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In Light Of The Destiny Situation: Id like to bring up some points that I've been contemplating creating a thread about. I may not be following the proper areas of notification but since I'm bring up multiple subjects at one, this will have to do. Ban/Delete/Do w/e you want if I am breaking rules. This will encompass multiple things, namely me imploring the community to stop with the pitchforks and balance complaint, as well as Mod's actions in Destiny Thread and in generally last few months. I joined in the beat of SC2 and TL back then was about 10x better than today.
A. Moderators:
The Favoritism really needs to stop. A forum should not have any kind of favoritism. If a Blue Poster says something worthy of being banned, he should be banned. He should not be allowed free-bees. The first major thing that ever pissed me off was me getting temp banned for saying something (it was against the forum rules) and then Jinro and two other terran players flaming me/breaking forum rules/balance complaining all in 1 post without a single warning given out. The destiny thread is a perfect example of this: I posted how upset I was with the pitchfork mentality and the degradation of the thread stating it should be closed, i get warned. The dude who said that he wished destiny would die, no action taken from any mod. Out of all the people who said the thread should be closed near where i posted, half of us were banned if that. We all posted the same thing and were on the same page even at times. Come on guys. I mean, I posted a 2-3 paragraph post and get banned when 2 people under me said the same thing in less/more abrasive terms? Id rather be pissed at you guys for being 'too good' at moderating or too strict then the bullshit that is happening currently. Less Favoritism, More Consistency.
If Moderators banned a Terran every time he brought up how impossible it was to hold a Protoss 6 gate, or how broken the game was late game in Protoss favor. Or banned that Protoss player bitching about infestor/brood. Or banned that Zerg for his '2 base Protoss is OP' complaints. Do that for a month, the strategy forums will become usefull again. Im not saying we can't discuss 'Beating 7 gate Blink with Obs and +2', just people get away with just saying things like "lets all face it, protoss lategame is op", and that's a sentence that is generally found on the first page of a GSL thread, without any action taken. People shouldn't get away with saying that. Currently Moderators ignore it, skip over it, and seemingly implore imbalance themselves at times.
Banning Destiny. This made me laugh when I saw that. Collectively as a Group you banned him when he himself didn't break a single rule in that thread. You stated he 'repeated' he wouldn't stop as the rule. His language was as bad as the other peoples in that thread, and yes he repeated himself. He was defending himself and had to repeat the same thing to multiple differnet people and you expect him to sit back and take it while you let a thread stay open that was dedicated to everybody saying 'fuck destiny'. He defied you by saying he wouldn't stop, so why not remove his stream? His forum account didn't break any rules. Or do you make up rules on the spot since you want to punish him but removing the site (where he is breaking your 'rules') would stop people from coming to TL? Unless he broke a forum rule in the thread I don't get banning him. This just seems like TL is trying to make it seem like they are 'doing something' so make the community happy, a saving face move. Or he just made you unhappy i guess.
B. Community
Yes. This is actually to address the community at large, for the mistakes that 'You All Make, I Make, He Makes, and She Makes'. We as a community lately have been sucking. Very much. First, we need to stop our bashing. Our Caster Bashing, Our Player Bashing, Our Tourney Bashing, etc. We have just become one giant lynch mob, and I don't get it. We are going out of our way to potentially cause major issues to people's life. We are taking the 'rage moments' when a person loses and trying to use that to justify ruining a persons career, calling them rasicst, among other things. Some people rage overly bad, especially when they are alone in front of a computer. Just because they get mad, and BM you, possibly even using racist words. Doesn't make them a BM Racist in real life. And doesn't mean they should be lynched. Orb as an example, already had a reputation of being a great caster, and was up and coming, and we knew he was good at what he did and didn't BM/Racist/Do bad shit during his casts. Yet we chose randomly to lynch him for his ladder rage and set him back in his career by many months id imagine. Now Destiny is the same way, in the moment of the loss, he rages, and the pitchforks are brought out. I'm not saying either Orb or Destiny are in the right, but they shouldn't be judged based off Rage at the end of a match. It doesn't make them BM, and doesn't make them Racist.
Now apart from us needing to slow down on how fast were grabbing the pitchforks. We also need to take note of the best way to go about 'retribution' for want of a better word. In both of the situations I'm using as examples so far, Orb and Destiny, fans have emailed the sponsors. This is not a correct step, I understand the reasoning behind why you would, but this can 'hurt esports' in the long run. The reason I say this is because going to the Sponsors can cause 2 issues: Sponsors will lose interest in SC2 if they receive thousands of letters every time a player makes a mistake. Sponsors getting angry causes teams to over punish to make the sponsor happy. We also need to realize that these players don't represent their team/sponsor 24/7. They are representing themselves at times on occasion, it may not be often, but it does happen. They are allowed to be human. Just because I work a salary job at an IT place, doesn't mean my company is gonna get angry that i went drinking on my day off and had a 1 night stand. Any issues with a player/caster associated with a Team, should always be taken up with the Team first, if the Team cannot or will not fix the situation (sometimes its not a situation either), then go to the Sponsors. Sponsors should be last imo.
Last, but not least. Balance. We can help the Mods out here guys. Balance is something we know should only be discussed in certain places. I get as mad at Marauders as the next guy, but I don't make a thread about it every time I lose. We don't even seem to be trying anymore. I know it doesn't help that the 'forums' as a whole seems to swing back and forth between whats considered op and up. But we could stop fishing for posts with all the 1 liner balance posts that crop up, especially under TL Articles.
These are just a few things I really felt needed throwing out there. I honestly don't know if there's a discussion to be had about the points Ive brought up. I just feel that the points Ive mentioned could really really help make the forums/community as whole function better.
Or you may all disagree with me and hate me for typing all this up and delete this and ban me. If you do, that's fine, no hard feelings. I just visit TL less than i visit Reddit now, and that scares me, and I want it to change. I want to come here for more than just head articles/streams. I haven't been as dedicated to a game before in my whole life and TL is really what started that and what kept the passion alive for me.
~Shane
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This thread isnt meant for this forum. The mods are fair and the community is fine. Ignore posts you don't like and you'll be fine.
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The forum does give preference to veterans over new-comers. While it may not be egalitarian, it is not revolutionary either: Many institutions in the world use a similar hierarchy and system. It is simply to reward those who have been a part of the forums and have contributed for many years over a new member whose intentions towards the forum may not as well be known.
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There is an entire, over 1000 page thread for this, and yet you post it here.
You don't like the rules?
Make your own website and mod it how you want.
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Website feedback is located at the bottom left part of the site.
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United States22154 Posts
moved to website feedback
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I essentially agree, but TL can run its community how it wants.
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United States5162 Posts
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you.
That says everything that needs to be said about your first point.
And I agree with your second point.
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Sorry I thought I had clicked on Website Feedback.
For people saying the post is useless, that's what website feedback is for correct? i just wanted the 'community' to the see part sent for it as well and didn't want to make more than one thread
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On May 02 2012 10:40 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you. That says everything that needs to be said about your first point. And I agree with your second point.
All im making is a suggestion, which is what they state in that post. I agree they are the 'baus' of the site. Just trying to give some feedback is all.
I joined/started lurking on TL back in Beta Patch 13. I miss the old days
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I agree Completely with this, and I imagine that most newer posters have this same experience. However since Team-liquid is such a great sight and the moderators do such a great job otherwise this is the way it will have to be. unless someone makes another sight just as good and imposes different moderators it is unlikely to happen, and I am pretty much okay with that.
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Destiny called a moderator a faggot. I am pretty confident that's against the rules! Why do you think it isn't?
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On May 02 2012 10:46 huameng wrote:
Destiny called a moderator a faggot. I am pretty confident that's against the rules! Why do you think it isn't?
Orb and Destiny were mentioned just as examples for their recentness. I also tried to read every post Destiny made in that thread, and at least from my conclusion, he used the same language used against him back at his attackers. If he did call a mod a faggot by all means ban him, but say 'were banning you for calling a mod a faggot'. Which is what they didn't do.
All in all i dont want this to be about Destiny. I will erase that whole paragraph if that's what people think this is about. I wanted this to be a general complaint about certain things mods and we as a community were making.
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United States8476 Posts
I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators.
1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie.
See:6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on.
I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts.
- A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported.
2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out.
3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865
These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately.
And last but not least:
THIS IS OUR HOUSE
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On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:
THIS IS OUR HOUSE
That's really the only thing I was going to mention. TeamLiquid isn't public property.
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On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators. 1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie. See: Show nested quote +6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on. I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts. - A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported. 2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out. 3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately. And last but not least: THIS IS OUR HOUSE
interesting what you say about only responding to reports, would it be helpful then for us (those of us with the report buttons) to report posts similar to those that have been banned?
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On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators. 1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie. See: Show nested quote +6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on. I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts. - A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported. 2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out. 3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately. And last but not least: THIS IS OUR HOUSE
Thank You for the detailed response. 1 and 2 make perfect sense. I just meant that sometimes, seeing a blue poster say the exact same thing as the person right above, and only 1 getting banned, hurts our feelings. I understand the report function may cause alot of this though. That initially escaped my mind. So that covers 1 and 2's qualms.
I'll be honest, the destiny one was just thrown in as an afterthought (which is why above i mentioned deleting it). It in its own didn't' have an impact on the two paragraphs above it, was merely added due to my confusion. To the 'This is our House' motto: Tis a great motto, just remember too much disparity can cause issues, no new people will join if it becomes so noticeable that being new has downfalls and older people have perks. This also leads to people fishing count posts i find.
I appreciate your responses. They are as good as your protoss guides if I remember correctly 
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is awesome32269 Posts
On May 02 2012 11:27 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators. 1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie. See: 6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on. I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts. - A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported. 2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out. 3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately. And last but not least: THIS IS OUR HOUSE Thank You for the detailed response. 1 and 2 make perfect sense. I just meant that sometimes, seeing a blue poster say the exact same thing as the person right above, and only 1 getting banned, hurts our feelings. I understand the report function may cause alot of this though. That initially escaped my mind. So that covers 1 and 2's qualms. I'll be honest, the destiny one was just thrown in as an afterthought (which is why above i mentioned deleting it). It in its own didn't' have an impact on the two paragraphs above it, was merely added due to my confusion. To the 'This is our House' motto: Tis a great motto, just remember too much disparity can cause issues, no new people will join if it becomes so noticeable that being new has downfalls and older people have perks. This also leads to people fishing count posts i find. I appreciate your responses. They are as good as your protoss guides if I remember correctly
I'm sure Monk will answer with his own thoughts, but in case you are interested, here are mine:
Contributions, publicity and history matter.
Contributions, because we want to keep good and useful members with us, since that's how this site came to be, with user contributions. All of the staff started as regular users contributing in some way or another, so we sure as hell are not going to put someone who contributes and helps us for some time at the same level as someone who just comes, demands and/or doesn't follow the rules.
Public figures are hard to manage. For one, they are, well, public. Meaning you know them, know how they look, what they do, etc. We understand when some of them snap sometimes since sometimes they get gang banged by a lot of 1 post users, or people who don't even take the time to read a thread and just want to stir shit up.
History matters as well. Sometimes you see someone get a warned and someone get banned for the same offense. I always try to look at user's mod notes/warns/bans and recent post history when taking action against someone. I don't think I have to explain this one.
Also try not to become a "ban martyr" when typing these kind of threads. It kind of leaves us against the ropes and leave little course of action, as said by Mani here:
On February 03 2011 15:04 Manifesto7 wrote:
Martyrs are simply people who force the moderators hand. If you say "I will get banned for this..." and you don't get banned, you set a precedent. If you do get banned, you are 'showing' how bad the moderation is and going down a hero.
It is a simple device used by simple people.
Also, this post by Hot_Bid may address your post somehow:
On February 03 2011 22:00 Hot_Bid wrote:
I do not think our system creates martyrs. There are plenty of ways to talk about moderation -- just make a Website Feedback thread or PM the Mod who banned you. We almost never ban for making a thread in Website Feedback, even when it's highly critical and even if we believe its unreasonable. So many times people complain about unfair moderation, and I respond "please make a Website Feedback thread and we can discuss it with everyone" and they end up not making it. Why? Because in most situations, the banned user knows who is in the wrong. They know they would look ridiculous when judged by a "neutral" third party.
There is a difference between a Mod incorrectly taking action and a user disagreeing with general site policy. In that case, the Mod isn't wrong to ban you -- you just disagree with how we moderate overall. There are times when bans are reversed or when a Mod misinterprets a post and then apologizes for it after. This doesn't happen often, but it's not insignificant either. However, the vast majority of the time, ban-worthy posts are interpreted 100% correctly.
It's not about not being able to respond -- plenty of banned users respond via PM. It's about them just disagreeing with how TL is run. And that discussion should be public and in a thread like what you're doing here, not in a PM to individual Mods.
You won't get banned for voicing your opinion in a respectful way, extreme cases aside (like justifying racism).
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Canada11303 Posts
NrGmonk has covered this pretty good. I know when logged in, the thread was already 100 pages long and accumulating fast. At that point, you can pretty much only rely on the Report feature and deal with with new posts.
In addition, Destiny definitely benefits from the whole favourtism. Were it some random poster that called a mod or another poster a faggot, I'm pretty sure I'd auto temp ban. But a lone banling isn't going to pull the trigger on a high profile member of the community hence the need for group consensus.
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As I don't think it deseves a thread to ask a question, but this thread seem to be on the topic: Will destiny's stream be unlisted for the duration of his ban, and if so, what is the justification for this, in contrast to idra's ban where his stream was not delisted?
I don't know if this is the right place to ask this question, and I am not assuming that his stream has been unlisted-he might not have listed himself online on TL today as damage control, ect.
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United States8476 Posts
His stream won't be listed for the duration of the ban.
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On May 02 2012 12:52 SovietHammer wrote:
I don't know if this is the right place to ask this question, and I am not assuming that his stream has been unlisted-he might not have listed himself online on TL today as damage control, ect.
On May 02 2012 13:19 NrGmonk wrote:
His stream won't be listed for the duration of the ban.
Obviously I am not a mod, so take my answer with a grain of salt (and any mod is free to correct me), but I would image Destiny's little outburst on twitter after his ban might be the reason they decided to de-list the stream. Its entirely possible they had decided to take that action upfront to send a "stronger" message, but that is my guess.
Edit - this does not appear to be correct given mod statements in a different thread.
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United States4053 Posts
On May 02 2012 11:20 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators. 1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie. See: 6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on. I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts. - A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported. 2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out. 3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately. And last but not least: THIS IS OUR HOUSE interesting what you say about only responding to reports, would it be helpful then for us (those of us with the report buttons) to report posts similar to those that have been banned?
It'd be better for the forum, but during times of overload that might not be good for the mods' souls.
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Can a mod explain this apparent change in policy, or elaborate on the differences between this case and the IdrA 90 temp?
I'm paraphrasing, but I seem to remember reading that the decision was taken to keep IdrA's stream because "the stream listing is a resource for TL users, and de-listing a pro punishes the users as much as the pro" or something to that effect.
That was my understanding of the policy, so I was surprised when Destiny's stream was removed. Can someone enlighten me on this?
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Maybe it has to do with what they are punishing? In idra's case it was his low quality posting and then taking to twitter to harass a mod. In Destiny's case it appears to not only be about some low quality posting but also his content in general. It would make some sense therefor that while both idra and Destiny are pro players their punishments are different.
Edit - That all said a better place for this question is the Automated Ban List thread ("ABL"), where its more on-topic to discuss bans: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95875
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Canada11303 Posts
Actually ABL is not the best place to question moderation actions. Website feedback is exactly where Boiler should ask his questions. ABL used to be (before it turned into a massive derail thread) a place to laugh at the general follies of people being banned.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 02 2012 14:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Can a mod explain this apparent change in policy, or elaborate on the differences between this case and the IdrA 90 temp?
I'm paraphrasing, but I seem to remember reading that the decision was taken to keep IdrA's stream because "the stream listing is a resource for TL users, and de-listing a pro punishes the users as much as the pro" or something to that effect.
That was my understanding of the policy, so I was surprised when Destiny's stream was removed. Can someone enlighten me on this?
Put it this way, you don't piss into the wind.
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On May 02 2012 15:58 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 14:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Can a mod explain this apparent change in policy, or elaborate on the differences between this case and the IdrA 90 temp?
I'm paraphrasing, but I seem to remember reading that the decision was taken to keep IdrA's stream because "the stream listing is a resource for TL users, and de-listing a pro punishes the users as much as the pro" or something to that effect.
That was my understanding of the policy, so I was surprised when Destiny's stream was removed. Can someone enlighten me on this? Put it this way, you don't piss into the wind.
Don't take that the wrong way, it was more genuine curiosity than criticism.
BTW, for those interested, motbob answered it pretty conclusively in the ABL thread. Short version, IdrA was a longtime TL community member, Destiny really is not (more of a Redditor, I believe). So IdrA gets/got more leeway, and also banning Destiny wasn't really much of a response given how inactive he generally is on here.
EDIT:
I also really appreciate the accessibility, accountability and really just general quality of the staff here. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the community they've built and the job they do maintaining it.
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On May 02 2012 15:58 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 14:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Can a mod explain this apparent change in policy, or elaborate on the differences between this case and the IdrA 90 temp?
I'm paraphrasing, but I seem to remember reading that the decision was taken to keep IdrA's stream because "the stream listing is a resource for TL users, and de-listing a pro punishes the users as much as the pro" or something to that effect.
That was my understanding of the policy, so I was surprised when Destiny's stream was removed. Can someone enlighten me on this? Put it this way, you don't piss into the wind.
I agree with banning destiny for the reasons stated, in fact, I'm not surprised at all. Given my short history here, most of the time there is a thread criticizing an outspoken player like idra or destiny, they would get angry over the flaming in that massive thread, say something offensive, and get banned.
What makes me curious is that why did the mods let that thread stay open for such a long time? It's going to stir up a shitstorm, self righteous people are going to write letters to sponsors after reading it, we all know it will for the first moment we saw that thread. It is only a matter of time until destiny say something offensive when subjected to so many retarded posts ( lets not fool ourselves, there are so many people who got banned for saying stupid shit in that thread).
The real problem is the ban of his stream. Sure, you need a way to punish him; sure, he deserves some kind of punishment. But like kennegit said about idra, it's us, the viewers who are also getting punished. Most of us don't even care to read about the thread, but now we have to go out of our way to find the stream. This action just contradicts what kennegit said on the state of the game about banning idra.
I just feel like its a childish response to a childish act.
Edit: about the idra being a veteran argument, I derive from kennegit's explanation that the reason they didnt ban his stream is not about he's a veteran, but because it will be a punishment to both the streamer and the fans. I don't see any difference in this case.
Of course, this is your house, but this house is getting to a size that it really affects a lot of people if you hangs the house rule on different cases.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 02 2012 16:59 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 15:58 Plexa wrote:On May 02 2012 14:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Can a mod explain this apparent change in policy, or elaborate on the differences between this case and the IdrA 90 temp?
I'm paraphrasing, but I seem to remember reading that the decision was taken to keep IdrA's stream because "the stream listing is a resource for TL users, and de-listing a pro punishes the users as much as the pro" or something to that effect.
That was my understanding of the policy, so I was surprised when Destiny's stream was removed. Can someone enlighten me on this? Put it this way, you don't piss into the wind. I agree with banning destiny for the reasons stated, in fact, I'm not surprised at all. Given my short history here, most of the time there is a thread criticizing an outspoken player like idra or destiny, they would get angry over the flaming in that massive thread, say something offensive, and get banned. What makes me curious is that why did the mods let that thread stay open for such a long time? It's going to stir up a shitstorm, self righteous people are going to write letters to sponsors after reading it, we all know it will for the first moment we saw that thread. It is only a matter of time until destiny say something offensive when subjected to so many retarded posts ( lets not fool ourselves, there are so many people who got banned for saying stupid shit in that thread). It was left open because we don't want to close all threads by default that involve destiny. We decided to try to moderate it rather than close it, and well, we ended up having to close it anyway.
The real problem is the ban of his stream. Sure, you need a way to punish him; sure, he deserves some kind of punishment. But like kennegit said about idra, it's us, the viewers who are also getting punished. Most of us don't even care to read about the thread, but now we have to go out of our way to find the stream. This action just contradicts what kennegit said on the state of the game about banning idra.
I just feel like its a childish response to a childish act.
Edit: about the idra being a veteran argument, I derive from kennegit's explanation that the reason they didnt ban his stream is not about he's a veteran, but because it will be a punishment to both the streamer and the fans. I don't see any difference in this case.
Of course, this is your house, but this house is getting to a size that it really affects a lot of people if you hangs the house rule on different cases. Destiny isn't a member of the TL community. He doesn't post a lot as motbob explained. He uses TL for his stream almost exclusively. Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed. Moreover, the way he treated staff before and after the ban is completely unacceptable. When you come after the people who facilitate your stream being listed you shouldn't expect to get away with it scott free. In this case, while we appreciate that the viewers are also harmed by this action, we have judged that there is more harm by allowing Destiny to stream while banned and hence our decision.
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Canada11303 Posts
As to leaving the topic open. I know TL has this reputation of nazi mods, but in general, we would prefer to ban people not topics. Very few topics are banned outright- religion debates being a notable exception. Sometimes a topic becomes too hot that it needs to be locked for awhile (idra's ban). And eventually a thread runs it's course and is closed which was the case with the Destiny thread.
But yes, we pretty much knew it would bring out a lot of crummy posters, but we felt it was better to handle it through the banlings and mods.
Edit.
Plexa already answered.
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Zurich15315 Posts
It's really a shame that you repeatedly have to say something along the lines of "... if you want ban me for this ..."
Why on earth would anyone ban you for this thread?
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I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line.
That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far.
If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason:
Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441
It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on.
Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served.
But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous.
Please reconsider. Thank you.
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On May 02 2012 01:53 intrigue wrote:
yes, you are the sole human being who sees through the veil of bullshit. rise above it and make your stand here buddy boy, it's really admirable! this is the thread where you define yourself! r o f l
On May 02 2012 01:55 intrigue wrote:
hey, i'm a starcraft player, i understand all the social issues in the world. i think completely expressing myself however i want is fine because people who are offended are mindless pussies.l
May 02 2012 02:00 intrigue wrote:
guys, i'd like to let you know that i've suffered a bit in my life. that means i know what the world is like. i also never make mistakes, because, as i've mentioned, i've been through some hardship. this qualifies me to make sweeping social critiques that spans way beyond any of our lifetimes. fuck the empty media!
I'll be honest and state that despite her valid criticism, this type of response was pretty still petty. I'm okay with leniency/favoritism, but this was very disappointing to read from a staff member.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 02 2012 21:56 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:53 intrigue wrote:
yes, you are the sole human being who sees through the veil of bullshit. rise above it and make your stand here buddy boy, it's really admirable! this is the thread where you define yourself! r o f l Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:55 intrigue wrote:
hey, i'm a starcraft player, i understand all the social issues in the world. i think completely expressing myself however i want is fine because people who are offended are mindless pussies.l Show nested quote +May 02 2012 02:00 intrigue wrote:
guys, i'd like to let you know that i've suffered a bit in my life. that means i know what the world is like. i also never make mistakes, because, as i've mentioned, i've been through some hardship. this qualifies me to make sweeping social critiques that spans way beyond any of our lifetimes. fuck the empty media! I'll be honest and state that despite her valid criticism, this type of response was pretty still petty. I'm okay with leniency/favoritism, but this was very disappointing to read from a staff member. If this were the whole story, I would agree with you. However I'm quite happy for a staff member to defend him/herself in this manner if necessary. Intrigues first comment was
On May 02 2012 01:47 intrigue wrote:
while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions? To which Destiny replied:On May 02 2012 01:50 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:47 intrigue wrote:
while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every situation is one where they as a unique, proud individual is being threatened, when even a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community, then to warden. at least nobody will be writing your sponsors, you know.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? Sorry, "PR"? You want to talk about respect? How about treating a community of people like humans, and not a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots waiting for you to appease them with hollow, empty, meaningless phrases that everyone finds kosher? You may not like what I have to say, but I will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. I'm tired of public figures that stand for nothing, and instead merely try to act as a mirror, reflecting back onto other people whatever it is they want to see. In essence, spitting in the face of someone trying to offer him some (good) advice - and a mod at that.
Moving on...
On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you.
We are currently discussing this internally. For the time being, however, assume that Destiny will not be featured while banned.
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At the end of the day, as a user, you have three responses available to moderation action.
1: Make an effort to fix your shit.
2: Continue doing the same shit.
3: Go elsewhere.
Now, here's the thing. Option one is NOT an admission of error. It's merely making a rational decision to adjust the way you post so that you don't cause friction. I've been working on this one myself lately.
Option two, well, it just leads to continued moderation.
Option three... it's a shortcut to the end result of option two. As it turns out, there's not a whole lot of better sites out there. I've taken a long break because I was annoyed with moderation, and I still ended up back here, and I ended up back here TRYING TO FIX MY POSTING. Why? Because this site is what it is for exactly one reason. The moderation. Even when, and I do mean when you have problems with the moderation, it's still handy.
The fact is, though, if people are going to go elsewhere, they don't have much room to complain about not getting any benefits here. TL isn't being paid to feature Destiny's stream. There isn't a contract, there's no obligation. They have a right to de-feature him, and bear in mind that when they do, they're potentially hurting their own page views per day to uphold the standards of their website.
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However, that wasn't intrigues only post in that thread. Why mention the first post and not the rest? Neither mod nor a user should stand aside and not defend themselves. That also shouldn't let anyone, mod or user, incite others.
As DharmaTurtle said, please reconsider.
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On May 02 2012 23:24 NarvisoGG wrote:
However, that wasn't intrigues only post in that thread. Why mention the first post and not the rest? Neither mod nor a user should stand aside and not defend themselves. That also shouldn't let anyone, mod or user, incite others.
As DharmaTurtle said, please reconsider.
TB is still temped for "defending" himself that way. Where's the thread asking for his ban to be overturned?
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Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous, of course destinys punishment is way way way harder punishment then what idra got.
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On May 03 2012 00:14 ahtf wrote:
Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous of course this is way way way harder punishment then what idra got.
Different users, different circumstances, different reasons for the bans...
In IdrA's case, HE chose not to stream because he was temped, in an effort to direct hate-mail at Chill. Destiny got his stream de-featured so that the ban would actually affect him negatively, since that's ALL he uses TL for.
Do you honestly not see a slight difference?
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On May 03 2012 00:18 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:14 ahtf wrote:
Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous of course this is way way way harder punishment then what idra got. Different users, different circumstances, different reasons for the bans... In IdrA's case, HE chose not to stream because he was temped, in an effort to direct hate-mail at Chill. Destiny got his stream de-featured so that the ban would actually affect him negatively, since that's ALL he uses TL for. Do you honestly not see a slight difference?
Of course there is a difference. It dosnt change the fact that getting 30 day post ban since like winning the lottery comparing to 30 days removal of stream.
I dont agree with the moderation either way, but if its a bannable offence the timelimit should be different between posting and stream removal. If it was like 10 days stream removal it would hurt destiny and not be such a over punishment in comparision.
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On May 03 2012 00:26 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:18 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:14 ahtf wrote:
Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous of course this is way way way harder punishment then what idra got. Different users, different circumstances, different reasons for the bans... In IdrA's case, HE chose not to stream because he was temped, in an effort to direct hate-mail at Chill. Destiny got his stream de-featured so that the ban would actually affect him negatively, since that's ALL he uses TL for. Do you honestly not see a slight difference? Of course there is a difference. It dosnt change the fact that getting 30 day post ban since like winning the lottery comparing to 30 days removal of stream. I dont agree with the moderation either way, but if its a bannable offence the timelimit should be different between posting and stream removal. If it was like 10 days stream removal it would hurt destiny and not be such a over punishment in comparision.
30 days of posting bans would be a harsh punishment to anyone who is an active member of the community.
30 days of stream ban is a harsh punishment to destiny. IMO it's justified.
consider though if he was featured still on TL right now, judging by the things people have linked from his twitter I don't expect he's pulling any punches on his stream regarding the mods. Perhaps some time apart right now is best for both parties. If Destiny is totally removed from TL for a month, maybe when he comes back he'll be more respectful of the mods than he would be right now. If you are really worried about Destiny, worry about what happens if he pulls a stunt like this again and the mods perm him.
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On May 03 2012 00:26 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:18 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:14 ahtf wrote:
Seriously does any of the mods believe that banning idra from tl in anyway affected him more then it would have destiny. Im quite sure he himself said that he dosnt care about that.
Having that as reason for removing destinys stream and not idras, is ridicolous of course this is way way way harder punishment then what idra got. Different users, different circumstances, different reasons for the bans... In IdrA's case, HE chose not to stream because he was temped, in an effort to direct hate-mail at Chill. Destiny got his stream de-featured so that the ban would actually affect him negatively, since that's ALL he uses TL for. Do you honestly not see a slight difference? Of course there is a difference. It dosnt change the fact that getting 30 day post ban since like winning the lottery comparing to 30 days removal of stream. I dont agree with the moderation either way, but if its a bannable offence the timelimit should be different between posting and stream removal. If it was like 10 days stream removal it would hurt destiny and not be such a over punishment in comparision.
Tell me this: If IdrA wasn't streaming, what difference would it make if his stream was featured for the duration of his? Under the circumstances, all they could do was temp him. Destiny, on the other hand, is getting banned from TL, just like IdrA did, they're just making sure that the ban has an actual affect based on his usage of TL.
Also, in no manner, way, shape, or form do they guarantee "fair" moderation. In fact, they explicitly state that it will be anything but fair.
Anyways, even assuming the "crime" should be directly proportional to the punishment, which they never guarantee, they did completely different things, and IdrA received a LONGER ban. Destiny is doing nothing to show any contrition, any respect for the site or it's rules, and is generally not making any attempt to help the situation from his end, why should they extend him any favors, when HE was the one in the wrong to begin with?
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On May 02 2012 18:20 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:59 Mioraka wrote:On May 02 2012 15:58 Plexa wrote:On May 02 2012 14:28 Boiler Bandsman wrote:
Can a mod explain this apparent change in policy, or elaborate on the differences between this case and the IdrA 90 temp?
I'm paraphrasing, but I seem to remember reading that the decision was taken to keep IdrA's stream because "the stream listing is a resource for TL users, and de-listing a pro punishes the users as much as the pro" or something to that effect.
That was my understanding of the policy, so I was surprised when Destiny's stream was removed. Can someone enlighten me on this? Put it this way, you don't piss into the wind. I agree with banning destiny for the reasons stated, in fact, I'm not surprised at all. Given my short history here, most of the time there is a thread criticizing an outspoken player like idra or destiny, they would get angry over the flaming in that massive thread, say something offensive, and get banned. What makes me curious is that why did the mods let that thread stay open for such a long time? It's going to stir up a shitstorm, self righteous people are going to write letters to sponsors after reading it, we all know it will for the first moment we saw that thread. It is only a matter of time until destiny say something offensive when subjected to so many retarded posts ( lets not fool ourselves, there are so many people who got banned for saying stupid shit in that thread). It was left open because we don't want to close all threads by default that involve destiny. We decided to try to moderate it rather than close it, and well, we ended up having to close it anyway. Show nested quote +The real problem is the ban of his stream. Sure, you need a way to punish him; sure, he deserves some kind of punishment. But like kennegit said about idra, it's us, the viewers who are also getting punished. Most of us don't even care to read about the thread, but now we have to go out of our way to find the stream. This action just contradicts what kennegit said on the state of the game about banning idra.
I just feel like its a childish response to a childish act.
Edit: about the idra being a veteran argument, I derive from kennegit's explanation that the reason they didnt ban his stream is not about he's a veteran, but because it will be a punishment to both the streamer and the fans. I don't see any difference in this case.
Of course, this is your house, but this house is getting to a size that it really affects a lot of people if you hangs the house rule on different cases. Destiny isn't a member of the TL community. He doesn't post a lot as motbob explained. He uses TL for his stream almost exclusively. Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed. Moreover, the way he treated staff before and after the ban is completely unacceptable. When you come after the people who facilitate your stream being listed you shouldn't expect to get away with it scott free. In this case, while we appreciate that the viewers are also harmed by this action, we have judged that there is more harm by allowing Destiny to stream while banned and hence our decision.
right now Blizzard is really sensitive to homophobic stuff due to that apology Mike Morhaime had to make.
i think if TL.Net wants to grow along with the rest of eSports into a major sport then your organization has no choice, but to dissociate itself from "shock jock" style casters like Destiny. Other major sports simply do not permit the kind of language Destiny uses in its communications with the general public. Its a land mine waiting to explode. You guys have major sponsors you need to represent properly.
i think TL.Net should explicitly change its policy in this regard if growth in international corporate sponsorship is part of your plan.
but as you've said it is "your house".
maybe you do not want to "grow" from a corporate sponsorship perspective... and if that is the case TL.Net should probably just keep everything status quo.
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30 days of posting, makes you not able to answer some posts. 30 days of removal of streams hurts you financially. YOu cant even compare it kerpal.
Jinglehell: Ok i didnt know that they explicity state it won't be fair. Im usually just a reader on tl so havnt read the rules. Very very strange rule but sure.
well destiny has agreed he went to the same level as the moderator. Why would you show remorse when you enter a thread where people have been discussing you for a couple of thousand post, then you debate in the same way then the rest and get banned?
Ican remember wrongly but did Idra show any remorse btw?
But my hole argument falls if tl moderation dosn´t try to be fair. So I give up. To me it seems that the moderators agreed with those that don´t like destiny and found a reason to ban him since they couldnt ban him for what he says in a ladder game. The way the insulted moderator debate is pretty much proof of that according to me.
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On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you.
Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene.
On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really been a part of TL.
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On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL.
This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term.
TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny.
On May 03 2012 00:48 ahtf wrote:
30 days of posting, makes you not able to answer some posts. 30 days of removal of streams hurts you financially. YOu cant even compare it kerpal.
Jinglehell: Ok i didnt know that they explicity state it won't be fair. Im usually just a reader on tl so havnt read the rules. Very very strange rule but sure.
well destiny has agreed he went to the same level as the moderator. Why would you show remorse when you enter a thread where people have been discussing you for a couple of thousand post, then you debate in the same way then the rest and get banned?
Ican remember wrongly but did Idra show any remorse btw?
But my hole argument falls if tl moderation dosn´t try to be fair. So I give up. To me it seems that the moderators agreed with those that don´t like destiny and found a reason to ban him since they couldnt ban him for what he says in a ladder game. The way the insulted moderator debate is pretty much proof of that according to me.
And if anyone sank to anyone else's level, Intrigue dropped to Destiny's. Not vice versa. Although frankly, it was nowhere NEAR his level. I don't see Intrigue running around screaming about stupid fucking cunts.
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On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL.
So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to...
Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses.
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On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses.
If Destiny wants a website where he can scream racial slurs and mod the discussion about it his way, nobody on TL is blocking his access to Reddit, 4chan, or websites he makes for himself.
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On May 03 2012 00:48 ahtf wrote:
30 days of posting, makes you not able to answer some posts. 30 days of removal of streams hurts you financially. YOu cant even compare it kerpal.
Jinglehell: Ok i didnt know that they explicity state it won't be fair. Im usually just a reader on tl so havnt read the rules. Very very strange rule but sure.
well destiny has agreed he went to the same level as the moderator. Why would you show remorse when you enter a thread where people have been discussing you for a couple of thousand post, then you debate in the same way then the rest and get banned?
Ican remember wrongly but did Idra show any remorse btw?
But my hole argument falls if tl moderation dosn´t try to be fair. So I give up. To me it seems that the moderators agreed with those that don´t like destiny and found a reason to ban him since they couldnt ban him for what he says in a ladder game. The way the insulted moderator debate is pretty much proof of that according to me.
I don't know if you read the thread and everything destiny said in it, perhaps you should go read it again. Destiny admitting to going 'to the same level' as intrigue is just absurd. He went from 0 to calling a mod a faggot in about 2 posts.
as you are a newer user would it be safe to assume you haven't found this thread yet?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865
if the mods had wanted to ban him for what he said in the game, they would have. Or they might have banned him for his comments about racism in the thread, but they only banned him because of his attacks on 'members of the community' ie mods and fellow posters.
you can say that in your opinion the mods are just lieing cause they want to get rid of him.... but he'll be back in a month and TL could have just got rid of him. If they wanted him gone he wouldn't be temp banned.
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On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny.
If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while.
Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate.
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On May 03 2012 01:04 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny. If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while. Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate.
Ok, if my wife has her workplace listed on her facebook, and starts screaming racial slurs there, and her boss tells her it has to stop, and she calls him a stupid fucking cunt, will she still have a job?
Debate and insults are two different things. And intrigue's first post was an effort to get people in the thread to go about voicing their complaints more rationally, while saying he wasn't a fan of what Destiny was doing. Destiny started insulting him for it, along with other people. At that point, TL's right to moderate their site comes into play. They added the de-feature to make sure it had an actual effect on him. Also their prerogative.
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On May 03 2012 01:04 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny. If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while. Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate.
A mod already posted about why it was kept open, they said that they'd prefer to moderate posters rather than topics. So the thread is open, because it's fine to talk about how we feel about destiny using racial slurs on the ladder, but to tell people they're 'being cry-babies' (for example) in that thread is below the standard of posting we try to maintain here. It's fine to talk about racism, but not ok to make racist attacks.
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On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses.
Do I seriously need to rewrite my post in point form for you?
1. Idra has been a part of TL for years and years. He has been a big part of the foreign Starcraft scene for a very long time. He has contributed a lot to the community all these years despite his shortcomings.
2. Destiny has not been a part of TL. He doesn't contribute to TL. He has been a part of the SC2 scene for a very short time in comparison. Emphasis on the part that Destiny really has never been a part of TL.
3. Idra has been a prominent figure of foreign Starcraft for years and years.
4. Destinys relevance is miniscule.
Idra's significance to the foreign professional scene was reason enough to keep his stream up simply because of his relevance. You really can't say the same for Destiny.
And if you seriously think that there is no difference to calling out someone for being a foul person to calling someone a nigger or a gook for no reason, then there really isn't anything to say to you anymore. When Destiny calls random people niggers and gooks online then he deserves to be called out for it. He simply is and has been a foul person. Don't be so absurd as to think that pointing out that Destiny's conduct is unpleasing is in any way equivalent to having a foul manners. No one deserves to be called racial slurs randomly by an asshole while playing a game. But if you are that asshole then you fully deserve to be called out on it.
I'm sorry, but no one cares if you have to support a family if the method you're doing that by involves you being a very unpleasant person.
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On May 03 2012 01:09 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 01:04 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny. If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while. Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate. Ok, if my wife has her workplace listed on her facebook, and starts screaming racial slurs there, and her boss tells her it has to stop, and she calls him a stupid fucking cunt, will she still have a job? Debate and insults are two different things. And intrigue's first post was an effort to get people in the thread to go about voicing their complaints more rationally, while saying he wasn't a fan of what Destiny was doing. Destiny started insulting him for it, along with other people. At that point, TL's right to moderate their site comes into play. They added the de-feature to make sure it had an actual effect on him. Also their prerogative.
The first post i found between intrigue and destiny is intrigue calling everyone who thinks like destiny for an idiot. If it aint the first one please citate it
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On May 03 2012 01:17 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses. Do I seriously need to rewrite my post in point form for you? 1. Idra has been a part of TL for years and years. He has been a big part of the foreign Starcraft scene for a very long time. He has contributed a lot to the community all these years despite his shortcomings. 2. Destiny has not been a part of TL. He doesn't contribute to TL. He has been a part of the SC2 scene for a very short time in comparison. Emphasis on the part that Destiny really has never been a part of TL. 3. Idra has been a prominent figure of foreign Starcraft for years and years. 4. Destinys relevance is miniscule. Idra's significance to the foreign professional scene was reason enough to keep his stream up simply because of his relevance. You really can't say the same for Destiny. And if you seriously think that there is no difference to calling out someone for being a foul person to calling someone a nigger or a gook for no reason, then there really isn't anything to say to you anymore. When Destiny calls random people niggers and gooks online then he deserves to be called out for it. He simply is and has been a foul person. Don't be so absurd as to think that pointing out that Destiny's conduct is unpleasing is in any way equivalent to having a foul manners. No one deserves to be called racial slurs randomly by an asshole while playing a game. But if you are that asshole then you fully deserve to be called out on it. I'm sorry, but no one cares if you have to support a family if the method you're doing that by involves you being a very unpleasant person.
Just because every internet discussion has to do this, (I'm pretty sure it's a law somewhere), there were plenty of Nazis that had families to support. They were still doing foul things.
No, I'm not comparing Destiny to the Nazis. I'm just reducing to the most absurd level to demonstrate a logical fallacy.
Destiny does shit a lot of people don't like. People call him on it. Destiny turns the discussion into a combination of rationalization and insults, in a way that's against the rules of the site. Destiny gets banned. Seems simple to me.
On May 03 2012 01:21 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 01:09 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 01:04 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:56 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. This. If he's concerned about losing income, he should do things to avoid it. If my wife goes in to work and starts shouting racial slurs, guess what, our income is going to drop drastically, and it probably won't just be short term. TL isn't financially responsible for Destiny. If destiny was on tl and used racial slurs sure, now he posted in a thread that was kept open and discussed his racial slurs. He didn't come to tl to just shout them out. If tl don't want any racial slurs at all, why keep topics about them open. Of course destiny will show up and give his stand point after a while. Sure take a stand against racial slurs, I dont think anyone will protest, but then state it and donät allow threads debating it, if you allow debates you need to allow both sides to debate. Ok, if my wife has her workplace listed on her facebook, and starts screaming racial slurs there, and her boss tells her it has to stop, and she calls him a stupid fucking cunt, will she still have a job? Debate and insults are two different things. And intrigue's first post was an effort to get people in the thread to go about voicing their complaints more rationally, while saying he wasn't a fan of what Destiny was doing. Destiny started insulting him for it, along with other people. At that point, TL's right to moderate their site comes into play. They added the de-feature to make sure it had an actual effect on him. Also their prerogative. The first post i found between intrigue and destiny is intrigue calling everyone who thinks like destiny for an idiot. If it aint the first one please citate it
while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions?
Cited. That's not calling everyone who things like Destiny an idiot. It's saying a certain behavior is dumb. That's a HUGE distinction.
Then, intrigue gives a suggestion of a reasonable, professional way to handle the situation.
Don't forget the part where intrigue expresses disappointment in the mentality of Destiny's detractors too.
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On May 03 2012 01:17 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses. Do I seriously need to rewrite my post in point form for you? 1. Idra has been a part of TL for years and years. He has been a big part of the foreign Starcraft scene for a very long time. He has contributed a lot to the community all these years despite his shortcomings. 2. Destiny has not been a part of TL. He doesn't contribute to TL. He has been a part of the SC2 scene for a very short time in comparison. Emphasis on the part that Destiny really has never been a part of TL. 3. Idra has been a prominent figure of foreign Starcraft for years and years. 4. Destinys relevance is miniscule. Idra's significance to the foreign professional scene was reason enough to keep his stream up simply because of his relevance. You really can't say the same for Destiny. And if you seriously think that there is no difference to calling out someone for being a foul person to calling someone a nigger or a gook for no reason, then there really isn't anything to say to you anymore. When Destiny calls random people niggers and gooks online then he deserves to be called out for it. He simply is and has been a foul person. Don't be so absurd as to think that pointing out that Destiny's conduct is unpleasing is in any way equivalent to having a foul manners. No one deserves to be called racial slurs randomly by an asshole while playing a game. But if you are that asshole then you fully deserve to be called out on it. I'm sorry, but no one cares if you have to support a family if the method you're doing that by involves you being a very unpleasant person.
It seems like i understood everything the first time. Its ok to do shit if you are a pro..
Second part calling a random person racial slurs is for me as insulting as anyone calling me a "foul person". Since racial slurs against someone who clearly ain´t meant as anything racist is to me as insulting as any other insult.
Insults is always low, but I don't see the reason why I should take a random racial slur toward me worse then someone calling me a moron or foul person etc. I would actually rank moron or foul person as worse since they seem more adressed to me as a person.
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You may have missed my edit, ahtf, but I cited the post in question. Unless you're speaking some very obscure dialect of English, the post is definitely NOT what you said it was.
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. That's not calling everyone who things like Destiny an idiot. It's saying a certain behavior is dumb. That's a HUGE distinction.
Then, intrigue gives a suggestion of a reasonable, professional way to handle the situation.
Don't forget the part where intrigue expresses disappointment in the mentality of Destiny's detractors too.
Ok, I will stop posting now because I don´t think we will agree :p
I don't think the post from intrigue is any better then destinys responds to it. He says he thinks destinys actions are idiotic, which means he takes a position on the subject He also states that destiny should give a fake apology, which offends destiny. Destinys answer is according to me in the same tone and then both of them spiral away.
You will probably not agree, since I think you and I stand differently on insults. I don't rank random insults on the internet as harsher because the are racial slurs or if they are just calling someone idiot. Since that what we are pretty much debating now, I will let it rest. Have a nice day
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On May 03 2012 01:26 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 01:17 koreasilver wrote:On May 03 2012 00:58 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really a part of TL. So pro players can do things other can because they are pro... That is a better reason then supporting a family..... Destiny has not done anything for starcraft 2, he was in forbes giving starcraft spotlight, how many other starcraft players have done that, alot of his fans probably watch stracraft because of him to... Btw why is calling someone a "foul person" better then calling a person some of the insults destiny uses. Do I seriously need to rewrite my post in point form for you? 1. Idra has been a part of TL for years and years. He has been a big part of the foreign Starcraft scene for a very long time. He has contributed a lot to the community all these years despite his shortcomings. 2. Destiny has not been a part of TL. He doesn't contribute to TL. He has been a part of the SC2 scene for a very short time in comparison. Emphasis on the part that Destiny really has never been a part of TL. 3. Idra has been a prominent figure of foreign Starcraft for years and years. 4. Destinys relevance is miniscule. Idra's significance to the foreign professional scene was reason enough to keep his stream up simply because of his relevance. You really can't say the same for Destiny. And if you seriously think that there is no difference to calling out someone for being a foul person to calling someone a nigger or a gook for no reason, then there really isn't anything to say to you anymore. When Destiny calls random people niggers and gooks online then he deserves to be called out for it. He simply is and has been a foul person. Don't be so absurd as to think that pointing out that Destiny's conduct is unpleasing is in any way equivalent to having a foul manners. No one deserves to be called racial slurs randomly by an asshole while playing a game. But if you are that asshole then you fully deserve to be called out on it. I'm sorry, but no one cares if you have to support a family if the method you're doing that by involves you being a very unpleasant person. It seems like i understood everything the first time. Its ok to do shit if you are a pro.. Second part calling a random person racial slurs is for me as insulting as anyone calling me a "foul person". Since racial slurs against someone who clearly ain´t meant as anything racist is to me as insulting as any other insult. Insults is always low, but I don't see the reason why I should take a random racial slur toward me worse then someone calling me a moron or foul person etc. I would actually rank moron or foul person as worse since they seem more adressed to me as a person.
welcome to TL! when you created an account you were linked to this thread, reading it will help you understand the TL attitude towards 'pros' (or more specifically community veterans/contributors)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883
calling you foul is insulting to you and may or may not be true.
calling you by a racial slur is insulting to every person of that race.
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I would really like to hear a comment on how intrigue handled the situation in the mentioned thread then...
Of course he did write a good post at first to which destiny replied kind of harshly. But there was absolutely no need to attack Destiny on a personal level. I understand the difficulty of modding an exploding thread, like in this case, but don't be a fool putting words in the opposing side's mouth, assuming their voice like you're imitating the class nerd on the playground. Especially when you have one of those privileged fancy cutsie avatar icons.
It felt very inappropriate and it was not helping the thread at all to come to any constructive conclusion.
The banning reasons were absolutly legitimate, but i do not think there is a need to let a thread like this turn into a massive shitstorm the way it did.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 00:52 intrigue wrote:
haha he's soooo offended. dishes it out but can't take it! TL mods are usually really nice people, but that doesn't mean we're not going to call it as we see it. it's our house! and you guys are wonderful beloved guests, until you start flinging shit.
i don't mean to make light of his alleged emotional pain, but that's butthurt if i've ever seen it
If your gonna troll someone why get all hurt and have confrences about pissing into the wind and our house, hoo-rah? You can call it as you see it, because if anybody disagrees they will get banned, de-featured, and whatever else you guys can collectively come up with.
It is funny that this is the most positive thread i've ever seen on Idra. Hilarious.
I agree that how Destiny derives his income shouldn't be an issue for the moderators to consider, it is also not a reason for him to toe your line. I also agree with the ban, he was way over the line, but that happens when there is 100 pages railroading you into the ground. 30 days...ouch
I think the whole situation was a giant over-reaction. the racism, the response, and the action taken.
It illustrates that pro players shouldn't involve themselves in this community. Idra, TT1, Destiny, Nony i've seen these guys lose thier shit at people and suffer consequently. No reason to invite that mess. If i were well known, i wouldn't do it.
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So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL:
The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community.
A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period.
I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything.
But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him.
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On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: Show nested quote +The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him.
So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf?
/snark
TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did.
The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans.
Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.)
Sure, they also dislike the way he expressed his view, but they pretty clearly said it was the venue and means of expressing it. If you're going to assign motives to the staff, that's on YOU. Not them.
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A cop would shoot you for assualt with newspaper. I am sure of it.
Namelos you make a very good point. They did change thier rules to be better able to hurt him finacially huh?
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On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.)
Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking.
There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place.
If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others.
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It is ironic that TL is all about making esport compatible for the masses and financially reliant. Says that everyone should support everything slightly related to esports and then bans someone and hurts him financially who actually makes a living out of sc2. In addition to that he is most successful frist person starcraft streamer by far.
So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. Click for slightly relevant pic.
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On May 03 2012 03:21 Namenlos wrote:It is ironic that TL is all about making esport compatible for the masses and financially reliant. Says that everyone should support everything slightly related to esports and then bans someone and hurts him financially who actually makes a living out of sc2. In addition to that he is most successful frist person starcraft streamer by far. So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. C lick for slightly relevant pic.
He will be fine not being listed for 30 days.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:21 Namenlos wrote:It is ironic that TL is all about making esport compatible for the masses and financially reliant. Says that everyone should support everything slightly related to esports and then bans someone and hurts him financially who actually makes a living out of sc2. In addition to that he is most successful frist person starcraft streamer by far. So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. C lick for slightly relevant pic.
Uhh...you do realize he has a successful stream because he plays LoL a lot and is listed on sites like clgaming.net. Considering the popularity of LoL streamers, it's not surprising that some of them would check out Destiny's stream when he plays with players like Dyrus (pro player on a popular team, easily gets 20k when he streamed on own3d) and phantomlord (ex-pro, high elo).
edit: whoops, quoted wrong post.
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On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others.
No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion.
The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior.
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Edit: Nevermind wrong quote was done. All good now.
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Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban.
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted.
The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did.
“Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa
The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him.
You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice.
To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated.
Thank you.
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On May 03 2012 03:52 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban.
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted.
The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did.
“Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa
The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him.
You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice.
To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated.
Thank you.
I don't think that's why the mods ban, i think bans are to punish.
banning for the 'benefit of the community' sounds like a sticky bit of business.
for example flame wars like that thread could be considered to be for the good of the community if what you're looking for is post counts, activity and advertising views. Banning any user is almost always bad for the community, because you might put them off sc2 and they might not watch streams and give revenue and... i hope you see my point.
the only consistent way to moderate (and that's what you're after) is to punish bad behaviour destiny stepped out of line (way out) and the mods needed to punish him. Banning his account isn't a punishment, so unlist his stream.
I think that the mods would like to keep streams listed where possible, but that shouldn't override the need to moderate bad posting.
i think that the mods do what they can to 'benefit the community' so long as it doesn't interfere with their need to moderate the forums. i think you're wrong to take the precedent of idra remaining listed as a rule that over-rides all else.
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Consistency would be appreciated.
I personally would rather that issues concerning community personalities be handled on a case-by-case basis, where possible
i think that the mods do what they can to 'benefit the community' so long as it doesn't interfere with their need to moderate the forums.
To add on to this, the TL community is not just the forums. It's also Liquipedia and the streams listed. The staff has a responsibility and a desire towards the good health of the entirety.
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On May 03 2012 03:34 JBright wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:21 Namenlos wrote:It is ironic that TL is all about making esport compatible for the masses and financially reliant. Says that everyone should support everything slightly related to esports and then bans someone and hurts him financially who actually makes a living out of sc2. In addition to that he is most successful frist person starcraft streamer by far. So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. C lick for slightly relevant pic. Uhh...you do realize he has a successful stream because he plays LoL a lot and is listed on sites like clgaming.net. Considering the popularity of LoL streamers, it's not surprising that some of them would check out Destiny's stream when he plays with players like Dyrus (pro player on a popular team, easily gets 20k when he streamed on own3d) and phantomlord (ex-pro, high elo). edit: whoops, quoted wrong post.
In my post there is a link, you can browse back a year and you will see that he was the most popular fps sc2 streamer way before his lol time. Thats was the reason I put the link there, as a source if someone doubts that.
Well said DharmaTurtle especially the paragraph after the Plexa quote.
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On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior.
Personal attacks are personal attacks.
I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is.
All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny.
I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion.
Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue.
By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that.
I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:20 Namenlos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:34 JBright wrote:On May 03 2012 03:21 Namenlos wrote:It is ironic that TL is all about making esport compatible for the masses and financially reliant. Says that everyone should support everything slightly related to esports and then bans someone and hurts him financially who actually makes a living out of sc2. In addition to that he is most successful frist person starcraft streamer by far. So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. C lick for slightly relevant pic. Uhh...you do realize he has a successful stream because he plays LoL a lot and is listed on sites like clgaming.net. Considering the popularity of LoL streamers, it's not surprising that some of them would check out Destiny's stream when he plays with players like Dyrus (pro player on a popular team, easily gets 20k when he streamed on own3d) and phantomlord (ex-pro, high elo). edit: whoops, quoted wrong post. In my post there is a link, you can browse back a year and you will see that he was the most popular fps sc2 streamer way before his lol time. Thats was the reason I put the link there, as a source if someone doubts that. Well said DharmaTurtle especially the paragraph after the Plexa quote.
Right, and it's been said many times that the ranking from that site takes into account the number of hours a streamer streams over the course of that month. It's also the reason why the top LoL streamers do so well - they stream for 6-10 hours a day 5-6 days a week. Destiny streams everyday because it's a source of income and that makes him rank very highly by their metrics. There is no doubt he has a lot of viewers, but he is definitely not the most popular by far.
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On May 03 2012 03:52 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban.
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted.
The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did.
“Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa
The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him.
You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice.
To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated.
Thank you.
DharmaTurtle all you do is defend Destiny here and on Reddit. Give it rest guy! Mods explained banning his stream will teach him a lesson as he uses this site just for that. Banning IdrA's account made sense because he uses this website to post more. The point is to teach them a lesson about not acting like a retard.
Also these two scenarios are different. IdrA is a old forum goer and his set of circumstances were different. Stop comparing the two just because both of them insulted a mod. TL doesn't owe you anything and try taking some sense into Destiny and ask him to act like an adult instead of spamming forums on his behalf.
TL mods were more than tolerant of Destiny's behavior for a long time. They banned Orb's stream for using n-word before very quickly. They are correct in de-featuring Destiny's stream for 30 days. I say it should be permanent.
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On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what you understand under the definition of "hate speech". All i wanted to point out is that intrigues way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue the issue nor is it helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that they are free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt, since a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion.
are we even reading the same posts? intrigue doesn't make personal attacks, he is (at worst) condescending towards destiny's position.
intrigue posts to try to get people to calm down here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#782
saying:
while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions?
highlights:
it's dumb to use racist terms, but why can't we not overreact by emailing sponsors
he's disappointed in destiny for not having learned from what happened with orb, advises him to apologize however insencerely (ie not stir this up)
destiny replies here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787
saying:
Sorry, "PR"? You want to talk about respect? How about treating a community of people like humans, and not a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots waiting for you to appease them with hollow, empty, meaningless phrases that everyone finds kosher?
You may not like what I have to say, but I will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make.
I'm tired of public figures that stand for nothing, and instead merely try to act as a mirror, reflecting back onto other people whatever it is they want to see.
which of these two is making personal attacks?
follow the thread through, you see that intrigue is remarkably civil, if (as i said) occasionally a little condescending
while destiny busts out jems like:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=46#918
Seriously? Who is this faggot? I thought the colored name or w/e meant he was a mod or some shit?
How fucking mad are you right now, bro?
seriously i don't understand how people see intrigue as even remotely out of line.
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On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion.
The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous.
You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that.
Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past.
Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things.
You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used.
Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you.
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On May 03 2012 04:49 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what you understand under the definition of "hate speech". All i wanted to point out is that intrigues way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue the issue nor is it helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that they are free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt, since a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. are we even reading the same posts? intrigue doesn't make personal attacks, he is (at worst) condescending towards destiny's position. intrigue posts to try to get people to calm down here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#782saying: Show nested quote +while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions? highlights: it's dumb to use racist terms, but why can't we not overreact by emailing sponsors he's disappointed in destiny for not having learned from what happened with orb, advises him to apologize however insencerely (ie not stir this up) destiny replies here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787saying: Show nested quote +Sorry, "PR"? You want to talk about respect? How about treating a community of people like humans, and not a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots waiting for you to appease them with hollow, empty, meaningless phrases that everyone finds kosher?
You may not like what I have to say, but I will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make.
I'm tired of public figures that stand for nothing, and instead merely try to act as a mirror, reflecting back onto other people whatever it is they want to see. which of these two is making personal attacks? follow the thread through, you see that intrigue is remarkably civil, if (as i said) occasionally a little condescending while destiny busts out jems like: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=46#918Show nested quote +Seriously? Who is this faggot? I thought the colored name or w/e meant he was a mod or some shit?
How fucking mad are you right now, bro? seriously i don't understand how people see intrigue as even remotely out of line.
Are you reading the same posts?
None of the first two quotes contain personal attacks AND THAT'S WHERE IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED.
However you seem to overlook http://imgur.com/Hc23e
Are these personal attacks or not? THose were posted before destiny calls him a "faggot".
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On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process ( as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Please cite the personal attack that was made on Intrigue in this post. (Expressing "disgust and disappointment" in someone sounds like something you would hear from your mother. He's not throwing names around like cunt, faggot, or bitch at this point in the discouse, or any other kind of ad-hominems.)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787
That prompted wholesale degradation from this
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#782
To this
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#795
And then this post, which wasn't even solicited as there was no response from Destiny yet to the previous post. In fact, Destiny hadn't even posted anything at all in between these two posts. These were both completely unprovoked.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=41#802
This is hardly, snarking a bit. This is being a brat because you're too apathetic to argue properly.
Then, to put all doubt to rest as to the attitude in question, gloats happily about it here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95875¤tpage=1022#20432
If the personal attacks you're referring to are those made by Destiny after this mod displays above that he clearly is only interested in trollbaiting the topic, then I agree with you, they were unacceptable. They also aren't what you're trying to refer to here.
I'm fairly certain the spirit of this topic is attempting to address problems like these, as they give a pretty bad black eye to the modding system of TL. When it works, it works well. However, displays like the above tarnish the system pretty badly.
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On May 03 2012 04:55 luvy wrote:Are you reading the same posts? None of the first two quotes contain personal attacks AND THAT'S WHERE IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED. However you seem to overlook http://imgur.com/Hc23eAre these personal attacks or not? THose were posted before destiny calls him a "faggot".
uh not? It is condescending but nothing that Destiny of all people needed to get hurt over.
It's so funny that Destiny and fans like you don't realize how "Faggot", "Nigger" could be considered as a personal attacks to some people. It might be just words to you but to a gay black man, you ruined his day!
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On May 03 2012 05:03 AzurewinD wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process ( as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Please cite the personal attack that was made on Intrigue in this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787That prompted wholesale degradation from this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#782To this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#795And then this post, which wasn't even solicited as there was no response from Destiny yet to the previous post. In fact, Destiny hadn't even posted anything at all in between the above two posts. These were both completely unprovoked. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=41#802This is hardly, snarking a bit. This is being a brat because you're too apathetic to argue properly. Then, to put all doubt to rest as to the attitude in question, gloats happily about it here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95875¤tpage=1022#20432If the personal attacks you're referring to are those made by Destiny after this mod displays above that he clearly is only interested in trollbaiting the topic, then I agree with you, they were unacceptable. They also aren't what you're trying to refer to here. I'm fairly certain the spirit of this topic is attempting to address problems like these, as they give a pretty bad black eye to the modding system of TL. When it works, it works well. However, displays like the above tarnish the system pretty badly.
See my prior post about contextual use of language. If you can't figure it out, I don't see it being worth the headache of trying to spoon-feed it to another raging fan.
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On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you.
Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion?
Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever.
Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful.
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On May 03 2012 05:03 AzurewinD wrote:Please cite the personal attack that was made on Intrigue in this post. (Expressing "disgust and disappointment" in someone sounds like something you would hear from your mother. He's not throwing names around like cunt, faggot, or bitch at this point in the discouse, or any other kind of ad-hominems.) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787
EDIT: So you think expressing disgust and disappointment is very "mother" like where as condescending remarks by Intrigue are "personal attacks". Way to twist everyting to your logic, buddy.
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On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful.
That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again.
And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit.
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On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote + I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited
So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance.
This didn't happen.
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On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful.
those posts in the pic... i QUOTED them to you!
if you can't see the difference between what destiny is saying and what intrigue was saying, then i honestly have nothing further to say here. Enjoy your thread, may you continue in your wonderful fantasy world and may the truth never rear it's ugly head.
goodbye.
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On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen.
First of all i edited the post since you preemtively tried to discredit the personal attack as a "mother" like comment. Read that first.
Second, when you are trying to help and somebody comes back to you with the above insult, all bets are off. Infact Intrigue's condescending remarks were sort of a reply mocking Destiny's grandoise stance on this topic.
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On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen.
First of all i edited the post since you preemtively tried to discredit the personal attack as a "mother" like comment. Read that first.
Second, when you are trying to help somebody and they come back to you with the above insult, all bets are off. Infact Intrigue's condescending remarks were sort of a reply mocking Destiny's grandoise stance on this topic.
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On May 03 2012 05:12 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. What he says is pretty much, "destiny you are an arrogant idiot and should shut up". Hidding insults behind sarcasm dosnt change it from beeing insults. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. those posts in the pic... i QUOTED them to you! if you can't see the difference between what destiny is saying and what intrigue was saying, then i honestly have nothing further to say here. Enjoy your thread, may you continue in your wonderful fantasy world and may the truth never rear it's ugly head. goodbye.
What he pretty much says is "destiny you are an arrogant idiot that should shut up". Hidding insults behind sarcasm dosnt change the fact that it is an insult.
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On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit.
I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said.
I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community?
Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you?
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On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen.
I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you?
And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand.
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On May 03 2012 05:15 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. First of all i edited the post since you preemtively tried to discredit the personal attack as a "mother" like comment. Read that first. Second, when you are trying to help somebody and they come back to you with the above insult, all bets are off. Infact Intrigue's condescending remarks were sort of a reply mocking Destiny's grandoise stance on this topic.
The diffecrene between the post are that influence uses stupid and dumb for what he thinks of the communites and destinys action while destiny uses disgusted and disappointed to describe what he thinks of influence stand point. Not a gigantic difference in my world.,
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On May 03 2012 05:21 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you? And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand.
Yes of course he gets these snarky replies. But by a mod? Come on. If he insults the community ban/tempban/warn him. Done. But don't fire up the witchhunt even more.
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On May 03 2012 05:21 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:15 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. First of all i edited the post since you preemtively tried to discredit the personal attack as a "mother" like comment. Read that first. Second, when you are trying to help somebody and they come back to you with the above insult, all bets are off. Infact Intrigue's condescending remarks were sort of a reply mocking Destiny's grandoise stance on this topic. The diffecrene between the post are that influence uses stupid and dumb for what he thinks of the communites and destinys action while destiny uses disgusted and disappointed to describe what he thinks of influence stand point. Not a gigantic difference in my world.,
Huh? Intrigue you mean.
In YOUR eyes, there might not be a difference but in MINE this is what i see: A guy gives another guy some advice, the second guy goes off tangent about some b.s. cause insulting the first guy and a community following "PR" moves.
At the end it's how the mods of this PRIVATELY run forum view it and that's that.
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On May 03 2012 05:24 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:21 huameng wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you? And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand. Yes of course he gets these snarky replies. But by a mod? Come on. If he insults the community ban/tempban/warn him. Done. But don't fire up the witchhunt even more.
Oh!! we should expect a standard from a TL mod but god forbid we expect anything from a far more popular community figure like Destiny. Come on! that's unreasonable! You guys are ridiculous.
TL put up with Destiny's b.s. for long enough, i think they should have banned his ass long time ago. You should be happy they have been so patient for so long.
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you gotta watch out man, these guys
will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology.
i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with.
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On May 03 2012 05:26 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:24 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:21 huameng wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you? And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand. Yes of course he gets these snarky replies. But by a mod? Come on. If he insults the community ban/tempban/warn him. Done. But don't fire up the witchhunt even more. Oh!! we should expect a standard from a TL mod but god forbid we expect anything from a far more popular community figure like Destiny. Come on! that's unreasonable! You guys are ridiculous.
Where did i defend destiny again? if he does that shit ban the fuck out of him i just wrote that down.
So you really think letting a witchhunt happen is okay because it's destiny and he deserves this?
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On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you?
Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community.
I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.)
What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did.
And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements.
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On May 03 2012 05:29 kerpal wrote:you gotta watch out man, these guys Show nested quote +will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with.
can you please stop implying that i am dumb and give a statement on intrigue's behaviour as a responsible mod?
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On May 03 2012 05:31 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:29 kerpal wrote:you gotta watch out man, these guys will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with. can you please stop implying that i am dumb and give a statement on intrigue's behaviour as a responsible mod?
Are the mods not allowed to post except to close threads anymore? Intrigue was posting as a MEMBER OF THE SITE.
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On May 03 2012 05:24 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:21 huameng wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you? And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand. Yes of course he gets these snarky replies. But by a mod? Come on. If he insults the community ban/tempban/warn him. Done. But don't fire up the witchhunt even more.
Yeah I agree with you that intrigue was being an asshole. That's sort of how TL mods operate though, they like to drop their hammer of justice not just through bannings but verbally as well. (And they allow other bigname veterans to do the same) Is that the best way to do things? I don't know, I personally don't think so and I would not have handled this the same was intrigue did, but TL has made their decision on that--it's a core part of the TL identity at this point--and I don't think it's going to change.
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On May 03 2012 05:31 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:29 kerpal wrote:you gotta watch out man, these guys will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with. can you please stop implying that i am dumb and give a statement on intrigue's behaviour as a responsible mod?
my statement on intrigues behaviour?
flawless, outstanding, exemplary. Did what destiny claims to do by standing up for himself in the face of ignorant attacks. As a moderator, ridiculed self-important pontificating and opposed an attitude of self-centred bigotry.
why, what would your statement on destiny's behaviour be?
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On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: [quote] A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements.
I never talked about intrigue's opinion, i am talking about the way he presented it. Do you think his sarcastic remarks were fine and well thought out? I do believe that there was a possible way to avoid a 130+ page thread, in which destiny makes a disgrace of himself. Why is it so hard for you look at it from another perspective?
When i am saying "ban that guy(being destiny)", am i being critically of destiny's choice of speech or not?
Does intrigue need to go down to his level, though?
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On May 03 2012 05:37 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:31 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:29 kerpal wrote:you gotta watch out man, these guys will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with. can you please stop implying that i am dumb and give a statement on intrigue's behaviour as a responsible mod? my statement on intrigues behaviour? flawless, outstanding, exemplary. Did what destiny claims to do by standing up for himself in the face of ignorant attacks. As a moderator, ridiculed self-important pontificating and opposed an attitude of self-centred bigotry. why, what would your statement on destiny's behaviour be?
my statement on destiny's behaviour?
ridicolous, self-centred, unreasonable. Can do whatever he wants on his stream, i don't watch it. But taking his attitude to the TL forums is very wrong.
why, does this serve as a base to make a mod help start a witchhunt?
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On May 03 2012 05:38 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:
[quote]
So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf?
/snark
TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did.
The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans.
Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements. I never talked about intrigue's opinion, i am talking about the way he presented it. Do you think his sarcastic remarks were fine and well thought out? I do believe that there was a possible way to avoid a 130+ page thread, in which destiny makes a disgrace of himself. Why is it so hard for you look at it from another perspective? When i am saying "ban that guy(being destiny)", am i being critically of destiny's choice of speech or not? Does intrigue need to go down to his level, though?
Intrigue went nowhere near Destiny's level. If you think a little bit of sarcasm is somehow the same as using and condoning hate speech, and making ad hominem attacks directed at the entire community, then you've completely exceeded my capacity to mock your analytical faculties.
The mods originally wanted to allow dialogue on the topic. Intrigue was merely PART of that dialogue as a member of the community. The thread died because the dialogue/vitriol ratio went completely insane.
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On May 03 2012 05:42 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:38 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:
[quote]
Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking.
There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place.
If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements. I never talked about intrigue's opinion, i am talking about the way he presented it. Do you think his sarcastic remarks were fine and well thought out? I do believe that there was a possible way to avoid a 130+ page thread, in which destiny makes a disgrace of himself. Why is it so hard for you look at it from another perspective? When i am saying "ban that guy(being destiny)", am i being critically of destiny's choice of speech or not? Does intrigue need to go down to his level, though? Intrigue went nowhere near Destiny's level. If you think a little bit of sarcasm is somehow the same as using and condoning hate speech, and making ad hominem attacks directed at the entire community, then you've completely exceeded my capacity to mock your analytical faculties. The mods originally wanted to allow dialogue on the topic. Intrigue was merely PART of that dialogue as a member of the community. The thread died because the dialogue/vitriol ratio went completely insane.
I guess you can look at it that way. Makes a lot of sense, thanks.
I still would have preffered him to refrain from making personal comments in the way he did. You can get a point accross without ridiculing your opponent.
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Fionn hit it perfect- Destiny? Racial Slurs? Woah, I never expected this.
The mod trolled him, called the community stupid, Brags about getting him banned, oh right- the sarcasm.....
The whole thread was kept open despite knowing it would be: a witchhunt, horrible retread topic (orb), flamefest
The change in rules so that the ban would actively hurt Destiny finacially.
Those are pretty much my issues with it. There is this vague idea in my head that the Destiny thread and the orb thread encourage retaliation actions from the mob. An action if not supported seemingly condoned by TL staff.
An incongruous relationship for a website that promotes Esports.
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On May 03 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
Fionn hit it perfect- Destiny? Racial Slurs? Woah, I never expected this.
The mod trolled him, called the community stupid, Brags about getting him banned, oh right- the sarcasm.....
The whole thread was kept open despite knowing it would be: a witchhunt, horrible retread topic (orb), flamefest
The change in rules so that the ban would actively hurt Destiny finacially.
Those are pretty much my issues with it. There is this vague idea in my head that the Destiny thread and the orb thread encourage retaliation actions from the mob. An action if not supported seemingly condoned by TL staff.
An incongruous relationship for a website that promotes Esports.
Somehow I get the impression that we didn't read the same posts. Destiny was the one who called the community stupid. The mod gave a bit of good advice. The thread was kept open in a vain attempt at discussion.
The moderation rules of TL aren't like law. Precedent doesn't mean much, and the rules never said "We won't unfeature a stream to make a point if it's the #1 way to make a ban actually get your attention." Or anything even remotely resembling it.
In fact, if we go with the "Established precedent" logic, the established precedent is that people who use TL for the sole or nearly sole purpose of self-promotion get perma-bans, and never get their stream featured. Should they go with that one instead for Destiny?
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On May 02 2012 10:33 ohampatu wrote:
Some people rage overly bad, especially when they are alone in front of a computer. Just because they get mad, and BM you, possibly even using racist words. Doesn't make them a BM Racist in real life. And doesn't mean they should be lynched. Orb as an example, already had a reputation of being a great caster, and was up and coming, and we knew he was good at what he did and didn't BM/Racist/Do bad shit during his casts. Yet we chose randomly to lynch him for his ladder rage and set him back in his career by many months id imagine. Now Destiny is the same way, in the moment of the loss, he rages, and the pitchforks are brought out. I'm not saying either Orb or Destiny are in the right, but they shouldn't be judged based off Rage at the end of a match. It doesn't make them BM, and doesn't make them Racist.
It looks like you're trying to justify racist comments. Your justification is that
(X) people have free speech and should be able to say whatever they want
( ) they are just words
(X) context matters
( ) everyone says racist things to some extent
( ) you're not REALLY a racist, it's just a joke and everyone should lighten up
( ) there is some kernel of truth to stereotypes
( ) others being offended is not your problem, nor your fault
( ) black people use the word nigger, so white people can too
and therefore this is not a big deal. You're wrong. Here's why you're wrong.
(One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have
too many other flaws to list here because your augment holds water like a wet paper bag.)
Specifically, you are too self-centered to understand that
( ) there is a difference between rights and duties. You have a right to be a
racist fuck, but you also have a duty to not be a racist fuck.
(X) I also have free speech and agency. I can react by being offended and
calling out your asshole behavior.
( ) words can offend people. Offending a group of people for something they
cannot change (e.g. race and sexual orientation) is not nice.
( ) people have had those racist words thrown at them previously in their life.
It's possible they have suffered physical harm while hearing those racist
words.
( ) just because some people are racist doesn't make it okay.
(X) the context is that your racism is an asshole move and insults a class of people.
Context matters for the person listening just as much.
( ) you're not making racial humor. You're not Dave Chapelle. It's racist.
He knows where the line is for acceptable humor, you apparently do not.
(X) asking someone to lighten up when they've been called that name and been
physically, economically, or emotionally hurt when the word was thrown
around isn't funny to them. There's a reason they're offended.
( ) being an asshole to an entire class of people due to stereotypes encourages
racist behavior for those that do not deserve it. Often times these
stereotypes exist due to economic or cultural reasons -- that doesn't
make it nice.
( ) offending others means they will fight back.
( ) offending others is your fault. It's your choice to offend them, but it's
also their choice to be an asshole back to you.
( ) black people can use the word nigger and gay people can use the word fag
because it is a reclaiming of an offensive word. It is an attempt to remove
the sting from the word. You have no right to use it because you're not
removing the sting, you're piling it on.
and the following philosophical objections may also apply:
( ) There is a difference between saying Cracker and Nigger. One has a history
that sparks up racial hate that exists to this day. Calling someone a
cracker does not bring up the topic of systematic racism.
( ) It's not a valid argument to justify racism because other people do it.
That includes your accuser. Ad-hominem attacks don't work past 4th grade.
( ) This is not the fun police, you can offend people and be an asshole, but racism
is not nice. The difference is you are not only offending any single target
-- you are offending a whole class of people.
(X) You are communicating in a broadcast medium, other viewers/observers can be
offended.
(X) If you have a right to be an asshole, I also have a right to take action.
( ) You are not Rosa Parks fighting for majority rights.
( ) There's a difference between offending someone and offending a whole class
of people. The Merry Pranksters are fun, racism is not.
( ) You need to empathize more with others, please check with your therapist on
whether you have Aspergers.
( ) A slippery slope argument doesn't work. It's fairly obvious that calling
someone nigger or fag is not okay. We can argue about hypotheticals all day
but we are discussing a specific clear-cut example.
( ) From a utilitarian perspective, using racist remarks hurts business.
( ) Please read up on the "Invisible Backpack", your privilege is leaking out.
( ) You are not showing THE MAN, you just come off as an ignorant, provincial
jackass.
( ) Living in a society where everyone is an asshole to everyone else is no fun.
Furthermore, this is what I think about you:
(X) Sorry dude, you should try to empathize with others more.
( ) You are an asshole, please GTFO.
( ) Fuck off, I hope you say that shit in public and get shot.
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On May 03 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
Fionn hit it perfect- Destiny? Racial Slurs? Woah, I never expected this.
The mod trolled him, called the community stupid, Brags about getting him banned, oh right- the sarcasm.....
The whole thread was kept open despite knowing it would be: a witchhunt, horrible retread topic (orb), flamefest
The change in rules so that the ban would actively hurt Destiny finacially.
Those are pretty much my issues with it. There is this vague idea in my head that the Destiny thread and the orb thread encourage retaliation actions from the mob. An action if not supported seemingly condoned by TL staff.
An incongruous relationship for a website that promotes Esports.
rofl only thing the mod did was be condescending. Destiny called him a faggot, a stupid cunt and went on about TL on his twitter. Destiny is butthurt right now that he is seeing consequences for his actions.
He will understand that just because he streams to bunch of people doesn't mean he gets to run around posting like a retard. I am glad atleast one community is teaching him a lesson.
You should see Reddit threads he started, opens it on stream so his legions of kid fans can go upvote. 99% of them are pure troll posts. Nobody can do anything about it there but i am glad he can pull the same shit over here.
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It is petty Jingle. Why is Destiny so special they have to change up the ban process? Because it is well known he makes his living through live streaming. Lets get after that to teach him a lesson. PETTY.
What discussion is there?There is a screenshot, and an angry mob. Hell there are numerous bans and warnings in the first couple pages from people begging for it to be closed. What they thought they'd figure out racism in a Destiny yelled at me thread?
+ Show Spoiler +while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions?
Comes into the convo swinging. The community is out of its mind and straight up stupid by the end. BS apologies are not a good idea, bad advice. How did that help orb? how is his job doing? Then he says destiny has terrible replies. The tone is not helpful but condescending. I guess he trying to stop a witchhunt, but they already left the thread open and knew what was gonna happen.
Should they go with that one instead for Destiny?
Why not? Thousands of viewers probably use TL to access his stream, got that nice banner and shit. IF they want to take the hit, i'm just saying how it played out Destiny was trapped (had to defend himself, and Destiny lol is not good at tact), then attacked extra cause he makes his living off SC2. It don't seem right.
Sole purpose of self-promotion huh? give me a break it is a two way street. Destiny probably gets more viewers for being featured. The resource of having Destiny as a featured streamer probably brings more people to Teamliquid. He is in the community, on shows, in articles, on stream, he coaches, and he posts or he wouldn't have been banned right?
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On May 03 2012 07:42 Rebel_lion wrote:It is petty Jingle. Why is Destiny so special they have to change up the ban process? Because it is well known he makes his living through live streaming. Lets get after that to teach him a lesson. PETTY. What discussion is there?There is a screenshot, and an angry mob. Hell there are numerous bans and warnings in the first couple pages from people begging for it to be closed. What they thought they'd figure out racism in a Destiny yelled at me thread? + Show Spoiler +while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions? Comes into the convo swinging. The community is out of its mind and straight up stupid by the end. BS apologies are not a good idea, bad advice. How did that help orb? how is his job doing? Then he says destiny has terrible replies. The tone is not helpful but condescending. I guess he trying to stop a witchhunt, but they already left the thread open and knew what was gonna happen. Should they go with that one instead for Destiny? Why not? Thousands of viewers probably use TL to access his stream, got that nice banner and shit. IF they want to take the hit, i'm just saying how it played out Destiny was trapped (had to defend himself, and Destiny lol is not good at tact), then attacked extra cause he makes his living off SC2. It don't seem right. Sole purpose of self-promotion huh? give me a break it is a two way street. Destiny probably gets more viewers for being featured. The resource of having Destiny as a featured streamer probably brings more people to Teamliquid. He is in the community, on shows, in articles, on stream, he coaches, and he posts or he wouldn't have been banned right?
you call what happened to destiny a witch-hunt, but you like all the others seem to have got it in your mind that somehow intrigue is the witch.
this isn't reddit. Destiny was not banned because popular opinion went against him in that thread (although that should be a wakeup call.) he was banned because of his attitude to posters and mods. this has now been talked to death twice.
TL has long had a 'you don't use this site for your own advertising' policy:
this is it
and that's what destiny has been doing.
the mods turned a blind eye because it wasn't a problem, now he's not even being respectful to the site, why should he have the privilege of being listed as a streamer here?
he didn't HAVE to defend himself. there were plenty of people in the thread defending him. And he wasn't banned for defending his actions (although his actions do run contrary to pretty much every code of conduct of this site).
the long and the short of it is that if the mods wanted to they could justify permabanning him 10 times over. or they could permaban him and not justify themselves to anyone.
or they could give him a 30 day slap on the wrist. and if you don't think it's a slap on the wrist, PM to intrigue that you think he's a faggot and we'll see how he responds to that.
you're a 2009 user? wtf.
EDIT, i need to get out of this thread before i post something that gets me banned. 
i just can't believe that people could have a problem with how the mods have handled this. the amount of effort people go through to laud the guy spewing racist stupidity and vilify the mods who have built this community astounds me.
goodnight!
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On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really been a part of TL. Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.On May 03 2012 04:06 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:52 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban.
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted.
The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did.
“Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa
The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him.
You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice.
To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated.
Thank you. I don't think that's why the mods ban, i think bans are to punish. banning for the 'benefit of the community' sounds like a sticky bit of business. for example flame wars like that thread could be considered to be for the good of the community if what you're looking for is post counts, activity and advertising views. Banning any user is almost always bad for the community, because you might put them off sc2 and they might not watch streams and give revenue and... i hope you see my point. the only consistent way to moderate (and that's what you're after) is to punish bad behaviour destiny stepped out of line (way out) and the mods needed to punish him. Banning his account isn't a punishment, so unlist his stream. I think that the mods would like to keep streams listed where possible, but that shouldn't override the need to moderate bad posting. i think that the mods do what they can to 'benefit the community' so long as it doesn't interfere with their need to moderate the forums. i think you're wrong to take the precedent of idra remaining listed as a rule that over-rides all else. Flame wars are never good for the community. Sure they attract attention and get pageloads, but so do the drama threads, memes, and pitchfork hunts on Reddit. The health of the community is more important than the popularity. If 13 year old faggot-chanting CoD player gets banned from TL, great! He would have put off the rest of us, just as Destiny did.
Banning his account is a punishment, otherwise why would they ban it? Destiny is very fond of talking, as shown in that thread, and shutting him up is hardly a blessing (to him). What the mods believe is that merely banning his account for 30 days isn't enough, and so banned his stream as well. Why not just ban his account even longer? He certainly deserves that.
I'm not taking Idra's banning as a "rule that over-rides all else", that quote is directly from his ban reason. There is no other rule. I would be entirely okay with TL unfeaturing him for their own reasons, such as excessive profanity on stream, stupid behavior on stream, conduct unbecoming on stream - but notice this is all stream related. Forum conduct, in my opinion, should not effect stream status, simply because the two aren't related. Destiny wasn't going through the thread on stream, verbally calling everyone retarded autists.
On May 03 2012 04:46 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:52 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban.
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted.
The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did.
“Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa
The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him.
You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice.
To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated.
Thank you. DharmaTurtle all you do is defend Destiny here and on Reddit. Give it rest guy! Mods explained banning his stream will teach him a lesson as he uses this site just for that. Banning IdrA's account made sense because he uses this website to post more. The point is to teach them a lesson about not acting like a retard. Also these two scenarios are different. IdrA is a old forum goer and his set of circumstances were different. Stop comparing the two just because both of them insulted a mod. TL doesn't owe you anything and try taking some sense into Destiny and ask him to act like an adult instead of spamming forums on his behalf. TL mods were more than tolerant of Destiny's behavior for a long time. They banned Orb's stream for using n-word before very quickly. They are correct in de-featuring Destiny's stream for 30 days. I say it should be permanent. If you read my posts, you'll notice that my very first sentence is "I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream." I am hardly a Destiny white night - I disagree with many of the things he does.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does.
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On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that?
On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does.
You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf.
Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods.
Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns.
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On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:
Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not.
This is directly counter to the moderation staff's only previous statement on the matter of stream featuring, which Dharma has already quoted and you have yet to respond to. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
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Are you guys that dense? Rules do not exist for rules sake.
Let me spell it out to you what's probably going on. Pros operate on different rules becuase they affect the community in a different way. If a no-name gets banned, you can just start a new stream and build up your reputation from scratch in a new name. No big deal. The penalty of a permban fits. A pro player can't do that, as building up their reputation from scratch is impossible (their face is known, so eluding the permban is undermining the decision). For that reason, a permban is unjust and they get more leeway, as any penalty will hit them harder anyway.
If you fuckfaces can't figure shit out, let me spell it out even more clear. TL was fairly obvious that they didn't say anything about Destiny's stream being unfeatured/unlisted for a long time. They can say this is to "discuss" things, but I've seen this stuff enough that I know what's really going on. They're expecting Destiny to apologize for his obviously fucked up behavior.
A quick apology lets all sides to look good and gives an opportunity for all sides to give the impression that they're doing this with full agency and participation. Delaying the decision is a gift to Destiny, if anything at all -- it keeps him from looking craven by apologizing after economic damages occur. Unfortunately, he did not take the opportunity so now we're left with an awkward situation where TL cannot look bad by giving him justification to continue his behavior. It'd take some serious illogical gymnastics to not understand that the social expectation is that after 30 days, Destiny is welcome back on stream and will not overtly be as racist (more than likely a "I'm going to be sort-of racist and hate on TL to save face" will happen and be looked the other way). That's farily obvious on how things will play out.
Let's be clear, Destiny shouldn't be a racist or homophobe on stream, and TL is well within the right to take action. I think the fundamental disagreement here is whether Destiny has any agency in avoiding the TL decision to ban him for 30 days, it's fairly obvious he had a good window of time to work things out.
Now obviously, I am putting words in TL admins/mods' mouth, but I think I am abosultely correct here, as this is how things tend to play out in any community, online or not.
Look, I'm a really big fan of Destiny. I really hope this situation will let him understand others' perspectives. I'm fairly certain if he avoided any racist comments from the beginning, he'd be getting invitations to cast games left and right. He'd be tripping himself over invitations to fly all over the world to talk -- continuing this behavior hurts him more than anything else, and I'm perfectly willing to blow all my social capital with Destiny to push him along as a fan.
User was warned for this post
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On May 03 2012 10:41 haileris wrote:
Look, I'm a really big fan of Destiny. I really hope this situation will let him understand others' perspectives. I'm fairly certain if he avoided any racist comments from the beginning, he'd be getting invitations to cast games left and right. He'd be tripping himself over invitations to fly all over the world to talk -- continuing this behavior hurts him more than anything else, and I'm perfectly willing to blow all my social capital with Destiny to push him along as a fan.
That's a pretty fair viewpoint.
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On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns.
My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I.
Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem?
I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure...
And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\
@haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego...
Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
Captain Haiku's summary of the situation:
A knight has fallen
Defending right to say gook
ESPORTS is ruined
**
I do think Intrigue's posts were perfect in that thread, seeing as Destiny was trying to cast himself as some shining knight for free speech and the right to offend. Derision is the best way to deal with something like that.
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Canada11303 Posts
One further thing I might throw in here is that while people backing mod actions is appreciated, I'm a little uncomfortable of how often 'this is our house' get's thrown around. It is our first commandment, but I don't think that's the first rule to throw back at someone giving website feedback. Even if ultimately that's what it comes down to.
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On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods.
Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then?
What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream.
He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you.
It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income.
Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know.
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On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know.
Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason.
You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do.
Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)?
Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware.
TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people.
PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS
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On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS
I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream.
Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him.
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On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him.
Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok?
Incontrol who is against foul language, has the picture "im incontrol bitch" when his stream is offline, bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it?
Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?.
Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting.
Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge.
I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do.
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On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do.
Right. IdrA and Incontrol, definitely in the same category of contributions as Destiny. Not quite. But hey, ignore the key part there.
I find it vaguely ironic you tell me not to censor other people's language, when merely uttering that phrase constitutes raw, unadultered hypocrisy. You're trying to censor what you perceive as an attempt at censorship. If Destiny has a "right" to be offensive, there's certainly no room to complain about people's reactions to what he says.
Aside from that, I won't waste effort on a rebuttal to all the words you put in my mouth.
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On May 03 2012 23:49 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Right. IdrA and Incontrol, definitely in the same category of contributions as Destiny. Not quite. But hey, ignore the key part there. I find it vaguely ironic you tell me not to censor other people's language, when merely uttering that phrase constitutes raw, unadultered hypocrisy. You're trying to censor what you perceive as an attempt at censorship. If Destiny has a "right" to be offensive, there's certainly no room to complain about people's reactions to what he says. Aside from that, I won't waste effort on a rebuttal to all the words you put in my mouth.
Well I still dont judge how accepted insults should be after how big contribution they do in other case to the community. Destiny raced 32k dollars for doctors without borders, I think thats the biggest contribtuion the starcraft community has ever gotten. The goodwill for such things are immense. Especially from the scene outside of starcraft which people keeps talking about all the time.
Your second part is just strange. I havn't said you can't write that you think destiny is wrong etc, go ahead do it. Removing his stream and banning him is censoring. Saying that you think his language is foul-mouth and that you think people shouldn't watch him aint censoring. Saying a person is wrong is not censoring. Censoring is to supress someone from speaking.
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On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do.
Frankly, this type of logic is just childish. You're exaggerating and stretching analogies way too far. The world is not black and white. Some words are stronger than others. Some words are more hurtful than others. Some insults cross the line. Some don't. Society, or in this case, TL mods, decides and it is a common naive view of young people that they are somehow above and beyond societal norms.
Contrary to what is taught in school, words are very powerful. People whose occupations make them public personalities are held to a higher standard. What Destiny said in his stream is unacceptable for any public figure to say. He chose an occupation that puts him in the same league as reality TV stars, athletes, entertainers and other media types.
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On May 03 2012 23:57 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Frankly, this type of logic is just childish. You're exaggerating and stretching analogies way too far. The world is not black and white. Some words are stronger than others. Some words are more hurtful than others. Some insults cross the line. Some don't. Society, or in this case, TL mods, decides and it is a common naive view of young people that they are somehow above and beyond societal norms. Contrary to what is taught in school, words are very powerful. People whose occupations make them public personalities are held to a higher standard. What Destiny said in his stream is unacceptable for any public figure to say. He chose an occupation that puts him in the same league as reality TV stars, athletes, entertainers and other media types.
Well in 29 and work for the state with a lot of contact with the public. I agree with you, but what adults also know is that anyh punishments must be fair and based on the same standards. And you cant punish some and let other pass on a whim.
And your believes about words are not a fact. Destiny seldom use the language he uses on his stream outside of it. Trying to prevent people to use words "society" dosn't like is a trait strong in some countries. The strange things these countries usually don't ahve less racism, crime or anything else.
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On May 03 2012 23:55 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:49 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Right. IdrA and Incontrol, definitely in the same category of contributions as Destiny. Not quite. But hey, ignore the key part there. I find it vaguely ironic you tell me not to censor other people's language, when merely uttering that phrase constitutes raw, unadultered hypocrisy. You're trying to censor what you perceive as an attempt at censorship. If Destiny has a "right" to be offensive, there's certainly no room to complain about people's reactions to what he says. Aside from that, I won't waste effort on a rebuttal to all the words you put in my mouth. Well I still dont judge how accepted insults should be after how big contribution they do in other case to the community. Destiny raced 32k dollars for doctors without borders, I think thats the biggest contribtuion the starcraft community has ever gotten. The goodwill for such things are immense. Especially from the scene outside of starcraft which people keeps talking about all the time. Your second part is just strange. I havn't said you can't write that you think destiny is wrong etc, go ahead do it. Removing his stream and banning him is censoring. Saying that you think his language is foul-mouth and that you think people shouldn't watch him aint censoring. Saying a person is wrong is not censoring. Censoring is to supress someone from speaking.
Ah but you told ME not to censor him. You told me not to listen to him. I didn't ban him, I didn't de-feature his stream. Therefore, I didn't censor him.
However, here's the thing you're not seeing. If Destiny has this mystical "right" to say whatever the fuck he wants on his stream, then certainly the TL mods have the SAME mystical right to NOT feature his stream at their discretion. Why? we call it the real world.
Is it fair? Not really, but that also is the real world. Totally unfair.
Also, Destiny raised some money. Who gives a shit? Does that make it ok to do anything you want, as long as you donate some money? Is that why the Holocaust was bad, because Hitler wasn't donating enough to charity? Yeah, that's right, I just brought Hitler into it. Why? Because your argument is so flimsy it doesn't DESERVE better than that to make the point.
On May 04 2012 00:02 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:57 andrewlt wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Frankly, this type of logic is just childish. You're exaggerating and stretching analogies way too far. The world is not black and white. Some words are stronger than others. Some words are more hurtful than others. Some insults cross the line. Some don't. Society, or in this case, TL mods, decides and it is a common naive view of young people that they are somehow above and beyond societal norms. Contrary to what is taught in school, words are very powerful. People whose occupations make them public personalities are held to a higher standard. What Destiny said in his stream is unacceptable for any public figure to say. He chose an occupation that puts him in the same league as reality TV stars, athletes, entertainers and other media types. Well in 29 and work for the state with a lot of contact with the public. I agree with you, but what adults also know is that anyh punishments must be fair and based on the same standards. And you cant punish some and let other pass on a whim. And your believes about words are not a fact. Destiny seldom use the language he uses on his stream outside of it. Trying to prevent people to use words "society" dosn't like is a trait strong in some countries. The strange things these countries usually don't ahve less racism, crime or anything else.
How can you say punishments AREN'T on the same standards? Destiny isn't anywhere near the actual community figure IdrA or iNcontrol is.
This isn't the courts, this is TL. The standard is "what makes sense under the circumstances". There's no paid lawyer digging through precedents and making a case where a judge has to be impartial. There's just "what makes sense".
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On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS
I said troll memes and posts IN THAT THREAD not in all threads. Although if i dig up his history i am sure there is bs in there but that's not what we are discussing.
You think they are not being fair, i along with others think it is so what now? I never said you can't complain if you think TL is being unfair, go right ahead and provide your reasons. I am just providing my reasons on why i think it's fair.
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On May 04 2012 00:02 ahtf wrote:
Well in 29 and work for the state with a lot of contact with the public. I agree with you, but what adults also know is that anyh punishments must be fair and based on the same standards. And you cant punish some and let other pass on a whim.
And your believes about words are not a fact. Destiny seldom use the language he uses on his stream outside of it. Trying to prevent people to use words "society" dosn't like is a trait strong in some countries. The strange things these countries usually don't ahve less racism, crime or anything else.
I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to understand.
Destiny uses racial terms on his stream and defends it as his right and says words should not be censored, etc. He doesn't use them in public because he knows it's bad for business as society will castrate him. He is not standing up for his cause in public but only does it on his stream. What he and you need to understand that his stream is not his personal little stream anymore. TL manages it for him and he makes money off of it. If he doesn't follow their rules then he can expect to be taken off their page. He can continue to stream and yelling "HUE HUE HUE HUE n-word, etc". Simple business decision from both sides.
If i let you stay at my place and you start taking a dump everywhere in my house then i have the right to kick you out. I don't have a problem with you taking a dump but if you do it while in my house, you are gone. You can go on the street and freely shit yourself like it's going out of style.
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On May 04 2012 00:02 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:57 andrewlt wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Frankly, this type of logic is just childish. You're exaggerating and stretching analogies way too far. The world is not black and white. Some words are stronger than others. Some words are more hurtful than others. Some insults cross the line. Some don't. Society, or in this case, TL mods, decides and it is a common naive view of young people that they are somehow above and beyond societal norms. Contrary to what is taught in school, words are very powerful. People whose occupations make them public personalities are held to a higher standard. What Destiny said in his stream is unacceptable for any public figure to say. He chose an occupation that puts him in the same league as reality TV stars, athletes, entertainers and other media types. Well in 29 and work for the state with a lot of contact with the public. I agree with you, but what adults also know is that anyh punishments must be fair and based on the same standards. And you cant punish some and let other pass on a whim. And your believes about words are not a fact. Destiny seldom use the language he uses on his stream outside of it. Trying to prevent people to use words "society" dosn't like is a trait strong in some countries. The strange things these countries usually don't ahve less racism, crime or anything else.
You're 29? Really? I pegged you at around 16-18.
The mods discussed what to do among themselves. They exchanged different viewpoints to reach their decision. All you're doing is inserting your own judgment call on what is fair or not in exchange for theirs. What is fair to you is your whim. Your criteria for same standards are also your own.
And funny that you bring up countries and cultures. I thought Europe was ahead of the US in the current legal trend to judge things on a case by case basis instead of using one size fits all rule of law.
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About the defeaturing his stream thing:
Being a featured stream on TL isn't a right. It's a privilege shown to people that TL wants to support or highlight. If you're going to throw around claims like "you're taking away the income of a father who relies on his stream to make money [paraphrased]" you should at least see it from the other point of view. If it is important to Destiny to be featured on TL, maybe he should behave better towards those that are effectively providing him with his income. (This is a terrible analogy, but): If I'm a freelance artist and someone commissions my work for a large sum of money and I'm committing tons of time towards it, I'm sure as hell gonna respect them and try my best to do a good job so that I can keep making solid income. TL owes Destiny nothing - they're a private site, their stream list is subject to whatever regulations they see fit. Being featured is not entirely objective, and it never will be. There's no statistic you have to pass to get featured, no laws you have to follow - it is at the sole discretion of the people in power (who generally do a good, fair job).
And yeah, because someone might mention it, this benefits me. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I'm more popular than Destiny or that it benefits TL more to have me featured over him. However, I have contributed a decent amount to TL over the years, I have made friends with countless longtime community members, veterans, and have generally been a good member of teamliquid. Is this the sole reason they feature me? Obviously not, I have some merit, but again, I'm not gonna pretend that having me featured is high on TL's priorities. All I'm trying to really say is that TL has no duty to anyone as a private entity, and their logic and justice is generally very carefully considered and quite sound.
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On May 04 2012 00:02 ahtf wrote:
Well in 29 and work for the state with a lot of contact with the public. I agree with you, but what adults also know is that anyh punishments must be fair and based on the same standards. And you cant punish some and let other pass on a whim.
And your believes about words are not a fact. Destiny seldom use the language he uses on his stream outside of it. Trying to prevent people to use words "society" dosn't like is a trait strong in some countries. The strange things these countries usually don't ahve less racism, crime or anything else.
Let's make one thing clear before I continue, Teamliquid has no legal obligation. I'm going to be talking exclusively about an ethical obligation to link to distasteful speech.
If you genuinely work for the state with an understanding of legal jurisprudence, Teamliquid.net's stream directory isn't a "common carrier" and therefore has no ethical obligation to carry streams it finds distasteful. It's nowhere near close to being defined as a carrier, let alone ethically a common carrier, as they do not carry the speech itself. You can make a hamhanded argument that twitch.tv or own3d.tv has an ethical obligations to do their best to adhere to common carrier values within the context of popular vs. unpopular speech (as Twitter does adhere to voluntarily), but there is no basis in the ethical foundations of common law where directory services are common carriers (such as the curated Twitter directory, when it still existsed, which did not include people who advocated unpopular ideas).
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On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: [quote] A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements.
That is like saying when a police officer taunt you into a fight with him, he's not acting as an officer, but a citizen. Yet he is totally justified when the police station cover it up and put the guy in jail.
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On May 03 2012 23:49 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Right. IdrA and Incontrol, definitely in the same category of contributions as Destiny. Not quite. But hey, ignore the key part there. I find it vaguely ironic you tell me not to censor other people's language, when merely uttering that phrase constitutes raw, unadultered hypocrisy. You're trying to censor what you perceive as an attempt at censorship. If Destiny has a "right" to be offensive, there's certainly no room to complain about people's reactions to what he says. Aside from that, I won't waste effort on a rebuttal to all the words you put in my mouth.
Really? I actually doubt who is the supporter of racist speech and hate speech here.
At least I believe destiny should be banned on forum for calling someone faggot, be that a mod or not. What you are saying, however, is that we call allow pros to say bitch or retard because they contributed more to your perception of esports. Why the fuck does esport matter so much that it can act as a "get out free" card on these behaviors now?
Those term should not be welcomed on tl no matter who says it.
In fact, if this is what people want for esports, then fuck it, let it crash and burn.
I'm proud to say that i support the scene by watch streams, watch tournament and buy season passes, not by being an asshole who wrote to sponsors and destroy one of the few people who can make a living purely depending on sc2.
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On May 04 2012 19:33 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:
[quote]
So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf?
/snark
TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did.
The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans.
Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements. That is like saying when a police officer taunt you into a fight with him, he's not acting as an officer, but a citizen. Yet he is totally justified when the police station cover it up and put the guy in jail.
Uhm, technically, in your grossly inept analogy, if all the cop does is say stuff, and you assault him, you DID break the law.
It's horrendously different, though. Mods here are volunteers, enforcing a set of priveleges, where police are paid by the taxpayers, to enforce the law to protect a set of RIGHTS.
On May 04 2012 19:50 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:49 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Right. IdrA and Incontrol, definitely in the same category of contributions as Destiny. Not quite. But hey, ignore the key part there. I find it vaguely ironic you tell me not to censor other people's language, when merely uttering that phrase constitutes raw, unadultered hypocrisy. You're trying to censor what you perceive as an attempt at censorship. If Destiny has a "right" to be offensive, there's certainly no room to complain about people's reactions to what he says. Aside from that, I won't waste effort on a rebuttal to all the words you put in my mouth. Really? I actually doubt who is the supporter of racist speech and hate speech here. At least I believe destiny should be banned on forum for calling someone faggot, be that a mod or not. What you are saying, however, is that we call allow pros to say bitch or retard because they contributed more to your perception of esports. Why the fuck does esport matter so much that it can act as a "get out free" card on these behaviors now? Those term should not be welcomed on tl no matter who says it. In fact, if this is what people want for esports, then fuck it, let it crash and burn. I'm proud to say that i support the scene by watch streams, watch tournament and buy season passes, not by being an asshole who wrote to sponsors and destroy one of the few people who can make a living purely depending on sc2.
Since you're just trying to use semantics to discredit something you don't agree with, I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time explaining the difference between hate speech and insults. I'm sure you understand.
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On May 04 2012 19:33 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:
[quote]
So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf?
/snark
TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did.
The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans.
Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements. That is like saying when a police officer taunt you into a fight with him, he's not acting as an officer, but a citizen. Yet he is totally justified when the police station cover it up and put the guy in jail.
Provocation isn't a viable defense really, bad analogy. Otherwise where would the line be drawn, someone had a differing opinion and was slightly aggressive about it so you were justified in reacting too harshly?
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Well that was everything you all could of wished for. So now the question becomes: Who faces this bloodthirsty mob next? An interesting thought, imagine day9 drops something offensive (I know its Hard). I think TL would break in half over the issue.
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On May 05 2012 03:07 Rebel_lion wrote:
Well that was everything you all could of wished for. So now the question becomes: Who faces this bloodthirsty mob next? An interesting thought, imagine day9 drops something offensive (I know its Hard). I think TL would break in half over the issue.
I think Day[9] is at least mature enough to apologize if he realizes he offended people severely. Makes a helluva difference.
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On May 05 2012 03:07 Rebel_lion wrote:
Well that was everything you all could of wished for. So now the question becomes: Who faces this bloodthirsty mob next? An interesting thought, imagine day9 drops something offensive (I know its Hard). I think TL would break in half over the issue.
I don't get this argument. Do you think Day9 would not apologize and would defend his atitude and right to say offensive words? This situation blew up because of Destiny's opinion that it's completelly fine to act as he does and because he acted like an asshole in the thread. If someone like Day9 makes a mistake the world won't explode, he will say he is sorry and reasonable people will let it go. It's only an issue if it happens constantly or the person doesn't acknowledge it as an issue.
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On May 05 2012 03:21 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:07 Rebel_lion wrote:
Well that was everything you all could of wished for. So now the question becomes: Who faces this bloodthirsty mob next? An interesting thought, imagine day9 drops something offensive (I know its Hard). I think TL would break in half over the issue.
I don't get this argument. Do you think Day9 would not apologize and defend his atitude and right to say offensive words? This situation blew up because of Destiny's opinion that it's completelly fine to act as he does and because he acted like an asshole in the thread. If someone like Day9 makes a mistake the world won't explode, he will say he is sorry and reasonable people will let it go. It's only an issue if it happens constantly or the person doesn't acknowledge it as an issue.
Yeah, seriously, remember how bad Day[9] felt about accidentally ruining Christmas? We'd probably get Day[9] daily number oh fuck I'm sorry if he said something racist. It would be 3 sections, long, of him playing SC2, apologizing over and over again, and writing "I'm sorry" in pylons 100 times or something...
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Do apologies stop letters sent? What if people come with screenshots from 2009 brood war of some other offensive shit. Its like orb all over. Destiny couldn't of driven the rabid off with an apology. Orb tried.. to little effect.
The more you swear your not something the more people will assume that you are. Red scare, witchhunt.
I agree day9 would make it right, but he is the mad prophet of starcraft, i think i'd be ok with almost anything Day did.
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On May 05 2012 04:00 Rebel_lion wrote:
Do apologies stop letters sent? What if people come with screenshots from 2009 brood war of some other offensive shit. Its like orb all over. Destiny couldn't of driven the rabid off with an apology. Orb tried.. to little effect.
The more you swear your not something the more people will assume that you are. Red scare, witchhunt.
I agree day9 would make it right, but he is the mad prophet of starcraft, i think i'd be ok with almost anything Day did.
It's highly unlikely we would have been in this exact spot if Desiny didn't do stuff like this constantly and/or if his first reaction was to say "I'm sorry, I made a mistake in a heated moment and will try to improve myself in the future". But then it wouldn't be Destiny. It's not the first time people complain about him, it's just the first time it really exploded. Also, Orb didn't really try. He denied for quite some time, made some people even more angry and apologized after it had already made it's damage. Plus he already had a reputation for raging.
If any other player with a clean record did the same, maybe some people would overreact as well, but a quick apology and some PR management would make it a lot less extreme than this case. I doubt they would get banned and temporarily unfeatured for a single incident and more people would be on their side.
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On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. I've already addressed this - do I really need to explain every detail? I didn't talk about Orb because he was banned for stream behavior, and rightly so! Idra and Destiny were banned for forum behavior, a different matter entirely. Let me repeat myself, since I doubt you'll look up to see what I said: "I would be entirely okay with TL unfeaturing him for their own reasons, such as excessive profanity on stream, stupid behavior on stream, conduct unbecoming on stream - but notice this is all stream related. Forum conduct, in my opinion, should not effect stream status, simply because the two aren't related."
I'm not questioning TL's rules/independence... see the above statement.
"He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread." Wow... just... facepalm.
Of course I'm biased... show me someone who isn't biased towards Destiny and I'll show you someone who's never watched him before. But my bias stems from the fact that I'm a fan, not a mod. If I lost my modship, I would be a fan regardless.
"[you] post mostly about Destiny..." Are you really going to bring that up again, Mister I-Made-An-Account-Just-To-Talk-About-Destiny? Let me quote myself: My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I.
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"I appreciate the support to those who've been supportive, I really do, but this issue isn't worth fighting over, no more racial slurs for me"
Oh finally. That's the end of that, no more of this brain-numbing drama. Moving on, moving on, scooch scooch. I hope the TL admins are making progress internally
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My opinion on the moderation of this site is that people get warned or banned for having an opinion contrary to that of the moderator. I'm sure this isn't the case with all the mods on this site but there are DEFINITELY, beyond any tiny shred of doubt in my mind, moderators on this site who warn and ban because people have different opinions to their own. I'm not talking about my own warnings here but I see so many "User was warned/banned for this post" where I read it and think "Why? Because he had a different opinion....?"
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On May 05 2012 22:46 Otak wrote:
My opinion on the moderation of this site is that people get warned or banned for having an opinion contrary to that of the moderator. I'm sure this isn't the case with all the mods on this site but there are DEFINITELY, beyond any tiny shred of doubt in my mind, moderators on this site who warn and ban because people have different opinions to their own. I'm not talking about my own warnings here but I see so many "User was warned/banned for this post" where I read it and think "Why? Because he had a different opinion....?"
To know why someone was banned, you can always check the Automated Ban List.
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On May 05 2012 22:46 Otak wrote:
My opinion on the moderation of this site is that people get warned or banned for having an opinion contrary to that of the moderator. I'm sure this isn't the case with all the mods on this site but there are DEFINITELY, beyond any tiny shred of doubt in my mind, moderators on this site who warn and ban because people have different opinions to their own. I'm not talking about my own warnings here but I see so many "User was warned/banned for this post" where I read it and think "Why? Because he had a different opinion....?"
So very wrong >_>
The moderation here is actually very lenient, if you aren't a jackass about it.
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Australia8532 Posts
On May 05 2012 22:46 Otak wrote:
My opinion on the moderation of this site is that people get warned or banned for having an opinion contrary to that of the moderator. I'm sure this isn't the case with all the mods on this site but there are DEFINITELY, beyond any tiny shred of doubt in my mind, moderators on this site who warn and ban because people have different opinions to their own. I'm not talking about my own warnings here but I see so many "User was warned/banned for this post" where I read it and think "Why? Because he had a different opinion....?"
Provide an example of this; especially beyond a rare outlier because your tone implies an ongoing trend for certain moderators and in my time on this site i cannot think of more than 1 or 2 ban reasons i found to be odd or unjustified.
Not only is your claim unfounded you provide no argument.
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On May 03 2012 18:44 Falling wrote:
One further thing I might throw in here is that while people backing mod actions is appreciated, I'm a little uncomfortable of how often 'this is our house' get's thrown around. It is our first commandment, but I don't think that's the first rule to throw back at someone giving website feedback. Even if ultimately that's what it comes down to.
Hey Guys, first post here. I joined specifically to give feedback to this thread.
First i agree a lot with what Falling wrote above; in the feedback section, that should NOT be the response that is received. If that is the response that is given, why is there a feedback area in the first place?
Second, i wanted to say that I think the OP made this thread with good intentions. Like him, i also would like to see TL not only survive, but THRIVE. However like the OP, i am seriously starting to question visiting these forums the same as I do the BATTLE.NET forums. They are both becoming hate-filled cesspools of bandwaggoners, ready to lynch anyone/anything at the drop of a hat. I see many strategy threads of people posting builds that have worked for them through Diamond+, and people bash them to no end. This kind of behavior is not, and should not be accepted. So what, the build is viewed as 'Cheese'; the OP took the time to detail his build and thoughts for everyone else to see and utilize, there should be nothing but thank you's and/or constructive criticism, not all out hate and bashing the OP. This does not reflect well on the TL community as a whole.
And, finally, what all of this means is that people like myself, and the OP will no longer find TL as a useful and reputable source of information, and eventually that means less eyeballs on TL.
It hurts TL to continue like this because I can assure you, we are not the only two who feel this way. And please don't respond to this with 'It's Our House'; if you do, you are most likely part of the problem then.
EDIT: Also, are we done talking about Destiny yet? This thread should not be about him, but about the moderating styles used towards that thread, etc. back on topic pls..
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United States8476 Posts
On May 08 2012 00:56 SMILOOON wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 18:44 Falling wrote:
One further thing I might throw in here is that while people backing mod actions is appreciated, I'm a little uncomfortable of how often 'this is our house' get's thrown around. It is our first commandment, but I don't think that's the first rule to throw back at someone giving website feedback. Even if ultimately that's what it comes down to. Hey Guys, first post here. I joined specifically to give feedback to this thread. First i agree a lot with what Falling wrote above; in the feedback section, that should NOT be the response that is received. If that is the response that is given, why is there a feedback area in the first place? Second, i wanted to say that I think the OP made this thread with good intentions. Like him, i also would like to see TL not only survive, but THRIVE. However like the OP, i am seriously starting to question visiting these forums the same as I do the BATTLE.NET forums. They are both becoming hate-filled cesspools of bandwaggoners, ready to lynch anyone/anything at the drop of a hat. I see many strategy threads of people posting builds that have worked for them through Diamond+, and people bash them to no end. This kind of behavior is not, and should not be accepted. So what, the build is viewed as 'Cheese'; the OP took the time to detail his build and thoughts for everyone else to see and utilize, there should be nothing but thank you's and/or constructive criticism, not all out hate and bashing the OP. This does not reflect well on the TL community as a whole. And, finally, what all of this means is that people like myself, and the OP will no longer find TL as a useful and reputable source of information, and eventually that means less eyeballs on TL. It hurts TL to continue like this because I can assure you, we are not the only two who feel this way. And please don't respond to this with 'It's Our House'; if you do, you are most likely part of the problem then. EDIT: Also, are we done talking about Destiny yet? This thread should not be about him, but about the moderating styles used towards that thread, etc. back on topic pls..
The "becoming hate-filled cesspools of bandwaggoners" are mostly people who don't frequent TL very often and only came to comment on Destiny. You can see that the most problematic people in the Destiny threads are people with very low post counts.
As for the strategy section, it has standards. There are lower level strats that are allowed to be open if they're well written and reasonably well thought out such as: this or this. The ones that are bashed are the ones that are poorly written/thought out or they're criticized for their flaws and the OP gets extremely defensive about it.
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NrgMonk, to be honest, i didn't even bother reading the Destiny thread. I basically assumed it was just the same regurgitation of crap that already happened before with him. I was just referring to posts in general in a lot of the threads I have actually read. I have been a lurker since around the sc2 beta days, and only in the ~5 months it seems like the forums are becoming very.. Toxic. Lots and lots of hate and BM over pretty much nothing.... Maybe its due to the increased population size because eSports is growing? I don't know, i'm just making observations as someone who reads a lot here, but doesn't post much.
And, I am glad you posted the link to one of Hammer's threads because it is a perfect example of what I am trying to illustrate. From reading the thread, there were FAR more people straight up insulting him about his league/how he has shitty macro/etc/etc/whatever than there were actually contributing ideas to making the build BETTER. I dont even think the Geiko 3rax thread got this much hate :-P
Just one nugget of a super-duper-mega-awesome helpful comment:
"The problem is that even in the lower leagues, it relies on you being significantly better than your opponent to pull this off. And it's completely not viable at Master league level"
What if the person I quoted didn't post useless crap like that and actually tried the build and found what he could improve?
So, while I agree that his guide was a bit lacking in areas, and his videos are a bit light on specifics sometimes, people need to give constructive criticism and stop being so dismissive and rude. By encouraging strategies like this and improving them, we are only helping ourselves evolve the meta-game to open up other possibilities...
And, I do understand the challenge the Mods are up against when it comes to keeping the Strategy forum in check from various duplicate and useless threads, I just wish that the community was not so incendiary and dismissive over things "THEY KNOW JUST CANNOT WORK".
I think the definition of insanity is trying the same thing.. but expecting different results, right? Well if we keep trying the same crap in SC2, we get the same damn results!!!!!!!
edit: damnit... ^^^
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In that case, im not sure you understand exactly what kind of atmosphere TL promotes when you complain about the "THIS IS OUR HOUSE" rule. Because all the things you want to see from this site are exactly the kinds of things they ban for without any real reason all in the name of spring cleaning. it's a simple statement people take way too seriously just to make sure you know that even if you didnt break any of these rules, that doesn't mean you're not an asshole and you're not going to get banned.
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PLEASE STOP DERAILING MY THREAD
THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT DESTINY.
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About my original complaints:
Mods: Im still seeing balance complaints like crazy. Why is it now standard for any thread to have some type of statement about 'so and so race is op', or 'lets be honest 6 gates is op and lategame tvp is a joke'. Its like if enough people complain you guys just go ahead let it become 'standard'. Its just like 'the sad zealot' from 6 months ago, your letting balance become a part of the community when it shouldn't be.
The community: Were not getting any better still. We are nothing but a lynchmob. We seem to love being tattle-tales and complaining to sponsors. And our strategy forum (and every other thread) is filled with countless balance complaints. Im ready to give up on us. Too many people from reddit and b.net pages have migrated to tl I guess.
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Id like to see the mods create a rule like this:
For 1 month, adopt a zero tolerance rule on any balance complaint
For 1 month, any poster (regardless if its me or some other noob complaining or jinro doing one of his epic complaints about protoss) who breaks this rule is insta banned for 1 week. The punishment doubles everytime they 're-break' the rule when the ban is lifted
I understand the game is not balanced, but it not being balance has absolutely no effect on the running/cohesion of this website. During the beta (i have been on this site since beta patch 13) if a person complained about FF they got banned. Now its acceptable to call it op for some reason. Same with calling 6 gates op. Same with calling infestor/brood op. Im positive if TL adopted a zero tolerance rule the strategy forum could become usefull.
And i could finally read a main TL article without seeing so many balance and racial complaints. We as a community love to go overboard and try to ruin people lives (email sponosors, etc). If the community feels it can use this type of power and abuse it, why not try and bring the bad posters more in line with an iron fist?
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Sorry for a triple post, but i also had another question.
How many mods are their on TL currently? How many were on TL 6 months before the actual release of SC2?
If the first number isn't almost double the second thats prolly partially what could be contributing to TL becoming so toxic. I actually visit reddit more than TL these last few weeks especially. Even the pitchforks/lynchmob posts on reddit are less toxic than here.
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Australia8532 Posts
On May 09 2012 09:11 ohampatu wrote:
PLEASE STOP DERAILING MY THREAD
THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT DESTINY.
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About my original complaints:
Mods: Im still seeing balance complaints like crazy. Why is it now standard for any thread to have some type of statement about 'so and so race is op', or 'lets be honest 6 gates is op and lategame tvp is a joke'. Its like if enough people complain you guys just go ahead let it become 'standard'. Its just like 'the sad zealot' from 6 months ago, your letting balance become a part of the community when it shouldn't be.
The community: Were not getting any better still. We are nothing but a lynchmob. We seem to love being tattle-tales and complaining to sponsors. And our strategy forum (and every other thread) is filled with countless balance complaints. Im ready to give up on us. Too many people from reddit and b.net pages have migrated to tl I guess.
My brain literally hurts when you say things like it's become a "standard" and that there is some sort of conscious decision to allow balance whine if too many people are doing it. You obviously have ZERO idea how the moderation on this website works. They are people, with lives and commitments, do you expect them to catch EVERY SINGLE balance whine? If you have such an issue with it, which you clearly do, instead of wasting your time posting about it, send a PM to a moderator with the post and a link and i am sure you will get a response.
The moderation standard on this site has not changed; if anything over time it has become infinitely more stringent. The strategy forum in particular has had many reforms and action taken by dedicated moderators such as:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210370
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208101
Instead of whining about things; look to help solve the problem!
The staff roster can be found here
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/TeamLiquid.net_Staff
As to the number before the release of SC2 i do not know.
As for this:
Even the pitchforks/lynchmob posts on reddit are less toxic than here
Everyone is free to an opinion, but yours is a bit warped and seems like it is borne out of frustration. But at the end of the day, go enjoy reddit and the b.net forums
edit: there is also a little "edit" button on the top right of your post allowing you to edit your post so you don't have to make 3 separate posts
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Wall of text incoming:
You are right. My posting is coming out of frustration, but isn't yours? Your post seems to be nothing but frustration and negativity towards me. Please don't use 3 posts of mine (that are actually in the correct forum) to make assumptions. I haven't been spamming this thread or any other thread at all. I honestly don't expect the issues that are arising to get fixed, but i love the community enough that I am at least going to try and make a thread before I end up giving up completely. I have been apart of 3 'internet communities'. The 2 that aren't TL no longer exist, and essentially killed themselves for many of the reasons I'm complaining about.
You tell me to stop whining, Im posting issues concerning the website/how the website is ran in the correct place. That is what the point of this thread is for correct? Its actually concerning to me that your brain hurts because Im posting feedback in a forum meant for feedback.
In Lie of you mentioning the strategy forum. Your strategy forum is still filled with balance. Id love if you would tell NRGMonk to spend half the time he does deleting un-needed threads to read the ones that are needed, so as to keep them clean. Please dont take this as something against NRGMonk. He is the only person in this thread who hasn't flamed me. I love his strats, and he does a great job. I just see more feel like threads worth reading aren't moderated enough. Maybe lower the rate at which new members get the report button? I can spam report and PM's all you want, but honestly, if 3 posts of mine in this thread made you mad, seeing me spam PM's of people breaking the rules would make your brain explode instead of just hurt.
I appreciate the links you gave me, they help with me affiliating my self with TL's members/rules. So thank you. The reason I didn't edit my posts, is because they weren't all related, and were like 8 minutes apart. If that was incorrect I apologize.
Im sorry if my opinion is warped in your eyes. But honestly everybody's opinion is warped in another's eyes. I know this sounds blunt/mean, but really what you said to me does too and there's not a nicer way of me replying to you. Sorry I dont want to go reddit and b.net, im trying to stop TL from becoming the shit hole that those 2 websites are.
Open up the 'closed' thread and 'auto-ban' thread, take note of what people are being banned for, what types of threads are being closed. Then go spend the next 15-20 minutes in the General and Strategy guidelines. You will understand what I mean, and if you dont, i'll be happy to spend 15-20 minutes and forward you the 50+ instances I can find. I dont expect every balance whine to get addressed. But itd be nice if there was an effort. The community takes turns deciding what is currently op/up, and the mods seem to go along with it. The Sad Zealot. Terran Vs 6 Gate. Siege tanks Vs Toss, i can go on and on about posts I've read today that didn't even get a warning.
As a non member of your moderation staff, 'whining' in the feedback thread does help solve the issue, or it should, since that's what this forum is meant for. If people aren't doing their jobs, or their are too many jobs and not enough people, this forum would show that if it was used correctly.
I use this website for roughly 6-8 hours aday, so yes I care, and yes I get frustrated. I dont want it to die like the last 2 communities I was involved in. But if I'm gonna get flamed by moderators for actually following the rules and posting feedback and called a whiner; then im prolly running in circles.
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Canada11303 Posts
Huh. Good thoughts here, but yeah, please use edit rather than triple posting.
I'm pretty sure balance whine is auto 2 day temp in a live report thread. And if they persist, their history plays a role in increasing the harshness until we get to perm. We do hope that we can get posters learn from their mistakes rather than blasting them a 1 week ban for their first error.
Do you have a report button? Because mods can't be everywhere at once and particularly something like SC2 Strategy is going to be a little more niche for moderator competency. I've played SC2 maybe 3 times in the last year so I'm not going to be browsing Strats for fun and will rely on reports. Furthermore, unless it's a clear cut case of balance whine, flaming, or low content, I'm probably going to leave it to someone that actually plays SC2. For that reason, it's very good we have NrGmonk amongst our ranks now.
Maybe lower the rate at which new members get the report button? I can spam report and PM's all you want, but honestly, if 3 posts of mine in this thread made you mad, seeing me spam PM's of people breaking the rules would make your brain explode instead of just hurt.
Are new members getting report buttons slower? If anything we are starting to get flooded with people that use reports to complain about annoying people rather than actual rules broken. However, if you see rules broken, report them. It's the easiest way for us to deal with them.
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United States8476 Posts
I warn/ban people for balance whines in LR threads, but Strategy Forums are a bit more difficult to deal with. Many times you have to let there be some form of balance whining when you discuss strategy. To quote some recent examples, how it can be harder to defend maxed roaches than execute maxed roaches or how late game TvP is perceived as difficult. Mild balance complaints like this are fine in context. I do look at balance whining, but I only moderate it in the strategy forums only if it's either blatant or doesn't contribute to the discuss. Perhaps you have examples of bad posts that went unmoderated?
Also, personally I though the Sad Zealot Club was pretty cute.
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On May 09 2012 12:45 NrGmonk wrote:
I warn/ban people for balance whines in LR threads, but Strategy Forums are a bit more difficult to deal with. Many times you have to let there be some form of balance whining when you discuss strategy. To quote some recent examples, how it can be harder to defend maxed roaches than execute maxed roaches or how late game TvP is perceived as difficult. Mild balance complaints like this are fine in context. I do look at balance whining, but I only moderate it in the strategy forums only if it's either blatant or doesn't contribute to the discuss. Perhaps you have examples of bad posts that went unmoderated?
Also, personally I though the Sad Zealot Club was pretty cute.
It was hilariously cute, it just seemed to open up alot of sideways 'protoss up' quotes. Hearing your thoughts behind it make it quite a bit better, as now I get how/what/why your doing it. Knowing that those 'sideways/mild' ways of balance complaints are overlooked at times makes it easier, cause i was assuming they just weren't seen or nobody cared. If your away of them and keeping an eye on them, and just being lenient then thats all I can ask of ya
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us protoss players like to cause strife i guess 
i appreciate the time you guys have taken reading my walls of text, i think everything i needed/wanted/asked for was addressed
thanks alot, maybe i complain too much, for a long time i was only ever in the LR threads, so maybe i got babied with how strong you guys monitor that lol
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Zurich15315 Posts
If that has really become worse then I guess it's time to get out the warhammer and clean the strat forum once more. I am currently a bit restricted though since I don't have many posts left before my 10k. After that I will be more active I promise.
But generally, as has been pointed out here, non of the issues you make out are in any way tolerated by the mod staff. And, as far as I can tell you have a mod report button. If you really find that many balance complaints then be part of the solution.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 09 2012 12:45 NrGmonk wrote:
I warn/ban people for balance whines in LR threads, but Strategy Forums are a bit more difficult to deal with. Many times you have to let there be some form of balance whining when you discuss strategy. To quote some recent examples, how it can be harder to defend maxed roaches than execute maxed roaches or how late game TvP is perceived as difficult. Mild balance complaints like this are fine in context. I do look at balance whining, but I only moderate it in the strategy forums only if it's either blatant or doesn't contribute to the discuss. Perhaps you have examples of bad posts that went unmoderated?
Also, personally I though the Sad Zealot Club was pretty cute.
Very much agree with this. It is difficult to strike a fruitful middle ground between balance whine and acknowledging that somethings are just difficult for a race to do. Although some of the PvT/TvP threads of late have been tending towards the 'balance whine' end of the spectrum.
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On May 09 2012 17:53 zatic wrote:
If that has really become worse then I guess it's time to get out the warhammer and clean the strat forum once more. I am currently a bit restricted though since I don't have many posts left before my 10k. After that I will be more active I promise.
But generally, as has been pointed out here, non of the issues you make out are in any way tolerated by the mod staff. And, as far as I can tell you have a mod report button. If you really find that many balance complaints then be part of the solution.
Hahah, like all good moderation, constrained by arbitrary personal decisions.
(Don't worry, I've been guilty of exactly the same before on a forum I mod on)
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To whoever says the mods are fair...don't delude yourself. Are they maybe doing the best they can? Sure, probably for most of them, who knows. Either way, they are unconsciously biased or selective enforcing their rules.
Go read any thread in the strategy section, particularly "TheMista's anti-stephano roach thread" (or whatever its called). People get warned for suggesting specific and legitimate faults in the build - which Morrow himself comes in and echos a few pages later! TheMista even admits that some of the faults are valid....Morrow gets no warning, but the people who were correct before him do? Wow...favoritism? I have no idea.
Its not a big deal honestly, but I got warned for pointing this out on the very thread that it was happening. Some of the mods should take a good hard look at their actions and ask if they really need to warn some of these posters...Sure the assholes out there, the nasty ppl., and perhaps even myself occasionally, need to be warned...but the bias is very unprofessional.
I still can't for the life of me understand why the people on the first page of that thread were warned, after reading the forum rules AGAIN (which were cited in my warning message - as if I had not read them)...Whatever, still a great site, but they told me to go to feedback and this seemed the most relevant post to add to regarding my criticisms. I understand life isn't fair and this isn't a democracy...but it is unprofessional, a bit hypocritical, and pretty pathetic.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 17 2012 02:11 hillman wrote:
To whoever says the mods are fair...don't delude yourself. Are they maybe doing the best they can? Sure, probably for most of them, who knows. Either way, they are unconsciously biased or selective enforcing their rules.
Go read any thread in the strategy section, particularly "TheMista's anti-stephano roach thread" (or whatever its called). People get warned for suggesting specific and legitimate faults in the build - which Morrow himself comes in and echos a few pages later! TheMista even admits that some of the faults are valid....Morrow gets no warning, but the people who were correct before him do? Wow...favoritism? I have no idea.
Its not a big deal honestly, but I got warned for pointing this out on the very thread that it was happening. Some of the mods should take a good hard look at their actions and ask if they really need to warn some of these posters...Sure the assholes out there, the nasty ppl., and perhaps even myself occasionally, need to be warned...but the bias is very unprofessional.
I still can't for the life of me understand why the people on the first page of that thread were warned, after reading the forum rules AGAIN (which were cited in my warning message - as if I had not read them)...Whatever, still a great site, but they told me to go to feedback and this seemed the most relevant post to add to regarding my criticisms. I understand life isn't fair and this isn't a democracy...but it is unprofessional, a bit hypocritical, and pretty pathetic.
First of all, website feedback is always welcome, but your language is particularly harsh and won't elicit the best response from moderators. To make it clear, you were warned solely for posting your feedback in the wrong section as well as your abrasive way of phrasing it.
Although I didn't personally administrate most of the warnings, I stand behind them. about 50% of the warnings in that thread were for posting one-liners without fully understanding the build. Most of them say, "lol mutas auto win" when they don't understand that Mista never claims that it's a solid build; he solely markets it as a blind stephano style roach max counter. My further thoughts on this can be found here. Yes, Mista could have done a better job of explaining it, but it still doesn't excuse the massive amounts of one-liners. After all, Rule No 1 in the Strategy Forum Guidelines is that everything must be backed up by evidence.
The other 50% of warnings was for miscellaneous things such as going off topic, posting stuff like "+20", and this little gem from someone that needlessly bashes the build, doesn't understand the build, and makes useless comments that don't contribute.
And yes, there is favoritism on TL towards professional players and respected posters. This is not a secret. Check the ten commandments, particularly Rule #6. Also look at this quote from the current strategy forum guidelines:
That said, there are already people much more qualified to talk about strategy than others. You will see their posts in this forum highlighted with a darkish blue background. Statements by these individuals will be weighted differently than had they be posted by complete unknowns. Thus, the less reputation you have the more you need to back up your claims as described further up (Note however that this does not excuse outrageous claims by a good player – in the end everything will need proof).
Morrow did not get warned, but if you look at most of the posts that were warned, they made one line criticisms without backing up their claims while Morrow explained his thought process with many many more lines than most people did. His only fault was not understand the purpose of the build, which can be slightly blamed on Mista not explaining it as best he could, but at least he tried, put effort into the most, and backed it up.
TheMista is also a professional player and we want to encourage professional posting on the forums, so we care much more if he posts than random poster #12822. Grubby puts it really well in this post:
On May 14 2012 19:40 Grubby wrote:
(In my opinion), there is nothing wrong with a guy who has actual experience playing Europe's GM Zergs, who posts a build that has worked on occasion (even if it's only on occasion!), who tries to offer general help. It's easy to poke holes in builds or call it bad because of your opinion of how the game should be played, but also irrelevant to actual results. Sure, this is not an all-purpose build, but then again no build is. I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative.
If someone posted a Diamond build without replays, then okay I get it. But he's beaten Stephano. Sure, it's only ladder, but it's something. I want to be one element of grateful reception at least. Thanks for posting this thread Mista ^^
Your other criticism was that there were much worse things said in other guides by non pro-players such as in Tang's guides.Yes, I agree that this is a valid criticism, but what you don't know is that previously the strategy forums weren't being moderated very heavily at all, with the vast majority of it coming from reports by regular forum members and not by moderators combing through threads. About 3 weeks ago, I was brought on to specifically monitor those forums, checking everything much more closely. A few other moderators have begun looking more closely at the strategy forums as well in the last week or two. The supposed inconsistency in moderation was mostly not brought out by favoritism, but by lack of staffing.
In addition, we are aware of current problems in the strategy forums and have begun discussing them in length over the past week. In fact, there will be a major strategy forum restructuring/reform coming VERY soon. The mass amount of warnings in that thread were a precursor to the revamp that will be released and with the release, there will be much less inconsistency and many more warnings and bans. I suggest you hold further criticism till you see the new rules come out and then judge.
For more comments about the strategy forum, check other mod quotes in this very thread.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On May 17 2012 02:11 hillman wrote:
To whoever says the mods are fair...don't delude yourself. Are they maybe doing the best they can? Sure, probably for most of them, who knows. Either way, they are unconsciously biased or selective enforcing their rules.
Go read any thread in the strategy section, particularly "TheMista's anti-stephano roach thread" (or whatever its called). People get warned for suggesting specific and legitimate faults in the build - which Morrow himself comes in and echos a few pages later! TheMista even admits that some of the faults are valid....Morrow gets no warning, but the people who were correct before him do? Wow...favoritism? I have no idea.
Its not a big deal honestly, but I got warned for pointing this out on the very thread that it was happening. Some of the mods should take a good hard look at their actions and ask if they really need to warn some of these posters...Sure the assholes out there, the nasty ppl., and perhaps even myself occasionally, need to be warned...but the bias is very unprofessional.
I still can't for the life of me understand why the people on the first page of that thread were warned, after reading the forum rules AGAIN (which were cited in my warning message - as if I had not read them)...Whatever, still a great site, but they told me to go to feedback and this seemed the most relevant post to add to regarding my criticisms. I understand life isn't fair and this isn't a democracy...but it is unprofessional, a bit hypocritical, and pretty pathetic.
If you think you found a hole in a posted guide, describe your findings and why you think the guide is weak there. It makes your point incredibly more believable if you post a replay along. Also don't be lazy: Make a suggestion on how to adapt the guide to address your criticism. This is how the best guides that stand the test of time are created.
This is posted in the strategy forum guidelines. The people who got warnings in the first page were not all that constructive
-"Looks like a rly late 2 base all in that is going to die vs muta play"
-"So you're counting on the zerg not pincering with overlords to scout? Looks beyond gimicky =\ no way in hell you should need the 10 gates unless you're banking ofc which you shouldn't be since you won't be maxxing out."
-etc
And it is well known that pro players (i.e. Morrow) get more leniency for their posts on TL because they don't need to explain their thought processes to everyone all the time. There's a difference between a relatively unknown player saying a build/guide sucks without evidence and a pro player the build has holes because he has faced it before and took advantage of them.
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EPT
associated with it had a number of balance whines to follow. I think somewhere along the line the hard line that zatic and saracen took has become a little less stringent. I feel that if the balance whine adds nothing to the discussion the user should be met with at least a warning and persistent whining with strong moderation.
