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In Light Of The Destiny Situation: Id like to bring up some points that I've been contemplating creating a thread about. I may not be following the proper areas of notification but since I'm bring up multiple subjects at one, this will have to do. Ban/Delete/Do w/e you want if I am breaking rules. This will encompass multiple things, namely me imploring the community to stop with the pitchforks and balance complaint, as well as Mod's actions in Destiny Thread and in generally last few months. I joined in the beat of SC2 and TL back then was about 10x better than today.
A. Moderators:
The Favoritism really needs to stop. A forum should not have any kind of favoritism. If a Blue Poster says something worthy of being banned, he should be banned. He should not be allowed free-bees. The first major thing that ever pissed me off was me getting temp banned for saying something (it was against the forum rules) and then Jinro and two other terran players flaming me/breaking forum rules/balance complaining all in 1 post without a single warning given out. The destiny thread is a perfect example of this: I posted how upset I was with the pitchfork mentality and the degradation of the thread stating it should be closed, i get warned. The dude who said that he wished destiny would die, no action taken from any mod. Out of all the people who said the thread should be closed near where i posted, half of us were banned if that. We all posted the same thing and were on the same page even at times. Come on guys. I mean, I posted a 2-3 paragraph post and get banned when 2 people under me said the same thing in less/more abrasive terms? Id rather be pissed at you guys for being 'too good' at moderating or too strict then the bullshit that is happening currently. Less Favoritism, More Consistency.
If Moderators banned a Terran every time he brought up how impossible it was to hold a Protoss 6 gate, or how broken the game was late game in Protoss favor. Or banned that Protoss player bitching about infestor/brood. Or banned that Zerg for his '2 base Protoss is OP' complaints. Do that for a month, the strategy forums will become usefull again. Im not saying we can't discuss 'Beating 7 gate Blink with Obs and +2', just people get away with just saying things like "lets all face it, protoss lategame is op", and that's a sentence that is generally found on the first page of a GSL thread, without any action taken. People shouldn't get away with saying that. Currently Moderators ignore it, skip over it, and seemingly implore imbalance themselves at times.
Banning Destiny. This made me laugh when I saw that. Collectively as a Group you banned him when he himself didn't break a single rule in that thread. You stated he 'repeated' he wouldn't stop as the rule. His language was as bad as the other peoples in that thread, and yes he repeated himself. He was defending himself and had to repeat the same thing to multiple differnet people and you expect him to sit back and take it while you let a thread stay open that was dedicated to everybody saying 'fuck destiny'. He defied you by saying he wouldn't stop, so why not remove his stream? His forum account didn't break any rules. Or do you make up rules on the spot since you want to punish him but removing the site (where he is breaking your 'rules') would stop people from coming to TL? Unless he broke a forum rule in the thread I don't get banning him. This just seems like TL is trying to make it seem like they are 'doing something' so make the community happy, a saving face move. Or he just made you unhappy i guess.
B. Community
Yes. This is actually to address the community at large, for the mistakes that 'You All Make, I Make, He Makes, and She Makes'. We as a community lately have been sucking. Very much. First, we need to stop our bashing. Our Caster Bashing, Our Player Bashing, Our Tourney Bashing, etc. We have just become one giant lynch mob, and I don't get it. We are going out of our way to potentially cause major issues to people's life. We are taking the 'rage moments' when a person loses and trying to use that to justify ruining a persons career, calling them rasicst, among other things. Some people rage overly bad, especially when they are alone in front of a computer. Just because they get mad, and BM you, possibly even using racist words. Doesn't make them a BM Racist in real life. And doesn't mean they should be lynched. Orb as an example, already had a reputation of being a great caster, and was up and coming, and we knew he was good at what he did and didn't BM/Racist/Do bad shit during his casts. Yet we chose randomly to lynch him for his ladder rage and set him back in his career by many months id imagine. Now Destiny is the same way, in the moment of the loss, he rages, and the pitchforks are brought out. I'm not saying either Orb or Destiny are in the right, but they shouldn't be judged based off Rage at the end of a match. It doesn't make them BM, and doesn't make them Racist.
Now apart from us needing to slow down on how fast were grabbing the pitchforks. We also need to take note of the best way to go about 'retribution' for want of a better word. In both of the situations I'm using as examples so far, Orb and Destiny, fans have emailed the sponsors. This is not a correct step, I understand the reasoning behind why you would, but this can 'hurt esports' in the long run. The reason I say this is because going to the Sponsors can cause 2 issues: Sponsors will lose interest in SC2 if they receive thousands of letters every time a player makes a mistake. Sponsors getting angry causes teams to over punish to make the sponsor happy. We also need to realize that these players don't represent their team/sponsor 24/7. They are representing themselves at times on occasion, it may not be often, but it does happen. They are allowed to be human. Just because I work a salary job at an IT place, doesn't mean my company is gonna get angry that i went drinking on my day off and had a 1 night stand. Any issues with a player/caster associated with a Team, should always be taken up with the Team first, if the Team cannot or will not fix the situation (sometimes its not a situation either), then go to the Sponsors. Sponsors should be last imo.
Last, but not least. Balance. We can help the Mods out here guys. Balance is something we know should only be discussed in certain places. I get as mad at Marauders as the next guy, but I don't make a thread about it every time I lose. We don't even seem to be trying anymore. I know it doesn't help that the 'forums' as a whole seems to swing back and forth between whats considered op and up. But we could stop fishing for posts with all the 1 liner balance posts that crop up, especially under TL Articles.
These are just a few things I really felt needed throwing out there. I honestly don't know if there's a discussion to be had about the points Ive brought up. I just feel that the points Ive mentioned could really really help make the forums/community as whole function better.
Or you may all disagree with me and hate me for typing all this up and delete this and ban me. If you do, that's fine, no hard feelings. I just visit TL less than i visit Reddit now, and that scares me, and I want it to change. I want to come here for more than just head articles/streams. I haven't been as dedicated to a game before in my whole life and TL is really what started that and what kept the passion alive for me.
~Shane
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This thread isnt meant for this forum. The mods are fair and the community is fine. Ignore posts you don't like and you'll be fine.
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The forum does give preference to veterans over new-comers. While it may not be egalitarian, it is not revolutionary either: Many institutions in the world use a similar hierarchy and system. It is simply to reward those who have been a part of the forums and have contributed for many years over a new member whose intentions towards the forum may not as well be known.
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There is an entire, over 1000 page thread for this, and yet you post it here.
You don't like the rules?
Make your own website and mod it how you want.
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Website feedback is located at the bottom left part of the site.
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United States22154 Posts
moved to website feedback
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I essentially agree, but TL can run its community how it wants.
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United States5162 Posts
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you.
That says everything that needs to be said about your first point.
And I agree with your second point.
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Sorry I thought I had clicked on Website Feedback.
For people saying the post is useless, that's what website feedback is for correct? i just wanted the 'community' to the see part sent for it as well and didn't want to make more than one thread
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On May 02 2012 10:40 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you. That says everything that needs to be said about your first point. And I agree with your second point.
All im making is a suggestion, which is what they state in that post. I agree they are the 'baus' of the site. Just trying to give some feedback is all.
I joined/started lurking on TL back in Beta Patch 13. I miss the old days
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I agree Completely with this, and I imagine that most newer posters have this same experience. However since Team-liquid is such a great sight and the moderators do such a great job otherwise this is the way it will have to be. unless someone makes another sight just as good and imposes different moderators it is unlikely to happen, and I am pretty much okay with that.
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Destiny called a moderator a faggot. I am pretty confident that's against the rules! Why do you think it isn't?
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On May 02 2012 10:46 huameng wrote:
Destiny called a moderator a faggot. I am pretty confident that's against the rules! Why do you think it isn't?
Orb and Destiny were mentioned just as examples for their recentness. I also tried to read every post Destiny made in that thread, and at least from my conclusion, he used the same language used against him back at his attackers. If he did call a mod a faggot by all means ban him, but say 'were banning you for calling a mod a faggot'. Which is what they didn't do.
All in all i dont want this to be about Destiny. I will erase that whole paragraph if that's what people think this is about. I wanted this to be a general complaint about certain things mods and we as a community were making.
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United States8476 Posts
I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators.
1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie.
See:6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on.
I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts.
- A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported.
2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out.
3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865
These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately.
And last but not least:
THIS IS OUR HOUSE
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On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:
THIS IS OUR HOUSE
That's really the only thing I was going to mention. TeamLiquid isn't public property.
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On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators. 1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie. See: Show nested quote +6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on. I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts. - A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported. 2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out. 3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately. And last but not least: THIS IS OUR HOUSE
interesting what you say about only responding to reports, would it be helpful then for us (those of us with the report buttons) to report posts similar to those that have been banned?
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On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators. 1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie. See: Show nested quote +6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on. I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts. - A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported. 2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out. 3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately. And last but not least: THIS IS OUR HOUSE
Thank You for the detailed response. 1 and 2 make perfect sense. I just meant that sometimes, seeing a blue poster say the exact same thing as the person right above, and only 1 getting banned, hurts our feelings. I understand the report function may cause alot of this though. That initially escaped my mind. So that covers 1 and 2's qualms.
I'll be honest, the destiny one was just thrown in as an afterthought (which is why above i mentioned deleting it). It in its own didn't' have an impact on the two paragraphs above it, was merely added due to my confusion. To the 'This is our House' motto: Tis a great motto, just remember too much disparity can cause issues, no new people will join if it becomes so noticeable that being new has downfalls and older people have perks. This also leads to people fishing count posts i find.
I appreciate your responses. They are as good as your protoss guides if I remember correctly 
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is awesome32268 Posts
On May 02 2012 11:27 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 11:04 NrGmonk wrote:I'll respond to your points from a moderator's perspective, but I will only speak for myself and not for all the moderators. 1. Favoritism exists. Blue posters and community members contribute to the community and deserve respect, much more so than some random BMing, balacing whining newbie. See: 6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on. I also don't think you understand how moderation here works. There are 2 ways action can be taken against people or posts. - A moderator is reading a thread and sees something worth warning or banning. He takes action.
- More commonly, a post gets reported and a mod takes a look at the report, determining what action to take.
As for the destiny thread, no moderator had the time to read through the destiny thread, because of the sheer amount of reports coming through, so we only took action against reports. There were over 200 reports coming from that thread alone, more than enough to keep us busy. For me personally, it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes to respond to a report. So if you saw a post that was truly heinous and it didn't get any attention, it was probably because it didn't get reported. 2. As for the strategy forums, no one moderator was previous combing through the forums and reports were the only way that specific forum was moderated. I was specifically brought along to monitor those forums, so they should be a lot better from here on out. 3. This point seems seems the complete opposite of your first point. You say we show favoritism, yet you accuse us of being too harsh on destiny? The reasons he was banned are clearly shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1244#24865These are definitely good reasons to be banned. If you've read any of his posts, you'd know if that he weren't destiny, he probably would have been banned immediately. And last but not least: THIS IS OUR HOUSE Thank You for the detailed response. 1 and 2 make perfect sense. I just meant that sometimes, seeing a blue poster say the exact same thing as the person right above, and only 1 getting banned, hurts our feelings. I understand the report function may cause alot of this though. That initially escaped my mind. So that covers 1 and 2's qualms. I'll be honest, the destiny one was just thrown in as an afterthought (which is why above i mentioned deleting it). It in its own didn't' have an impact on the two paragraphs above it, was merely added due to my confusion. To the 'This is our House' motto: Tis a great motto, just remember too much disparity can cause issues, no new people will join if it becomes so noticeable that being new has downfalls and older people have perks. This also leads to people fishing count posts i find. I appreciate your responses. They are as good as your protoss guides if I remember correctly
I'm sure Monk will answer with his own thoughts, but in case you are interested, here are mine:
Contributions, publicity and history matter.
Contributions, because we want to keep good and useful members with us, since that's how this site came to be, with user contributions. All of the staff started as regular users contributing in some way or another, so we sure as hell are not going to put someone who contributes and helps us for some time at the same level as someone who just comes, demands and/or doesn't follow the rules.
Public figures are hard to manage. For one, they are, well, public. Meaning you know them, know how they look, what they do, etc. We understand when some of them snap sometimes since sometimes they get gang banged by a lot of 1 post users, or people who don't even take the time to read a thread and just want to stir shit up.
History matters as well. Sometimes you see someone get a warned and someone get banned for the same offense. I always try to look at user's mod notes/warns/bans and recent post history when taking action against someone. I don't think I have to explain this one.
Also try not to become a "ban martyr" when typing these kind of threads. It kind of leaves us against the ropes and leave little course of action, as said by Mani here:
On February 03 2011 15:04 Manifesto7 wrote:
Martyrs are simply people who force the moderators hand. If you say "I will get banned for this..." and you don't get banned, you set a precedent. If you do get banned, you are 'showing' how bad the moderation is and going down a hero.
It is a simple device used by simple people.
Also, this post by Hot_Bid may address your post somehow:
On February 03 2011 22:00 Hot_Bid wrote:
I do not think our system creates martyrs. There are plenty of ways to talk about moderation -- just make a Website Feedback thread or PM the Mod who banned you. We almost never ban for making a thread in Website Feedback, even when it's highly critical and even if we believe its unreasonable. So many times people complain about unfair moderation, and I respond "please make a Website Feedback thread and we can discuss it with everyone" and they end up not making it. Why? Because in most situations, the banned user knows who is in the wrong. They know they would look ridiculous when judged by a "neutral" third party.
There is a difference between a Mod incorrectly taking action and a user disagreeing with general site policy. In that case, the Mod isn't wrong to ban you -- you just disagree with how we moderate overall. There are times when bans are reversed or when a Mod misinterprets a post and then apologizes for it after. This doesn't happen often, but it's not insignificant either. However, the vast majority of the time, ban-worthy posts are interpreted 100% correctly.
It's not about not being able to respond -- plenty of banned users respond via PM. It's about them just disagreeing with how TL is run. And that discussion should be public and in a thread like what you're doing here, not in a PM to individual Mods.
You won't get banned for voicing your opinion in a respectful way, extreme cases aside (like justifying racism).
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Canada11218 Posts
NrGmonk has covered this pretty good. I know when logged in, the thread was already 100 pages long and accumulating fast. At that point, you can pretty much only rely on the Report feature and deal with with new posts.
In addition, Destiny definitely benefits from the whole favourtism. Were it some random poster that called a mod or another poster a faggot, I'm pretty sure I'd auto temp ban. But a lone banling isn't going to pull the trigger on a high profile member of the community hence the need for group consensus.
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As I don't think it deseves a thread to ask a question, but this thread seem to be on the topic: Will destiny's stream be unlisted for the duration of his ban, and if so, what is the justification for this, in contrast to idra's ban where his stream was not delisted?
I don't know if this is the right place to ask this question, and I am not assuming that his stream has been unlisted-he might not have listed himself online on TL today as damage control, ect.
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EPT
