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On July 21 2012 17:37 AndySCWilson wrote:
A lot of people have mentioned a weakness against banelings - are there any "dead giveaway" things that I can scout that can alert me to grab an early gas and go baneling.
Also around what time should a baneling timing hit?
A baneling bust usually requires a minimum of 6 banelings, which is 150 gas. Then you also figure in the 6 lings that get morphed into banes, and then there's the actual lings that follow in during the bust. So when you're scouting, you should be checking drone counts, gas timings, and for that third base. If you can't get a probe in there, you need to make a guess. It take a couple minutes to get the gas to set up a baneling bust, and that's not even considering zergling speed (if it's used).
A 2-hatch baneling bust takes about as long to set up as zergling speed does, which is ~3 minutes from the time the extractor is finished. A 3-hatch one will take longer, since 3 hatch before gas obviously means delayed gas. If you see droning and no ling speed, you're probably not getting busted. If you see no third base and lings heading out, your opponent is probably preparing a bust. Only 2 kinds of units can bust you at tier 1: Banelings and Roaches. Prepare your front door for both of them and you should be fine. And if you're having trouble scouting, go out there with a Zealot or two and poke his front door with a unit that's more resilient than a probe--information is key to defeating any kind of aggression.
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I mean from the zerg point of view - what are some things that a zerg player can look for to see if the protoss player is going Skytoss, are there any dead giveaway signs that scream Skytoss that comes early enough for me to get gas and banes on time?
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On July 22 2012 12:07 AndySCWilson wrote:
I mean from the zerg point of view - what are some things that a zerg player can look for to see if the protoss player is going Skytoss, are there any dead giveaway signs that scream Skytoss that comes early enough for me to get gas and banes on time?
Scout, scout and scout some more in the early game. If you see 2 stargates early you can assume with some certainty that he is going skytoss. I would say if you see that fleet beacon early then I would assume with 95% certainty he is doing some variant of the skytoss build. I'm not sure of exact timings but if you scout early and feel comfortable enough with assuming he's going skytoss, you might have enough time to bust him.
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On July 18 2012 17:10 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:36 thesupamuug wrote:
If you are keeping up with your macro (money low and using chrono), you cant support 3 s gates off 2 bases with upgrades constantly producing. ESP if your opponent is going muta, phx make very fast, the range upgrade will take precedence over the 3rd sg. Even if you do get your 3rd as fast as possible, mutas will be hitting about the same time as the 3rd is finishing assuming your MS is out. So maybe inveresmile is MUCH better than I am, but I have never been able to constantly produce out of 3 sg, have a MS, have a 3rd going, have 5 phx, and have my range upgrade by the time muta hits, which is around 10 mins for any competant z. But with 2 sg you can have just as many phx with saturated bases. Maybe Im wrong but I'd love to see a rep with all of this happening before 10 mins I have no idea where our skill levels are, but I neglected to mention a couple of things: 1. I don't get any weapons upgrades until my third is established, I have a Mothership and those Phoenixes, and I have 3 Stargates pumping units. I don't care about investing into those upgrades until I have units to use the upgrades, since I can't spare the gas while powering up. If you're going for a gateway army, building gates takes only minerals and therefore you can tech while you do that. But if you're building stargates and a Mothership and all of your units cost ~50 gas per food, upgrades can wait. Being behind in upgrades is fine if you plan to boost them later on, when you're safe. 2. You can't support 3 constantly boosted stargates pumping Phoenixes off of 4 gases. Generally speaking, you can afford one stargate's worth of boosted Phoenix per base. A gas geyser with 3 workers produces 121.15 gpm (gas per ingame minute). If you constantly pump Phoenixes out of one stargate and you boost it once per minute, 2 of them build in exactly 60 seconds (35+35 for build times -10 for chronoboost), which means you're spending 200 gas per minute at that rate. Between 3 Stargates if you boost that often, it's 600 gas per minute, which is barely supportable off of 5 geysers because 121.15 gpm*5=605.75 gpm. I personally try to get my 5th geyser to finish right as the third base finishes so I can saturate it ASAP, and then I get the 6th a little later because I know from the math that 5 geysers can support 3 Stargates when they're producing as fast as possible, so I use my minerals to do other things at that point--usually cannoning and walling. And my goal is to get the 2nd and 3rd stargates to line up with my third, which lines up with the 5th gas, which leads to being able to support all that production simultaneously. Makes sense, right? 3. Since you can't afford Range and 3 Stargates on boosted Phoenix detail, it's reasonable to assume that you get Pulse Chrystals first, then go all-in on producing Phoenixes with your gas. If your opponent half-asses his mutas, 8 stock Phoenixes will kill all of them in a lopsided trade with some decent micro. If he commits, though, you want range. Since mutas take 33 seconds to build and then additional time to move across the map to join the flock, you can stall the first group of mutas while you boost range twice. Range takes 90 seconds to research, and if you boost it perfectly 3 times that shortens to 60 seconds. However, boosting that perfectly is basically a joke when you're microing phoenixes against mutas while macroing, so assume you boost it twice and knock it down to 70 in-game seconds...stall for that long and you can kill all the mutas with that timing. If you have trouble boosting your stuff quickly while microing, put your Fleet Beacon next to a nexus and hit the backspace key a couple of times to find it so you can boost it faster. If you put your Phoenixes on hotkey 2, for example, this means Back-Back-C-Click-2-2 to find your Beacon, boost it, and then select and zoom in on your Phoenixes again. Your mouse shouldn't have to move very far across the screen. You could also use location hotkeys. Setting up one of those right over your stargates is a pretty good way to jump back and forth between chronoboosting and fighting.
All the info you provided is awesome and 100% accurate, thanks (no trouble w/boosts and I have phx on hotkey 2)! Yet the issue was not any of that, but the fact that there is no way you can have all of that happening by the time z has mutes in your mineral line...as i see you are a diamond like myself, I wonder how you are actually in diamond if you can do all that you say by the time mutes hit. I have been watching fellow poster Nyast's stream/casts, and he does almost exactly what I do. 1 sg to fb to MS, starts 3rd at about 11 min. Then adds 2 sg and gates. So do you start MS after your 3rd starts? I try to play it safe and always start MS before 3rd...but I think this is map dependent. Are there any cues you look for to start 3rd so early and know youre safe?
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On July 22 2012 12:07 AndySCWilson wrote:
I mean from the zerg point of view - what are some things that a zerg player can look for to see if the protoss player is going Skytoss, are there any dead giveaway signs that scream Skytoss that comes early enough for me to get gas and banes on time?
Like people have said, 2 sg should mean a lot of air units. But since I dont know what level you are at, so some ppl are so bad they might build stuff for no reason. A completely blocked nat most likely means air. If you stay on top of scouting w/ overseers/changelings and use slings, should be no prob. Anything over 3 vrays + any number of phx you should be super suspicious. As someone who plays the skytoss style, the best way I feel is to have a lot of s lings to deny 3rd/4th as soon as cannons start and always use overseers to the best of your ablity. Even then, it is still in question what comp to use if you see skytoss 
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On July 22 2012 15:19 thesupamuug wrote:
All the info you provided is awesome and 100% accurate, thanks (no trouble w/boosts and I have phx on hotkey 2)! Yet the issue was not any of that, but the fact that there is no way you can have all of that happening by the time z has mutes in your mineral line...as i see you are a diamond like myself, I wonder how you are actually in diamond if you can do all that you say by the time mutes hit. I have been watching fellow poster Nyast's stream/casts, and he does almost exactly what I do. 1 sg to fb to MS, starts 3rd at about 11 min. Then adds 2 sg and gates. So do you start MS after your 3rd starts? I try to play it safe and always start MS before 3rd...but I think this is map dependent. Are there any cues you look for to start 3rd so early and know youre safe?
I'm extremely inconsistent. When I play well, I crush a bunch of masters players in a streak. When I play poorly, I tank the hell out of my ranking and hidden ranking. I play a pretty hefty amount of ladder, but I don't have enough practice partners to sit there and practice one match-up for a dozen games in a row. Plus, I'm basically stuck in a rut where I'm getting hit by the weirdest of cheeses, and there's basically no concept of a metagame because everyone just does completely strategies all the time. It's horrible for practice and I really need to go seek some more regular practice partners, because that's basically all I would need to get into masters. I played Warcraft 3 for 8 years and played it pretty competitively for the last 3, so I have unit control and minimap awareness pretty well down; I just need to play more non-ladder practice to improve my consistency. I also have a major problem with PvP these days because I have been overhauling my style to deal with all the early Stargate play, so I'm losing a lot of mirror matches just for the sake of learning.
The build I use from a FFE is to go 2 Gas-->Stargate-->2 more gas-->Fleet Beacon+Void Ray-->4-5 Phoenix. I don't Macro Nexus unless I'm Hatch-blocked. I get the Mothership as soon as the Beacon is done, and I only boost my Stargate twice to get some more defense (the Void Ray) and scouting (the first Phoenix) quickly. While the Mothership builds, I go take my third and park the Void Ray over it. Then, as my Phoenixes are sharking around, I get 2 more Stargates. I don't cut probes to take the third, but I do take it pretty early because the Void will kill 100+minerals worth of units if it gets attacked, so it's not really a big risk if it gets canceled. I need gas more than minerals at that stage anyways, so it's fine to invest like that.
Some adaptations I use:
-If I need to defend a Roach/Ling bust, I nix all the Phoenixes beyond the first one for more Void Rays, and boost those instead of Mothership. Generally speaking, I use Void Rays only to cancel hatcheries, or to defend a base from non-anti-air units, like it's a floating cannon. I think Void Rays are crappy air units (by design; the charge mechanic is just stupid IMHO), but even a crappy air unit is good when your opponent can't shoot up. I still get that one Phoenix just for the sake of scouting and bullying overlords, though; it always pays for itself. I want to see what kind of droning and teching (or lack thereof) is going on.
-If the zerg makes a lot of stuff to cancel my third, I cancel the third and try to kill as much with my air units as possible. If the third gets canceled, it costs me just 100 minerals and a couple minutes of mining at the third, but if they send out non-drone units to die, it costs a lot more for the Zerg. In the meantime, I do counterattacks with my Phoenixes and attack him where he is weak...sometimes I bring a Void along to cancel a hatch. Either he loses almost all of his queens and I kill a lot of flying cows, or he makes a bunch of anti-air instead of drones and more attacking units.
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On July 22 2012 15:19 thesupamuug wrote:
All the info you provided is awesome and 100% accurate, thanks (no trouble w/boosts and I have phx on hotkey 2)! Yet the issue was not any of that, but the fact that there is no way you can have all of that happening by the time z has mutes in your mineral line...as i see you are a diamond like myself, I wonder how you are actually in diamond if you can do all that you say by the time mutes hit. I have been watching fellow poster Nyast's stream/casts, and he does almost exactly what I do. 1 sg to fb to MS, starts 3rd at about 11 min. Then adds 2 sg and gates. So do you start MS after your 3rd starts? I try to play it safe and always start MS before 3rd...but I think this is map dependent. Are there any cues you look for to start 3rd so early and know youre safe?
I'm assuming this is happening while you're on 2-base, since you should be able to handle mutas easily when you're on 3. I find the mutas can't engage your mothership and 5 or so void-rays if you use the voids to target fire. (The voids and couple of phoenix you squeeze out during the battle will kill all mutas before the mothership dies, although it might be very close.) If the zerg dances around your main/nat trying to do economic damage instead of engaging, then you can drop cannons and dance around with your voids/MS/few phoenixes that pop as best you can as you chrono out more phoenixes. If you really can't handle it splitting attention between two bases until 4-6 phoenix get out, then move all probes at your main to your nat, and park the MS there. If you're worried about mutas killing your stargates, then do what I do and place one SG in your nat, and one SG on the high ground very close to the nat, with a cannon next to it. Then park the MS close enough to drift over and save either SG. I've played about 40 games with this style, and I've never lost to mutas. (I play mid-high diamond PvZ, if you're wondering about my rank.)
EDIT: on a side-note, if you didn't notice from the above, I go SG, fleet beacon, SG, 1-3 voids, MS, pressure. The MS isn't too incredibly delayed, and even if you delayed the voids to speed up MS production, I think you'd still probably be okay. You should have some idea if z has some -super- fast muta pressure coming -- he won't have a third base... You are scouting for a third at ~4:30-5:00, right? If you don't see one by 5:00, you should probably be delaying your third to get more units ASAP. Additionally, an early phoenix scout should reveal his plans...
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Ok, Fogetaboudit, here's a loss when I went skytoss on Daybreak where I can't really see what I did fundamentally wrong ( he was master 1200, so good player I guess ):
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-267795.jpg)
Basically, he took a blind 4th at 9', and when he scouted the build, just went for a mass roachs/lings push. At that very moment I'm taking my third and my mothership comes out, so I'm able to hold.
I lose a voidray to 2 queens when he tries to establish his fourth, cause I stupidly thought that without creep there was no way queens could arrive in time. Guess I was wrong 
After his attack I immediately counter with 2 voidrays to attempt to snippe his fourth, but corruptors are already out. Gg.
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What is your third timing?
I don't see why you can't just try to throw it up around 8:30 - 9
You are poking with your first Void Ray but he has rallied his army across the map. Instead of using your Void ray for defense its just attacking an idle hatchery. Every unit is critical for defense at the start. You also make 2 extra gateways and 3 zealots instead of 4 cannons. again, early efficiency is king. You have 3 unpowered cannons due to an artosis pylon.
This is all very basic analysis...
4 bases against 2 is not acceptable, so from this point on you are pretty lost as long as he continues to trade. You should have held much cleaner if you are going to stay on 2 base. I think the amount of damage you took is acceptable if you have 3 nexus because after stabilization you have lots more chrono/patches/probe production.
Spending gas on sentries is not good if you are just going to lose them for free at 14:45. Everything you have is just sitting at the third, so he engages your cannons at the natural by themselves. And then engages your small/midsized army while its naked.
Don't like making 3 stargates before taking the third...
IDK like he played well against your style, maybe it's a soft counter, maybe it's not. This replay is certainly not proof of a hard counter because I think the execution/build order/decision making has a lot of room to improve.
Also you spent gas on twilight council kinda early and float a lot of gas in general. Just food for thought. I know you like switching into Templar but you need a very strong air core before doing this, imo.
As always, thanks for the replay
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On July 22 2012 22:09 Fogetaboudit wrote:
What is your third timing?
I don't see why you can't just try to throw it up around 8:30 - 9
I usually try to take my third around 10'. Sometimes a bit earlier, sometimes a bit later. But in my experience, if you do it too early it fails. 9' is the timing most zergs produce lings/roaches in a standard macro game for defense, so they'll be active around the map and poke. I very rarely succeed at early thirds, especially on a map such as daybreak..
On July 22 2012 22:09 Fogetaboudit wrote:
You are poking with your first Void Ray but he has rallied his army across the map. Instead of using your Void ray for defense its just attacking an idle hatchery. Every unit is critical for defense at the start. You also make 2 extra gateways and 3 zealots instead of 4 cannons. again, early efficiency is king. You have 3 unpowered cannons due to an artosis pylon.
That idle hatchery is his fourth.. in the context of this game, it was so early that it seemed to me to be critical to delay it. Besides, the roaches were already streaming on the map, and voidrays are slow: I knew it wouldn't be back in time to help so I let it continue attack the hatchery. Maybe that was a mistake ( well, losing it definitely was ), but honestly, in the event I had pulled back and was able to defend perfectly and establish my third, I'm not sure I would have been in a better position with a Zerg who got a 9' fourth and a fast spire. In fact, he could make more corruptors than I could handle.
This is the main thing I wanted to demonstrate in that game, what I think is the flaw in this strat: Zerg takes a fast fourth and a fast spire, you're forced to defend / delay your third, and by the time you've successfully defended, he already has more corruptors out than you have voids. THAT is what worries me. The fact that I took serious damage in that game is kind of secondary, cause even if I didn't, I think I was screwed.
I won't address the rest of your comments since I don't think they're too relevant. In that game, I messed up, I took my third at 12' as I was too busy defending ( note that he could have denied my potential 10' third with his roaches instead of attacking at the natural. It would still have been 4 bases vs 2.. ). My feeling is that such a fast fourth + denying third + fast corruptors = gg
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On July 23 2012 03:38 Nyast wrote:
This is the main thing I wanted to demonstrate in that game, what I think is the flaw in this strat: Zerg takes a fast fourth and a fast spire, you're forced to defend / delay your third, and by the time you've successfully defended, he already has more corruptors out than you have voids. THAT is what worries me.
I didn't watch the replay (can't atm), but I feel like there's probably a hole in his defense if he has 4 bases, fast lair and fast spire. Might his play be susceptible to a strong 2-SG push with ~3-5 chrono'd voids and a couple of phoenix (delaying the mothership's completion by 2-mins or so)? (Just drop a few cannons to defend your nat. while you push.) Alternatively, after scouting his fast spire, maybe you could drop four DTs in his main to snipe the spire, and then send a couple of zealots and a DT to his fourth?
On a side-note, one thing I've started doing is dropping pylons and cannons -before- a nexus at my third. It helps me get cannons up 400 minerals sooner, after which it's pretty easy to take the nexus, if a few voids are parked overhead.
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On July 21 2012 07:46 trbot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 03:32 Oboeman wrote:
Make sure that he never gets to build a nexus without sitting his mothership ontop of it to cloak it. He can't take a 3rd base with only void rays, you will kill it and burrow a ling. Never let him finish cannons without being spotted, use lings to deny every attempt unless he brings all of his air units over to defend it while it builds.
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I've never let a pure skytoss player get a 4th base.
This. I believe this is the reason you win. If I get a fourth, I add high templar, and feedback+a few archons makes your life very difficult. I've had some pretty difficult games where zergs made it very difficult to take my fourth.
Yes, exactly.
However, it's not like they don't try to take a 4th base. They do try, and I don't let them.
I'm not going all-in trying to end the game before their 4th base either. I'm still shooting for a longer game, but they have a very hard time taking their 4th base against me.
for those of you who are getting your 3rd base before your mothership is out... how?
Is zerg just choosing to not attack it with zerglings? I go cancel your 3rd with speedlings while pylons and cannons are warping in if you have no ground units, even if you are sitting on top of it with void rays. Are your zerg opponents just letting you get it for free?
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On July 23 2012 05:56 Oboeman wrote:
for those of you who are getting your 3rd base before your mothership is out... how?
Is zerg just choosing to not attack it with zerglings? I go cancel your 3rd with speedlings while pylons and cannons are warping in if you have no ground units, even if you are sitting on top of it with void rays. Are your zerg opponents just letting you get it for free?
I usually just get my third after MS is out (third at ~10:30), after some void-pressure. However, recently I've been playing with the idea of placing early pylons + cannons (~7-8 mins) at my third without even dropping a nexus. Then, when it's time to take my third a few minutes later, it's easy. I haven't done this much, so this is only theorycrafting, but while zergs can theoretically deny my pylons and cannons, (1) in terms of the metagame, few zerg check for stuff at the third that early, and (2) if it looks like you're going to try to deny my third then, instead of harrassing, I can park my voids over my third and start killing anything that would prevent me from building pylons and cannons, chronoing a zealot or two to help if needed. If you commit much more than a dozen lings at ~7-8 mins, you're really cutting into your mid-game macro. If you don't, I'll probably be able to take a fast third.
I've rarely had zergs do a really good job of denying the third, but if you -can- deny it until 12mins+, as long as you didn't invest -too- much, toss is probably dead. I had one masters zerg deny it with stupidly fast hydralisks and overseer. (He knew the strat was coming, and I'm not really that good--just mid diamond.)
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On July 23 2012 05:56 Oboeman wrote:
for those of you who are getting your 3rd base before your mothership is out... how?
Is zerg just choosing to not attack it with zerglings? I go cancel your 3rd with speedlings while pylons and cannons are warping in if you have no ground units, even if you are sitting on top of it with void rays. Are your zerg opponents just letting you get it for free?
Like, I've just been planting it under 1-2 zealots and 1 Voidray. If Zerg is going for crazy econ/tech then I can keep up. If they have a lot of speedlings, then they have to attack at the perfect timing, focus the nexus, and force a cancel, while losing units in the process. I'll just cancel (sometimes I don't even have to, depending on the micro) and then make it again behind another production cycle.
Also, high econ baneling busts are NOT scary.
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On July 23 2012 08:58 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 05:56 Oboeman wrote:
for those of you who are getting your 3rd base before your mothership is out... how?
Is zerg just choosing to not attack it with zerglings? I go cancel your 3rd with speedlings while pylons and cannons are warping in if you have no ground units, even if you are sitting on top of it with void rays. Are your zerg opponents just letting you get it for free? Like, I've just been planting it under 1-2 zealots and 1 Voidray. If Zerg is going for crazy econ/tech then I can keep up. If they have a lot of speedlings, then they have to attack at the perfect timing, focus the nexus, and force a cancel, while losing units in the process. I'll just cancel (sometimes I don't even have to, depending on the micro) and then make it again behind another production cycle. Also, high econ baneling busts are NOT scary.
Ok they shouldn't let you get your 3rd like that. It doesn't take many lings to slow it down, and it's almost always worth it if you can stop a base with only lings. It's normal for the zerg player to make a round of lings after hitting 60 drones, just to ensure you have map control and lets you get some scouting, and it's just good to have. Especially against stargate, when the overlords get taken out, it's crucial to have lings out for map vision. so i make the lings anyway, and then it turns out that they get to kill a pylon and 2 zealots.
Starting the pylon before nexus to get the cannons up faster is a good idea, but I don't know if it'd be enough. Do you have lots of spare minerals at this point in the build?
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On July 23 2012 09:32 Oboeman wrote:
Starting the pylon before nexus to get the cannons up faster is a good idea, but I don't know if it'd be enough. Do you have lots of spare minerals at this point in the build?
I played around a bit in YABOT, and it seems reasonable if you only go one stargate. I tend to go 2-SG pressure, so I have fewer mins to work with. If people start completely preventing my third when I go 2-SG I guess I'll have to switch to one. I wound up sending 1 zealot and a probe to build pylons+cannons at my third at 6:30, and I can get 3-4 cannons up by 7:30, with a second zealot to help guard. (Once I have 3-4 cannons building I actually send my zealots to the zerg's third to scout and distract him.) To be clear, I make a bunch of cannons before the nexus, since I care more about holding my nexus than whether it finishes at 8:30 or 10:00. My suspicion is that's enough to hold anything that a zerg will send if he's not really dipping into his macro, and I can reasonably continue the build, and still have the MS pop at a reasonable time (I believe it was ~11-12 mins). From my limited experience with this variant, I seem to have a couple of voids, a couple of zealots, and 12 cannons+finished third at about 10 mins, with full saturation on main+nat, and half saturation on third.
My build for this variant isn't terribly well thought through, but my feeling is that a good player should be able to refine it. If you wait for 60 drones to make a bunch of units, I don't think you can hit the third before maybe 8:30, by which time 8 cannons can be up. I don't know though, someone should flesh it out. I'm not good enough to try to make it work versus masters players that know what's coming -- I just take the occasional game off the unsuspecting low master. =)
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On July 22 2012 21:17 Nyast wrote:Ok, Fogetaboudit, here's a loss when I went skytoss on Daybreak where I can't really see what I did fundamentally wrong ( he was master 1200, so good player I guess ): Basically, he took a blind 4th at 9', and when he scouted the build, just went for a mass roachs/lings push. At that very moment I'm taking my third and my mothership comes out, so I'm able to hold. I lose a voidray to 2 queens when he tries to establish his fourth, cause I stupidly thought that without creep there was no way queens could arrive in time. Guess I was wrong After his attack I immediately counter with 2 voidrays to attempt to snippe his fourth, but corruptors are already out. Gg.
Your wall-off was suspect. Your opponent could have executed a really simple baneling bust and killed you easily, if he wanted. Personally, I think you should futher wall-off the secondary ramp by the rocks, like you would with Cloud Kingdom. One way or another, you need to build a better defensive position at your natural because it's unacceptable to lose to roach/ling busts coming that late when you're only on 2 bases.
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On July 23 2012 06:19 trbot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 05:56 Oboeman wrote:
for those of you who are getting your 3rd base before your mothership is out... how?
Is zerg just choosing to not attack it with zerglings? I go cancel your 3rd with speedlings while pylons and cannons are warping in if you have no ground units, even if you are sitting on top of it with void rays. Are your zerg opponents just letting you get it for free? I usually just get my third after MS is out (third at ~10:30), after some void-pressure. However, recently I've been playing with the idea of placing early pylons + cannons (~7-8 mins) at my third without even dropping a nexus. Then, when it's time to take my third a few minutes later, it's easy. I haven't done this much, so this is only theorycrafting, but while zergs can theoretically deny my pylons and cannons, (1) in terms of the metagame, few zerg check for stuff at the third that early, and (2) if it looks like you're going to try to deny my third then, instead of harrassing, I can park my voids over my third and start killing anything that would prevent me from building pylons and cannons, chronoing a zealot or two to help if needed. If you commit much more than a dozen lings at ~7-8 mins, you're really cutting into your mid-game macro. If you don't, I'll probably be able to take a fast third. I've rarely had zergs do a really good job of denying the third, but if you -can- deny it until 12mins+, as long as you didn't invest -too- much, toss is probably dead. I had one masters zerg deny it with stupidly fast hydralisks and overseer. (He knew the strat was coming, and I'm not really that good--just mid diamond.)
Hey so I'm just a plat, but if they have hydras parked at your third to prevent a third, why dont you just fly voids over to main base and put your voids in there ass, and then mothership recall as soon as your fleet is in any danger? if they hydras are near your base, you should be easily able to go in snipe hydra tech, infest pit, and main lair/hive, and then maybe a mining base too. Hydras are sooo damn slow
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On July 24 2012 02:47 emaster wrote:
Hey so I'm just a plat, but if they have hydras parked at your third to prevent a third, why dont you just fly voids over to main base and put your voids in there ass, and then mothership recall as soon as your fleet is in any danger? if they hydras are near your base, you should be easily able to go in snipe hydra tech, infest pit, and main lair/hive, and then maybe a mining base too. Hydras are sooo damn slow
That's a good thought, but:
(1) his hydra push was big enough to flatten my natural if I sent my air units out (he was about 150 supply at 12min with just drones+queens+hydras, and almost maxed by 14min, whereas I had MS, one carrier, 6-7 voids and maybe 10 cannons)
(2) he had a creep highway all the way to my base courtesy of several queens, taking the gold, and overlord creep
There are definitely things I could have done better in the game (take faster third, remake cannons and blocking gateways faster after his hydras busted my nat, save MS during that bust). I just got (pretty heavily) outplayed. He was a good player (mid-masters, been masters since season 2) and he knew what was coming lol.
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Sorry for switching the topic a bit, but what do you do when zerg goes for a baneling bust before the mothership is out? I'm not sure what the best response would be.
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EPT
