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On May 04 2012 00:02 ahtf wrote:
Well in 29 and work for the state with a lot of contact with the public. I agree with you, but what adults also know is that anyh punishments must be fair and based on the same standards. And you cant punish some and let other pass on a whim.
And your believes about words are not a fact. Destiny seldom use the language he uses on his stream outside of it. Trying to prevent people to use words "society" dosn't like is a trait strong in some countries. The strange things these countries usually don't ahve less racism, crime or anything else.
Let's make one thing clear before I continue, Teamliquid has no legal obligation. I'm going to be talking exclusively about an ethical obligation to link to distasteful speech.
If you genuinely work for the state with an understanding of legal jurisprudence, Teamliquid.net's stream directory isn't a "common carrier" and therefore has no ethical obligation to carry streams it finds distasteful. It's nowhere near close to being defined as a carrier, let alone ethically a common carrier, as they do not carry the speech itself. You can make a hamhanded argument that twitch.tv or own3d.tv has an ethical obligations to do their best to adhere to common carrier values within the context of popular vs. unpopular speech (as Twitter does adhere to voluntarily), but there is no basis in the ethical foundations of common law where directory services are common carriers (such as the curated Twitter directory, when it still existsed, which did not include people who advocated unpopular ideas).
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On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: [quote] A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements.
That is like saying when a police officer taunt you into a fight with him, he's not acting as an officer, but a citizen. Yet he is totally justified when the police station cover it up and put the guy in jail.
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On May 03 2012 23:49 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Right. IdrA and Incontrol, definitely in the same category of contributions as Destiny. Not quite. But hey, ignore the key part there. I find it vaguely ironic you tell me not to censor other people's language, when merely uttering that phrase constitutes raw, unadultered hypocrisy. You're trying to censor what you perceive as an attempt at censorship. If Destiny has a "right" to be offensive, there's certainly no room to complain about people's reactions to what he says. Aside from that, I won't waste effort on a rebuttal to all the words you put in my mouth.
Really? I actually doubt who is the supporter of racist speech and hate speech here.
At least I believe destiny should be banned on forum for calling someone faggot, be that a mod or not. What you are saying, however, is that we call allow pros to say bitch or retard because they contributed more to your perception of esports. Why the fuck does esport matter so much that it can act as a "get out free" card on these behaviors now?
Those term should not be welcomed on tl no matter who says it.
In fact, if this is what people want for esports, then fuck it, let it crash and burn.
I'm proud to say that i support the scene by watch streams, watch tournament and buy season passes, not by being an asshole who wrote to sponsors and destroy one of the few people who can make a living purely depending on sc2.
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On May 04 2012 19:33 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:
[quote]
So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf?
/snark
TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did.
The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans.
Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements. That is like saying when a police officer taunt you into a fight with him, he's not acting as an officer, but a citizen. Yet he is totally justified when the police station cover it up and put the guy in jail.
Uhm, technically, in your grossly inept analogy, if all the cop does is say stuff, and you assault him, you DID break the law.
It's horrendously different, though. Mods here are volunteers, enforcing a set of priveleges, where police are paid by the taxpayers, to enforce the law to protect a set of RIGHTS.
On May 04 2012 19:50 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:49 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 ahtf wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 23:21 ahtf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. Because we probably didn't care about orb enough to discuss it. Everyone has their bar to reach before they find it worth discussing something on the internet. And orb didn't reach mine, and probably several other of destinys fans who has the same reason. You say he dosn´t use his tl account, and follow that up with that destiny has posted trolls and memes etc for a long time. Does he use his account or not? Or do you mean he does it outside of TL. If TL has decided to take a moral stand on all streamers and ban etc for what they say outside of tl or on their streams the admins will have alot of work to do. Your third point: Yes tl is a privat organization who can do what ever they want within the law, does that somehow remove the right from us users/customers to critize and try to get a complete answer from them. If a company whatever it is don't deliver a product im satisfied with I will complain, for example ending of mass effect 3. Why should I hold TL to a different standard then any other privat organization(bioware)? Before someone post "then leave" etc, this issue dosn't reach my bar for boycotting a organization as little as the mass effect 3 ending will have me boycotting bioware. TL state in their rules that the moderating won't be fair but that they will try to hold it fair. I don't believe they tried to be fair this time which is why im complaining. Sure punish destiny if you are against what he is dooing but you need to uphold some kind of similar treatment between people. PS: and yes this the same could have been said about the orb situation DS I agree wholeheartedly, treat Destiny like any other foul-mouthed, non-contributer who only uses TL to promote his stream. Perm, de-feature, and close threads about him. Sure lets do it. I don't have a huge problem with it. It will be a problem with the judging. Idra quite often has called people no lifes, idiots etc. Is that offensive enough, or is insulting one person ok? Incontrol who is against foul language on his stream has the picture "im incontrol bitch", bitch is degrading comment against women, should he be defeatured until he removes it? Alot of players use the word rape, which probably some rape victims have a problem with, should these players be banned?. Heck some players and commentators use "oh my god" in a way some people will feel is insulting. Stop trying to censors other peoples language, just don't listen to them. People have a choice to go watch streams, don´t watch destinys stream if you don´t like his language. Do we really need a third party to come in and be a moral judge. I say that tl should let people say what they want on their own streams or enforce the same rules on all, if that rule you can´t insult people they will have alot of banning to do. Right. IdrA and Incontrol, definitely in the same category of contributions as Destiny. Not quite. But hey, ignore the key part there. I find it vaguely ironic you tell me not to censor other people's language, when merely uttering that phrase constitutes raw, unadultered hypocrisy. You're trying to censor what you perceive as an attempt at censorship. If Destiny has a "right" to be offensive, there's certainly no room to complain about people's reactions to what he says. Aside from that, I won't waste effort on a rebuttal to all the words you put in my mouth. Really? I actually doubt who is the supporter of racist speech and hate speech here. At least I believe destiny should be banned on forum for calling someone faggot, be that a mod or not. What you are saying, however, is that we call allow pros to say bitch or retard because they contributed more to your perception of esports. Why the fuck does esport matter so much that it can act as a "get out free" card on these behaviors now? Those term should not be welcomed on tl no matter who says it. In fact, if this is what people want for esports, then fuck it, let it crash and burn. I'm proud to say that i support the scene by watch streams, watch tournament and buy season passes, not by being an asshole who wrote to sponsors and destroy one of the few people who can make a living purely depending on sc2.
Since you're just trying to use semantics to discredit something you don't agree with, I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time explaining the difference between hate speech and insults. I'm sure you understand.
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On May 04 2012 19:33 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:
[quote]
So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf?
/snark
TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did.
The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans.
Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements. That is like saying when a police officer taunt you into a fight with him, he's not acting as an officer, but a citizen. Yet he is totally justified when the police station cover it up and put the guy in jail.
Provocation isn't a viable defense really, bad analogy. Otherwise where would the line be drawn, someone had a differing opinion and was slightly aggressive about it so you were justified in reacting too harshly?
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Well that was everything you all could of wished for. So now the question becomes: Who faces this bloodthirsty mob next? An interesting thought, imagine day9 drops something offensive (I know its Hard). I think TL would break in half over the issue.
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On May 05 2012 03:07 Rebel_lion wrote:
Well that was everything you all could of wished for. So now the question becomes: Who faces this bloodthirsty mob next? An interesting thought, imagine day9 drops something offensive (I know its Hard). I think TL would break in half over the issue.
I think Day[9] is at least mature enough to apologize if he realizes he offended people severely. Makes a helluva difference.
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On May 05 2012 03:07 Rebel_lion wrote:
Well that was everything you all could of wished for. So now the question becomes: Who faces this bloodthirsty mob next? An interesting thought, imagine day9 drops something offensive (I know its Hard). I think TL would break in half over the issue.
I don't get this argument. Do you think Day9 would not apologize and would defend his atitude and right to say offensive words? This situation blew up because of Destiny's opinion that it's completelly fine to act as he does and because he acted like an asshole in the thread. If someone like Day9 makes a mistake the world won't explode, he will say he is sorry and reasonable people will let it go. It's only an issue if it happens constantly or the person doesn't acknowledge it as an issue.
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On May 05 2012 03:21 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:07 Rebel_lion wrote:
Well that was everything you all could of wished for. So now the question becomes: Who faces this bloodthirsty mob next? An interesting thought, imagine day9 drops something offensive (I know its Hard). I think TL would break in half over the issue.
I don't get this argument. Do you think Day9 would not apologize and defend his atitude and right to say offensive words? This situation blew up because of Destiny's opinion that it's completelly fine to act as he does and because he acted like an asshole in the thread. If someone like Day9 makes a mistake the world won't explode, he will say he is sorry and reasonable people will let it go. It's only an issue if it happens constantly or the person doesn't acknowledge it as an issue.
Yeah, seriously, remember how bad Day[9] felt about accidentally ruining Christmas? We'd probably get Day[9] daily number oh fuck I'm sorry if he said something racist. It would be 3 sections, long, of him playing SC2, apologizing over and over again, and writing "I'm sorry" in pylons 100 times or something...
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Do apologies stop letters sent? What if people come with screenshots from 2009 brood war of some other offensive shit. Its like orb all over. Destiny couldn't of driven the rabid off with an apology. Orb tried.. to little effect.
The more you swear your not something the more people will assume that you are. Red scare, witchhunt.
I agree day9 would make it right, but he is the mad prophet of starcraft, i think i'd be ok with almost anything Day did.
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On May 05 2012 04:00 Rebel_lion wrote:
Do apologies stop letters sent? What if people come with screenshots from 2009 brood war of some other offensive shit. Its like orb all over. Destiny couldn't of driven the rabid off with an apology. Orb tried.. to little effect.
The more you swear your not something the more people will assume that you are. Red scare, witchhunt.
I agree day9 would make it right, but he is the mad prophet of starcraft, i think i'd be ok with almost anything Day did.
It's highly unlikely we would have been in this exact spot if Desiny didn't do stuff like this constantly and/or if his first reaction was to say "I'm sorry, I made a mistake in a heated moment and will try to improve myself in the future". But then it wouldn't be Destiny. It's not the first time people complain about him, it's just the first time it really exploded. Also, Orb didn't really try. He denied for quite some time, made some people even more angry and apologized after it had already made it's damage. Plus he already had a reputation for raging.
If any other player with a clean record did the same, maybe some people would overreact as well, but a quick apology and some PR management would make it a lot less extreme than this case. I doubt they would get banned and temporarily unfeatured for a single incident and more people would be on their side.
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On May 03 2012 22:47 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 DharmaTurtle wrote:On May 03 2012 09:57 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch. Bullshit. It's not a impartial resource. TL chooses who gets featured, list their stream or not. They will let you feature it as long as you abide by the site rules. You keep bringing up IdrA, how about i bring up Orb's stream which was banned by TL using racial slurs? Why do you ignore that? On May 03 2012 09:42 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does. You post in every Destiny thread at Reddit and that's why your name stands out. Also aren't you mod in his chat? You have 272 posts and majority of them are related to Destiny ?? It almost seems like it's his smurf. Anyway, i created an account because this thread was being linked in Reddit and Destiny's chat to basically have people come here and post for Destiny. I thought it was bullshit that his fans were trying to peer pressure the mods. Also bottom line, it won't get through Destiny's head that he is not above everyone else until his stream is banned. Banning his account here won't do shit because he will just ignore. He needs to be taught a lesson and this will. Anyway, it's pointless arguing with you, hope the mods stick to their guns. My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I. Yes, I am a mod. How is that relevant, beyond ad hominem? I've already threatened to ban the chat morons who come in here to post garbage this morning before my first post. I've already (temp)banned people for going into Dragon's chat during his showmatch with Destiny and posting inflammatory comments. Point me to the people who are trying to peer pressure the mods and I'll mow them down. But for the past ~4 pages it's been the same ~15 people yakking, so I have no idea what you mean by peer pressure... And again, you talk about how Destiny "needs to be taught a lesson". So for insulting someone's feelings over the Internet, TL is going to deprive him of a significant portion of his sole source of income? When they specifically didn't do so (and gave broad, sweeping reasons) when another famous streamer was banned? =\ @haileris: Damn straight. But given Destiny's ego... Not even sure if he can log in to talk to TLadmin if he is banned. Oh well, I'm sure they have their methods. Orb got banned for using racial slurs (before the shitstorm), IdrA dint. Why do you keeping picking IdrA's situation to compare to Destiny and not Orb? Why dint you voice your concern about mod's consistency then? What part of this site being a private organization that does what's best for them do you not understand? Yes, banning his stream is the only way to teach him a lesson because that's the only thing that will make him pay attention to the issue. If you just banned his account for a year, he would not care because he doesn't use his TL account other than to advertise his stream. He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread. It has also been happening for long time. TL mods would have banned his stream even if he was making zero income from it. It's not their concern to worry about Destiny's finances. You act like a dick then they will take away what's precious to you. It's Destiny's that has to learn his lesson and not act like a moron if he wants his stream unbanned which generates his income. Also i brought up the fact you are mod, post mostly about Destiny is to make sure everyone knows you are very biased. Nothing wrong with that, just making sure people know. I've already addressed this - do I really need to explain every detail? I didn't talk about Orb because he was banned for stream behavior, and rightly so! Idra and Destiny were banned for forum behavior, a different matter entirely. Let me repeat myself, since I doubt you'll look up to see what I said: "I would be entirely okay with TL unfeaturing him for their own reasons, such as excessive profanity on stream, stupid behavior on stream, conduct unbecoming on stream - but notice this is all stream related. Forum conduct, in my opinion, should not effect stream status, simply because the two aren't related."
I'm not questioning TL's rules/independence... see the above statement.
"He is not merely insulting people over internet, he is acting like he is above everyone else. He posted memes and troll comments in that thread." Wow... just... facepalm.
Of course I'm biased... show me someone who isn't biased towards Destiny and I'll show you someone who's never watched him before. But my bias stems from the fact that I'm a fan, not a mod. If I lost my modship, I would be a fan regardless.
"[you] post mostly about Destiny..." Are you really going to bring that up again, Mister I-Made-An-Account-Just-To-Talk-About-Destiny? Let me quote myself: My post history in reverse order: Teamliquid API, Scarlett Fanclub, How to set volume controls as macros on Razer BW, JediGamer/Syndicate turning a new leaf, TL Hacker Database, Season 3!, Tasteless' voice, Megumixbear Fanclub, (q)Are keypads legal in tournaments or ladder?, Gimix Fan Club, An Apology to a Fan, No replays released from Anaheim, SpazCraft - Returning, MLG Anaheim 2011 Relay Race, EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism, [GSTL] Continuing Efforts, Puma leaves TSL for EG, and oh hey! [Stream] Destiny. On July 20, 2011. You got me - I'm his smurf. It's been 11 months since I've talked about him. I just waltz into every Destiny thread, don't I.
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"I appreciate the support to those who've been supportive, I really do, but this issue isn't worth fighting over, no more racial slurs for me"
Oh finally. That's the end of that, no more of this brain-numbing drama. Moving on, moving on, scooch scooch. I hope the TL admins are making progress internally 
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My opinion on the moderation of this site is that people get warned or banned for having an opinion contrary to that of the moderator. I'm sure this isn't the case with all the mods on this site but there are DEFINITELY, beyond any tiny shred of doubt in my mind, moderators on this site who warn and ban because people have different opinions to their own. I'm not talking about my own warnings here but I see so many "User was warned/banned for this post" where I read it and think "Why? Because he had a different opinion....?"
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On May 05 2012 22:46 Otak wrote:
My opinion on the moderation of this site is that people get warned or banned for having an opinion contrary to that of the moderator. I'm sure this isn't the case with all the mods on this site but there are DEFINITELY, beyond any tiny shred of doubt in my mind, moderators on this site who warn and ban because people have different opinions to their own. I'm not talking about my own warnings here but I see so many "User was warned/banned for this post" where I read it and think "Why? Because he had a different opinion....?"
To know why someone was banned, you can always check the Automated Ban List.
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On May 05 2012 22:46 Otak wrote:
My opinion on the moderation of this site is that people get warned or banned for having an opinion contrary to that of the moderator. I'm sure this isn't the case with all the mods on this site but there are DEFINITELY, beyond any tiny shred of doubt in my mind, moderators on this site who warn and ban because people have different opinions to their own. I'm not talking about my own warnings here but I see so many "User was warned/banned for this post" where I read it and think "Why? Because he had a different opinion....?"
So very wrong >_>
The moderation here is actually very lenient, if you aren't a jackass about it.
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Australia8532 Posts
On May 05 2012 22:46 Otak wrote:
My opinion on the moderation of this site is that people get warned or banned for having an opinion contrary to that of the moderator. I'm sure this isn't the case with all the mods on this site but there are DEFINITELY, beyond any tiny shred of doubt in my mind, moderators on this site who warn and ban because people have different opinions to their own. I'm not talking about my own warnings here but I see so many "User was warned/banned for this post" where I read it and think "Why? Because he had a different opinion....?"
Provide an example of this; especially beyond a rare outlier because your tone implies an ongoing trend for certain moderators and in my time on this site i cannot think of more than 1 or 2 ban reasons i found to be odd or unjustified.
Not only is your claim unfounded you provide no argument.
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On May 03 2012 18:44 Falling wrote:
One further thing I might throw in here is that while people backing mod actions is appreciated, I'm a little uncomfortable of how often 'this is our house' get's thrown around. It is our first commandment, but I don't think that's the first rule to throw back at someone giving website feedback. Even if ultimately that's what it comes down to.
Hey Guys, first post here. I joined specifically to give feedback to this thread.
First i agree a lot with what Falling wrote above; in the feedback section, that should NOT be the response that is received. If that is the response that is given, why is there a feedback area in the first place?
Second, i wanted to say that I think the OP made this thread with good intentions. Like him, i also would like to see TL not only survive, but THRIVE. However like the OP, i am seriously starting to question visiting these forums the same as I do the BATTLE.NET forums. They are both becoming hate-filled cesspools of bandwaggoners, ready to lynch anyone/anything at the drop of a hat. I see many strategy threads of people posting builds that have worked for them through Diamond+, and people bash them to no end. This kind of behavior is not, and should not be accepted. So what, the build is viewed as 'Cheese'; the OP took the time to detail his build and thoughts for everyone else to see and utilize, there should be nothing but thank you's and/or constructive criticism, not all out hate and bashing the OP. This does not reflect well on the TL community as a whole.
And, finally, what all of this means is that people like myself, and the OP will no longer find TL as a useful and reputable source of information, and eventually that means less eyeballs on TL.
It hurts TL to continue like this because I can assure you, we are not the only two who feel this way. And please don't respond to this with 'It's Our House'; if you do, you are most likely part of the problem then.
EDIT: Also, are we done talking about Destiny yet? This thread should not be about him, but about the moderating styles used towards that thread, etc. back on topic pls..
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United States8476 Posts
On May 08 2012 00:56 SMILOOON wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 18:44 Falling wrote:
One further thing I might throw in here is that while people backing mod actions is appreciated, I'm a little uncomfortable of how often 'this is our house' get's thrown around. It is our first commandment, but I don't think that's the first rule to throw back at someone giving website feedback. Even if ultimately that's what it comes down to. Hey Guys, first post here. I joined specifically to give feedback to this thread. First i agree a lot with what Falling wrote above; in the feedback section, that should NOT be the response that is received. If that is the response that is given, why is there a feedback area in the first place? Second, i wanted to say that I think the OP made this thread with good intentions. Like him, i also would like to see TL not only survive, but THRIVE. However like the OP, i am seriously starting to question visiting these forums the same as I do the BATTLE.NET forums. They are both becoming hate-filled cesspools of bandwaggoners, ready to lynch anyone/anything at the drop of a hat. I see many strategy threads of people posting builds that have worked for them through Diamond+, and people bash them to no end. This kind of behavior is not, and should not be accepted. So what, the build is viewed as 'Cheese'; the OP took the time to detail his build and thoughts for everyone else to see and utilize, there should be nothing but thank you's and/or constructive criticism, not all out hate and bashing the OP. This does not reflect well on the TL community as a whole. And, finally, what all of this means is that people like myself, and the OP will no longer find TL as a useful and reputable source of information, and eventually that means less eyeballs on TL. It hurts TL to continue like this because I can assure you, we are not the only two who feel this way. And please don't respond to this with 'It's Our House'; if you do, you are most likely part of the problem then. EDIT: Also, are we done talking about Destiny yet? This thread should not be about him, but about the moderating styles used towards that thread, etc. back on topic pls..
The "becoming hate-filled cesspools of bandwaggoners" are mostly people who don't frequent TL very often and only came to comment on Destiny. You can see that the most problematic people in the Destiny threads are people with very low post counts.
As for the strategy section, it has standards. There are lower level strats that are allowed to be open if they're well written and reasonably well thought out such as: this or this. The ones that are bashed are the ones that are poorly written/thought out or they're criticized for their flaws and the OP gets extremely defensive about it.
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NrgMonk, to be honest, i didn't even bother reading the Destiny thread. I basically assumed it was just the same regurgitation of crap that already happened before with him. I was just referring to posts in general in a lot of the threads I have actually read. I have been a lurker since around the sc2 beta days, and only in the ~5 months it seems like the forums are becoming very.. Toxic. Lots and lots of hate and BM over pretty much nothing.... Maybe its due to the increased population size because eSports is growing? I don't know, i'm just making observations as someone who reads a lot here, but doesn't post much.
And, I am glad you posted the link to one of Hammer's threads because it is a perfect example of what I am trying to illustrate. From reading the thread, there were FAR more people straight up insulting him about his league/how he has shitty macro/etc/etc/whatever than there were actually contributing ideas to making the build BETTER. I dont even think the Geiko 3rax thread got this much hate :-P
Just one nugget of a super-duper-mega-awesome helpful comment:
"The problem is that even in the lower leagues, it relies on you being significantly better than your opponent to pull this off. And it's completely not viable at Master league level"
What if the person I quoted didn't post useless crap like that and actually tried the build and found what he could improve?
So, while I agree that his guide was a bit lacking in areas, and his videos are a bit light on specifics sometimes, people need to give constructive criticism and stop being so dismissive and rude. By encouraging strategies like this and improving them, we are only helping ourselves evolve the meta-game to open up other possibilities...
And, I do understand the challenge the Mods are up against when it comes to keeping the Strategy forum in check from various duplicate and useless threads, I just wish that the community was not so incendiary and dismissive over things "THEY KNOW JUST CANNOT WORK".
I think the definition of insanity is trying the same thing.. but expecting different results, right? Well if we keep trying the same crap in SC2, we get the same damn results!!!!!!!
edit: damnit... ^^^
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EPT
