EPT[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…
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esaul17
Canada547 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On July 31 2012 14:03 esaul17 wrote: I have been having a bit of trouble with this sort of counter. Z will go for 3 base muta, and attack with the first 9 or so as they pop. I generally don't have much for army yet (say 3 voids and a phoenix if the mutas catch me off guard) and his muta ling attack temporarily denies my building third (cannons still warping in). Following that he makes a big wave of corruptors as I am making phoenixes for the mutas. Due to his muta ball he can his my structures/probes so anywhere I don't have cannons he can attack and force me to engage his mutas and corruptors without cannon support- a fight I can't win (at least cost effectively). I can just never hit critical mass and am slowly overrun. Even if I can keep my third (one game it went totally unscouted) he can just keep attacking cannonless spots and killing my army if I defend them. I can't have canons everywhere. Does anyone have a replay of defending against this sort of thing? That's why there was debate about making the first unit out of your stargate a phoenix... Usually it's roach but if you don't make the phoenix and do 3 voids, you get smoked by muta and there's no coming back from losing those against muta since your phoenix count will never get up to what it should have been vs muta. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On July 31 2012 14:03 esaul17 wrote: I can't have canons everywhere. I quoted this because it's the only specific thing in your post that I could correct. You don't need cannons "everywhere" you just need a few in each mineral line. Gonna have to post a replay or do your own critical thinking and analysis to learn from your losses. It just sounds like you are getting outplayed and not thinking critically/creatively about what you could do better. I've both won and lost versus this style, when I lose, it's because my execution is shit. | ||
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iMmOrTaLiUz
United States37 Posts
http://drop.sc/232088 | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 31 2012 14:03 esaul17 wrote: I have been having a bit of trouble with this sort of counter. Z will go for 3 base muta, and attack with the first 9 or so as they pop. I generally don't have much for army yet (say 3 voids and a phoenix if the mutas catch me off guard) and his muta ling attack temporarily denies my building third (cannons still warping in). Following that he makes a big wave of corruptors as I am making phoenixes for the mutas. Due to his muta ball he can his my structures/probes so anywhere I don't have cannons he can attack and force me to engage his mutas and corruptors without cannon support- a fight I can't win (at least cost effectively). I can just never hit critical mass and am slowly overrun. Even if I can keep my third (one game it went totally unscouted) he can just keep attacking cannonless spots and killing my army if I defend them. I can't have canons everywhere. Does anyone have a replay of defending against this sort of thing? If you only have 3 voids and a Phoenix, I assume it's a 1 stargate-->mothership build. You don't need to make 3 void rays with that opening. One is enough while you wait for the mothership. You should have 1 void for defense and 5 phoenixes harassing and scouting. They do more damage, move faster, and give you a base squad for fighting mutas(should they come). Only make more voids to defend a bust, otherwise wait until you have the 5 phoenixes to go back to void production or into carriers. | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On August 01 2012 00:44 ineversmile wrote: If you only have 3 voids and a Phoenix, I assume it's a 1 stargate-->mothership build. You don't need to make 3 void rays with that opening. One is enough while you wait for the mothership. You should have 1 void for defense and 5 phoenixes harassing and scouting. They do more damage, move faster, and give you a base squad for fighting mutas(should they come). Only make more voids to defend a bust, otherwise wait until you have the 5 phoenixes to go back to void production or into carriers. This is a very good point. Another thing that should be mentioned is there is unless your zealot scout sees roaches coming, you should almost always go phoenix first and rally it towards your opponent's main, because you need that scouting information. Build the void second, and by the time the void finishes you should have scouting info on your opponent. If you see a spire building, a fast range 5 phoenix opener is without a doubt much safer than the fast mothership play. You still get the mothership out reasonably quick, but you need those phoenix out in time for safety. A cannon or two at each mineral line should seal the deal. Also worth noting that 5 phoenix openers can help out down the line against hydras. Lift with carrier support is ridiculous (though micro intensive, obviously; all about dat shift key). I generally only do 3-4 void ray openings against either fast 4th hatch builds or 12 minute roach maxes. The former because it delays his lair tech so long that 4 voids can do good damage against queen/spore, the latter because, well, voids absolutely melt roaches. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On July 28 2012 21:56 Nyast wrote: I attempted pressure builds for a good while, but found it quite ineffective in the end. The problem is this: you're slightly delaying the Zerg, so far so good. This forces him to make a lot of units to defend. Which implies that he's going to be able to deny your third until your MS is out; forget about taking it while the MS is constructing, it'll be impossible. MS production is slightly delayed ( 30s to a minute ) due to the resources you put into pressure. In the end, I found that most of the time I had to delay my third until the 13-14' mark before I can safely take it. Meanwhile, Zerg has been on 3+ bases for a long time, and if he's not stupid and has scouted your bases with overseers, he's already dropped a spire and is starting to produce corruptors. In the end I decided that no pressure and going for eco, faster third and faster MS + voidrays was better  I think the key to skytoss is to prevent ( or delay for a long time ) Zerg's fourth. Most games where I'm able to park a voidray on his fourth and deny it, I've won.I've found 2 gate zealot pressure to be really strong, like what Stardust originally did in Pro league. A lot of the time u kill the third, but u always force a ton of lings. And if u keep ur zealots alive, u can take a quick 3rd base as ur zealots are enough defence against lings, and u will usually have a void ray out. I would agree that some pressures, especially ones involving warp gate would ultimately not be worth it, but i've personally found the 2 gate zealot pressure to be ridiculously effective. | ||
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piroko139
United States261 Posts
1. Infestor usage If you watched TSL4 game Squirtle vs Curious (I want to say game 4?), I think that showcases proper Infestor use vs Carriers more than anything. Fungal Growth on the Interceptors themselves forces you to burn through your mineral bank (which starts getting to be a problem as you begin to transition out of pure air), and significantly reduces the DPS of your army. It's much more effective, IMO, than using Neural on the Carriers themselves, since the remaining Carrier DPS will just kill the Neuraling Infestor. As a result, if you see a significant amount of Infestors (I wanna say at least 8), you can safely assume that he'll have a pretty heavy Infestor focus and as a result, you'll need Templar (which you want for a large number of Corruptors anyways). Long story short, transition to HT faster if you see them going heavy Infestor. 2. Antiga Shipyard It's still a thorn in my side, as I've been toying around with using this style on the map, but drop play is so prevalent. Now, to be fair, this is on the ladder, which means I get really random positions, and this might factor into the significance of drop play, but I might have to resort to placing perimeter Cannons to assist in the defense. If you're wondering, I put the Mothership at the natural ramp to cloak, and whatever air units at the third to help defense. However, I still need more experience with this map. 3. Drop play Scouting has consistently been a thorn in my side. Especially on Daybreak, where your bases are spread out very far apart, even if I place all of my air stuff in a perimeter, I don't have the time to drag all of them back to the main to help defend. Again, may have to resort to a perimeter of Cannons where drop play is likely to occur. But Overlords are still very resilient, so I'll let you know if I have figured anything out. 4. Base denial This seems to be the most effective way to play against this style, where you have a ton of lings and Corruptors to deny the 4th and beyond. By the time your 3-4 Stargates start kicking into production, your main is getting close to mined out and you'll need to start thinking about a 4th at least. If they have scouted this before they commit to Mutas (assuming they went Spire of course), they'll just commit the gas into Corruptors instead, then you'll have a hell of a time taking a 4th without attempting to turtle on your 3 bases. But not enough Zerg do this, at least at Mid Masters, they're still focusing on Stephano style, which I still laugh at. So a list of what I've lost to in recent times: 1. (Delayed) Drop (Dropped Hydras) 2. Muta Ling (Scouted strat before starting Mutas, commited gas to Corruptors) 3. Early game all ins And that's about it so far. Still have a consistently high win rate with this strat. I'll keep toying with it. | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On August 15 2012 09:57 piroko139 wrote: Still toying around with it, and I had some more notes to share. 1. Infestor usage If you watched TSL4 game Squirtle vs Curious (I want to say game 4?), I think that showcases proper Infestor use vs Carriers more than anything. Fungal Growth on the Interceptors themselves forces you to burn through your mineral bank (which starts getting to be a problem as you begin to transition out of pure air), and significantly reduces the DPS of your army. It's much more effective, IMO, than using Neural on the Carriers themselves, since the remaining Carrier DPS will just kill the Neuraling Infestor. As a result, if you see a significant amount of Infestors (I wanna say at least 8), you can safely assume that he'll have a pretty heavy Infestor focus and as a result, you'll need Templar (which you want for a large number of Corruptors anyways). Long story short, transition to HT faster if you see them going heavy Infestor. 2. Antiga Shipyard It's still a thorn in my side, as I've been toying around with using this style on the map, but drop play is so prevalent. Now, to be fair, this is on the ladder, which means I get really random positions, and this might factor into the significance of drop play, but I might have to resort to placing perimeter Cannons to assist in the defense. If you're wondering, I put the Mothership at the natural ramp to cloak, and whatever air units at the third to help defense. However, I still need more experience with this map. 3. Drop play Scouting has consistently been a thorn in my side. Especially on Daybreak, where your bases are spread out very far apart, even if I place all of my air stuff in a perimeter, I don't have the time to drag all of them back to the main to help defend. Again, may have to resort to a perimeter of Cannons where drop play is likely to occur. But Overlords are still very resilient, so I'll let you know if I have figured anything out. 4. Base denial This seems to be the most effective way to play against this style, where you have a ton of lings and Corruptors to deny the 4th and beyond. By the time your 3-4 Stargates start kicking into production, your main is getting close to mined out and you'll need to start thinking about a 4th at least. If they have scouted this before they commit to Mutas (assuming they went Spire of course), they'll just commit the gas into Corruptors instead, then you'll have a hell of a time taking a 4th without attempting to turtle on your 3 bases. But not enough Zerg do this, at least at Mid Masters, they're still focusing on Stephano style, which I still laugh at. So a list of what I've lost to in recent times: 1. (Delayed) Drop (Dropped Hydras) 2. Muta Ling (Scouted strat before starting Mutas, commited gas to Corruptors) 3. Early game all ins And that's about it so far. Still have a consistently high win rate with this strat. I'll keep toying with it. Regarding the fungals on interceptors, that got a lot more feasible with patch 1.5. There were some sneaky, undocumented changes with 1.5 as to how carriers and interceptors work, one of which being that the interceptors clump much closer together around the target now, making AoE like fungal much more feasible. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On August 15 2012 23:07 ineversmile wrote: That carrier change may have made ints clump up a bit more, but it sure made carrier micro way better. Holy crap, they feel way more similar to BW carriers, and that's a good thing because I eventually go for Carrier tech in basically every long game in each match-up. This is true. It has made target firing and individual kiting much more rewarding, to my limited experience with 1.5 (limited experience because 1.5 has also introduced game-ruining lag for me). | ||
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coldSnaH
50 Posts
I suggest to anyone interested in air toss to also work on their other strats, as it is somewhat cheesy and if a player knows what you are up to you are at a disadvantage (however it should carry you to high masters before this becomes an issue, speaking from experience). | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On August 16 2012 06:04 coldSnaH wrote: I have been doing mass air toss air since the beta, although switching it to just vrs zerg shortly after. I find that it is a very effective ladder strategy, however in bo3, bo5, or playing with friends who know your style I find air toss not nearly as effective. I suggest to anyone interested in air toss to also work on their other strats, as it is somewhat cheesy and if a player knows what you are up to you are at a disadvantage (however it should carry you to high masters before this becomes an issue, speaking from experience). Well, isn't it best to have a variety of strategies and switch things up? That's why I like to go into sky toss as a transition from 1 stargate after my third finishes and I have the gas to do that | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On August 16 2012 09:12 ineversmile wrote: Well, isn't it best to have a variety of strategies and switch things up? That's why I like to go into sky toss as a transition from 1 stargate after my third finishes and I have the gas to do that I want to add to this that stargate-first play doesn't always necessarily mean Skytoss builds. I sometimes open stargate-first in PvZ just to scare my opponent, get a couple phoenixes out for scouting/harass overlords, and then transition into standard gateway-based army. If they completely over-react to the stargate with spores/queens/useless tech, mission accomplished. That said, I've found fast mothership fast third to be extremely safe, even against mass roach timings (that hit right before MS is out) as long as you scout properly and get proper numbers of cannons/sentries out in time. And you don't necessarily have to go mass carrier Skytoss style out of that, you can just get a few voids out with the stargate and transition into robo tech if that seems relevant. tl;dr: even if you aren't going for a heavy Skytoss style, opening stargate first in every game of a PvZ Bo5 can really throw your opponent off. | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Also, in hots, I will have access to cloak even earlier with the oracle so my 3rd will be even easier to defend: usually if they suicide I have to warp in DTs to defend and kill the Overseer with voirdray, but in hots its looking like I can skip 1 VR and have a speedy oracle to zip back to base to defend, and I can warp in any units to defend instead of just DTs cause of oracle's cloak. 1.1k masters, have several replays of it if anyone interested | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
The major upside to this composition is that you can have a bunch of Chargelots out to take a fast third, and zerglings are basically not going to stop that unless your opponent makes an insane amount and screws over his own economy hard. If Roaches or Hydras go across the map to pressure the third, you're going to see it coming with your Phoenixes and be able to react properly. Then you have your fast third and you didn't have to play passively to get it, because your defense is a minimal amount of cannons and a maximum amount of highly mobile, heavily-upgraded Chargelots with Phoenix support. From there, that's when I start doing things like adding on Carriers/Templars/Archons and going for the long game, or putting down a 2nd and 3rd Robo and crushing the inevitable wall of Spines with mass Chargelot/Immortal. Or I see them try the roach max and I boost Void Rays and go for a mass Chargelot/Void Ray composition right then and there in the midgame. I know this is the thread about taking a third with Skytoss, but I do constantly make Phoenixes (maybe a Void or two, but mostly Phoenixes) as I take my third, and I find that the Chargelot plan is a really sound way to take and hold a third. It fits my style because I'm used to having active units on the map so that I'm capable of playing offense as well as defense. I very much enjoy playing long macro games, but there's also times when you should be able to say, "OK, you're being too greedy, I'm going to make you pay for that." Cannons can't exactly do that past a certain point in the game. I also am not a fan of leaning on the Mothership, by this point in time, because I really only like it for Recall...I think that the Vortex is only as good as your opponent's mistakes. Anyways, it's another way to accomplish the goals of this thread: take a third, play a macro game (unless your opponent begs you to go over there and kill him for doing something stupid), and if you want you're capable of going into air tech. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
What do you guys do against this? What is the ultimate lategame comp? | ||
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Typhoon1789
Australia292 Posts
On August 20 2012 16:25 Daimai wrote: So I play this style a lot, and my biggest problem is handling lategame infestor/corruptor/brood lord/spore/spine. What do you guys do against this? What is the ultimate lategame comp? I pull it off with 3/3 carriers. Once or if they die by that time i usually have 15+ gateways aswell and just do full warpins of zealots/stalkers if needed to eaither reinforce or kill hatches. I think the staple for late game air toss is to have them gateways very late game. Your gonna end up having alot of minerals so you may aswell use them somewhere. | ||
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Wasihasi
Germany36 Posts
On August 17 2012 09:48 ineversmile wrote: I personally go double forge Chargelot+constant Phoenix and Immortal/Warp Prism production off of gateways+1 Staragate+1 Robo. I do this against Terran, too- Could you please post some replays of this vs terran? | ||
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