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A ground-breaking experiment for macro that I'm going to reveal shortly, and what was its results, this experiment answers 2 questions:
What is the maximum number of workers I can have from a specific build (ex: 12 Nexus/16 CC) at a specific time (ex: 9:00) ?
What is the quickest road/time to a specific number of workers (ex:50) I can have from a specific build ?
Before I begin to judge pro players macro, I just want to admit that they're very good @multitasking, micro, strategy and decision making, building-placement, etc.., but are just good @macro.
And no one of them is Superman, they just generally exceed other players in one or more of the game aspects mentioned above.
Are you saying that pro players aren't the best macro players already, then who is ?!
I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that their weakest skill is still macro and idle workers, we can see idle workers from observed games in ASL/KSL, but we can't see idle workers status or workers cut status or macro status accumulatively during or even after the game, then we say: WOW, this player isn't human, he is !!!, blah blah blah.
Fortunately for us, even top players like Flash, don't know the max number of workers he can get from 2:02 CC, 7:07 CC @9:00, he might only know his best record, so if someone patient enough the early game and can get the max number of workers of his build he can out macro Flash and win.
I mean can anyone believe that Flash cuts workers for 4:07 in one game, the early game (the 1st 9 minutes), that a 70 EAPM player can make ~20 workers more than Flash @9:00 from the same build ?! ?! ?!
I can't blame the top players for not able to see or sense many things that happen in the game as BWAPI can, the human mind can't do that (even if they record the screen or watch a replay frame by frame), they can't compare 2 games' macro adequately, they don't know if they break previous records by means other than the supply count or the game timer, and SCR, unfortunately, wants to establish this more and hide vital game infos from the players.
For Bisu, he knows that from 1 base he can have 27 Probes @5:00, but couldn't know how many seconds he stopped making workers (if 1 base is idle for 12.5s, 2 bases idle for 6s or 3 bases idle for 4s that means -1 worker), they also don't know how many seconds they've been above 500 or 750 minerals, how much time/minerals lost due to idle workers, etc...
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To assure the macro defect of the previous era by examples:
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"Best" which is known by many as one of the best macro players, has stopped making workers for 3:36 (Bisu=2:28, same build) in the early 9 minutes of a game, that means as the below pic says that he could've ~17 more workers, if he doesn't miss Macro. I think if Best knows that number, he might try to cut one of his fingers rather than cutting that number of workers again.
![[image loading]](https://image.ibb.co/eMwKvp/sc.png)
---Bisu replay (@9:00 workersCut=2:28, #workers=63)
---Bisu replay remake (@9:00 workersCut=0:21, #workers=73) 02:28-00:21= 127s/12.5= Bisu was late by 10 workers
Flash replay(@9:00 workersCut=4:07, #workers=53)
Flash replay remake (@9:00 workersCut=0:22, #workers=73) 04:07-00:22= 225s/12.5= Flash was behind by 18 workers
![[image loading]](https://image.ibb.co/hmOdJL/Flash-4-07.gif)
There is an option in the CoachAI called autoTrainWorkers, anyone can try to imitate a specific build and leave the AI to build workers by itself, to know the max number of workers from that build (that's the core idea of the topic).
This topic aims at encouraging the players-at-all-levels by saying "Yes, you can do it.", and reveal to them in numbers what a 100% macro skill means.
Is it the time to rethink of "building workers non-stop" ?
Anyone agrees We need focus more than APM ?
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Many builds deliberately cut workers for added units/tech, how does this distinguish a deliberate probe cut from simply missing production rounds?
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All humans have lapses and errors. Even the most skilled ones. Humans are not AI.
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Before I jump to conclusions, have you verified that they weren't saving money for something more important than Probes, or that they simply don't have money for the Probe? For example, it is necessary to stop Probe production for a short amount of time after placing 11 Assimilator in PvT. Another example is when you intentionally cut SCVs to hit a specific timing, such as in the Hiya 4 Fac. Do you remove that number from your calculations, or do you blindly count CC/Nexus idle time and nothing else?
If the latter, then this topic is a perfect example of a problem that seems to pop up periodically on these forums. People who don't understand certain fundamental ideas pertaining to a build/unit/the game in general invest a lot of time based on misguided or wrong assumptions, make bad conclusions, and then they usually double-down on these ideas and become obstinate when people tell them that their ideas are misguided. This whole process, which has repeated time and again on these forums, could be easily cut short if people just used extant resources like Liquipedia or the SQSA thread to find out if their ideas are viable or not. Of course, it could be a case of "you don't know what you don't know" or not knowing what questions they need to ask, but still it's frustrating to constantly see time that could have been spent making something truly important or interesting for the community go squandered on silly things.
If it is the former, then that is admittedly impressive and I'm curious how you did it.
EDIT: Removed some text because I misunderstood your concluding thoughts.
Anyway, what's the point of knowing how many Probes you CAN have in a vacuum from a certain build, if playing the game against an opponent makes it impossible or even unfavorable for you to have "perfect" macro? In other words, why does it matter how many workers you could have, if in order to have that number of workers you have to always put worker production and sending them to minerals at the top of the list of priorities, over macro, micro, harass, etc.? It doesn't.
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producing workers sans pause all game long is a very basic beginner macro mistake.
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On November 02 2018 15:39 Puosu wrote:
producing workers sans pause all game long is a very basic beginner macro mistake.
To be fair it seems he mad the coach AI hit proper build timings? From what I could understand.
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Implying that brood war players aren't 'aware' of how many workers they can make in a vacuum with a build
lol
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what is happening ?
all i see in the comments are bad things ! why?
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What I took from this was that Nexii give 9 Psi.
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What the hell. Is this a troll? Acting as if there was no actual gameplay besides macro which would force you stop producing workers at some point.
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I honestly can’t follow anything in this post and I dont have any idea what I’m looking at with all these graphs and stuff. What is a player supposed to learn from this?
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It’s nice that you are making a program to benefit the game but trust me, these worker cuts by pro players and even good foreign players are not by mistake, these are planned decisions based on scouting. Many players above 1900 mmr on ladder would have no problem macroing workers nearly flawlessly on 3 bases but the worker cuts you’re seeing in high level replays are not because these pros are “only human” it’s because they’ve fine tuned their game so well that they know when it’s a good idea to sacrifice worker production for something more important at that given time
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Can you provide us an example of a game where a top player loses 3 minutes or more on worker production in the first 9 minutes? We can tell you how much of that was intentional. I don't think that your tool is useless - I like the idea, but these stats need to be able to cut out certain portions of the game where worker production is halted.
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On November 02 2018 11:18 Lumire wrote:
Many builds deliberately cut workers for added units/tech, how does this distinguish a deliberate probe cut from simply missing production rounds?
Quote !
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Nice Effort but this topic makes little sense ;/
You got some basic stuff wrong 
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If the responses seem overwhelmingly negative it's because most of us had seen this misconception that you "have" to continuously produce workers many times before. Also that clickbait title and the sheer presumptioness probably doesn't help either.
"Continuously build workers" is a great heuristic to learn the game and improve yourself, but once you can continuously make workers automatically, you should throw it away and it's not to be used to analyse pro replays anyways. From your picture, 9 mins into the game Best has 3 mining bases and 63 probes. That's actually already over the "optimal" number of mining probes.
Does he need an extra 10 probes when he already have enough probes for 3 bases 9 mins into the game? Probes aren't free to make. Those 10 cut probes? Pretty much guaranteed they were cut so to make units, nexus, production buildings and tech up to hit certain important timings or simply not die. Maybe he is massing gateways in preparation for a big push to deny the third, or just straight up tech to carriers and arbiters.
Props to you though if you actually made an AI that perfectly copies the build with the the same tech and buildings and units and still came out 10 probes ahead though, that would be amazing. But it doesn't seem to do that.
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On November 02 2018 11:05 Dazed. wrote:
complete waste of time^
If you understood what this topic is trying to prove and have any logical reason for your hate or why its useless, say it, don't just hate and run.
Its not a thing you can achieve before you make your own experiment, unless you already know the max number of workers from 12 Nexus @specific time, or want to play with no goals !
On November 02 2018 11:18 Lumire wrote:
Many builds deliberately cut workers for added units/tech, how does this distinguish a deliberate probe cut from simply missing production rounds?
It doesn't, it even calculates the initial/inevitable cut when you've 5 workers and still don't have 50 minerals yet to build the 6th, also when the 1st supply (Pylon, Depot) is still in progress and you can't build the 10th/11th worker, or even when you've a floating CC.
On November 02 2018 11:28 orvinreyes wrote:
All humans have lapses and errors. Even the most skilled ones. Humans are not AI.
But any intermediate player can do it, it doesn't require a lot APM, just more focus/practice, and the player that knows that this is possible, is not equal to who doesn't even know that he could have that number early.
On November 02 2018 11:30 Jealous wrote:Before I jump to conclusions, have you verified that they weren't saving money for something more important than Probes, or that they simply don't have money for the Probe? For example, it is necessary to stop Probe production for a short amount of time after placing 11 Assimilator in PvT. Another example is when you intentionally cut SCVs to hit a specific timing, such as in the Hiya 4 Fac. Do you remove that number from your calculations, or do you blindly count CC/Nexus idle time and nothing else? If the latter, then this topic is a perfect example of a problem that seems to pop up periodically on these forums. People who don't understand certain fundamental ideas pertaining to a build/unit/the game in general invest a lot of time based on misguided or wrong assumptions, make bad conclusions, and then they usually double-down on these ideas and become obstinate when people tell them that their ideas are misguided. This whole process, which has repeated time and again on these forums, could be easily cut short if people just used extant resources like Liquipedia or the SQSA thread to find out if their ideas are viable or not. Of course, it could be a case of "you don't know what you don't know" or not knowing what questions they need to ask, but still it's frustrating to constantly see time that could have been spent making something truly important or interesting for the community go squandered on silly things. If it is the former, then that is admittedly impressive and I'm curious how you did it. EDIT: Removed some text because I misunderstood your concluding thoughts. Anyway, what's the point of knowing how many Probes you CAN have in a vacuum from a certain build, if playing the game against an opponent makes it impossible or even unfavorable for you to have "perfect" macro? In other words, why does it matter how many workers you could have, if in order to have that number of workers you have to always put worker production and sending them to minerals at the top of the list of priorities, over macro, micro, harass, etc.? It doesn't.
haha, that would be extremely complicated, WorkerCut only goes for economy 1st, it's not a big defect in macro if you cut in the favour of tech, army or specific timing, but not for more than 2:00 I guess, at least Pros shouldn't do that.
The point of knowing how many Workers a player CAN have from a certain build, is that a player can macro better than other player who doesn't estimate the seconds lost (and eventually the number of workers that he could've made) due to cut, if you know for sure that there is a paradise and precise counter for good deeds you made, wouldn't that motivate/encourage you to do better in this life, if your don't believe in hell and a precise counter for bad deeds, could anything prevent you from doing worse ?
"putting worker production and sending them to minerals at the top of the list of priorities, over macro", I guess worker production IS the big part of macro, the other is spending resources.
On November 02 2018 17:30 Nightshade3 wrote:
Implying that brood war players aren't 'aware' of how many workers they can make in a vacuum with a build
lol
ofc they don't, if you've looked @Bisu replay, you can see that he wasn't doing much works other than attacking the Bunkers with Dragoons, which mean low micro, what if he was handling drops or heavy micro actions, he would be not just 10 workers late, but more (or just have more idle workers).
On November 02 2018 20:55 mierin wrote:
What I took from this was that Nexii give 9 Psi.
Funny, you still remember this.
On November 02 2018 21:06 Yanokabo wrote:
I honestly can’t follow anything in this post and I dont have any idea what I’m looking at with all these graphs and stuff. What is a player supposed to learn from this?
You can macro better
or run 100 meters faster if you have a watch in your hand, and you can also break a world record.
On November 02 2018 21:23 castleeMg wrote:
It’s nice that you are making a program to benefit the game but trust me, these worker cuts by pro players and even good foreign players are not by mistake, these are planned decisions based on scouting. Many players above 1900 mmr on ladder would have no problem macroing workers nearly flawlessly on 3 bases but the worker cuts you’re seeing in high level replays are not because these pros are “only human” it’s because they’ve fine tuned their game so well that they know when it’s a good idea to sacrifice worker production for something more important at that given time
The most helpful comment till now, although I think one of the hardest things in this game is concentration, and pros still lose this to some extent, you might know everything you want to do before the game, but during the game, its something else.
On November 02 2018 21:42 Rodya wrote:
Can you provide us an example of a game where a top player loses 3 minutes or more on worker production in the first 9 minutes? We can tell you how much of that was intentional. I don't think that your tool is useless - I like the idea, but these stats need to be able to cut out certain portions of the game where worker production is halted.
The replay/pic I've mentioned about Flash, is on this small pack.
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On November 02 2018 22:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If the responses seem overwhelmingly negative it's because most of us had seen this misconception that you "have" to continuously produce workers many times before. Also that clickbait title and the sheer presumptioness probably doesn't help either.
"Continuously build workers" is a great heuristic to learn the game and improve yourself, but once you can continuously make workers automatically, you should throw it away and it's not to be used to analyse pro replays anyways. From your picture, 9 mins into the game Best has 3 mining bases and 63 probes. That's actually already over the "optimal" number of mining probes.
Does he need an extra 10 probes when he already have enough probes for 3 bases 9 mins into the game? Probes aren't free to make. Those 10 cut probes? Pretty much guaranteed they were cut so to make units, nexus, production buildings and tech up to hit certain important timings or simply not die. Maybe he is massing gateways in preparation for a big push to deny the third, or just straight up tech to carriers and arbiters.
Props to you though if you actually made an AI that perfectly copies the build with the the same tech and buildings and units and still came out 10 probes ahead though, that would be amazing. But it doesn't seem to do that.
You mean Bisu replay, the 9mins isn't imperative, you can change it to whatever you like, if this is over the "optimal" number of mining probes, the player can take 4th base, or better, only build, for example, 2nd base and test to see what the optimal time to reach 50 workers from a specific 2nd base-timing (maybe it 7mins, not 9).
I think its more than doable that a human (not even AI) can imitate same Bisu build taking the economy 1st approach, and have a bigger army/tech, but he (might) want to delay some things few seconds especially early on when he doesn't have the money to make everything.
Edit: I think I'm exaggerating on the topic title, but sometimes you need to do this to make people listen, I hope I didn't deceive anyone.
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man I like your 1.16 screenshots, looks slick :D
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EPT
