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On July 28 2012 04:00 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 03:31 Nihilnovi wrote:On July 28 2012 03:24 nGBeast wrote:
Yeah I don't think this is viable anymore, and roaches so fucking good he can just trade roaches endlessly and lol at you Used this all my pvzs at 900ish masters eu, won all  Devo still viable a 12 min 200 food stephano roach push will shit all over you, it doesn't matter how much static d/void rays you have you will die and lose the base and he's only losing roaches while on 3 bases.
Unless he bring hydras, he's trading Roaches for sim-citied cannons sitting under Void Rays and a Mothership. That means you're putting his army on a clock while he waits for detection to come, then he has to kill stuff in timing windows while he has Overseers around. In the meantime, you're gradually snowballing your fleet and he has to either tech Hydras (which means either a later attack or a window of breathing room for you where you stabilize) or use Overseers to trade the majority of his army for your third. If you save the majority of your workers and all of your air (gas) units and have a mothership, you're actually ahead on 2 base vs 3. You can sacrifice a base and still win the game, so long as you're smart and you go wreck 1-2 of his bases and recall home to maintain your army.
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14:30 max hydra push? sounds like a 2 gate + 1 attack would slow it down significantly :D
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ineversmile, for the 14:30 max hydra push, I stop double VR production, and start pumping carriers, I build some zealots to tank shots, and I drop down one robo, as soon as it's done I drop another robo and support bay and start pumping double colosus. You should have two by the time he attacks, and then it's not even funny how easy it is to hold.
Just remember that having more than 4 or 6 colosus is never good, since he will switch into corruptors, so you have to switch to storm/archon, but before that you have a nice window to do some damage.
Of course, this is all diamond level stuff, your opponents might not let you get away with it, but perhaps it's worth a try.
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On July 28 2012 03:44 ineversmile wrote:
I just think that you can't go FFE into defensive air-only play and expect it to work. The pressure is too little--too late, and you have to rely on static defense so much. I'm still a huge fan of air play and I almost always use Stargate units as part of my composition in PvZ, but I'm much prefering opening 13Gate and pressuring the zerg. In my opinion, it is better to be the bully when you face Zergs. If you start off the game by letting them call the shots, you're screwing yourself over.
I attempted pressure builds for a good while, but found it quite ineffective in the end. The problem is this: you're slightly delaying the Zerg, so far so good. This forces him to make a lot of units to defend. Which implies that he's going to be able to deny your third until your MS is out; forget about taking it while the MS is constructing, it'll be impossible.
MS production is slightly delayed ( 30s to a minute ) due to the resources you put into pressure.
In the end, I found that most of the time I had to delay my third until the 13-14' mark before I can safely take it. Meanwhile, Zerg has been on 3+ bases for a long time, and if he's not stupid and has scouted your bases with overseers, he's already dropped a spire and is starting to produce corruptors.
In the end I decided that no pressure and going for eco, faster third and faster MS + voidrays was better  I think the key to skytoss is to prevent ( or delay for a long time ) Zerg's fourth. Most games where I'm able to park a voidray on his fourth and deny it, I've won.
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If the Zerg retreats after a failed 200/200 I MAEK ROACH build, I try to let most his roaches alive. The more ineffective supplies he's got in his army, the better for me it as he cannot reinforce with an optimal number of hydras and/or corruptors and/or infestors. So for me, the 200/200 derp push is pretty easy to hold with this build.
- NMHU.
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On July 28 2012 21:56 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 03:44 ineversmile wrote:
I just think that you can't go FFE into defensive air-only play and expect it to work. The pressure is too little--too late, and you have to rely on static defense so much. I'm still a huge fan of air play and I almost always use Stargate units as part of my composition in PvZ, but I'm much prefering opening 13Gate and pressuring the zerg. In my opinion, it is better to be the bully when you face Zergs. If you start off the game by letting them call the shots, you're screwing yourself over. I attempted pressure builds for a good while, but found it quite ineffective in the end. The problem is this: you're slightly delaying the Zerg, so far so good. This forces him to make a lot of units to defend. Which implies that he's going to be able to deny your third until your MS is out; forget about taking it while the MS is constructing, it'll be impossible.
You shouldn't be getting a MS to defend a third if you're doing a gateway pressure build. Your plan for taking a third should be to send Phoenixes out there, see if he took his third and is droning, and then respond with a third and Phoenix harass. If he built a bunch of units, he's all-in and you don't need to take a third base for a while. That's the point.
MS production is slightly delayed ( 30s to a minute ) due to the resources you put into pressure.
I make a MS while taking a 4th because i have an army for defense instead. Granted, it's not a sky army, but it becomes one because after the MS starts I'm going into 3 Stargate Carriers and basically massing just chargelots and an immortal with the rest of my production cycles, since I'm gas starved.
In the end, I found that most of the time I had to delay my third until the 13-14' mark before I can safely take it. Meanwhile, Zerg has been on 3+ bases for a long time, and if he's not stupid and has scouted your bases with overseers, he's already dropped a spire and is starting to produce corruptors.
Who cares about the in-game time? It's all relative. If the zerg doesn't have a saturated third, I don't need one.
In the end I decided that no pressure and going for eco, faster third and faster MS + voidrays was better I think the key to skytoss is to prevent ( or delay for a long time ) Zerg's fourth. Most games where I'm able to park a voidray on his fourth and deny it, I've won.
Whatever works for you!
EDIT: The whole composition I go for in this matchup is Carriers and ranged Phoenixes with a Mothership and +3 air weapons. I actually don't even stop making Phoenixes in most of my games. So I'm still doing Skytoss, but it's a late game plan so I'm not shoehorned into massing crappy Void Rays or eventually abandoning the skies and going into pure chargelot. I think this is smoother in terms of playing to your resources (building mineral-heavy armies early and gas-heavy armies later), map control, and dealing with aggression because it's an approach that isn't built around cutting corners.
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On July 29 2012 03:40 ineversmile wrote:
EDIT: The whole composition I go for in this matchup is Carriers and ranged Phoenixes with a Mothership and +3 air weapons. I actually don't even stop making Phoenixes in most of my games. So I'm still doing Skytoss, but it's a late game plan so I'm not shoehorned into massing crappy Void Rays or eventually abandoning the skies and going into pure chargelot. I think this is smoother in terms of playing to your resources (building mineral-heavy armies early and gas-heavy armies later), map control, and dealing with aggression because it's an approach that isn't built around cutting corners.
You make me curious, do you have replays ?
The problem I see with phoenixes is the same than voidrays: fungal pwns them. Do you spread/harass with them in small groups ?
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On July 29 2012 05:05 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 03:40 ineversmile wrote:
EDIT: The whole composition I go for in this matchup is Carriers and ranged Phoenixes with a Mothership and +3 air weapons. I actually don't even stop making Phoenixes in most of my games. So I'm still doing Skytoss, but it's a late game plan so I'm not shoehorned into massing crappy Void Rays or eventually abandoning the skies and going into pure chargelot. I think this is smoother in terms of playing to your resources (building mineral-heavy armies early and gas-heavy armies later), map control, and dealing with aggression because it's an approach that isn't built around cutting corners. You make me curious, do you have replays ? The problem I see with phoenixes is the same than voidrays: fungal pwns them. Do you spread/harass with them in small groups ?
As a zerg player i can imagine someone doing MASSIVE hit-and-runs on my overlords + drones...or he could split them into groups of 3 or 4 and go overlord/queen hunting, being super annoying and causing terrible economic damage. But I feel that you would simply die to a corruptor/ling timing with 3-4 infestors. We all know that phoenix, motherships, and carriers suck against corruptors, and lings would be good for multi-progned aggression through drops,nydus,runbys, etc.
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I'll go dig for some replays right now. I have a bunch of replays of zergs getting wrecked by the pressure, but not so many of a zerg losing in the late game. It usually goes to a midgame where I'm ahead and I either crush some kind of tier 2 timing from the Zerg and hold my third base, or I go over there and wreck him beyond repair with stargate pay. You would also be surprised how often I kill a scouting overlord with the first stalker when it goes to check my main after seeing no expansion and no wall-off at the ramp. =D A supply block a couple minutes into the game is so swingy.
I'll edit this post in after an hour or so, when I get some replays together and upload them. At least a couple games go to the midgame, to show the third timing I use and my transition plan.
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I havent lost to a zerg with skytoss strat in last 15 games. They have tried everything. Like Shikada mentions max hydra push at 14:30 or so isnt difficult to hold at all. You just have to scout and tech appropriatly. I love this strat.
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On July 29 2012 05:20 SuperYo1000 wrote:
I havent lost to a zerg with skytoss strat in last 15 games. They have tried everything. Like Shikada mentions max hydra push at 14:30 or so isnt difficult to hold at all. You just have to scout and tech appropriatly. I love this strat.
I do lose games (typically facing top8 diamond / low masters), but usually because I lost a few voids early, or didn't make extra cannons in time for a fast hydra-corruptor bust, or overcommitted to phoenixes+stalkers vs a diminishing muta count, or mismanaged my mothership (letting it die with >100 energy). Sometimes a good player will deny my third with an insanely fast hydra rush. Even if he can't break my front, if he can stop me from taking a third until ~15mins, I'm boned. I've also lost a few quick games with a lot of $$ and stargate time invested into a carrier that pops just as the battle is ending. Oh... and fast baneling busts that I can't scout (because my phoenix isn't out, and he's preventing probe scouting with just a few lings)... 
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On July 29 2012 05:13 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:05 Nyast wrote:On July 29 2012 03:40 ineversmile wrote:
EDIT: The whole composition I go for in this matchup is Carriers and ranged Phoenixes with a Mothership and +3 air weapons. I actually don't even stop making Phoenixes in most of my games. So I'm still doing Skytoss, but it's a late game plan so I'm not shoehorned into massing crappy Void Rays or eventually abandoning the skies and going into pure chargelot. I think this is smoother in terms of playing to your resources (building mineral-heavy armies early and gas-heavy armies later), map control, and dealing with aggression because it's an approach that isn't built around cutting corners. You make me curious, do you have replays ? The problem I see with phoenixes is the same than voidrays: fungal pwns them. Do you spread/harass with them in small groups ? As a zerg player i can imagine someone doing MASSIVE hit-and-runs on my overlords + drones...or he could split them into groups of 3 or 4 and go overlord/queen hunting, being super annoying and causing terrible economic damage. But I feel that you would simply die to a corruptor/ling timing with 3-4 infestors. We all know that phoenix, motherships, and carriers suck against corruptors, and lings would be good for multi-progned aggression through drops,nydus,runbys, etc.
So basically you are saying that this will die to ling-corruptor-infestor-nydus timing?
Yep, totally standard play for zerg.
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On July 29 2012 19:37 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 05:13 Mavvie wrote:On July 29 2012 05:05 Nyast wrote:On July 29 2012 03:40 ineversmile wrote:
EDIT: The whole composition I go for in this matchup is Carriers and ranged Phoenixes with a Mothership and +3 air weapons. I actually don't even stop making Phoenixes in most of my games. So I'm still doing Skytoss, but it's a late game plan so I'm not shoehorned into massing crappy Void Rays or eventually abandoning the skies and going into pure chargelot. I think this is smoother in terms of playing to your resources (building mineral-heavy armies early and gas-heavy armies later), map control, and dealing with aggression because it's an approach that isn't built around cutting corners. You make me curious, do you have replays ? The problem I see with phoenixes is the same than voidrays: fungal pwns them. Do you spread/harass with them in small groups ? As a zerg player i can imagine someone doing MASSIVE hit-and-runs on my overlords + drones...or he could split them into groups of 3 or 4 and go overlord/queen hunting, being super annoying and causing terrible economic damage. But I feel that you would simply die to a corruptor/ling timing with 3-4 infestors. We all know that phoenix, motherships, and carriers suck against corruptors, and lings would be good for multi-progned aggression through drops,nydus,runbys, etc. So basically you are saying that this will die to ling-corruptor-infestor-nydus timing? Yep, totally standard play for zerg.
Zerg doesnt have standard play vs mass air. If I see more than 3 Phoenix, I'm throwing down an infestation pit and spire if I don't have both already. Then it'll be about 2.5 minutes until I'm at your door with a few infestors, a bunch of corruptors, and however many lings I can afford.
I was just saying Nydus play is a good idea -- treat your army like T mech. Abuse the immobility. I CAN whittle down a skytoss army, but I can't remax and finish it off when you have 10 stargates and 5 bases. However, if I take out your main, it opens a huge window where I won't have to worry about carrier/mothership etc.
Nydus isn't "standard", but the more common overlord drops would be just as good (albeit vulnerable to Phoenix)
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Revival just crushed this in his playhem game ~5minutes ago. Early hydra/ling/roach into the third, expanded a lot, built up a muta count while counter attacking with lings each time toss moved out sniping buildings + probes, also using mutas.
ended with the toss doing 1 last desperation push with all his VRs + mothership, Revival sat back and let it arrive at his queens + muta ball. GG
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On July 30 2012 00:49 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 19:37 Rimak wrote:On July 29 2012 05:13 Mavvie wrote:On July 29 2012 05:05 Nyast wrote:On July 29 2012 03:40 ineversmile wrote:
EDIT: The whole composition I go for in this matchup is Carriers and ranged Phoenixes with a Mothership and +3 air weapons. I actually don't even stop making Phoenixes in most of my games. So I'm still doing Skytoss, but it's a late game plan so I'm not shoehorned into massing crappy Void Rays or eventually abandoning the skies and going into pure chargelot. I think this is smoother in terms of playing to your resources (building mineral-heavy armies early and gas-heavy armies later), map control, and dealing with aggression because it's an approach that isn't built around cutting corners. You make me curious, do you have replays ? The problem I see with phoenixes is the same than voidrays: fungal pwns them. Do you spread/harass with them in small groups ? As a zerg player i can imagine someone doing MASSIVE hit-and-runs on my overlords + drones...or he could split them into groups of 3 or 4 and go overlord/queen hunting, being super annoying and causing terrible economic damage. But I feel that you would simply die to a corruptor/ling timing with 3-4 infestors. We all know that phoenix, motherships, and carriers suck against corruptors, and lings would be good for multi-progned aggression through drops,nydus,runbys, etc. So basically you are saying that this will die to ling-corruptor-infestor-nydus timing? Yep, totally standard play for zerg. Zerg doesnt have standard play vs mass air. If I see more than 3 Phoenix, I'm throwing down an infestation pit and spire if I don't have both already. Then it'll be about 2.5 minutes until I'm at your door with a few infestors, a bunch of corruptors, and however many lings I can afford. I was just saying Nydus play is a good idea -- treat your army like T mech. Abuse the immobility. I CAN whittle down a skytoss army, but I can't remax and finish it off when you have 10 stargates and 5 bases. However, if I take out your main, it opens a huge window where I won't have to worry about carrier/mothership etc. Nydus isn't "standard", but the more common overlord drops would be just as good (albeit vulnerable to Phoenix)
Overlord drops I think would be better (more health, armor, and less "eggs in one basket", if you will). I'm generally pretty paranoid of nydus worms, so I check for them all the time with Skytoss builds, but I do recognize they are quite effective if Protoss isn't expecting one in his base.
Also, I would generally just go for more infestors than corruptors. Just me, a stylistic thing, but corruptors don't actually do all that much damage; I like having just enough to tank damage and not much more.
On July 30 2012 03:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Revival just crushed this in his playhem game ~5minutes ago. Early hydra/ling/roach into the third, expanded a lot, built up a muta count while counter attacking with lings each time toss moved out sniping buildings + probes, also using mutas.
ended with the toss doing 1 last desperation push with all his VRs + mothership, Revival sat back and let it arrive at his queens + muta ball. GG
Not to bash pros or anything (they are pros after all), but if you open stargate and ever lose to mutas, you just plain suck, nothing else to it. Queens are a smart response. Mutas are a great response if and only if your opponent derps and completely forgets about phoenixes.
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I think that mutas are a good idea against this style. Not for an army, but to harass the mineral line and force more static defenses. Mutalisk good unit! But honestly I don't know how to kill an air "deathball"
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I started looking through replays yesterday, then got sidetracked. Here's a couple examples of the style that I've been using:
http://drop.sc/231317
This is a good example of pressure. I skip the Zealot in this game and then use a couple stalkers to kill lings and a queen, and delay the third considerably while I wall up at my natural. The phoenix harass was mediocre; if I had been focused I could have done more. Nevertheless, everything I did was very cost-efficient through the phoenix harass, even though I made some macro mistakes due to my inexperience with this build (I seem to supply block myself at 68 or 76 often because this is the time when I'm normally microing air units). The zerg probably could have pushed me a few minutes earler, but I'm pretty sure it would have traded with my army and then the next warp-in or two would have stabilized me with a way better economy. I think he was waiting for a critical mass to attack with, but because of the stalker harass and then the phoenix harass, his injects suffered due to planting creep tumors and getting picked off.
Here's another one, which I played this morning:
http://drop.sc/231318
This is an example of a rougher beginning game, where I'm caught napping and a bunch of lings show up at my front door. I micro to save my stalker at the cost of a probe, and then the second one cleans things up. Since I've screwed up the opening a bit, I just transpose into a defensive expansion with an immediate forge and cannon, as well as sentries. He ends up making a lot of speedlings (instead of droning) to try to break my front and I don't miss forcefields, so the worker count evens out. I notice he still hasn't taken his natural third for a long time, so I tech up and take a slower third and have a delayed phoenix harass. In fact, it's so delayed, I run into a bunch of infestors and lose some phoenixes...however, he does lose a lot of energy at this point. If I had planned things out, I think warping in a ton of chargelots would have killed a lot at that point while he had basically no fungals left and a bunch of lings and anti-air as his defense. (Something to think about for future games). I think if he had dropped infested terrans here, all of the Phoenixes would have died, but that timing window for some chargelot warp-ins would have been even more fatal. One way or another, I think this is a pretty good example of how many fungals it actually takes to kill Phoenixes without something else to DPS them where they sit. Phoenixes are not armored units so they take only 30 damage per fungal...which is 6 fungals in total. That's a pretty big energy commitment and if you mess up, the phoenixes can lift an infestor or two and get a kill in.
Either way, neither of us exactly played perfectly, but we ended up playing a long game and fully teching out. There are are some points in time when I take engagements with the plan to recall home, but I donate some carriers. I also decide to engage an air army while it's over a cliff at the 12oclock over a really stupid base location. Still, even though that wasn't perfect, I was able to gradually whittle down the zerg's gas units and keep pressure on throughout the majority of the game. Eventually, he had a ton of brood lords and a decent corruptor count, but my chargelot/immortal composition killed off a lot of infestors in some fights and I tactically sniped a bunch off outside of fights when I had the chance. I end the game by pumping Phoenixes out of 5 stargates, then microing those to kill off his corruptors and eventually enough broods for him to tap out.
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So this is the style that I use, right now. I think it's only going to get better when I have a better understanding of some of the fights I can and can't take, considering that this is a pretty different composition than usual protoss unit mixes. I know Sage used to do the whole Phoenix/Chargelot thing a while back, and I've been trying to find some of those games to get a better grasp on what else I can do. I'm playing far from perfectly in these games, so I feel like there is always something I could improve to get me out of a rough situation or to damage the zerg in some way. Almost all of my success and failure has to do with the fact that the style is all about active units, which demand as much focus as possible.
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On July 30 2012 03:58 HelioSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 00:49 Mavvie wrote:On July 29 2012 19:37 Rimak wrote:On July 29 2012 05:13 Mavvie wrote:On July 29 2012 05:05 Nyast wrote:On July 29 2012 03:40 ineversmile wrote:
EDIT: The whole composition I go for in this matchup is Carriers and ranged Phoenixes with a Mothership and +3 air weapons. I actually don't even stop making Phoenixes in most of my games. So I'm still doing Skytoss, but it's a late game plan so I'm not shoehorned into massing crappy Void Rays or eventually abandoning the skies and going into pure chargelot. I think this is smoother in terms of playing to your resources (building mineral-heavy armies early and gas-heavy armies later), map control, and dealing with aggression because it's an approach that isn't built around cutting corners. You make me curious, do you have replays ? The problem I see with phoenixes is the same than voidrays: fungal pwns them. Do you spread/harass with them in small groups ? As a zerg player i can imagine someone doing MASSIVE hit-and-runs on my overlords + drones...or he could split them into groups of 3 or 4 and go overlord/queen hunting, being super annoying and causing terrible economic damage. But I feel that you would simply die to a corruptor/ling timing with 3-4 infestors. We all know that phoenix, motherships, and carriers suck against corruptors, and lings would be good for multi-progned aggression through drops,nydus,runbys, etc. So basically you are saying that this will die to ling-corruptor-infestor-nydus timing? Yep, totally standard play for zerg. Zerg doesnt have standard play vs mass air. If I see more than 3 Phoenix, I'm throwing down an infestation pit and spire if I don't have both already. Then it'll be about 2.5 minutes until I'm at your door with a few infestors, a bunch of corruptors, and however many lings I can afford. I was just saying Nydus play is a good idea -- treat your army like T mech. Abuse the immobility. I CAN whittle down a skytoss army, but I can't remax and finish it off when you have 10 stargates and 5 bases. However, if I take out your main, it opens a huge window where I won't have to worry about carrier/mothership etc. Nydus isn't "standard", but the more common overlord drops would be just as good (albeit vulnerable to Phoenix) Overlord drops I think would be better (more health, armor, and less "eggs in one basket", if you will). I'm generally pretty paranoid of nydus worms, so I check for them all the time with Skytoss builds, but I do recognize they are quite effective if Protoss isn't expecting one in his base. Also, I would generally just go for more infestors than corruptors. Just me, a stylistic thing, but corruptors don't actually do all that much damage; I like having just enough to tank damage and not much more. Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 03:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Revival just crushed this in his playhem game ~5minutes ago. Early hydra/ling/roach into the third, expanded a lot, built up a muta count while counter attacking with lings each time toss moved out sniping buildings + probes, also using mutas.
ended with the toss doing 1 last desperation push with all his VRs + mothership, Revival sat back and let it arrive at his queens + muta ball. GG
Not to bash pros or anything (they are pros after all), but if you open stargate and ever lose to mutas, you just plain suck, nothing else to it. Queens are a smart response. Mutas are a great response if and only if your opponent derps and completely forgets about phoenixes.
You would have needed to have seen the game. Revival went mutas and made it work. The toss had to keep making voidrays per the build after revival put heavy pressure roach/hydra/ling on the third early on, the mutas came as a switch after 8+ VRs and caused too much damage along with lings to the probes to allow for phoenix response (also denied third continually). I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it... Just because you open stargate does not mean you automatically suck for losing to some muta play at some point in the game. He didn't open phoenix, he open voidray mass per this build, and mutas came later after he was no longer really producing much off the stargates except for voids due to what happened earlier on. I guess it really depends on doing damage to the third+economy using counter attacks and multiprong efficiently, but it can go either way.
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Hmm...so he has a production building that can make both Phoenixes and Void Rays. He's eventually getting Fleet Beacon tech because he's upgrading air weapons. Phoenixes are more costly per minute of production that Void Rays, so they take as many or less Stargates than Void Rays to be produced. So getting ranged Phoenixes to counter Mutas is really, really easy to do. What's the problem here? This sounds like someone saying "He built gateways and a Cybernetics Core, but he can't get Zealots because he has the tech for Stalkers. Wtf? I mean, there are good timings for mutas, but the pro obviously didn't know what he was doing if he lost to mutas as a late game deathball (which is what you made it sound like). Who was the toss in this game? Better yet, link us a replay/VOD!
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I'm with ineversmile on this one. Hard for me to judge without having seen the game in question, but if you're doing a Skytoss build you have at least one stargate and a fleet beacon, not to mention air upgrades probably on the way or already done, depending on the stage of the game. Mutas should only be able to do minimal damage before a small squad of phoenixes can be fielded to nullify their harass.
Not that I frequently lose with Skytoss openers to begin with, but I literally can not remember the last time I lost to mutas.
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EPT
