accordingly to adapt to certain strategies. I'm not underestimating anyone, I'm a newbie @mechanics & multitasking BTW, I'm just trying to say there is a level up for everyone, no one even Top pro-games has reached the end of the perfection road yet, but they're certainly the best. Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 03:09 iFU.pauline wrote:
Please provide some good examples comparing your method and the "normal" method for different build order. Also I guess this is not zerg oriented?
I find this thing interesting, knowing the perfect drone count for each build order, meaning you can't make more unit in X amount of time having n number of drones, but it needs deep analyse before I take it into account. I have low knowledge in maths but it sounds like some optimization algorithms and this could get highly complex. Is it really worth it? I don't understand "comparing your method and the "normal" method for different build order", unfortunately, there are fewer features for Zerg, there is no WorkerCut measure for them. as their way of producing is different, there is no queue for the production or certain structure that is as easy as the 2 other races. Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 04:14 Piste wrote:
As said, there are plenty of reasons why workers are not building all the time. But that does not mean that Flash doesn't know how many scvs it's possible to have. So how much SCVs Flash can get from 4:00 CC, 8:00 CC, (note that the 8:00 CC will be ready after the default 9mins) Can we make Flash comment on this, or answer this simple question, or how much time can Flash take to answer this? Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 03:19 Jealous wrote:On November 03 2018 02:43 Moataz wrote:
Some people would say pros do their best that no other human can physically do, or that they cut workers on purpose (even if they're cutting workers intentionally, that would still be counted against them), the truth is: they don't focus optimally or they just follow a non-optimal BO.
And its not "make as many workers as possible," but don't be -1 worker for no reason, got it ? I think you're still not understanding what people are telling you because you're probably not that great at the game, thus can't put yourself in the shoes of a higher level player. I'm not saying that I can completely understand what they do and why they do it either, but there are some posters in this thread like eonzerg that are worth listening to. Let me try to explain in more simple terms. Let's say we are in the middle of a PvZ game, Protoss just moved out with a timing attack and is trying to establish their 3rd. Let's see what they need to do in the next 1-2 minutes. What are the Protoss's priorities at this time? 1. Move army in such a way that Templar aren't exposed or too far behind the rest of the units. Losing your army or even getting a bad engagement could be fatal. (Checking every few seconds, potentially having to focus on this for longer during the engagement) 2. Harassing/scouting with Corsair and not getting hit by Scourge. Losing Corsair makes you vulnerable to Mutalisk, prevents you from scouting well, diminishes your harass potential. (Checking every few seconds) 3. Save 400 for Nexus, place Pylon for Cannon, place Nexus, make Cannons when Pylon finishes, send Probes to new minerals. (This would potentially result in "lost mining time" for you, no? Only a few actions here, so let's say that this is a spread of 5+ separate seconds out of the next minute)* 4. Maintaining unit production after Nexus. (This is also done relatively quickly, so let's say it's a few more seconds in the next minute; this could also force Probe cuts because it is more important to re-supply your army so that if your attack doesn't go well, you have enough units to hold your new 3rd and defend your natural). 5. Adding Gateways to coincide with third saturation. (A few seconds) 6. Making Probes. 7. Sending Probes to minerals. 8. Possibly other stuff I can't come up with right now. *Now that I think about it, wouldn't 8 Probes transferring from main to natural result in 8x the amount of time spent traveling being counted as lost mining time? And from Main + Nat to 3rd, wouldn't this result in even more? Or did you find some way to overcome this?While the above order is definitely arguable, I don't think anyone would argue that making Probes and sending them to minerals is more important than any of the actions above it. Thus, if sending a Probe to a mineral happens at the same time as the engagement, doesn't it make more sense to focus on the engagement and send the Probe after you have completed the engagement? Your counter would still consider this as "lost mining time" and you chide the progamer for "not having focus" but his decision to prioritize the engagement over sending a Probe to a mineral was correct because if he had looked away at that specific moment to handle the Probe, he could have missed an opportunity to Storm, gotten his Templar sniped, etc.? How about if his Corsairs are harassing Overlords in the natural of the Zerg, and he sees a big swarm of Scourge, all nicely spread out and cloned, coming for his Corsairs. Oops! My Probe just finished, I have to go back to send him to the minerals! *Looks back* Where did my Corsairs go? In other words, at any point in time, if the need to send a Probe to a mineral overlaps with the need to do something else, almost always the pro player will correctly choose to ignore the Probe until a more pressing issue is handled. This is all, of course, ignoring the obvious cases where cutting Probes is necessary to make a build/timing work, etc. This is why people in this thread are saying that you've wasted your time with this approach. I'm not saying these standards should be meaningful the whole game, the default 9min of WorkerCut isn't imperative, you can change it to whatever you like. I know that there is a lot of tasks need to be done, but 2 games ( Flash, Bisu, not Best) from what I mentioned, there were no heavy micro happening, the most noticeable thing for Bisu replay was, attacking the Bunkers with Dragoons, and Bisu was late by 10 workers as I said. I'm not going to tell you when its suitable for you to build workers, whether you want to Storm efficiently, or run away with your Corsair, it is up to u when to make workers, I'm just saying don't forget, cause every second count. I'm not chiding anyone for no reason. please tell me when I was chiding anyone? if you mean when I said Blah, Blah, Blah in the OP, that was for the casters and others that say: "Pro players aren't humans, but Gods". What I really think is waste of time, is when you try to explain tool to someone who is not intended to buy it, or even test it for free, and then he comes to complain with very few infos he knows, and you have to correct some misunderstanding for him, when you're also have written some good manual of what this tool does. Show nested quote +On November 03 2018 04:36 badpenny wrote:On November 03 2018 02:43 Moataz wrote:
My source is the replays. simple arithmetic calculation? that's funny, actually, I didn't see any other tool that even shows how much idle workers you have, not even in SCR.
From your original post: "even top players like Flash, don't know the max number of workers he can get from 2:02 CC, 7:07 CC @9:00" "if 1 base is idle for 12.5s, 2 bases idle for 6s or 3 bases idle for 4s that means -1 worker" "Flash replay (@9:00 workersCut=4:07, #workers=53) Flash replay remake (@9:00 workersCut=0:22, #workers=73) 04:07-00:22= 225s/12.5= Flash was behind by 18 workers" Looks like you're doing arithmetic to me. Anyone with basic math knowledge can use the knowledge that 1 worker takes 12.5 second to produce, calculate the total time that a player had 3 completed town halls by 9 minutes in a game, and thus the ideal number of workers they could produce in 9 minutes with that particular 2nd and third town hall timing. After all, isn't that exactly how you (using this program) come to the conclusion that "Flash is behind by 18 workers" despite the fact also that 73-53=20 ??? Also how do those replays indicate what Flash actually knows and not just what he did in that particular game? Edit: I also see on your graphic that you write "you can divide 3:36 by 12.5s (worker train time) to get the ideal amount of workers". That would be a simple arithmetic calculation in my books buddy. What you're saying is "ink on papers" the execution is slightly harder (just like StarCraft1), if that easy as you've said why nobody has made it before? Why don't you try to help with ideas or code or specific algorithm, btw you can fork the CoachAI (its open source), or make a similar tool from scratch? but that is not as easy as you think. FYI Flash lost 2 SCVs before 9mins in the mentioned replay, I hope this answers your question. BTW, thanks for being slightly nice this time.
Because the information is well known already by the majority of the sc population. They know macro > micro. Building a program that explains how many workers someone failed to make is honestly pointless. The body is limited and because of that people are forced to prioritize some things over others, for example producing marines or tanks or whatever the case may be then immediately jumping back to micro and then maybe responding to defend a drop and then back to micro ect ect ect... depending on the situation.
Must keep in mind that these are players with over 400 APM. That is absolutely nuts if you actually think about it. That's a lot of physical work on top of having to actively strategize against your opponent. This is why most sc programmer careers start to decline around mid 20's. So many players are left with carpal tunnel.
I think some of the things you might be pointing out are physically impossible to perfect when you're exchanging with a player of equal skill.
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This "tool" does one thing: tells us progamers don't have literally perfect macro. We know... no one thinks they did, because that's impossible. What stunning discovery will your next thread contain?
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EPT
