[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?)

Fogetaboudit

United States232 Posts

April 30 2012 09:55 GMT

PvZ - Establishing third, and additional bases, with Skytoss/Mothership/Cannons

updated build order - http://drop.sc/209615

The midgame strategy and composition was given a go in the ProLeague. Nice find! :D :D

On May 21 2012 01:37 TheSilverfox wrote:
Here's M18M (StarDust) using a variation of this strat in ProLeague :D

He had a really nice composition with a lot of VRs, some Carriers, othership as well as 3-4 HTs to Feedback the Infestors.

Results, 85%+ Ladder winrate over current sample (small,) but similar results over very very large samplesize (1 year-ish)
+ Show Spoiler +

I just installed SC2 gears (cool program!) Here is an analysis of all of my Ladder games for all the replays I have, as you can see my PvZ is pretty dominant. Also, most of the 5 losses are from getting all-inned or whathaveyou. I still need to work on my defense of the various all-ins. While this will become less powerful (like every strategy) at higher levels, I think it's still at least certainly viable. I wish I had my replays saved all year, but the results are not really different, just the sample size. I really need to learn PvP, or I'll just end up switching to Terran for good

Hi Guys, I'm a bit of a Lurker and recreational player. This is my first post so go easy on the flaming, please.

I'm pretty obsessive when it comes to gametheory. I like to understand why I'm winning and losing, and usually it's pretty clear to me, as I watch tons of pro games, pro streams, and feel like I have a really good understanding of the game. However, in PvZ it is absolutely not clear to me, why more people don't use this strategy.

Void Rays, Void Rays!

[image loading]

Before you LOL at the composition and how this looks like a silver league 4v4 please actually give this post some thought.

If a top protoss were to try this style, and work on it, I just can't see how it would lose. I would really love to see this strategy either become extremely powerful, and very viable at any level, or get exploited.

Most top protoss who try double stargate treat it as too much of a 2 base all-in imho.

Here are some other replays:

http://www.twitch.tv/bocciagaming/b/322237829

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 31 2012 22:01 Adonminus wrote:
I tried this style out, started with some practice games with my teammates, and now here's my first time trying it on ladder against NrSuStar rank ~80 grandmaster on eu. I won the game quite easily actually, great strategy imo. Check the replay:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)NOMAdonminus_vs_(Z)NrSuStar/19912

http://drop.sc/171090

http://drop.sc/171670 - 1st Ballot BM Hall of Famer xDDD - I go for a +1 zealot+VoidRay timing off 2 base to try and interrupt his drone count, this delays my third but I think its worth it. I also make a scouting Phoenix which is really helpful in identifying the threats.

http://drop.sc/171539 - worked in a scouting Phoenix to check for Muta, then transitioned into Colossus off 4 base

http://drop.sc/170081 - versus roach bust

http://drop.sc/169551
http://drop.sc/169902
http://drop.sc/170611
http://drop.sc/169478
http://drop.sc/170686
http://drop.sc/170666

Losing versus better player - http://drop.sc/171097 - This game makes me feel that mixing in 1 or 2 scouting phoenix is important! he was active with harass and just a little too fast, there are many things the protoss can improve upon, however. It's possible that pulling probes and making reactive Phoenix versus Mutas is a bit too slow.

http://drop.sc/171539 - tried a light 2 base pressure, and then worked in a scouting Phoenix to check for Muta, then transitioned into Colossus off 4 base.

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 06 2012 17:30 piroko139 wrote:
Alright, I was toying around with this the past coupe of days and I noted a few things. I am mid Masters on NA in case anyone is wondering.

1. Games last LONG. All the games that I didn't die to early aggression, they lasted at least 20 minutes, commonly around 30.

2. As a result of games lasting long, focus on upgrades is paramount. I have to definitely attribute a lot, if not all, of my wins to being up in reasonable upgrades. Carriers hit hard as hell when they're at 3 attack. I'm sure you guys already knew that.

3. Defensive Mothership is pretty amazing. It bolsters your defense tremendously, and gives more mobility to an honestly slow army. Recall is apparently awesome. That in mind, It has forced me to get used to using the Mothership on a completely different hotkey.

4. Corrupters are not that great against this composition, UNLESS they're upgraded. I do not see many zerg going double Spire though. Hydras are also not that great against this composition. But then again, I haven't gone up against 3/3 Hydras yet (I see a lot of zerg skipping Carapace for some reason).

5. There is no efficient mineral dump against this composition. Spore Crawlers fail against Carriers, Lings can't hit air (or get past a cannon wall), and I haven't seen a queen heavy composition yet (Although I have to assume Carrier dps will negate Transfuse anyways). Forcing the zerg into a gas heavy composition is something that seems to make them uncomfortable. In other words, I have made several zerg lose purely because they ran out of gas to reinforce.

6. A lot of games seem to catch the zerg completely off guard, simply by putting the Stargates 2 opposite ends of the base. By showing a single Stargate, the zerg seem to assume that that's all you have, and it commonly leaves them unprepared if they attempt to engage with no antiair.

Replays:
In the following replays, I opened up Forge Expand every single time, along with Double Stargate. In almost all of the games, I went for pure air, the composition consisting of 1 Mothership, Void Rays and Carriers, going Phoenix for Mutas (obviously). I opted for more heavy Carriers in most games, although I have yet to differentiate when it is appropriate to do one or the other.

http://drop.sc/173180
Daybreak
Muta Ling play. Although he was able to wreck my economy, the infrastructure for a Phoenix switch kept the muta numbers down, in addition to having not touched the primary army. As such, the final engagement was more or less a walkover, since he was unable to maintain a 4th (or his main). Also, 3 attack Carriers wreck 0 armor Hydras.

http://drop.sc/173183
Korhal Compound LE
I was really bad in scouting this game, he took every base that wasn't on my side of the map, and I completely missed it. Still, I felt as if his 4th was too late, and he found out first hand why you shouldn't bunch up your overseers. Again, 3 attack Carriers really smash things with no armor.

http://drop.sc/173185
Cloud Kingdom LE
Hydra Infestor composition. I believe what killed him is that he made too many infestors and it cut deep into his gas. As such, he was unable to reinforce with either Hydras or more Corrupters. Also, his 4th was really late, which allowed it to get sniped almost immediately.

http://drop.sc/173186
Antiga Shipyard
I believe he tried Stephano style roaches, assuming that it was only 1 Stargate. As such, I found out how effective Void Rays + Cannons are against Roach Ling. It seems like the rest of it was him losing too much and being unable to rebuild his economy effectively (or even get a composition that can hit air).

http://drop.sc/173221
Cloud Kingdom LE
44 Corrupters < 15 Void Rays, 6 Carriers. To be fair, the toss is at 3/2/1 and the Corrupters were at 1/1, in addition to half the Corrupter army didn't engage immediately. Although he was able to get good ling runbys, I was able to keep my army. Also, even though he hit 6k minerals, I reiterate that there is no efficient mineral dump against mass air.

http://drop.sc/173224
Korhal Compound LE
This game is a loss. It showcases early aggression destroying enough of the economy that it becomes too taxing to recover. He also significantly delayed my 3rd, forcing my army to grow too slowly. It also involves the use of double spire to equate the upgrades that the air toss had. Since I haven't tried double Core yet, I fell behind in upgrades and 3/2 Corrupters overran me in the end.

In the end, I feel it's at least a refreshing look at PvZ, and I will certainly be trying out mass air more. I'll post more replays as they come along.

Disrespectful poster getting owned!

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base ...

http://drop.sc/171090

Thanks for reading my post!

Andrew

TokO

Norway577 Posts

April 30 2012 10:24 GMT

I just have a question, could you elaborate in your OP more about the composition and map viability? Maybe how it fares against the different styles of defense? I could probably figure out if I watched the replays, but it might arouse some interest from a broader audience if you add some more information. As far as I am concerned, both P and Z players are yearning for variations to the current gameplay, so inputs like this are really helpful.

Thank you nevertheless!

Immutant

Singapore201 Posts

April 30 2012 10:37 GMT

If you truely want to be invincible, add HTs late game into the mix. They cost only 2 supply? And 1 storm would wipe out the cluster of corrupters/hydras. They can also feedback infestors. + their movement speed is on par with the mothership so you get 2 OP spellcasters in an area.

I see this a lot in 3v3, 4v4 team games.

Fogetaboudit

United States232 Posts

April 30 2012 10:38 GMT

Well, the composition is... Void Rays!! :D

Basically you spend all of your gas on Void Rays + Mothership. Against anything on the ground in the midgame, this is what you make.

If you scout muta then you have the infrastructure to go Phoenix. One mismicro that pros always make and it TILTS ME beyond belief. They try to micro 1 or 2 phoenix against 13 mutas like some sort of hero, and of course it always gets sniped. They repeat this for 3 or 4 production cycles, managing to let every phoenix get sniped, when you need to use very defensive micro, and NOT TAKE CHANCES until you have a critical number of phoenix's to trade efficiently.

Also, you can add a few carriers late, against a zerg with a lot of infestors in his composition. I did this in my second replay.

But seriously, its all about Stargate, Mothership, and cannons. Think of it like Mech TvX, but it's more mobile and defensive recall is just amazing for harass, and OH SHIT!

Fogetaboudit

United States232 Posts

April 30 2012 10:41 GMT

since you are turtling with your deathball, and plastering the map with cannons, if you manage to mine half the gas on the map you can make the production facilities to remax into any sort of standard composition that you choose. In my second replay, after establishing my fourth I throw down 15 gates and Colossus tech, even though I never end up needing to use it.

Fogetaboudit

United States232 Posts

April 30 2012 10:54 GMT

On April 30 2012 19:24 TokO wrote:
I just have a question, could you elaborate in your OP more about the composition and map viability? Maybe how it fares against the different styles of defense? I could probably figure out if I watched the replays, but it might arouse some interest from a broader audience if you add some more information. As far as I am concerned, both P and Z players are yearning for variations to the current gameplay, so inputs like this are really helpful.

Thank you nevertheless!

I talked about composition in my first reply but I forgot to talk about map viability.

Bigger maps are slightly better, smaller maps are slightly worse. Mostly because the push distance to your third for early timings is shorter or longer. That one huge map with the two islands is SUPER awesome for this strategy.

And of course maps like Metalopolis where its harder to FFE are worse than maps where it's a bit more natural.

But since you don't really need minerals anyways, and your going to sink into cannons eventually, anyway, you can throw down a few extra cannons if you don't confirm a quick third, or if you are scared of some shady business like early speed, scouting a lot of lings which could mean a bust could be coming, etc etc.

sperY

Serbia444 Posts

April 30 2012 11:10 GMT

Watched both games, dunno really what to say. It worked better than i thought.
Would like to see how this would cope with hydra/fungal combo. In both games there were no fungals, at least no decent ones.

Also the part about mutas. You dont really scout (you go for voids immediately) so you dont know if has 7-8 mutas coming.

On April 30 2012 19:38 Fogetaboudit wrote:
If you scout muta then you have the infrastructure to go Phoenix. One mismicro that pros always make and it TILTS ME beyond belief. They try to micro 1 or 2 phoenix against 13 mutas like some sort of hero, and of course it always gets sniped. They repeat this for 3 or 4 production cycles, managing to let every phoenix get sniped, when you need to use very defensive micro, and NOT TAKE CHANCES until you have a critical number of phoenix's to trade efficiently.

Problem with mutas is that they kill your pylons/stargate to prevent you from making additional phoenixes. Thats why pros try to buy time with a singe phoenix.

the p00n

Netherlands615 Posts

April 30 2012 11:12 GMT

Looks a lot like my build:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271126

The difference would be that I use Archons instead of VRs, which I believe is better due to warp-in time and the low mineral cost (100/300), which would allow for more cannons or whathaveyou. That being said, a FFE into double stargate is very vulnerable to things such as hydra drops and other cheesy things (baneling bust shoots to mind).

Fogetaboudit

United States232 Posts

April 30 2012 11:26 GMT

I never tried archons but they seem pretty bad versus roaches in my experience. I think the idea of the defensive mothership to establish a third is very good, though.

Baneling busts function very similar to the same way they function versus any normal FFE (itll probably work if you are poorly defended and caught off guard.)

If your first probe doesn't scout a third then you should be pretty skeptical. Open with zealot pressure, poker around and if you scout a bunch of lings or speed or no third and get that spidey sense then you can make a few cannons blind, of buff your sim city and it doesn't really hurt you, until you get the defensive voids out.

Blind Hydra drops are probably the hardest counter if your opponent commits from the start of the game, however, he can't "scout and exploit" it's way too slow imo.

Fogetaboudit

United States232 Posts

April 30 2012 11:32 GMT

#10

On April 30 2012 20:10 sperY wrote:
Watched both games, dunno really what to say. It worked better than i thought.
Would like to see how this would cope with hydra/fungal combo. In both games there were no fungals, at least no decent ones.

Also the part about mutas. You dont really scout (you go for voids immediately) so you dont know if has 7-8 mutas coming.

Show nested quote +

Problem with mutas is that they kill your pylons/stargate to prevent you from making additional phoenixes. Thats why pros try to buy time with a singe phoenix.

When I say scout, I mean "see mutas" what will sometimes happen is you will have 3 voids harassing the zergs third, you will notice the lings have no speed, you will notice there are no roaches and then BAM 12 mutas kill your three voids. You target and try to pick off 2 or 3 mutas. you have another 2 Voids in production, and your mothership is about to pop. You use these units to "zone" the mutas out kinda like marines do. You throw down emergency cannons, you pump phoenix and 1 or 2 emergency stalkers.

It's a little tricky and takes some time to get used to but the stabilization is not that hard. Phoenix / voidrayMS versus Muta Corruptor is really fun!

Mutas have little DPS, unpowering my Stargates is not really a threat, normally I have a cannon covering my stargates, also never make an artosis pylon powering all your stargates, obv!

TechSc2

Netherlands554 Posts

April 30 2012 12:57 GMT

#11

i've watched the peepmode replay and i must say it looks very interesting. The one thing i foresee as a hardcounter that is viable after scouting the build would be corrupter infestor. Corrupters with fungal is more cost effective then pure voidray.

I'm gonna try it out, and give it a shot and post my thought/replays on it whenever i have around 10 games with it.

I was playing around with defensive stargate openings before but you can get swarmed if they intended to open up muta but then cuorrupter switch once they see pure air. And voidrays only get really good in larger numbers, as seen in the replays when you start cleaving through the zergs main in like 10 seconds and then recall back.

Fogetaboudit

United States232 Posts

April 30 2012 13:08 GMT

#12

On April 30 2012 21:57 TechSc2 wrote:
i've watched the peepmode replay and i must say it looks very interesting. The one thing i foresee as a hardcounter that is viable after scouting the build would be corrupter infestor. Corrupters with fungal is more cost effective then pure voidray.

I'm gonna try it out, and give it a shot and post my thought/replays on it whenever i have around 10 games with it.

I was playing around with defensive stargate openings before but you can get swarmed if they intended to open up muta but then cuorrupter switch once they see pure air. And voidrays only get really good in larger numbers, as seen in the replays when you start cleaving through the zergs main in like 10 seconds and then recall back.

I'm happy to hear this!

Fungal is the biggest thing to look out for, chain fungals are instant GG if you don't have a recall and are too balled up and caught out on the map. It's very important to only be aggressive if you have a recall available. If you are turtling behind your cannons you cannot really be "fungaled" there.

Good Luck!

InfusedTT.DaZe

Romania693 Posts

April 30 2012 13:17 GMT

#13

there are more problems than chain fungals, mass infested terrans and hydra dps seems good vs mass vr, but anyway its worth trying out

lahara

Germany140 Posts

April 30 2012 13:22 GMT

#14

On April 30 2012 19:37 Immutant wrote:
If you truely want to be invincible, add HTs late game into the mix. They cost only 2 supply? And 1 storm would wipe out the cluster of corrupters/hydras. They can also feedback infestors. + their movement speed is on par with the mothership so you get 2 OP spellcasters in an area.

I see this a lot in 3v3, 4v4 team games.

No, one storm does not wipe out the cluster corrupters and hydras. hydras need 2 storms to kil corruptors need three...

Fogetaboudit

United States232 Posts

April 30 2012 13:24 GMT

#15

On April 30 2012 22:17 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
there are more problems than chain fungals, mass infested terrans and hydra dps seems good vs mass vr, but anyway its worth trying out

In small numbers you are absolutely correct, but we are trying to max out with this army, kinda like how 10 marauders beats 5 tanks but 30 marauders loses to 15 tanks (I'm not Terran but you understand what I'm saying) Void rays in large numbers are just absurd, they literally counter Hydras when they are stacked, especially off creep and engaging near edges. Infested terrans actually get mostly sniped up during the hatching.

Tommyth

Poland117 Posts

April 30 2012 13:37 GMT

#16

I must admit at first I thought this strategy sucks, but after trying it out I see how wrong I was. Very easy to pull off, rage-inducing , besides its cool to see victory fleet annihilating everything the zerg can throw at you.

Broesl

Austria75 Posts

April 30 2012 13:53 GMT

#17

Does anyone remember Socke vs. Dimaga on Crevasse a while ago, sometime last year, i think it was one of the IEMs, but im not sure, basically Socke transitioned into mass vr with recall to kill expos and stuff, i actually dont know the result but it looked really good at that time, but nobody ever tried it since then, it was kind of a unique gimmicky game in some ways, maybe someone knows which game it was so we could go watch it.

gaymon

Germany1023 Posts

April 30 2012 13:58 GMT

#18

On April 30 2012 22:53 Broesl wrote:
Does anyone remember Socke vs. Dimaga on Crevasse a while ago, sometime last year, i think it was one of the IEMs, but im not sure, basically Socke transitioned into mass vr with recall to kill expos and stuff, i actually dont know the result but it looked really good at that time, but nobody ever tried it since then, it was kind of a unique gimmicky game in some ways, maybe someone knows which game it was so we could go watch it.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/games/72216_DIMAGA_vs_Socke This game afaik

Broesl

Austria75 Posts

April 30 2012 14:09 GMT

#19

On April 30 2012 22:58 gaymon wrote:

Show nested quote +

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/games/72216_DIMAGA_vs_Socke This game afaik

That´s the game, the replaypack is on liquipedia if anyone wants to watch it, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DreamHack_Summer_2011

He just transitions into it lategame, but that game just came to my mind when i read about vrs with recall to harass, so watch it its kind of old but still pretty epic.

Surili

United Kingdom1141 Posts

April 30 2012 14:34 GMT

#20

Please tell me shit like this doesn't work, beacause if it does, this game is terrible.

:D

Seriously though, that dimaga socke game was silly, it was one of those classic times that dimaga didn't attack with a huge lead, and he managed to throw the game away.

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[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?)

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