EPTA Plea To Mods And We As A Community - Page 4
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
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ahtf
Sweden29 Posts
. That's not calling everyone who things like Destiny an idiot. It's saying a certain behavior is dumb. That's a HUGE distinction. Then, intrigue gives a suggestion of a reasonable, professional way to handle the situation. Don't forget the part where intrigue expresses disappointment in the mentality of Destiny's detractors too. Ok, I will stop posting now because I don´t think we will agree :p I don't think the post from intrigue is any better then destinys responds to it. He says he thinks destinys actions are idiotic, which means he takes a position on the subject He also states that destiny should give a fake apology, which offends destiny. Destinys answer is according to me in the same tone and then both of them spiral away. You will probably not agree, since I think you and I stand differently on insults. I don't rank random insults on the internet as harsher because the are racial slurs or if they are just calling someone idiot. Since that what we are pretty much debating now, I will let it rest. Have a nice day | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On May 03 2012 01:26 ahtf wrote: It seems like i understood everything the first time. Its ok to do shit if you are a pro.. Second part calling a random person racial slurs is for me as insulting as anyone calling me a "foul person". Since racial slurs against someone who clearly ain´t meant as anything racist is to me as insulting as any other insult. Insults is always low, but I don't see the reason why I should take a random racial slur toward me worse then someone calling me a moron or foul person etc. I would actually rank moron or foul person as worse since they seem more adressed to me as a person. welcome to TL! when you created an account you were linked to this thread, reading it will help you understand the TL attitude towards 'pros' (or more specifically community veterans/contributors) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883 calling you foul is insulting to you and may or may not be true. calling you by a racial slur is insulting to every person of that race. | ||
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luvy
Germany27 Posts
Of course he did write a good post at first to which destiny replied kind of harshly. But there was absolutely no need to attack Destiny on a personal level. I understand the difficulty of modding an exploding thread, like in this case, but don't be a fool putting words in the opposing side's mouth, assuming their voice like you're imitating the class nerd on the playground. Especially when you have one of those privileged fancy cutsie avatar icons. It felt very inappropriate and it was not helping the thread at all to come to any constructive conclusion. The banning reasons were absolutly legitimate, but i do not think there is a need to let a thread like this turn into a massive shitstorm the way it did. | ||
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Rebel_lion
United States271 Posts
On May 03 2012 00:52 intrigue wrote: haha he's soooo offended. dishes it out but can't take it! TL mods are usually really nice people, but that doesn't mean we're not going to call it as we see it. it's our house! and you guys are wonderful beloved guests, until you start flinging shit. i don't mean to make light of his alleged emotional pain, but that's butthurt if i've ever seen it If your gonna troll someone why get all hurt and have confrences about pissing into the wind and our house, hoo-rah? You can call it as you see it, because if anybody disagrees they will get banned, de-featured, and whatever else you guys can collectively come up with. It is funny that this is the most positive thread i've ever seen on Idra. Hilarious. I agree that how Destiny derives his income shouldn't be an issue for the moderators to consider, it is also not a reason for him to toe your line. I also agree with the ban, he was way over the line, but that happens when there is 100 pages railroading you into the ground. 30 days...ouch I think the whole situation was a giant over-reaction. the racism, the response, and the action taken. It illustrates that pro players shouldn't involve themselves in this community. Idra, TT1, Destiny, Nony i've seen these guys lose thier shit at people and suffer consequently. No reason to invite that mess. If i were well known, i wouldn't do it. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote: So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Sure, they also dislike the way he expressed his view, but they pretty clearly said it was the venue and means of expressing it. If you're going to assign motives to the staff, that's on YOU. Not them. | ||
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Rebel_lion
United States271 Posts
Namelos you make a very good point. They did change thier rules to be better able to hurt him finacially huh? | ||
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luvy
Germany27 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote: So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. | ||
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Namenlos
Germany96 Posts
So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. Click for slightly relevant pic. | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:21 Namenlos wrote: It is ironic that TL is all about making esport compatible for the masses and financially reliant. Says that everyone should support everything slightly related to esports and then bans someone and hurts him financially who actually makes a living out of sc2. In addition to that he is most successful frist person starcraft streamer by far. So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. Click for slightly relevant pic. He will be fine not being listed for 30 days. | ||
JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:21 Namenlos wrote: It is ironic that TL is all about making esport compatible for the masses and financially reliant. Says that everyone should support everything slightly related to esports and then bans someone and hurts him financially who actually makes a living out of sc2. In addition to that he is most successful frist person starcraft streamer by far. So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. Click for slightly relevant pic. Uhh...you do realize he has a successful stream because he plays LoL a lot and is listed on sites like clgaming.net. Considering the popularity of LoL streamers, it's not surprising that some of them would check out Destiny's stream when he plays with players like Dyrus (pro player on a popular team, easily gets 20k when he streamed on own3d) and phantomlord (ex-pro, high elo). edit: whoops, quoted wrong post. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote: Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
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DharmaTurtle
United States283 Posts
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted. The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did. “Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him. You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice. To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated. Thank you. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:52 DharmaTurtle wrote: Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban. In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted. The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did. “Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him. You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice. To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated. Thank you. I don't think that's why the mods ban, i think bans are to punish. banning for the 'benefit of the community' sounds like a sticky bit of business. for example flame wars like that thread could be considered to be for the good of the community if what you're looking for is post counts, activity and advertising views. Banning any user is almost always bad for the community, because you might put them off sc2 and they might not watch streams and give revenue and... i hope you see my point. the only consistent way to moderate (and that's what you're after) is to punish bad behaviour destiny stepped out of line (way out) and the mods needed to punish him. Banning his account isn't a punishment, so unlist his stream. I think that the mods would like to keep streams listed where possible, but that shouldn't override the need to moderate bad posting. i think that the mods do what they can to 'benefit the community' so long as it doesn't interfere with their need to moderate the forums. i think you're wrong to take the precedent of idra remaining listed as a rule that over-rides all else. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
Consistency would be appreciated. I personally would rather that issues concerning community personalities be handled on a case-by-case basis, where possible i think that the mods do what they can to 'benefit the community' so long as it doesn't interfere with their need to moderate the forums. To add on to this, the TL community is not just the forums. It's also Liquipedia and the streams listed. The staff has a responsibility and a desire towards the good health of the entirety. | ||
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Namenlos
Germany96 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:34 JBright wrote: Uhh...you do realize he has a successful stream because he plays LoL a lot and is listed on sites like clgaming.net. Considering the popularity of LoL streamers, it's not surprising that some of them would check out Destiny's stream when he plays with players like Dyrus (pro player on a popular team, easily gets 20k when he streamed on own3d) and phantomlord (ex-pro, high elo). edit: whoops, quoted wrong post. In my post there is a link, you can browse back a year and you will see that he was the most popular fps sc2 streamer way before his lol time. Thats was the reason I put the link there, as a source if someone doubts that. Well said DharmaTurtle especially the paragraph after the Plexa quote. | ||
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luvy
Germany27 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote: No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. | ||
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