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On May 02 2012 23:24 NarvisoGG wrote:
However, that wasn't intrigues only post in that thread. Why mention the first post and not the rest? Neither mod nor a user should stand aside and not defend themselves. That also shouldn't let anyone, mod or user, incite others.
As DharmaTurtle said, please reconsider.
TB is still temped for "defending" himself that way. Where's the thread asking for his ban to be overturned?
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Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous, of course destinys punishment is way way way harder punishment then what idra got.
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On May 03 2012 00:14 ahtf wrote:
Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous of course this is way way way harder punishment then what idra got.
Different users, different circumstances, different reasons for the bans...
In IdrA's case, HE chose not to stream because he was temped, in an effort to direct hate-mail at Chill. Destiny got his stream de-featured so that the ban would actually affect him negatively, since that's ALL he uses TL for.
Do you honestly not see a slight difference?
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On May 03 2012 00:18 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:14 ahtf wrote:
Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous of course this is way way way harder punishment then what idra got. Different users, different circumstances, different reasons for the bans... In IdrA's case, HE chose not to stream because he was temped, in an effort to direct hate-mail at Chill. Destiny got his stream de-featured so that the ban would actually affect him negatively, since that's ALL he uses TL for. Do you honestly not see a slight difference?
Of course there is a difference. It dosnt change the fact that getting 30 day post ban since like winning the lottery comparing to 30 days removal of stream.
I dont agree with the moderation either way, but if its a bannable offence the timelimit should be different between posting and stream removal. If it was like 10 days stream removal it would hurt destiny and not be such a over punishment in comparision.
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On May 03 2012 00:26 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:18 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:14 ahtf wrote:
Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous of course this is way way way harder punishment then what idra got. Different users, different circumstances, different reasons for the bans... In IdrA's case, HE chose not to stream because he was temped, in an effort to direct hate-mail at Chill. Destiny got his stream de-featured so that the ban would actually affect him negatively, since that's ALL he uses TL for. Do you honestly not see a slight difference? Of course there is a difference. It dosnt change the fact that getting 30 day post ban since like winning the lottery comparing to 30 days removal of stream. I dont agree with the moderation either way, but if its a bannable offence the timelimit should be different between posting and stream removal. If it was like 10 days stream removal it would hurt destiny and not be such a over punishment in comparision.
30 days of posting bans would be a harsh punishment to anyone who is an active member of the community.
30 days of stream ban is a harsh punishment to destiny. IMO it's justified.
consider though if he was featured still on TL right now, judging by the things people have linked from his twitter I don't expect he's pulling any punches on his stream regarding the mods. Perhaps some time apart right now is best for both parties. If Destiny is totally removed from TL for a month, maybe when he comes back he'll be more respectful of the mods than he would be right now. If you are really worried about Destiny, worry about what happens if he pulls a stunt like this again and the mods perm him.
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On May 03 2012 00:26 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:18 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:14 ahtf wrote:
Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous of course this is way way way harder punishment then what idra got. Different users, different circumstances, different reasons for the bans... In IdrA's case, HE chose not to stream because he was temped, in an effort to direct hate-mail at Chill. Destiny got his stream de-featured so that the ban would actually affect him negatively, since that's ALL he uses TL for. Do you honestly not see a slight difference? Of course there is a difference. It dosnt change the fact that getting 30 day post ban since like winning the lottery comparing to 30 days removal of stream. I dont agree with the moderation either way, but if its a bannable offence the timelimit should be different between posting and stream removal. If it was like 10 days stream removal it would hurt destiny and not be such a over punishment in comparision.
Tell me this: If IdrA wasn't streaming, what difference would it make if his stream was featured for the duration of his? Under the circumstances, all they could do was temp him. Destiny, on the other hand, is getting banned from TL, just like IdrA did, they're just making sure that the ban has an actual affect based on his usage of TL.
Also, in no manner, way, shape, or form do they guarantee "fair" moderation. In fact, they explicitly state that it will be anything but fair.
Anyways, even assuming the "crime" should be directly proportional to the punishment, which they never guarantee, they did completely different things, and IdrA received a LONGER ban. Destiny is doing nothing to show any contrition, any respect for the site or it's rules, and is generally not making any attempt to help the situation from his end, why should they extend him any favors, when HE was the one in the wrong to begin with?
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On May 02 2012 18:20 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:59 Mioraka wrote:On May 02 2012 15:58 Plexa wrote:On May 02 2012 14:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Can a mod explain this apparent change in policy, or elaborate on the differences between this case and the IdrA 90 temp?
I'm paraphrasing, but I seem to remember reading that the decision was taken to keep IdrA's stream because "the stream listing is a resource for TL users, and de-listing a pro punishes the users as much as the pro" or something to that effect.
That was my understanding of the policy, so I was surprised when Destiny's stream was removed. Can someone enlighten me on this? Put it this way, you don't piss into the wind. I agree with banning destiny for the reasons stated, in fact, I'm not surprised at all. Given my short history here, most of the time there is a thread criticizing an outspoken player like idra or destiny, they would get angry over the flaming in that massive thread, say something offensive, and get banned. What makes me curious is that why did the mods let that thread stay open for such a long time? It's going to stir up a shitstorm, self righteous people are going to write letters to sponsors after reading it, we all know it will for the first moment we saw that thread. It is only a matter of time until destiny say something offensive when subjected to so many retarded posts ( lets not fool ourselves, there are so many people who got banned for saying stupid shit in that thread). It was left open because we don't want to close all threads by default that involve destiny. We decided to try to moderate it rather than close it, and well, we ended up having to close it anyway. Show nested quote +The real problem is the ban of his stream. Sure, you need a way to punish him; sure, he deserves some kind of punishment. But like kennegit said about idra, it's us, the viewers who are also getting punished. Most of us don't even care to read about the thread, but now we have to go out of our way to find the stream. This action just contradicts what kennegit said on the state of the game about banning idra.
I just feel like its a childish response to a childish act.
Edit: about the idra being a veteran argument, I derive from kennegit's explanation that the reason they didnt ban his stream is not about he's a veteran, but because it will be a punishment to both the streamer and the fans. I don't see any difference in this case.
Of course, this is your house, but this house is getting to a size that it really affects a lot of people if you hangs the house rule on different cases. Destiny isn't a member of the TL community. He doesn't post a lot as motbob explained. He uses TL for his stream almost exclusively. Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed. Moreover, the way he treated staff before and after the ban is completely unacceptable. When you come after the people who facilitate your stream being listed you shouldn't expect to get away with it scott free. In this case, while we appreciate that the viewers are also harmed by this action, we have judged that there is more harm by allowing Destiny to stream while banned and hence our decision.
right now Blizzard is really sensitive to homophobic stuff due to that apology Mike Morhaime had to make.
i think if TL.Net wants to grow along with the rest of eSports into a major sport then your organization has no choice, but to dissociate itself from "shock jock" style casters like Destiny. Other major sports simply do not permit the kind of language Destiny uses in its communications with the general public. Its a land mine waiting to explode. You guys have major sponsors you need to represent properly.
i think TL.Net should explicitly change its policy in this regard if growth in international corporate sponsorship is part of your plan.
but as you've said it is "your house".
maybe you do not want to "grow" from a corporate sponsorship perspective... and if that is the case TL.Net should probably just keep everything status quo.
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30 days of posting, makes you not able to answer some posts. 30 days of removal of streams hurts you financially. YOu cant even compare it kerpal.
Jinglehell: Ok i didnt know that they explicity state it won't be fair. Im usually just a reader on tl so havnt read the rules. Very very strange rule but sure.
well destiny has agreed he went to the same level as the moderator. Why would you show remorse when you enter a thread where people have been discussing you for a couple of thousand post, then you debate in the same way then the rest and get banned?
Ican remember wrongly but did Idra show any remorse btw?
But my hole argument falls if tl moderation dosn´t try to be fair. So I give up. To me it seems that the moderators agreed with those that don´t like destiny and found a reason to ban him since they couldnt ban him for what he says in a ladder game. The way the insulted moderator debate is pretty much proof of that according to me.
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On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you.
Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene.
On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really been a part of TL.
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On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL.
This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term.
TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny.
On May 03 2012 00:48 ahtf wrote:
30 days of posting, makes you not able to answer some posts. 30 days of removal of streams hurts you financially. YOu cant even compare it kerpal.
Jinglehell: Ok i didnt know that they explicity state it won't be fair. Im usually just a reader on tl so havnt read the rules. Very very strange rule but sure.
well destiny has agreed he went to the same level as the moderator. Why would you show remorse when you enter a thread where people have been discussing you for a couple of thousand post, then you debate in the same way then the rest and get banned?
Ican remember wrongly but did Idra show any remorse btw?
But my hole argument falls if tl moderation dosn´t try to be fair. So I give up. To me it seems that the moderators agreed with those that don´t like destiny and found a reason to ban him since they couldnt ban him for what he says in a ladder game. The way the insulted moderator debate is pretty much proof of that according to me.
And if anyone sank to anyone else's level, Intrigue dropped to Destiny's. Not vice versa. Although frankly, it was nowhere NEAR his level. I don't see Intrigue running around screaming about stupid fucking cunts.
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On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL.
So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to...
Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses.
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On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses.
If Destiny wants a website where he can scream racial slurs and mod the discussion about it his way, nobody on TL is blocking his access to Reddit, 4chan, or websites he makes for himself.
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On May 03 2012 00:48 ahtf wrote:
30 days of posting, makes you not able to answer some posts. 30 days of removal of streams hurts you financially. YOu cant even compare it kerpal.
Jinglehell: Ok i didnt know that they explicity state it won't be fair. Im usually just a reader on tl so havnt read the rules. Very very strange rule but sure.
well destiny has agreed he went to the same level as the moderator. Why would you show remorse when you enter a thread where people have been discussing you for a couple of thousand post, then you debate in the same way then the rest and get banned?
Ican remember wrongly but did Idra show any remorse btw?
But my hole argument falls if tl moderation dosn´t try to be fair. So I give up. To me it seems that the moderators agreed with those that don´t like destiny and found a reason to ban him since they couldnt ban him for what he says in a ladder game. The way the insulted moderator debate is pretty much proof of that according to me.
I don't know if you read the thread and everything destiny said in it, perhaps you should go read it again. Destiny admitting to going 'to the same level' as intrigue is just absurd. He went from 0 to calling a mod a faggot in about 2 posts.
as you are a newer user would it be safe to assume you haven't found this thread yet?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865
if the mods had wanted to ban him for what he said in the game, they would have. Or they might have banned him for his comments about racism in the thread, but they only banned him because of his attacks on 'members of the community' ie mods and fellow posters.
you can say that in your opinion the mods are just lieing cause they want to get rid of him.... but he'll be back in a month and TL could have just got rid of him. If they wanted him gone he wouldn't be temp banned.
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On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny.
If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while.
Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate.
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On May 03 2012 01:04 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny. If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while. Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate.
Ok, if my wife has her workplace listed on her facebook, and starts screaming racial slurs there, and her boss tells her it has to stop, and she calls him a stupid fucking cunt, will she still have a job?
Debate and insults are two different things. And intrigue's first post was an effort to get people in the thread to go about voicing their complaints more rationally, while saying he wasn't a fan of what Destiny was doing. Destiny started insulting him for it, along with other people. At that point, TL's right to moderate their site comes into play. They added the de-feature to make sure it had an actual effect on him. Also their prerogative.
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On May 03 2012 01:04 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny. If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while. Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate.
A mod already posted about why it was kept open, they said that they'd prefer to moderate posters rather than topics. So the thread is open, because it's fine to talk about how we feel about destiny using racial slurs on the ladder, but to tell people they're 'being cry-babies' (for example) in that thread is below the standard of posting we try to maintain here. It's fine to talk about racism, but not ok to make racist attacks.
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On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses.
Do I seriously need to rewrite my post in point form for you?
1. Idra has been a part of TL for years and years. He has been a big part of the foreign Starcraft scene for a very long time. He has contributed a lot to the community all these years despite his shortcomings.
2. Destiny has not been a part of TL. He doesn't contribute to TL. He has been a part of the SC2 scene for a very short time in comparison. Emphasis on the part that Destiny really has never been a part of TL.
3. Idra has been a prominent figure of foreign Starcraft for years and years.
4. Destinys relevance is miniscule.
Idra's significance to the foreign professional scene was reason enough to keep his stream up simply because of his relevance. You really can't say the same for Destiny.
And if you seriously think that there is no difference to calling out someone for being a foul person to calling someone a nigger or a gook for no reason, then there really isn't anything to say to you anymore. When Destiny calls random people niggers and gooks online then he deserves to be called out for it. He simply is and has been a foul person. Don't be so absurd as to think that pointing out that Destiny's conduct is unpleasing is in any way equivalent to having a foul manners. No one deserves to be called racial slurs randomly by an asshole while playing a game. But if you are that asshole then you fully deserve to be called out on it.
I'm sorry, but no one cares if you have to support a family if the method you're doing that by involves you being a very unpleasant person.
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On May 03 2012 01:09 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 01:04 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny. If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while. Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate. Ok, if my wife has her workplace listed on her facebook, and starts screaming racial slurs there, and her boss tells her it has to stop, and she calls him a stupid fucking cunt, will she still have a job? Debate and insults are two different things. And intrigue's first post was an effort to get people in the thread to go about voicing their complaints more rationally, while saying he wasn't a fan of what Destiny was doing. Destiny started insulting him for it, along with other people. At that point, TL's right to moderate their site comes into play. They added the de-feature to make sure it had an actual effect on him. Also their prerogative.
The first post i found between intrigue and destiny is intrigue calling everyone who thinks like destiny for an idiot. If it aint the first one please citate it
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On May 03 2012 01:17 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses. Do I seriously need to rewrite my post in point form for you? 1. Idra has been a part of TL for years and years. He has been a big part of the foreign Starcraft scene for a very long time. He has contributed a lot to the community all these years despite his shortcomings. 2. Destiny has not been a part of TL. He doesn't contribute to TL. He has been a part of the SC2 scene for a very short time in comparison. Emphasis on the part that Destiny really has never been a part of TL. 3. Idra has been a prominent figure of foreign Starcraft for years and years. 4. Destinys relevance is miniscule. Idra's significance to the foreign professional scene was reason enough to keep his stream up simply because of his relevance. You really can't say the same for Destiny. And if you seriously think that there is no difference to calling out someone for being a foul person to calling someone a nigger or a gook for no reason, then there really isn't anything to say to you anymore. When Destiny calls random people niggers and gooks online then he deserves to be called out for it. He simply is and has been a foul person. Don't be so absurd as to think that pointing out that Destiny's conduct is unpleasing is in any way equivalent to having a foul manners. No one deserves to be called racial slurs randomly by an asshole while playing a game. But if you are that asshole then you fully deserve to be called out on it. I'm sorry, but no one cares if you have to support a family if the method you're doing that by involves you being a very unpleasant person.
Just because every internet discussion has to do this, (I'm pretty sure it's a law somewhere), there were plenty of Nazis that had families to support. They were still doing foul things.
No, I'm not comparing Destiny to the Nazis. I'm just reducing to the most absurd level to demonstrate a logical fallacy.
Destiny does shit a lot of people don't like. People call him on it. Destiny turns the discussion into a combination of rationalization and insults, in a way that's against the rules of the site. Destiny gets banned. Seems simple to me.
On May 03 2012 01:21 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 01:09 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 01:04 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny. If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while. Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate. Ok, if my wife has her workplace listed on her facebook, and starts screaming racial slurs there, and her boss tells her it has to stop, and she calls him a stupid fucking cunt, will she still have a job? Debate and insults are two different things. And intrigue's first post was an effort to get people in the thread to go about voicing their complaints more rationally, while saying he wasn't a fan of what Destiny was doing. Destiny started insulting him for it, along with other people. At that point, TL's right to moderate their site comes into play. They added the de-feature to make sure it had an actual effect on him. Also their prerogative. The first post i found between intrigue and destiny is intrigue calling everyone who thinks like destiny for an idiot. If it aint the first one please citate it
while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions?
Cited. That's not calling everyone who things like Destiny an idiot. It's saying a certain behavior is dumb. That's a HUGE distinction.
Then, intrigue gives a suggestion of a reasonable, professional way to handle the situation.
Don't forget the part where intrigue expresses disappointment in the mentality of Destiny's detractors too.
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On May 03 2012 01:17 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses. Do I seriously need to rewrite my post in point form for you? 1. Idra has been a part of TL for years and years. He has been a big part of the foreign Starcraft scene for a very long time. He has contributed a lot to the community all these years despite his shortcomings. 2. Destiny has not been a part of TL. He doesn't contribute to TL. He has been a part of the SC2 scene for a very short time in comparison. Emphasis on the part that Destiny really has never been a part of TL. 3. Idra has been a prominent figure of foreign Starcraft for years and years. 4. Destinys relevance is miniscule. Idra's significance to the foreign professional scene was reason enough to keep his stream up simply because of his relevance. You really can't say the same for Destiny. And if you seriously think that there is no difference to calling out someone for being a foul person to calling someone a nigger or a gook for no reason, then there really isn't anything to say to you anymore. When Destiny calls random people niggers and gooks online then he deserves to be called out for it. He simply is and has been a foul person. Don't be so absurd as to think that pointing out that Destiny's conduct is unpleasing is in any way equivalent to having a foul manners. No one deserves to be called racial slurs randomly by an asshole while playing a game. But if you are that asshole then you fully deserve to be called out on it. I'm sorry, but no one cares if you have to support a family if the method you're doing that by involves you being a very unpleasant person.
It seems like i understood everything the first time. Its ok to do shit if you are a pro..
Second part calling a random person racial slurs is for me as insulting as anyone calling me a "foul person". Since racial slurs against someone who clearly ain´t meant as anything racist is to me as insulting as any other insult.
Insults is always low, but I don't see the reason why I should take a random racial slur toward me worse then someone calling me a moron or foul person etc. I would actually rank moron or foul person as worse since they seem more adressed to me as a person.
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