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I agree that the upcoming elections probably won't change much about the political situation in Germany. The CDU is pretty much guaranteed to be the strongest party yet again. Really the only question is who will be able to form a coalition with them. I wouldn't mind having CDU/FDP again, though unlikely. I also wouldn't mind CDU/SPD, which also makes sense considering how similar both parties have become. For that matter, I actually wouldn't mind a SPD led government, which however seems unlikely considering that the pesty left is still existent.
Also, I really feel like the op is not biased enough. Neither AfD nor Die Linken are votable. Both parties have beyond ridiculous agendas, filled with populist rethorics and crazy proposals, which they can only make because they won't be able to gain enough votes to actually govern.
On a side note, the greens, albeit having imfluenced German politics positively in the past, currently have yet another crazy agenda, which makes me hope that there won't be many people voting for them...
On August 18 2013 04:31 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 04:03 Daumen wrote:
I wonder why Merkel is so popular... she didnt actually do something I feel, except turn around a lot ... ... I personally will vote for either the pirate party or the AfD.
Please do not vote for the AfD! That's by far the worst possible choice...
As far as the pirate party is concerned, they do have some really appealing ideas. However, you should also consider what kind of people you might end up having in the government if voting for them. Just take a look at Berlin, where they ended up with an 18-year old high-school student in the government...
On August 18 2013 05:05 Nachtwind wrote:The typical CDU/CSU voter statistically is -catholic -female -over 70 -lives in a town less then 10.000 people -has only visited the primary scool -still works (next is pensioner) Only 7% in the group of 18-24 are voting for CDU/CSU. 10% in the group of 25-34. source:Forschungsgruppe Wahlen http://www.heute.de/ZDF/zdfportal/cacheable/24432394/1/4672/e4e31dSo as a side note you can say our government does get voted by old dumb people.
As others have pointed out, your understanding of statistics is just plain non-existent. e.g.:
Only 7% in the group of 18-24 are voting for CDU/CSU.
Means that 7% of their votes come from people between the age of 18-24 and not that only 7% of the people in this age group vote for them.
Furthermore, considering the German urbanization structure it's not surprising that many votes come from small towns. Just take a look at NRW where ~15 mio people live in towns of (far) less than 100k population. The situation in Bavaria or B-W isn't that different.
Also, your remarks about "primary school" is simply wrong. What you translate as "primary school" is actually a school which lasts until 8th grade. Not to mention that almost everybody who only visited those schools received a vocational education afterwards.
On August 18 2013 06:42 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 05:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:Are the FDP still polling terribly in Germany?  The FDP pulling bad results is just about the best thing that could happen, they have a terrible agenda regarding pretty much every important subject. If you're interested in recent survey results here's a pretty comprehensive list http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm
To be honest I haven't read their current agenda. However, in my opinion in the last election they had the best agenda out of all parties. Of course, it should be mentioned that they achieved exactly zero from their last agenda...
On August 18 2013 09:13 Shiragaku wrote:
I would support The Left, but from what I saw, they seem to be a bunch of closeted Marxist-Leninists who are nostalgic for the DDR. Bleh...I am pretty disappointed in Germany's left-wing parties.
Only half of them fall under this category. The rest can be described as delusional idealists. For any practical purposes this distinction doesn't matter though. I really hope they don't make it into the next government, so the SPD can gain some strenght again.
On August 18 2013 09:18 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 09:03 imperator-xy wrote:On August 18 2013 08:38 LaNague wrote:On August 18 2013 07:55 dismiss wrote:On August 18 2013 07:14 Dazed_Spy wrote:On August 18 2013 06:42 dismiss wrote:On August 18 2013 05:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:Are the FDP still polling terribly in Germany? The FDP pulling bad results is just about the best thing that could happen, they have a terrible agenda regarding pretty much every important subject. If you're interested in recent survey results here's a pretty comprehensive list http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm They're the only party I find even remotely tolerable, though far too interventionist and illiberal for my tastes. Still, its Europe, you cant shoot for the moon. You might want to look more into the Green party, they're basically the same thing, except with fewer tax breaks for lawyers, dentists, and a little more crazy as well as an emphasis on environmental protection. the green party is actually the worst when it comes to being illiberal. They are against buying any luxury with money. They want to remove first class in transportation, they would tax "high" income much more, they want to introduce days where you cant eat meat...im sure i forgot many things. Basically, they have a certain ideology and want to force it upon everyone. True, this is why I will never ever vote for them and talk everyone who wants to do so out of it. Seriously, they want to introduce a speed-limit of 130Km/h on the whole Autobahn. To me this is the perfect example to show how they are a party of modern Socialists who want to force people to get along with their views. In addition to that, they have blatantly stupid views on sexual equality. They are taking that topic so unscientific and ignore logic while they just appeal to people's feelings and try to make the current situation much worse than it is. I could vomit every time Claudia Roth gets invited to a talkshow that deals with sexual equality. At the moment I don't really like any party in particular. However, I like FDP the most because they are trying to introduce as few regulations as possible. How is enforcing a lower speed limit, which by the way most other countries have done a long time ago(drastically improving road security i.e. in the UK; as well as fuel economy) socialist? I also fail to see what's wrong with cafeterias offering vegetarian meals on a mandatory basis. Forcing them to not serve meat at all is taking it too far, I agree, but in principle I think it's quite a good idea. I'll give you that Claudia Roth is unbearable, though you'll find people as bad as her in every party.
Have you seen German Autobahns? You're driving on a road which goes pretty much straight forward all the time and is so well maintained that you won't be able to find a single hole, or a bump for that matter, on it. When there is little traffic, it makes no sense whatsoever to enforce a speed limit. Additionally, large parts of the autobahn, which are deemed not extremely safe are already regulated with speed restrictions. Not to mention that there are also large parts which are regulated by electronic speed limit signs, which act according to weather and traffic. Pretty much everywhere that a need for a speed limit on the autobahn exists already has it.
Furthermore, statistically autobahns are extremely safe. By far the most traffic occurs on them, while in comparison very few accidents happen. Not to mention that most accidents on the autobahn have little to do with high speed...
Basically, an absolute speed-limit on the autobahn is not neccessary at all. And I'm pretty sure that the greens know it, but just need something to be able to claim that they are pro-environment.
As far as co2 emissions are concerned, street traffic in Germany causes 19% of the total emissions. However, expecting that an absolute speed-limit would reduce them by any noticable margin is unrealistic.
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Good article:
Merkel 3.0: Stasis You Can Believe In
Germans love Angela Merkel, first and foremost because she asks little of them. It is a strategy she will be likely to continue following should she return to the Chancellery for a third term. But it is also one that has blinded Germany to the dangers facing Europe.
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On August 18 2013 10:25 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 09:13 Shiragaku wrote:
I would support The Left, but from what I saw, they seem to be a bunch of closeted Marxist-Leninists who are nostalgic for the DDR. Bleh...I am pretty disappointed in Germany's left-wing parties. It really depends on your viewpoint. The Left has quite a spectrum of voters and members. If you take the conservative viewpoint (some say propaganda) then sure, the Left is a bunch of old neo-Marxists wishing back the old days. If you ask members of the party itself, then they will tell you that their communist wing makes up at most 15% of their ranks and they are all not in leading positions and that none of them want the old system back but that they seek a new democratic socialism instead. Since the wall came down I have heard these claims from conservative commentators: "These guys are mostly nostalgic Stalinist who will die out in a few years anyway, do not pay any attention to them." Well it's 25 years later and this group of voters is still here, in fact, the Left is pretty successful in young age segment making it slowly gaining ground actually.
There is one thing people from countries with two party systems have to understand: Your parties actually get to implement the policies they set in their programs once they win the election, our don't!So before an election, what your parties say they would like to do is actually what will be done afterwards! Here, a 'party program' is pretty much a theoretical exercise. What would you do if you could rule all alone? (In the history of the Federal Republic there has never been a non-collision government.) What happens once the votes are casted is that they negotiate with their coalition partners. Compromises are made and demands are watered down in the name of being part of the government at all. So in reality every party program here is much more outlandish in its demands (because they will most likely never be implemented). But party programs are the perfect area of attack for the opposition. "Look at these weirdos, if they had their way they would actually do this or that. The horror!"And it works every time, just look at the infighting German posters in this thread: 'They would force vegetarianism down our throat.', 'They would implement socialism.', 'They would abolish unions.' All outlandish demands, but sadly taken at face value for most voters. You asked why Merkel has such a high standing in the German population. The answer IMHO comes down to this trait, ridiculing and mobilizing against certain party demands is so much easier, than standing for something. The status quo looks better when contrasted with outlandish visions. Black Gun explained it earlier: Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 04:31 Black Gun wrote:
The general campaign strategy of Merkel is called "asymmetric demobilization" and has already been very successful in her 2009 campaign. She avoids positioning herself on almost any controversial topic and thus robs the political opposition of any chances to attack her and to mobilize their own voters. Because she has done nothing fundamentally wrong and does not stand for anything that infuriates the traditional voters of opposing political parties, the opposition cannot gain momentum for their campaign. To sum it up, she is not governing, she is administrating the status quo.
Ah, I guess I just had bad experience with some members. I know that they have a strong libertarian leftist branch, but the two I talked to were Marxist-Leninists, people who I am more than unimpressed with these days. Also, what happened in 2007 really made me upset that there were leftists in the world who still had some sort of sympathy towards the satellite states.
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On August 18 2013 10:25 lord_nibbler wrote:
You asked why Merkel has such a high standing in the German population. The answer IMHO comes down to this trait, ridiculing and mobilizing against certain party demands is so much easier, than standing for something.
The status quo looks better when contrasted with outlandish visions.
The problem with this, and why it is quite unsatisfying are twofold. One is that large singular events might drive her to decisions which may not be necessary in the long run. My prime example would be the shutdown of the nuclear power plants after the events of Fukushima. This is hurting the economy due to higher energy prices yet no one died through this accident.
The second and more grave imo is that political party programs should (at least in theory) provide a coherent and conclusive vision of what society should strive for. This would include (ofc) a lot of idealistic ideas which would have to be toned down for coalitions. Now in adapting things that are "the favorite of the month" one just has a patchwerk of ideas instead.
This isn't problematic per se, but it becomes a problem if every party does it. This leads to opinion mainstreaming and suppression of debate. If we don't have a choice why should we go voting? Isn't the conflict of ideas why we installed democracy in the first place?
This is also originating in the "party politics" where people tend to get promoted who were good "party soldiers" and got to not alienate any of the major faction in the party.
It is lastly a depressing campaigning when none of the candidates have the ability to inspire people but instead try to convince that they are the best in managing the country. It looks like the defeat of spirit in favor of dull conformity.
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On August 18 2013 09:18 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 09:03 imperator-xy wrote:On August 18 2013 08:38 LaNague wrote:On August 18 2013 07:55 dismiss wrote:On August 18 2013 07:14 Dazed_Spy wrote:On August 18 2013 06:42 dismiss wrote:On August 18 2013 05:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:Are the FDP still polling terribly in Germany? The FDP pulling bad results is just about the best thing that could happen, they have a terrible agenda regarding pretty much every important subject. If you're interested in recent survey results here's a pretty comprehensive list http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm They're the only party I find even remotely tolerable, though far too interventionist and illiberal for my tastes. Still, its Europe, you cant shoot for the moon. You might want to look more into the Green party, they're basically the same thing, except with fewer tax breaks for lawyers, dentists, and a little more crazy as well as an emphasis on environmental protection. the green party is actually the worst when it comes to being illiberal. They are against buying any luxury with money. They want to remove first class in transportation, they would tax "high" income much more, they want to introduce days where you cant eat meat...im sure i forgot many things. Basically, they have a certain ideology and want to force it upon everyone. True, this is why I will never ever vote for them and talk everyone who wants to do so out of it. Seriously, they want to introduce a speed-limit of 130Km/h on the whole Autobahn. To me this is the perfect example to show how they are a party of modern Socialists who want to force people to get along with their views. In addition to that, they have blatantly stupid views on sexual equality. They are taking that topic so unscientific and ignore logic while they just appeal to people's feelings and try to make the current situation much worse than it is. I could vomit every time Claudia Roth gets invited to a talkshow that deals with sexual equality. At the moment I don't really like any party in particular. However, I like FDP the most because they are trying to introduce as few regulations as possible. How is enforcing a lower speed limit, which by the way most other countries have done a long time ago(drastically improving road security i.e. in the UK; as well as fuel economy) socialist?
introducing a general speed limit on the autobahn is to us Germans what removing the right to carry guns is to Americans.
i think this analogy explains it in as few words as possible. 
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On August 18 2013 11:59 Shiragaku wrote:
Also, what happened in 2007 really made me upset that there were leftists in the world who still had some sort of sympathy towards the satellite states. What do you mean? What happened 2007? Who are the 'satellite states'?
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On August 18 2013 09:18 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 09:03 imperator-xy wrote:On August 18 2013 08:38 LaNague wrote:On August 18 2013 07:55 dismiss wrote:On August 18 2013 07:14 Dazed_Spy wrote:On August 18 2013 06:42 dismiss wrote:On August 18 2013 05:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:Are the FDP still polling terribly in Germany? The FDP pulling bad results is just about the best thing that could happen, they have a terrible agenda regarding pretty much every important subject. If you're interested in recent survey results here's a pretty comprehensive list http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm They're the only party I find even remotely tolerable, though far too interventionist and illiberal for my tastes. Still, its Europe, you cant shoot for the moon. You might want to look more into the Green party, they're basically the same thing, except with fewer tax breaks for lawyers, dentists, and a little more crazy as well as an emphasis on environmental protection. the green party is actually the worst when it comes to being illiberal. They are against buying any luxury with money. They want to remove first class in transportation, they would tax "high" income much more, they want to introduce days where you cant eat meat...im sure i forgot many things. Basically, they have a certain ideology and want to force it upon everyone. True, this is why I will never ever vote for them and talk everyone who wants to do so out of it. Seriously, they want to introduce a speed-limit of 130Km/h on the whole Autobahn. To me this is the perfect example to show how they are a party of modern Socialists who want to force people to get along with their views. In addition to that, they have blatantly stupid views on sexual equality. They are taking that topic so unscientific and ignore logic while they just appeal to people's feelings and try to make the current situation much worse than it is. I could vomit every time Claudia Roth gets invited to a talkshow that deals with sexual equality. At the moment I don't really like any party in particular. However, I like FDP the most because they are trying to introduce as few regulations as possible. How is enforcing a lower speed limit, which by the way most other countries have done a long time ago(drastically improving road security i.e. in the UK; as well as fuel economy) socialist? I also fail to see what's wrong with cafeterias offering vegetarian meals on a mandatory basis. Forcing them to not serve meat at all is taking it too far, I agree, but in principle I think it's quite a good idea. I'll give you that Claudia Roth is unbearable, though you'll find people as bad as her in every party.
Germany is really irrational in that regard. For some demographics, their car and the ability to drive it as unresponsibly as they want is their way to express their status and their "freedom". This goes as far as the FDP campaigning on the slogan of "Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger" (roughly: "unlimited driving for free citizens"). The ADAC, a breakdown service and automotist interest group, along with the very strong automotive industry (with VW, Mercedes, BMW, supportive industry such as Bosch being some of the largest of German companies) are some of the most influential lobby groups in Germany. They regularly publish studies that show that an unlimited speed limit doesn't impact safety at all (don't ask me, I know that that defies basic physics; they usually reach their statistics by comparing not well constructed country roads with limited visibility to the well built Autobahn with very good visibility, safety rails etc for 'proof' of this) and campaign against speed controls as if they were the devil's work on earth. Cars are a touchy and very irrational topic in Germany, haha 
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Realy nice write up from the op,and great info in the links about germany in general.
Just love germany.
Dont think the elections will change annything in the political landscape, The afd might make the tresshold of 5% but they will still be a verry small party without to much influence.Am more interested in what happens after the elections.
Will merkel stay with her current euro policy or will she give in to the demands of most of the southern countrys to create eurobunds and such. She cant realy do that now because then she would be at risk of throwing the election but once she has another 4 year mandate she might change.
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Zurich15306 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:03 Daumen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:58 zatic wrote:
LGTB rights: The German supreme court has basically announced they will rule a number of laws and regulations unconstitutional since they discriminate against homosexuals. The resulting discussion has started yet another fundamental change in the conservative block, since the vast majority of Germans support gay rights and gay marriage (which sadly still doesn't exist in Germany), but especially the CSU traditionally opposed liberalization. After the initiative from the court, Merkel gave an outlook that her position might change in this regard, without being specific though.
Unconstitutional? was that really the reason? Sry but im sometimes a stickler for details but the thing is: Homosexuals are not protected by the Constitution, what I mean by that is Art 3, GG (3). Not going to quote but it lists groups that are not to be discriminated against, Homosexuals are NOT in there... its possible to change that, you need 2/3 of the Votes in the Bundestag to change something in the Constitution, they tried that but the Christian Democratic Union has about 1/3 of the votes... so they can just say no singlehandedly...
Unconstitutional, yes. The constitutional court can by definition only act on legislation that violates the constitution. In this particular case the inequality in taxation of homosexuals compared to married couples was ruled to violate Article 3, 1 (Equality before the law):
http://openjur.de/u/632594.html
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On August 18 2013 16:47 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 11:59 Shiragaku wrote:
Also, what happened in 2007 really made me upset that there were leftists in the world who still had some sort of sympathy towards the satellite states. What do you mean? What happened 2007? Who are the 'satellite states'?
The members walked out during the honoring of German unification but maybe this walkout was towards Gauck who is certainly not my favorite guy in the world.
Also, the satellite states were the nations that were part of the Soviet Union. Not under full control, but mostly under their control.
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Hey just to give my thoughts on it:
Why did you only write Katrin Göring-Eckhart as candidate for the greens? Its both her and Jürgen Trittin I think. Or if you want to put it that way, maybe you can say that for the left party, Gregor Gisy is the candidate (not that they will, but if they would choose the chancelor, it would be him).
Also one remark on the greens: In the post its stated that they are not clearly left or right. I think in the current situation that is wrong (at this point I should mention that I am biased towards the liberals), the current agenda is heavy on the left side with enourmus tax raises (it will not only hit "the rich") and some national education plans like veggie day.
To the outcome: Only two realistic scenarios in my opinion: Either we get the same goverment as we have now (depends if the FDP gets enough votes) or we get the same coalition as 2005 (black-red). There is now way red-green gets enough, the SPD will not work with the left since it would go to far for the right wing of the party. Also for this they have the wrong canditate, Steinbrück is far more towards Merkel than towards Gisy.
And by the way for people from the US: what you should consider, what is considered far right in our country is still far on the left side in your country, the CDU has probably more in common with the democrats as with republicans. So you can imagine what far left in Germany can mean... well again I'm of course biased
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Zurich15306 Posts
On August 19 2013 22:36 Brot wrote:
Hey just to give my thoughts on it:
Why did you only write Katrin Göring-Eckhart as candidate for the greens? Its both her and Jürgen Trittin I think. Or if you want to put it that way, maybe you can say that for the left party, Gregor Gisy is the candidate (not that they will, but if they would choose the chancelor, it would be him).
Also one remark on the greens: In the post its stated that they are not clearly left or right. I think in the current situation that is wrong (at this point I should mention that I am biased towards the liberals), the current agenda is heavy on the left side with enourmus tax raises (it will not only hit "the rich") and some national education plans like veggie day.
The OP was written before the 2013 program of the Greens was released. I'll add Trittin. I maintain that the Green party is not decidedly left however. Their current program leans towards it, but we all know how little campaign programs are worth. Overall the Green Party is definitely not hard left, and where they are in power (state of BW) they are running a course so conservative and diagonally against their current federal program that it has actually alienated many from their traditional voter base.
As far as I can tell the Left has not nominated a chancellor candidate.
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On the topic of the Green Party and their position in the political spectrum, I have something to add.
In my view, the Green Party clearly tries to reinforce their image as progressive, libertarian party. They see themselves as some sort of avantgarde of a post-modern lifestyle and society.
However, they actually can be very conservative. For instance, their take on new, potentially important scientific breakthroughs can easily overlap with that of the Union's.
An example would be their absurd view on genetics in farming, medicine and pharmacy. I can understand the stance of the Union, since they actually base their politics on christian ideology and thus genetics does not really fly with them (although I do not share this view). However, the pseuode-progressive Green Party rejects technologies that could reduce the usage of environmentally malign and noxious pesticides, could cure diseases and in general is an important high tech sector.
Then, they also try to impose certain views and values on everyone (forcing a veggie day is just one prime example that comes to mind right now), which is contrary to any libertarian stance. Add to that the discussions I have had with some of their supporters, which sometimes eventually resulted in some really dangerous views (e.g. "since Earth as a whole is more important than humans, it could be necessary to reduce Earth's population..." the hell?!?) I am clearly not rooting for this party...
Of course I could be biased.
EDIT: In general I am aware of the problems that might arise from the usage of genetically altered plants, but this antagonism of this technology that you see in Germany and in the Green Party particularly is absurd.
TLDR: The Green Party tries to look like a progressive party, while in its core there are some very conservative stances and even totalitarean tendencies.
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Any chance of black/green? That would actually be my preferred coalition, basically what the government has been doing, minus some shenanigans of the FDP (though I am thankful that they abolished the military service which had been one of their goals for a long time), plus a heavier focus on renewable Energies. Would be ideal in my opinion, except that we still have the shenanigans of the CSU in it.
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I just read the summary. Basically, every party in Germany is around the center with a light flavor of something (be it conservatism, social policies or environment)?
I suppose it's a natural evolution of a system based around consensus (being proportional), since a party need to be able to agree with at least two others if it want to be able to do more than opposition. But that mean
An example would be their absurd view on genetics in farming, medicine and pharmacy. I can understand the stance of the Union, since they actually base their politics on Christian ideology and thus genetics does not really fly with them (although I do not share this view).
- We have no idea about what dangers genetics could bring, and being careful about it is a very legitimate ecologist stance. Things we were thinking harmless (like fossil fuel) and source of progress were discovered to be real danger to Earth (and as such, to us). Sounds to me like an ecologist party should be careful on matters of technology. As for saying that Earth is more important than humans, it's clearly ridiculous. Earth is worth something for us only because we need it to live. Of course, we need it to be healthy, and it's state is important to monitor (and yes, it's a reality, humanity as a whole would do a lot better if we were less numerous. Of course, suggesting that we correct it by killing people is out of question, but natality control isn't. But anyway, it's not needed in countries like Germany, where the population is declining without intervention).
- In recent times, genetically modified crops have been used to enable MORE herbicides, not less (because your crops are resistant to it, you can flood your field with it, it will only kill unwanted plants. But the dangerous chemicals will still end in the food). Genetics is more dangerous in the abuses of this type it makes possible than in itself.
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I am not saying to fully embrace genetics without caution.
But radical environmentalists - encouraged by politicians from the Green Party - invading testing plantations and destroying the plants that are grown their for scientific research is just absurd. Another example is that the Green Party, once part of the government of Lower Saxony stopped a genetics workshop for students, where these students would learn the basic ideas of genetic alteration hands-on in a laboratory, with the poor excuse that it was "brainwashing" them. Seriously, how can you start a genuine discussion about a scientif topic, when you even dogmatically abolish any form of scientific education for your students? This is just censorship.
Again, I could be biased, but these things have happened and it is no surprise that there are nearly no important tech companies in that field in Germany any more.
And these are examples showing how "ugly" the face of the Green Party can become sometimes.
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very nice post!
just to clarify though:
(...)but without the socialist tradition of the SPD
The SPD has a social-democratic tradition. Not a socialist tradition. With the assistance of the old kaiserliche Armee (royal army) they actually fought the socialists in 1918/19 to gain power in Germany. There is a catchphrase the socialist used at that time:
"Wer hat uns verraten:
Sozialdemokraten"
+ Show Spoiler +"Who betrayed us:
the soical-democrats"
edit:
I hate the FDP, but next to the Pirate Party, they are the only ones who fight for data security. And the FDP actually did good in the past 4 years concerning data security.
Also most physicians I meet vow for the liberals and condemn the SPD, because of their stance on how to manage medical social security (SPD being the one trying to privatize the public funds).
Never really understand how that came to be...
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On August 20 2013 22:07 Restrider wrote:
I am not saying to fully embrace genetics without caution.
But radical environmentalists - encouraged by politicians from the Green Party - invading testing plantations and destroying the plants that are grown their for scientific research is just absurd. Another example is that the Green Party, once part of the government of Lower Saxony stopped a genetics workshop for students, where these students would learn the basic ideas of genetic alteration hands-on in a laboratory, with the poor excuse that it was "brainwashing" them. Seriously, how can you start a genuine discussion about a scientif topic, when you even dogmatically abolish any form of scientific education for your students? This is just censorship.
Again, I could be biased, but these things have happened and it is no surprise that there are nearly no important tech companies in that field in Germany any more.
And these are examples showing how "ugly" the face of the Green Party can become sometimes.
This happens because the other side (genetics companies) is completely closed to the idea of researching the security of their products before putting them to use (because that would hurt immediate profit). I agree that it's not the way to do it, rationally, but the other camp isn't rational either (sadly, because I believe that if we were cautious about it, we could use it well, just not in a 5 years timeframe, but eh, that's too long for modern finances).
On August 20 2013 22:12 Jelissei wrote:very nice post! just to clarify though: The SPD has a social-democratic tradition. Not a socialist tradition. With the assistance of the old kaiserliche Armee (royal army) they actually fought the socialists in 1918/19 to gain power in Germany. There is a catchphrase the socialist used at that time: "Wer hat uns verraten: Sozialdemokraten" + Show Spoiler +"Who betrayed us:
the soical-democrats"
Not surprising, social-democracy is the antithesis of socialism's plans. If you increase the living condition and freedom of the proletariat class bit by bit, you destroy all revolutionary will, because people imagine/see (depending on your side) that things can be improved without it.
But the distinction is a non factor today, since there is no more proletariat in Europe.
I hate the FDP, but next to the Pirate Party, they are the only ones who fight for data security. And the FDP actually did good in the past 4 years concerning data security.
Also most physicians I meet vow for the liberals and condemn the SPD, because of their stance on how to manage medical social security (SPD being the one trying to privatize the public funds).
Never really understand how that came to be...
Aha, this country is so wierd. I can't imagine how this happens without alienating half your voting base with the first decision and the other half with the second, since they are radically opposed in the political spectrum :D
But eh, since you don't need to have more than 50% of people on your side to matter, I suppose you can have a wider range of stances without following the left-right scale.
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On August 20 2013 22:07 Restrider wrote:
I am not saying to fully embrace genetics without caution.
But radical environmentalists - encouraged by politicians from the Green Party - invading testing plantations and destroying the plants that are grown their for scientific research is just absurd. Another example is that the Green Party, once part of the government of Lower Saxony stopped a genetics workshop for students, where these students would learn the basic ideas of genetic alteration hands-on in a laboratory, with the poor excuse that it was "brainwashing" them. Seriously, how can you start a genuine discussion about a scientif topic, when you even dogmatically abolish any form of scientific education for your students? This is just censorship.
Again, I could be biased, but these things have happened and it is no surprise that there are nearly no important tech companies in that field in Germany any more.
And these are examples showing how "ugly" the face of the Green Party can become sometimes.
It's not only that.
They attacked AfD-politicians in some cities for being right-wing extremists (when I read about that all I could think was "wat") so that they couldn't continue their campaigns.
Additionally Renate Künast, one of the leading Grünen-politicians, called it a "Sternstunde der Demokratie" (magic moment of democracy should be a close translation) when green people destroyed a nuclear waste train's rails so that it was delayed.
I don't like them at all, however when things keep developing as they did during the last years, they will soon be the number 2 party in Germany. Another Fukushima might immediately get them ahead of SPD.
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On August 19 2013 01:17 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 04:03 Daumen wrote:On May 03 2013 23:58 zatic wrote:
LGTB rights: The German supreme court has basically announced they will rule a number of laws and regulations unconstitutional since they discriminate against homosexuals. The resulting discussion has started yet another fundamental change in the conservative block, since the vast majority of Germans support gay rights and gay marriage (which sadly still doesn't exist in Germany), but especially the CSU traditionally opposed liberalization. After the initiative from the court, Merkel gave an outlook that her position might change in this regard, without being specific though.
Unconstitutional? was that really the reason? Sry but im sometimes a stickler for details but the thing is: Homosexuals are not protected by the Constitution, what I mean by that is Art 3, GG (3). Not going to quote but it lists groups that are not to be discriminated against, Homosexuals are NOT in there... its possible to change that, you need 2/3 of the Votes in the Bundestag to change something in the Constitution, they tried that but the Christian Democratic Union has about 1/3 of the votes... so they can just say no singlehandedly... Unconstitutional, yes. The constitutional court can by definition only act on legislation that violates the constitution. In this particular case the inequality in taxation of homosexuals compared to married couples was ruled to violate Article 3, 1 (Equality before the law): http://openjur.de/u/632594.html
OH! I remember, it was about taxation yeah. That counts I guess, my bad.
Btw, why so much hate towards "The Left" ?
They gained some popularity with me thanks to Gregor Gysi's speeches.
He seems to understand how our failing Eco system works, doesnt he?
Minimum Wage, stop selling weapons to war waging countries, Stop Versailling Greece.
I know most people would say "its easy to shout from an oppositions point of view" but unless they have a chance to prove themselves they will never be able to prove themselves (wow, weird sentence). Also Gysi calls people on their bullshit in the Bundestag way more than others. :O
Prove me wrong plx, it will influence my Vote.
(this is not supposed to be a "Die Linke, fuck yeah" post, I just want to be more educated about them, ty)
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EPT
